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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Your help is needed. There are some fishing rule regulations being proposed at this point by the Indiana DNR. You can find them here: http://www.in.gov/nrc/2377.htm
Please comment on the shad regulation. They are proposing the use of live shad...but only in certain lakes/rivers. At this point the proposal does not include any muskie lakes. You can comment on the proposal by going to the link above. Please ask for the use of live shad on muskie waters! We are already able to use ANY other live bait as long as it is caught legally. |
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Posts: 366
| Really? You want to expand the use of live bait for muskies? We are working the other direction to the south of you. Too many gut hooked muskies floating around here in the winter. I guess good luck with your proposal, just hope it doesn't turn against you. |
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Posts: 2361
| Vince,
What do you view as the "positives" to getting live shad ok'd? I would think there would be an exceptional risk of hook trauma with such a bait. The muskies down here suck gizzard shad like Slam'r hitting jello shots, unless they are really big shad. A 9-10" shad does not have to be bitten, it can be gulped, even by a low thirties fish. Live shad are legal down here, but I don't view them as a particularly effective competitor with artificial baits, and I am guessing they aren't, because I don't see people using them with any frequency. Educate us. |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Every year you see muskies chasing gizzard shad and exploding on the surface after them. How many baits immitate a shad? I would much rather use free live shad than pay $5+ for a sucker. We use bluegill here all the time which are the same size as the shad...or smaller. All guides use them. I have never gut hooked a muskie on a bluegill.
Muskies were first introduced into Indiana waters to help reduce the shad population...why not help it along a little more.
How many baits do you use that are bigger than 9-10"? Perry Smith, the late Muskies Inc. President, used a mepps #5 musky killer 95% of the time on LOTW. That bait is 5" max. Ever heard of a kickin minnow?...10" long.
Why not have another option to put in our arsenal of catching muskies? |
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Posts: 202
| I am going to have to agree with Vince on this one. In my personal opinion live bait, when used correctly, is possibly the safest way to catch muskies. It is an unfortunate truth that occasionally a musky will get a bit to over zealous in their feeding methods and will completely inhale a bulldawg or cowgirl however for some reason almost every fish we catch on live bait has the sucker, or whatever baitfish, T boned in its mouth. The honest truth is that the only way to ensure 0% mortality is not to fish, using Shad, Bluegills, Bass, or Suckers is, in my opinion, just as safe if not safer then almost any other tactic we employ. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | i also do agree with vince on this one, but i do not use single hooks / circle hooks, and i will not becouse of things i have seen happen in the past. now if we can come up with a q/s rig for blue gills and shad (if we get to use them), i would love to use them. i just hope that all that do use the single hook/circle hook design , be extra carefull with them.. i know several other guy's here including fellow guides using this way and have awsome success with it. but i am gonna try to come up with a system to use on gills and shad |
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| you guys are already using suckers, bluegills, goldfish (and i assume other live bait too). why increase the options of livebait to shad? are muskies that hard to catch? If muskies were introduced to keep the shad population in check, i would not think it's NOT a good idea to condition them to not eat shad. I believe muskies would get skinner and less heathly if everyone on those lakes had 3 shad hanging off the back of thier boats. No Shad...at some point we have to draw the line and keep musky fishing "sporting"...this also might drive muskies to start feeding on bass more, which can lead to more issues.
million lures, plenty of live bait options already...shad seems like an overkill and might end up hurting your fishery more than it does good. |
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| keeping the shad alive will be a pretty good challenge for you, I'm sure you'll find. |
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'If muskies were introduced to keep the shad population in check, i would not think it's NOT a good idea to condition them to not eat shad. ' How would that happen? A hundred years of using suckers in Wisconsin hasn't conditioned the muskies here not to eat them.
Bass compete with muskies and actually are far more harmful to Muskie NR than many other species.
How would using shad cause muskies to feed on bass?
Shad are used as bait for many other species of fish without any problems. |
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Posts: 272
| sworrall - 7/26/2010 8:34 AM
'A hundred years of using suckers in Wisconsin hasn't conditioned the muskies here not to eat them.
Well said. |
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| There really is no need for using shad for bait. They hit lures, suckers, and other baits just fine. As mentioned you would need a shad tank just to keep them alive and they won't live long at all once rigged. Seems like a bunch of nonsense to me. |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | "If muskies were introduced to keep the shad population in check, i would not think it's NOT a good idea to condition them to not eat shad. I believe muskies would get skinner and less heathly if everyone on those lakes had 3 shad hanging off the back of thier boats. No Shad"
I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but that line of thinking above just doesn't really make much sense. Do Muskies in Wisconsin become conditioned to not eat suckers after the fall season where many boats have 2+ hanging off the boat? Live bait is live bait either way, just because suckers are the common choice that doesn't mean they are safer then any other form of live bait.... |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | There must be more to the story. Why would they finally expand the list of allowed lakes but not include all lakes w/ them present? If they must be used on the specific water where caught and killed after use they must have a good reason why they're not expanding the list beyond those lakes mentioned. Maybe they're only expanding it where Stripers and big Catfish are present but then why not include Muskie lakes? |
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| sworrall - 7/26/2010 8:34 AM
' How would that happen? A hundred years of using suckers in Wisconsin hasn't conditioned the muskies here not to eat them.
apples to oranges..
as of the spring of 2010, you could go out to webster lake and find 10 to 15 boats, all with 1 to 6 bluegills out at a time for bait. some boats have 9 bluegills out at one time. that's a lot of "dont eat bluegill conditioning"....in Northern WI, from my experience, if there are 4 boats with suckers in the water on one lake, that's a lot of pressure. it's not the same. some Indiana lakes recieve more live bait pressure in two months than 90% of WI lakes do all year (not guaranteeing that, just an opinion from my observations). So, how could that happen? take 15 boats, with 6 suckers each, on your favorite WI lake 7 days a week for 3 years and you will catch fewer muskies on suckers than you did before you conditioned the muskies to be weary of suckers.
Bass compete with muskies and actually are far more harmful to Muskie NR than many other species.
How would using shad cause muskies to feed on bass?
I just figured if muskies were eating shad less, because they keep getting hooked on them, they might start targeting other species. ?
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I've seen 15 boats on a smaller lake in the fall up here, all dragging suckers, and that not all that a rare occurence. Didn't even slow down the sucker bite. Not apples to oranges at all, live bait to muskies.
If your logic was correct, there wold be no muskies caught there casting anymore...and none trolling either.
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Posts: 305
| Certainly no live bait expert. Just started using it for skis in earnest last fall. I fish all over the midwest and Canada. I do know one thing...those Indiana muskie can be much tougher to catch(even on live bait) in a given set of conditions compared to other localities. The pressure is insane sometimes. I'd love to be able to up the odds, even a little, with more choices. I wonder if someone might know of ways to keep shad lively for such use? |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | You wouldn't be allowed to transfer the bait...they would have to be caught/used/discarded same water/same time. I use a single treble hook (have never used circle hooks) on bluegill and would use the same for the shad. Contact me if you have any questions. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | esoxlucifer - 7/26/2010 11:37 PM I wonder if someone might know of ways to keep shad lively for such use? http://www.arkansasstripers.com/keeping_shad_alive.htm |
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| Guest - 7/26/2010 7:53 AM
you guys are already using suckers, bluegills, goldfish (and i assume other live bait too). why increase the options of livebait to shad? are muskies that hard to catch? If muskies were introduced to keep the shad population in check, i would not think it's NOT a good idea to condition them to not eat shad. I believe muskies would get skinner and less heathly if everyone on those lakes had 3 shad hanging off the back of thier boats. No Shad...at some point we have to draw the line and keep musky fishing "sporting"...this also might drive muskies to start feeding on bass more, which can lead to more issues.
million lures, plenty of live bait options already...shad seems like an overkill and might end up hurting your fishery more than it does good.
I vote this post of the year, I think it really encompasses much of what is posted on the site when it come to ethics and biology...BR |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Guest - 7/26/2010 8:53 AM
If muskies were introduced to keep the shad population in check, i would not think it's NOT a good idea to condition them to not eat shad.QUOTE]
Like I said...one of the original reasons was to help with the population. Muskies have now been in Webster for 30 years. The DNR has stated that they did not reduce the population of shad but have rather adapted to the environment very well.
A five year study the Indiana DNR ran from 2000-2005 noted 3 changes in populations of fish over that timeframe:
# of bass 5-7" decreased
# of bass 14"+ increased
# of perch doubled |
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Posts: 305
| Vince, I'm a newbie at this, so sorry if this question seems silly...what size bluegill, what size treble, and exactly how do you fasten hook to the bluegill? |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | I like the bigger bluegills, but will take what i can get. I usually use a 2/0 or 3/0 treble. I hook it through the meaty section behind the eyes. I sometimes use a float/weight and sometimes just a straight line with no weight or float. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | i'm with vince, thats the best way to use the gills. treble not a circle hook. i dont use them either. and the 2 or 3 does the job. but i also like the biggfer gills. the smaller ones dont last too long and have a hard time swimming around with the treble |
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| Live bait, shmive bait----- who really cares what minnows are used as live bait? Muskies eat everything from shad and gills to ducks and frogs and EVERYTHING in between. The have an innate quality to munch what they want---when they want it! Besides there are some MONSTER shad in the Indy lakes. As long as we, the fisherpersons, utilize proper landing,handling, and releasing techniques, this will be just another TOOL in the ol' musky box for everyone to enjoy. Fish on-----Jobu |
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Posts: 5161
| I am againist it because I think webster lake has way to much live bait fishing already.If it has to pass the only way to do it is catch the shad out of webster and than use it.So much sucker soaking over there takes the sport out of it.I vote indy to have one line allowed per angler.I bet than we would not even have this discussion. b ram |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | 0723 - 7/29/2010 2:42 PM
I am againist it because I think webster lake has way to much live bait fishing already.If it has to pass the only way to do it is catch the shad out of webster and than use it.So much sucker soaking over there takes the sport out of it.I vote indy to have one line allowed per angler.I bet than we would not even have this discussion. b ram
The proposal states that they have to be caught out of the lake they are used in...no transporting. |
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| Hey b ram--- what do you have against people who use live bait on Webster? I fish the area--- ALOT----- and the live baiters don't have any advantage over the artificial baiters. If someone wants to use a shad instead of a kickin' minnow---more power to 'em. If they wanna chuck a sucker instead of a Suzy Sucker---have at it. The point is---- there's a time and a place for live bait techniques---- as long as we handle our fish with the same care as we do when fishing artificials---- everyone should have the opportunity to catch fish however they want to----under legal statutes of course. Good fishin to ya------Jobu |
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Posts: 5161
| No problem with live bait at all joebuch,if you are using one line.I have been out there seeing 3,4,5,6 suckers out there and people casting also.I just do not like it.I bet alot of these suckers end up in the lake alive or who knows what disease they have.I just do not see the positives for webster introducing more live bait fishing when there is already way to much of this going on there over the years.I mean sometimes it is so bad there on the weekend with livebait rigs all over there are no lanes to cast.Jobu you know what I am talking about if you fish there with live bait frequently.Vince the shad from webster might work,the only problem people start putting the shad in livewells who knows what lurks in there also? b ram.
"I would rather get skunked than catch one trolling."RAMBO TACKLE THEME |
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| Hey b ram---- I have NEVER seen 6 lines at a time on Webster plus casting---and as I stated before----I fish that lake ALOT! If you have witnessed said activity---you should call the DNR on those criminals. However, the use of shad as live bait , in an ecosystem that they are already present in poses no more threat than the people using perch, gills, or suckers from that ecosystem. Transporting them to other lakes is ANOTHER story entirely. But to catch and use them straight from the lake that they're already in is FINE, in my opinion. Fish on----Jobu |
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Posts: 5161
| JoBu next time I see it i will take a picture for you.Heres the problem you got 3 or 4 people in the boat what is your line limit?I do not think they are doing anything illegal.b ram
Edited by 0723 8/1/2010 11:44 AM
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Location: WI | So if you don't personally like something it should be illegal for others to do/use? I see no problem with using live bait, to each his own. It's not like they're proposing the use of rotenone. |
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Posts: 366
| JKahler - 8/2/2010 12:41 AM
So if you don't personally like something it should be illegal for others to do/use?
No offense, but yes. That is how society works. If enough people have a similar feeling about something, then it becomes a law and makes a situation or action illegal. While many experienced or well trained individuals can practice something such as single hook live baiting with shad successfully with little to no negative impact to the muskie population, do you believe that the average citizen who buys a fishing license, could and would, also replicate this experience as well as its affects? If the answer is yes, then try and get it passed, if the answer is no or even maybe, then think about it a little more, cause having a regulation undone isn’t a quick and easy process when floaters start showing up everywhere.
Granted, fishing with a bluegill versus a shad really isn’t that different. But, if it is the same then why wouldn’t the DNR have made the regulation the same in the first place?
Ryan
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Fishwizard - 8/2/2010 2:58 AM
But, if it is the same then why wouldn’t the DNR have made the regulation the same in the first place?
Because bluegill have always been here and shad are an invasive species?
Edited by Vince Weirick 8/2/2010 2:17 AM
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Location: Palm Coast, FL | 0723 - 8/1/2010 12:41 PM
JoBu next time I see it i will take a picture for you.Heres the problem you got 3 or 4 people in the boat what is your line limit?I do not think they are doing anything illegal.b ram
I have seen 1 boat do this every year in the fall...and he is guiding and only guides in the fall for a short time. |
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Posts: 5161
| That was one the boats I have seen and there are a few others.What is the offical lines per person limit in Indiana? I do not really know because I only use one line. b ram
Edited by 0723 8/2/2010 7:22 AM
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | 3 per person |
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| I vote that those who don't live in Indiana get a say so. And no, we aren't going to use our tax dollars to stock muskies near the Chicago area either... |
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Posts: 2361
| Anybody can post on their DNR opinion board, and I did, not in favor of the shad thing on any musky lake. Good chance to be heard. Post that you do or don't like it as you see fit.
Very fair of Vince to put it up here for everyone's opinion. |
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| Guest - 8/2/2010 11:44 AM
I vote that those who don't live in Indiana get a say so. And no, we aren't going to use our tax dollars to stock muskies near the Chicago area either...
Oops, typo...I vote that those who don't live in Indiana DONT get a say so. Sorry, but if you don't live here, don't worry about it. |
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| Hey b ram---sounds like those guys are just bringin the muskies to the "school" instead of huntin' 'em down. If seen more than one article about camping on spots waiting for the skis to come to you. If 4 dudes wanna camp out and live bait instead of chuck and wind---they've got more patience than this musky hunter. I'd rather hunt 'em down but you can't argue that when the bite's tough---a lively minnow will turn fish quicker than any artificial-----Not my rules, God just made muskies that way----gotta love the food chain. Good luck---fish on---Jobu |
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| Why is it fair for you to vote??? For serious...these our our tax dollars and our lakes. They have no impact on you. Feel free to butt out. |
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Posts: 2361
| Guest - 8/2/2010 11:50 AM
Guest - 8/2/2010 11:44 AM
I vote that those who don't live in Indiana get a say so. And no, we aren't going to use our tax dollars to stock muskies near the Chicago area either...
Oops, typo...I vote that those who don't live in Indiana DONT get a say so. Sorry, but if you don't live here, don't worry about it.
You can vote on that if it ever comes up, but Vince posted so people could offer an opinion and there is no restriction in the comments section on the DNR site as to who gets to offer their opinion. Mine is that shad are best left unused as live bait for musky. I worry about it in the same vein as spawning site degradation in Leech(never fished there), invasive species, introduced diseases, various lake studies, expansion of the musky range and other broad topics concerning the resource.
"If you don't live here don't worry about it" could be the motto for a declining resource for all of us. |
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | "If you don't live here don't worry about it" could be the motto for a declining resource for all of us."
True, for sure.
Funny, when folks want out of staters to influence a new law or rule the want/don't want enacted, they push the heck out of us to email or make the call, almost making it sound like it's our civic duty. ( sometimes it is) Yet, when there's a thread like this one, suddenly it's none of our business. Can't win, and some goof anonymously hollers MuskieFIRST doesn't 'do enough' for somewhere out there.....can't have it both ways, yet it's asked of all of us.
Odd. |
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Posts: 5161
| All I can say is I bet the local businesses and guides enjoy all of us out of staters coming there to fish.When you need our support for higher limits you have no problem asking us to sign or show up to dnr meetings.Why now because we do not agree with your in state agenda this time on this issue?When someone in the near future needs signatures for one line per angler proposal in Indiana I will sign that along with many out of staters.I hope this is the minority speaking for the indiana fisheries but as the post drags out I am afraid it is not. b ram
"I would rather get skunked than catch one trolling."RAMBO TACKLE THEME |
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Location: Palm Coast, FL | Guest - 8/2/2010 12:52 PM
Why is it fair for you to vote??? For serious...these our our tax dollars and our lakes. They have no impact on you. Feel free to butt out.
THESE ARE OUR LAKES...IN STATE AND OUT OF STATE...PUBLIC WATERS! I welcome all input to this thread.
Just guessing but I would think the Indiana DNR would weigh the opinion of in state people compared to people from out of state but don't know for sure. |
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | By the way, I personally have no problem with the idea of using shad for bait, have fished stripers that way and it's fun. |
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Posts: 196
| well, a couple of guests posted on here....."are muskies that hard to catch that you need live bait"......YES...there aren't near the muskie population here in Indiana as opposed to other places, or at least not that I know of. I live in central Indiana and we have only boated two muskie this year...but there are only about 5 lakes that even have them within 2 hours and there are a very limited number in those lakes, not to mention that they do not reproduce in these waters..... so any small increase in advantage would definitely make fishing them here more productive and exciting.....however I do have to agree that in my personal experiences, I have seen alot more fatality in other species when fishing with live bait....therefore I choose not to use it other than for panfish that you are planning on harvesting anyway, but I'm not going to down someone else for wanting to catch more fish. |
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| Vince, or anyone else?
Have you ever tried to catch gizzard shad in any of the N Webster muskie lakes with a cast net?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that given the typical water clarity in those lakes in the fall, you might find it very difficult to catch shad of the size you would like to use for musky fishing.
TAN
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Your best time to catch them would be in the spring in the shallow water. I have never tried it with cast nets. In the fall...the most shad you will encounter will the threadfin shad which are too small to use (2"-3"). Gizzard shad are the ones you are looking for. I have not tried to catch them as you cannot use them as live bait in Indiana...this is the only fish you cannot use as live bait in Indiana. |
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Posts: 54
| Thats not true... You can not use any invasive species fish for bait. No shad, no gobies, no white perch. For good reason. We kill the smallmouths on Lake Michigan on goby look-alike baits. The last thing the DNR wants is a group of pinheads that think they know more about whats good for the lakes and rivers than the degreed biologists loading up to use gobies for bait in the Tippicanoe river, Wabash, ect..to fish smallies. That is what would happen with the shad I know it. Loon and the other shad free lakes would be soon loaded. Remember that is how the shad got where they are. DNR says illeagle stocking by bass fisherman. |
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Location: oswego, il | I don't have an issue with shad being used as live bait although the point made about moving shad between lakes is a good point. Another point probably made is that small shad would be used if large ones could not be found making them easier swallow meals. I have used bluegills out there too for bait but so far i am not sure they have been worth my effort. keeping the shad alive will be difficult and I am sure the rigging would be somehow different to keep them that way.
I always laugh at the people who say it's our waters not yours, yet there is a public launch and the lake isn't privately owned. Makes them totally wrong. |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Rock Bottom - 8/3/2010 2:52 PM
Thats not true... You can not use any invasive species fish for bait. No shad, no gobies, no white perch. For good reason. We kill the smallmouths on Lake Michigan on goby look-alike baits. The last thing the DNR wants is a group of pinheads that think they know more about whats good for the lakes and rivers than the degreed biologists loading up to use gobies for bait in the Tippicanoe river, Wabash, ect..to fish smallies. That is what would happen with the shad I know it. Loon and the other shad free lakes would be soon loaded. Remember that is how the shad got where they are. DNR says illeagle stocking by bass fisherman.
I stand corrected...but not by your post. From the Indiana DNR regulations:
"You may use wild fish as live bait as long
as the fish was caught legally and meets any
size, catch, or possession limits established
for that species. Goldfish may be used as live
bait. Carp and gizzard shad cannot be used
as live bait, except at Brookville Lake, where
live shad may be used.
It is illegal to possess the following
fish and mussels alive without holding a
species permit. If any of these are caught,
they must be killed immediately and not
returned to the water. Your cooperation
is essential.
••Asiatic clam
••Bighead carp
••Black carp
••Silver carp
••Snakehead (of the family Channidae)
••Quagga mussel
••Rudd
••Ruffe
••Round goby
••Tubenose goby
••Walking catfish (of the family
Clariidae)
••White perch (not freshwater drum)
••Zebra mussel"
I guess Carp are also not to be used as live bait. The other fish you mentioned are not to be in your possession let alone fish with them. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | As a outsider (I live in Oregon) I find it hard to understand why anyone would use live bait for a fish that most anglers are interested in protecting. Musky are a sport fish and worth millions to local merchants and the states in which they may be found. Millions are spent on habitat improvements and hatcheries. It seems only logical that anglers and fish managers would want to protect these investments. One other thing, the use of live fish for bait has been outlawed in the west for longer than I can remember.........decades.
RM
Edited by RiverMan 8/4/2010 11:29 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | As another outsider (I live in Wisconsin) ... let me say that i'm so glad i don't live in Indiana that i just about can't stand it. |
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| jonnysled - 8/4/2010 11:48 AM
As another outsider (I live in Wisconsin) ... let me say that i'm so glad i don't live in Indiana that i just about can't stand it.
So.........in other words, you are not really sure WHO put the I in FIB???
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| I used to fish Wisconsin waters quite frequently but over time I discovered the fishing is IMMENSELY better in the "land of corn" than it is in the "land of cheese"----just one ol' time musky hunter's opinion. Why can't we all just get along?-----Jobu |
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| Just got back home after a long summer in Minnesota and had a buddy of mine tell me about this discussion.
I would be 100% against the use of shad as bait here in Indiana. I don't think that it would be a good idea at all..but again that is just my opinion.
MIKE HULBERT
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Posts: 61
Location: Avilla, IN | I live in Indiana and fish for muskies here regularly. I have not heard any legitimate arguments here against the use of shad as live bait. I would certainly think most guys would be using respectable size shad just for the fact of trying to keep them alive. As a comparison.....plenty of guys like using 'smaller suckers' in the 6-8" range. I would think smaller suckers could be swallowed just as easily as a medium sized shad. Seems like every year there are days, or even weeks that if you are not fishing live bait you are going to find it tough to boat a fish. At the end of the day, most musky guys I know are still excited to tell the story about the fish they caught.................. even if it was on live bait!!!! |
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Use of Live Shad in Indiana...