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| anyone know the main difference between these lures?
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Posts: 184
| seeing that all my lappers paint have had issues falling off, theres a start. both have very light top coat protective finishes and prefer the wiley's 10 to 1 over the gotcha's. all of my wileys could be put in the water brand new out of the box and run over 5 mph w/o any problems every time. wileys have way better hooks on them also. both run very similar and i seem to do better on wiley's than lappers but i have a friend that is the other way. he does way better on gotcha's than wileys. i know that wiley's were out well before the gotcha's and think they (terry from lapper lures) copied many aspects of the wiley bait. both are good fish catchers but imo the wileys will last alittle longer. now if you compair either on of these to a musky rocket- they don't even compare. i have owned dozens of gotcha's and many more wileys and they can't hold a flame to a musky rocket. better hooks, 100x better protective clear coat, screw eyes that don't get bent after every fish and need retuning and imo very nice paint jobs and no i don't fish for them or get anything for recommending those lures they are simply the best crankbait made. they hold up alot longer than a wiley or lapper which i almost consider disposable lures the way wood falls off them, even some of the lures that have never got hit are all torn up and yes the hooks are all t'ed. imo a wiley is better than a lapper but neither are the best made imo. wiley's have a great rep but thats cause dale has been making and selling tons since the 1980's and they were the best for a long time but times have changed and people are building better baits.
Edited by zach2626 8/2/2010 11:16 AM
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | zach2626 - 8/2/2010 12:13 PM
seeing that all my lappers paint have had issues falling off, theres a start. both have very light top coat protective finishes and prefer the wiley's 10 to 1 over the gotcha's. all of my wileys could be put in the water brand new out of the box and run over 5 mph w/o any problems every time. wileys have way better hooks on them also. both run very similar and i seem to do better on wiley's than lappers but i have a friend that is the other way. he does way better on gotcha's than wileys. i know that wiley's were out well before the gotcha's and think they (terry from lapper lures) copied many aspects of the wiley bait. both are good fish catchers but imo the wileys will last alittle longer. now if you compair either on of these to a musky rocket- they don't even compare. i have owned dozens of gotcha's and many more wileys and they can't hold a flame to a musky rocket. better hooks, 100x better protective clear coat, screw eyes that don't get bent after every fish and need retuning and imo very nice paint jobs and no i don't fish for them or get anything for recommending those lures they are simply the best crankbait made. they hold up alot longer than a wiley or lapper which i almost consider disposable lures the way wood falls off them, even some of the lures that have never got hit are all torn up and yes the hooks are all t'ed. imo a wiley is better than a lapper but neither are the best made imo. wiley's have a great rep but thats cause dale has been making and selling tons since the 1980's and they were the best for a long time but times have changed and people are building better baits.
I have had problems with both Wileys and Lappers. Paint problems with Lappers and screw eyes getting loose in Wileys. When I designed my Slashers I first solved both problems before offering the public my lure line. Lappers seem to be lacking sealer or are using an automotive based paint and top coat which cracks due to being brittle. Wood moves and brittle paint will not hold up when it does. Wiley makes so many baits that catch fish that most guys dont care when they start coming apart. One fix for Wileys is to epoxy in the screw eyes when they are brand new. Do that and they will last as long as ours do. We take the time to soak the inside of every hole with 30 minute epoxy. We use a .030 guitar string(wound) to rod the hole out after rolling it in epoxy. This soaks the wood around the threads and seals every screw eye in tight. With soft woods like cedar it is a must or you will have screw eye failure. Terminators are made of Silver birch and dont require this step but they also dont get bit as often as cedar baits do. W e tried getting away from cedar but you cant beat the productivity of lighter wood. Both Lappers and Wileys catch fish. If you like the way these lures run you can fix the problems. strip the lappers and repaint with water based acrylic and top coat with envirotex. Seal them first with oil based ZARS sanding sealer. Just glue the screw eyes on wileys and they hold up for years.
As far as hooks go we use lighter Eagle Claw hooks because they penetrate better and when we cut them it doesnt take a cutting torch to get through the shank. Carry extra hooks and cut the old ones. No one needs 4 and 6 X hooks for these 6 inch lures. Both Lappers and Wileys catch Fish as do Rocket mans terminators but none of them hold a candle to the Lokes. Our Slashers are in my opinion the bridge between the Lokes and the others. Lokes are simply the best built 6 inch wood crank on the planet. Now that John has passed away there is void there that needs to be filled. Wire thru cedar or Mahogany 6 inch lure that lasts for many years. It will be interesting to see if anyone steps up and does it. W e are making as good a cedar screw eye bait as can be built but even our Slashers are not as tough as Johns old Lokes. Lokes are still the best built (in my opinion) . Mike King ( Cedar Creek Lure Company) formerly Talonz. |
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Posts: 184
| now i wasn't talking about rocketmans terminators. i am talking about the musky rockets made by muskymaniacs in michigan and yes they do hold better than a loke or any other lure as i have owned including a few of your slashers in the past. they are made of cedar but have multiple coats of epoxy instead of envirotex. in the first tourney of the year my musky rockets got hit 5x compaired to 0 on the 6" slashers and 1 on a 6" wiley with all getting equal running time at chautauqua lake. i have 13 muskies on one 8" foiled perch musky rocket this year that looks almost brand new and the epoxy isn't even been punctured in any spot. sorry guys but no other bait can take the abuse these can and no screw eye problems on these. simply the best baits made and we could argue all day on this one. the slashers have nice action but have failed to put a fish in my boat just like the mordas mx series. look nice but simply don't get hit for me. i have owned almost every trolling lure made and have wasted alot of money on cheaply made plugs and these rockets are the only lure i would ever recommend. try them out if you think i am biased. to think about it i am biased since my only 50" musky in 12 years of trying came on a rocket this year. i am not lucky enough to fish lsc which is loaded w/ fish i am stuck in NY which gets pounded from opening day to the last day.
Edited by zach2626 8/2/2010 1:19 PM
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Envirotex is Epoxy ha ha ha . And if I put two coats on would be as durable. Never seen a Musky rocket. Must be a cool lure. I like Michigan built lures as Im from Michigan  I hope to see them at the Michigan Musky show. We will be there. No Srew eye lure will out last a Loke sorry. Unless Rockets are wire through they will fail in time. All Cedar Lures are softer than Mahogany and will eventually get eaten through even with two coats of epoxy(envirotex) . I put on one because they weigh less and have better action with one coat. Its a funny thing you see, we could add three 4 even 5 coats and then they are so heavy they act like terminators and you lose productivity. This is why Wiley does not use epoxy. Its a weight thing. But Ill have to take a look at these Rockets. They sound like a great lure and if they can get away with multiple coats of epoxy and still run at speeds exceeding 5 and 6 mph then they got something going on. Im not sure which Slashers you ran but our Jointed do better than our straights. Slashers are built for running behind weights like we use on St. Clair. This year alone we have 50.5, 49, 48, 53.5 and another 40 some odd mid thirties to mid 40,s fish on Slashers. I dont run my Lokes any more as they have become collectors items and are getting worth more and more money every day. I sold all of my Wileys and Gotchas on Ebay a couple of years ago. I sold all of my Mordas minnows this year. Im looking at Ziggy lures and now will have to find these Rockets you are talking about. Im excited. More new toys to play with. Thanks for the heads up. Mike |
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| Mike, you commented on this post so you've seen them before...
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=58...
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | I just re read your post. You are comparing a 6 inch bait to an 8 inch bait. Your lake has a history of being a big lure lake. Ill have to send you (free) a new 8 inch Slasher Jointed . They come with multiple coats of Envirotex(epoxy) and are similar to the BK Chubbie but dont beat the heck out of themselves at the joint. Comparing a 6 inch bait to an 8 inch bait is apples and oranges. Most guys I know put two to 4 coats on 8 inch lures us included so thats not anything new. So now we know. Also remember this , top coats are skin deep. Screw eyes must be glued in or they will fail. And there has never been a screw eye constructed lure that has outperformed wire thru lures as far as how many years they will run. I have Lokes with no paint on them full of holes from 1996 that still run true and catch fish and will be around long after any screw eye bait. On my 12 inch Rock Crushers we torch apply 6 to 8 coats of etex and they pound rocks for years with no breakages. Titanium diving lips and reinforced noses. Durability is only one facet of a great lure. I would rather have a lure get torn to shreds and produce multiple big fish than one that never gets a hole in it and produces a few. So far you got 13 fish on that lure. I have 4 6 inch Lokes with over 50 fish on each one. Old Blue has 67 to its credit.I have slashers with 20 and 30 fish per lure. I applaud this new company and cant wait to see the lures. Like I said I like Michigan Lure companies. You should try a Musky Magnet by Kermit. He has the Michigan state record at 50 pounds. Pm me and Ill send you a lure to test out. You can compare it to your Rocket for both productivity and durability. Ill interested to see the results. Mike |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Oh yes, its from RJ. They are real nice baits. I didnt know they were called Rockets. But yes they are some super lures. I love foil work and wish I had the time to do some like that. And I have seen them before. In fact they have been on my list for some time to get a couple for trolling up on the Torch Chain. Hey, Anyone who can do Foil work is an artist. My hats off to Rj for building great lures. But Ill say it again my 8 inch lures compare much better to his 8 inch stuff than a standard 6. 8 inch baits require more top coat to become the right weight. Heck we put 12 coats on a 21 and it still seams thin. I hope to see RJ in Monroe this year at our first Michigan Musky show. Mike |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | I just went to RJ'S site and did not see anything called a Rocket. He mentions in the basement bait thread that its new. Rob didnt call it a rocket there either but I guess that is the name. Looks awesome . I just love Foil Jobs . Mike
Edited by Kingfisher 8/2/2010 2:56 PM
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| I think he's refering to the "Iva Biggen Bait Co." - Muskie Rocket. www.muskymaniacs.com
Anyways, all of the before mention baits catch fish (and lots of them!)... I agree w/ Mike the Loke is the best-made 6" troller.
The biggest difference between the small Lapper's Gotcha and a Wiley's Muskie Killer is slightly longer (1/4") tail section on Terry's bait. The bait has a slightly different action because of this and seems to catch a few more fish IMO.
I've seen days where they hammer both the Wileys & the Lappers...
I've seen days where they favor the Wileys...
I've seen days where they favor the Gotchas>
But the Lokes will last alot longer than any of the above |
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Posts: 184
| mr. king- please don't feel like i am knocking your baits at all as i see you as a great and innovative baitmaker that one day i aspire to be. i want to get that small bluegill shaped lure off you for next years opener, they look like they could be the ticket in some smaller lakes i fish. it looks like they have been tested alot by your prostaffers and i will be happy to spend my money on them. that pic is of a "hey cisco" in foiled perch. the musky rockets are differant and can handle speeds up to 7mph. bty i was only using the smaller straight slashers for the tourney and that coco perch looked fantastic to me but the rockets were 6" also. i added your slahers and the rockets to my selection this year and feel both are an improvement over alot of other plugs. please don't let my new found loyality feel like an insult to all your hard work as i have heard of people i fish w/ doing well on them. i fully support your company and would never talk bad about it b/c you have nice lures and seem like a wonderful person. best luck mr. king and i would love a mag slasher if you want to convert me over. lol. |
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Location: Southwest Ohio | I was just on the Wiley web site and it says the site has been suspended. Anyone know whats up?
Don |
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| i have had some lures on order since march through him and am still waiting with no expectation date, so my guess is he has enough business for this year, as every time i email him it takes a long time to get back to me. don't take that as 100% truth but that is my guess. |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | zach2626 - 8/2/2010 4:45 PM
mr. king- please don't feel like i am knocking your baits at all as i see you as a great and innovative baitmaker that one day i aspire to be. i want to get that small bluegill shaped lure off you for next years opener, they look like they could be the ticket in some smaller lakes i fish. it looks like they have been tested alot by your prostaffers and i will be happy to spend my money on them. that pic is of a "hey cisco" in foiled perch. the musky rockets are differant and can handle speeds up to 7mph. bty i was only using the smaller straight slashers for the tourney and that coco perch looked fantastic to me but the rockets were 6" also. i added your slahers and the rockets to my selection this year and feel both are an improvement over alot of other plugs. please don't let my new found loyality feel like an insult to all your hard work as i have heard of people i fish w/ doing well on them. i fully support your company and would never talk bad about it b/c you have nice lures and seem like a wonderful person. best luck mr. king and i would love a mag slasher if you want to convert me over. lol.
No offence taken. I know that our stuff is good but there is always room for better (grins) I love it when someone solves a problem that I can benefit from ha ha ha . The ultimate would be a Balsa wood crank that was indestructable. You see lighter is almost always better in a crankbait but there are exceptions. Some terminators just flat out run great and outfish anything on the water but most of them seem to be a little tempermental. Ive not seen the rockets yet but will be looking into several for my box and for reference. I am always looking to improve our stuff. Learning from others can help. The Slasher was designed to run behind weights like the Loke. Both however can run flatlined and they do catch fish that way. You need to try the Jointeds though as they work far better in eastern waters. The straights seem to have a home in the north western parts of Ontario. I would be glad to have you test a new 8 inch Slasher for me on your home waters in New York. Pm me with your address and color preference.
But back to Lappers and Wileys. First off I like both lures. Both catch fish, both are in constant stages of redesign and improvement. Lappers have even done some in foil and that is more than Ive been able to do. They are very different in design and run different as well. With these lures I think it the designs that make them catch fish. They both wander and run erratic and like any Cedar baits my own included they have durability issues due to teeth penetration. But hey, Ill trade fish in the boat for torn up lures any time.
The new Rockets sound like something I need to look at. They will however have a long way to go before they can claim the top spot in wood lures. I mean look at it this way. There are still Lokes out there from 20 years ago and older ,still catching fish and will still be there long after Im dead and gone. Thats a lot of catching up to do ha ha ha . Mike |
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Location: Land of the Musky | Wiley site is good to go. Was there last week and no problems. May have been updating it right when you tried too. That will give an error message sometimes.
http://www.muskiethrills.com/index2.html
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Location: Sw Pennsylvania | On the wiley Vs Lapper comparision IMO and i've owned a dozen lappers and sold all, but being from PA its hard to beat the wiley. I've heard of a few problems with eye screws but personally i've never had one issue. The paint holds up better then any other trolling lure i've personally ever run. Wileys thump harder and run straighter IMO also. |
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Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | As long as you guys have mentioned my baits I am going to chime in. Kingfisher makes some nice baits and they work great, are tough and are through wired.
I do use screw eyes that are expoxied in and haven't had any failures or complaints of failure yet. Not saying it couldn't happen but so far it hasn't. I have some baits that are 10 years old and still going strong.
I do make "Musky Rockets" which I make in a foiled perch model along with 24 other colors. The one that is posted earlier is one of the "Hey Cisco" baits in foiled perch. Two different styles of baits....The Rockets are more in the mode of Wiley's and Lappers where the "Hey Ciscos" are a flat sided crank bait that can be twitched, casted or trolled.
Anyway, wanted to clear that up and thanks for mentioning my baits.
Rod
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| tks for everybody who have choose to stay in the topics
once again sound like a info commercial topic..................
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Hey RJ, good to hear from you. I use screw eyes too and glue them in like you do. Its the only way to insure they wont get loose. I do both wire thru and screw eyes. It will be good to meet you at the Michigan Show. I went to Iveabigun web site and Im confused, do you own both sites( RJ and Muskymaniacs) and are you RON or Rob? Brothers maybe? . I like the looks of that new lure. The old school metal gromets under the screw eyes like the Weagle is real sharp. Nice touch. Mike |
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Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | As far as the difference goes thats was originally post if you look at both baits closely you will the the Gotcha has the lip closer to the front first off. Thats gives a bit harder action. The Gotcha lip is also slightly larger with helps with that and I've also found the Gotchas run a bit deepr than a Wiley. The Gotchas also have their tail section wired through and use longer and thicker screw eyes than the Wileys. Wileys though do seem to hold paint better though. I fish LSC steady and have a lot of both baits and switch back and forth between depending on what fish want that day. Gotchas do come out on top as my "goto" bait for mid season trolling on LSC.
God Fishin'
Tim
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Location: North of Sweden! | Kingfisher in one of the posts above states;
"Slashers are built for running behind weights like we use on St. Clair."
And I'd like some more info or rather everyones input as to your setups visavi running baits in this style behind weights.... All of the baits mentioned in this thread looks to be amazing baits (though from this old thread seems to hold up for more or less abuse/use). In sweden I have not found either of these baits discussed at length here, but, managed to come across a used BK Les Chubbie which I love and has put quite a few decent pike in my boat...
Something I stumbled upon lately and has seemed to work out really great is to rubber-band some sinkers roughly 6' up from the bait (at the top of my leader where I connect it to my braid with a FGknot, which gives a good base for the rubberbands to grab on to).
I've been using around 2-4oz of weight depending on the areas I fish. What kind of setup do you guys run your wiley-style baits? Also? any input on what baits I should be looking for? might have to order some from overseas as I am fearing I will troll my one and only Les Chubbie to bits if it keeps on being as productive as it has proven so far (only other kinda similar "substitute" for this my one and only Les Chubbie is two Drifter Tackle 10" Stalkers)
Kind regards /Peter |
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wiley vs lapper