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| Question: Why do anglers stop fishing when the water reaches 80 degrees?
Lets not get carried away here. I am talking about water temps from 80-85 degrees.
To my knowledge there is no study showing mortality rates on fish caught when the water is above 80 degrees. I understand water quality goes down the higher the water temps, but you would think fish living in such conditions would adapt right?
Reasons I see it as not being a huge problem (if you know how to properly handle and release these fish):
- Fish become stressed regardless what the water temperature is
- No matter what the temperature most anglers take fish out of the water for a picture (fish are meant to live underwater, not out)
- Fish swim away fine (there are many other factors that determine delayed mortality and I believe they are much more of a factor when combined than water temperature)
- Certain lures like "swimbaits" (very popular swimbaits) kill lots of fish each year and in my opinion are more deadly than fishing in water temps above 80 degrees.
- Less anglers fishing/less pressure
- Fish can be much harder to catch when temperatures are this high
- Muskies prefer water temps in the 75 degree range yet we fish for them when water temps are well below 60. That is a 15 degree difference while 80 degrees is only a 5 degree difference and 85 is a 10 degree difference.
What are your reasons for not fishing in water 80 degrees or more? Do you have proof it is bad or do you stop because of what people tell you? |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Maybe you should look a little harder for "studies" that relate to mortality rates of fish caught in hot water.
If that doesn't work for you than read some articles that have been printed in Esox Angler by MNDNR biologists Rod Ramsell and Dan Iserman.
JS |
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| Also please list reasons why you DO fish for muskies when the water temperature is 80 or more and why you don't see it as a problem.
To my knowledge much of canada's water temperatures are 80 degrees or better and people are still fishing. Same goes for Minnesota. |
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| john skarie - 7/14/2010 12:55 PM
Maybe you should look a little harder for "studies" that relate to mortality rates of fish caught in hot water.
If that doesn't work for you than read some articles that have been printed in Esox Angler by MNDNR biologists Rod Ramsell and Dan Iserman.
JS
We are talking true studies here not stuff written by musky fishermen. |
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| I am not trying to encourage everyone to go out and start fishing for muskies when the water temperature is extremely high but I do fish for them when the water is 80-84 degrees ONCE IN A WHILE and have gotten yelled at by people that have no scientific evidence to back up their beliefs. I handle these fish with extreme care and make sure they do go down and I have never had a problem with fish dying or coming back to the surface. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | From what I know its because the dissolved oxygen levels become significantly lower as water temperatures reach above 80 degrees... less dissolved oxygen in the water means less chance of survival for stressed fish. |
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| While I agree high water temps are hard on fish, I think it has to do more with how/where youre catching them. Casting a bucktail into 5 feet of water and catching a fish is a little bit different than running a crankbait 20 ft down and then pulling a fish up. I think the rapid temperature change combined with the warm water is where the real problem is. |
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Posts: 390
Location: Ohio | Despite my username, I cast probably 75% of the time. It drives me up a wall to see people out there when the temps are that high. Like the last guest said, it's how you catch them. I am one of the very few casters in Ohio. They pull these fish up from 20', there is less oxygen in the water as they are fought to the boat. So, with the combination of the fight and less oxygen intake it has to kill some fish. |
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| i'm no biologist but fish obviously have a hard time recovering in warmer temps. i'll trust what i've seen myself and don't really have to prove it or throw stats out there to satisfy anyone. as the previous poster stated fishing isn't all that great in this heat anyway, i can wait. |
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | Some time ago I searched without success for a scientific study "on point". I was referred to a great deal of literature, most of which had nothing to do with temperature as a stressor in muskie catch and release mortality. I believe the current Carlton University study will touch on that concept (although it is not the primary focus of the study). That said, there is a great deal of scientific literature dealing with other fish species and increased mortality rates related to catch and release fishing in higher water temperatures. Additionally, the anecdotal evidence is high. Does there need to be a study? Absolutely. Until then, I will err on the side of caution. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
The articles wrtitten in EA by Rod and Dan are written by scientists who fish. Dan has a PhD in fisheries and Rod is a research biologist. Both work for the MNDNR.
If you want credible information than read it.
JS |
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Posts: 196
| I completely agree with John but why not have the data/info posted in a thread for the less informed anglers to read what they are doing to the fish when catching them in warmer water temps. |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | Guest - 7/14/2010 2:21 PM
I agree with this person,also why would a guide cancell with his clients because of high temps,guides see it first hand.
i'm no biologist but fish obviously have a hard time recovering in warmer temps. i'll trust what i've seen myself and don't really have to prove it or throw stats out there to satisfy anyone. as the previous poster stated fishing isn't all that great in this heat anyway, i can wait. |
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Posts: 203
Location: Germantown, WI | I am no scientist either, but I know that as water warms it holds less dissolved oxygen. That is a major reason why muskies often take longer to revive in mid-Summer than in late Fall. Try keeping minnows alive during the summer without keeping the water cool and providing lots of oxygenation. Trout, for example, become stressed as water temps go above 70 degrees due to the lack of dissolved oxygen and will seek thermal refuges if available. I'm not sure if 80 degrees is the magic number or not for muskies, but it makes sense to me that there is a point at which the dangers of unsuccessful live release in warm water temperatures outweigh the possible benefits of catching a musky.
I know that there are several reputable guides in KY, IN, and IL that stop fishing for muskies in the Summer in those locations. Some of them move North to guide in Minnesota or Northern Wisconsin during the Summer months where high water temps are not usually a problem. Like so many other things in life as well as in fishing this is a personal choice. I know there are many that feel strongly about the ethics of this issue, but I believe that name calling and bashing of those who choose to legally fish is not a very effective way to make a point. Gentle persuasion and education will be far more effective in the long run.
I have a guided musky trip planned for later this month in SE WI. It was an anniversary gift from my wife. As the trip gets closer I will talk to the guide to see what he thinks about it. If he thinks the water is too warm to ethically fish for muskies I will attemp to reschedule. This is someone that I trust and who I believe would not musky fish if he believed it was unsafe for the muskies.
I once had 2 trout die in one day on a day when the water temps were above 70 degrees because they would not swim away after I attempted to release them. These were fish that I did not even take out of the water. I vowed that day that I would not trout fish when the water was above 70 degrees. Did I do anything wrong by fishing when the water was above 70 degrees? I don't think so, but I did learn a lesson about the consequences of my actions. |
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Posts: 393
Location: Hopefully on the water | I tending to look at it this way of why I choose not to fish when water temps are that high. Generally speaking it is hot out and I am sweating myself and don't feel overally comfortable. Know if the kids want to play catch or run around in that weather I tire out easier. Now I haven't had delayed mortality myself, when I get done playing with the kids or off the water I just want to kick back in some AC. The fish don't have the option of finding AC when it is very hot out to cool off and recoop.
Now granted this is hear say but I had heard at 1 point that 1 in 5 fish we release will die due to delayed mortality in ANY water temps. Is this true, I am not sure but would like to see a study done on it.
We all preach and think we are carefully handling these fish. But what we don't see is after the fish swims away and what happens to it then. I hope the number I have heard are not correct but how much do we know under the water.
I thnk that Tom Betka has done some searching on the subject and maybe able to provide some more info if he is still around.
Each is to their own choices on the matter. What helps all of us is sharing our beliefs and being open minded enough to hear someone else's and agree to disagree or both come to agreeements. |
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| john skarie - 7/14/2010 2:31 PM
The articles wrtitten in EA by Rod and Dan are written by scientists who fish. Dan has a PhD in fisheries and Rod is a research biologist. Both work for the MNDNR.
If you want credible information than read it.
JS
Whos to say they do not have a biased opinion? No disrespect intended but did they put transmitters in all of the fish they caught during high water temps to see if they die or not? These are die hard musky fishermen giving you reasons not to fish without pure results to the conclusion.
Lets be honest with ourselves here. We have all caught fish that we had a hard time releasing regardless of the water temps. Just because they are slow to release or revive if you will does not mean the chances of survival is significantly decreased.
Do the same people that wish to not fish when the water is 80 degrees not use certain lures such as bulldawgs and tube baits because the chances of killing fish are increased? I've witnessed these baits kill more fish than I've witnessed high water temps kill fish. Just something to think about.
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Posts: 2361
| I think there is some confusion here. Water that is warm contains adequate oxygen, however the metabolism of the fish is so much higher, the requirements for everything exertion-wise is what I believe causes the fish problems. Fighting a fish is an unnaturally high octane activity for the fish, while feeding and digesting are probably within the range of things they can do in warm water. Being lifted from cool water into water 8-10 degrees warmer can be another problem.
80 degrees can hold the subsistence comfort 6 ppm the fish requires, but the exertion needs have to go up exponentially at the warmer temps. So lactic acid buildup and exhaustion may be an added somewhat overwhelming stress when everything in the body is already running on high.
the current Cave Run profile going from surface to the dead zone, copied from the information page, note at the 80 degree range the fish still have oxygen, and even at the 83.8 temps. Eventually this lake will heat into the mid to upper 70's to the 25 foot zone, with no oxygen below that, though much cooler water temps exist below that thermocline. The current fish zone for this lake would probably be in the 19-23 foot area for musky.
Depth Temp Oxygen
0 83.8F° (28.8C°) 7.9
5 83.8F° (28.8C°) 7.9
10 83.1F° (28.4C°) 8.2
15 81.0F° (27.2C°) 8.2
16 79.5F° (26.4C°) 8.6
17 78.6F° (25.9C°) 9.2
18 77.9F° (25.5C°) 9.4
19 76.1F° (24.5C°) 8.4
20 74.8F° (23.8C°) 8.1
21 73.0F° (22.8C°) 7.9
22 71.6F° (22.0C°) 7.5
23 69.4F° (20.8C°) 5.8
24 68.0F° (20.0C°) 5.1
25 67.1F° (19.5C°) 4.6
30 64.6F° (18.1C°) 2.1
35 62.4F° (16.9C°) 0.9
40 60.1F° (15.6C°) 0.3
45 59.0F° (15.0C°) 0.0
Edited by firstsixfeet 7/14/2010 4:33 PM
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Posts: 785
| Who needs a study? You catch a musky in 60 degrees water it can be out of the water awhile (though I don't encourage tht) and take off hard and strong and probably spray you in the process. In 78 degrees water a fish out of water the same amount of time often takes awhile at boatside to revive and SLOWLY swims away. I think quick and gentle handling is ALWAYS important but just on the water experience proves fish are more stressed as the water temp rises than fish in cooler water. The weight fish carry often goes down in warm water too. Studdies are great but I think we can use common sense on this issue.
Is 80 the magic number? I think it's close. Last night after work I went out for two hours and got a little 35. I hadn't been out for probably 3 weeks and just needed to go. I had it out of the water maybe 10 seconds tops and it swam away slow but immediately, 5 minutes later I seen it's fins surface as it was trying to go down, I went over to it but the fish had gone down again. My electronics read 78 degrees. To me it's scary when a little 35 seems to be having a hard time. Imagine how a 50 would do... and in only 78 degree water, not 85. |
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| You guys are all making true points about water temperature and oxygen but fail to prove one thing and that is does it kill fish or better yet does it significantly increase delayed mortality (just because it swims away slowly doesn't mean it kills them).
So it puts more stress on the fish when the water temps are higher but the fact is you are putting stress on fish no matter what if you are catching them.
I have seen fish die for no apparent reason with water temps well below 80 and have yet to see a fish die for myself when water temps are 80 or above. |
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Posts: 619
| heres a good example......had water temps around 80 4 or 5 yrs ago....hooked a 50 on topraider....average fight not too bad, no jumping.... had it barely hooked. it actually popped off about 8 to 10 ft from the boat. so i lost it really. it came unhooked and just sat there on the surface. i used my trolling motor went over to it and put my floating measuring stick by and measured. fish never came out of the water, never in a net, barely hooked and it wouldnt swim away. i sat there for about 30 minutes w/ it just holding upright and wouldnt swim away. |
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Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Slow Rollin - 7/14/2010 6:17 PM
heres a good example......had water temps around 80 4 or 5 yrs ago....hooked a 50 on topraider....average fight not too bad, no jumping.... had it barely hooked. it actually popped off about 8 to 10 ft from the boat. so i lost it really. it came unhooked and just sat there on the surface. i used my trolling motor went over to it and put my floating measuring stick by and measured. fish never came out of the water, never in a net, barely hooked and it wouldnt swim away. i sat there for about 30 minutes w/ it just holding upright and wouldnt swim away.
That's amazing! I've never heard a story like that one. Must have been something to just "motor over" to a 50! LOL! |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | I do this and it seems to help. If the fish doesn't take off right away (usually the case if you need to take pictures). Then I'll hold the fish steady for a little while, and then I sort of point the fish downwards in the water and give it a good shove. This seems to get the fish headed toward the cooler water and get water flowing though it's gills. The fish also seem to start to swim on their own. Rather than hold the fish by the tail and have it try to get away, which seems to me just tiring the fish out more, I give it a push and most of the time they swim off and are never seen again. Best thing to do is to just get the fish along side the boat, grab the hook with a pliers and get the hook out with out touching the fish. 95% of the time they will scoot off like they where never hooked. Once in a while in warm water you will need to work with a fish, but getting them swiming toward cooler water seems to help. Doug Johnson |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | I think the major reason we quit fishing muskies is because of dying fish after someone has caught fish in high temps. Its just not once but multiple times. I think we can all agree we can fish them another day or head north where the temps are better for the survival of the fish happens. |
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Posts: 539
Location: WI | Guest - 7/14/2010 4:09 PM
john skarie - 7/14/2010 2:31 PM
The articles wrtitten in EA by Rod and Dan are written by scientists who fish. Dan has a PhD in fisheries and Rod is a research biologist. Both work for the MNDNR.
If you want credible information than read it.
JS
Whos to say they do not have a biased opinion? No disrespect intended but did they put transmitters in all of the fish they caught during high water temps to see if they die or not? These are die hard musky fishermen giving you reasons not to fish without pure results to the conclusion.
It's all part of their master plan. Spend much of their time acting like they care about the resource and feeding this warm water crap b/c they know we're gullable idiots and won't fish them then and they will have the lake to themselves. 
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Posts: 224
Location: Madison | It's not an either/or thing. Muskies don't automatically die when the water temps hit 80 degrees. But studies show they are more likely to do so.
Muskies don't automatically die when you use a swallow hook sucker rig either. Some guys still use them because they're ignorant of the effects, or just don't care enough about the resource.
"Guest" will not be convinced no matter what because he really, really wants to go muskie fishing. There's nothing illegal about fishing in high temps, or using a swallow sucker rig in Wisconsin either. But the fact that "die hard" musky biologists recommend not fishing tells you how serious the effects of higher water temps are. They (and the rest of us who don't fish in high water temps) want to fish as badly as the anonymous poster. But killing fish that takes 10 years to get to a nice size just doesn't make sense.
Read the lake-link posts, in the last week there have been fish broken off on a crankbait and a topraider on Waubesa alone. That's just the fish that someone has POSTED about. Muskies in a pressured lake have enough to worry about from the guys who aren't serious muskie fisherman, they don't need to deal with high temps at the same time as pressure from the guys who know what they're doing. |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | It's frequently 95 degrees down here in Knoxville these day. The water is running around 90 degrees. The concern for fish mortality is primary, but I don't enjoy "melting down" myself.
Therefore, it's time to watch my Musky DVD's for the 100th time and simply wait.
If I was in a position to take a trip way up north I would.
Ho Hum. |
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Posts: 8774
| iDoWhatImTold - 7/14/2010 12:50 PM
I understand water quality goes down the higher the water temps, but you would think fish living in such conditions would adapt right?
[...]
No more than a polar bear could be expected to adapt to a tropical climate...
Muskies native range ends at about the latitude where 80 degree water temperatures occur. They can't be expected to fare well in those temperatures because they basically don't belong there.
That said, there is a big difference between 80 degree surface temps in a deep clear lake as opposed to a shallow weedy lake. The temperature may reach 80 on the surface |
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Posts: 314
Location: Bristol, IN | BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...These muskies DO NOT HIBERNATE @ ANY WATER TEMPERATURE. THEY STILL EAT. The one I Lost last week was in 82.5 degree surface temp. I had an upper 40" class muskie come up and tried inhaling my Large Rubber Bait in 84.0 degree water later that same day. JUST SHUT UP & FISH.
Life's too short to worry about such minuscule B.S. |
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| I always figured that people aren't fishing when the water temps are that warm mostly because the weather is a bit too hot for the fisherman, not a matter of the water being too warm for the fish. |
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Posts: 20211
Location: oswego, il | Nobody said they won't eat at any temperature. We can be careful but we are still going to have fish that are badly hooked and take extra time. All dead fish don't float or die immediately either. Does every one die when they are caught in temps above 80 degrees? No but it sure increases the chances.
Not every lake is the same either, some lakes are terrible when the water is hot, seen one(crappie fishing) thermocline with no fish marked below 8 feet in mid 80 temps. |
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Posts: 999
| The warmer the water tempeture the higher their metabolism becomes and the more they have to feed! Guys look at fall as the best time to musky fish but actually there are alot more and longer feeding windows in the warm water period, this right now is the feeding period. Thats why when fall rolls around they are so fat. They aren't putting on the feedbag then, they allready have they dont just turn fat overnite come Oct 1st. I wouldnt suggest fishing them in 80 plus degree water temps though. |
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| You either care about the fishery or you don't. It either matters to you if a fish dies, or it doesnt. I don't care what other anglers do. I will worry about me. I make my own choice every year about the same time. |
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Posts: 462
Location: Antioch, IL | Not sure why you would think it is speculative or unproven.
FACT: As water (fresh or salt) temperature rises it's ability to retain oxygen decreases. Higher temperatures equal more biological activity that can use up great amounts of oxygen, which will lower pH due to more carbonic acid. Higher water temps will increase the decomposition speed of waste which means more CO2 and acidification from nitrate generation. This will create low oxygen levels. It also means more bacteria, parasites and fungus. These equal more chance of disease. Fish stressed from being caught (Loss of slime coat from handling and over exertion) are highly susceptible to infection and disease. Fish swims away and gets a parasite. You go home happy. The fish goes belly up in a week and becomes a source for more disease.
At the magic number of 80 degrees the oxygen levels begin to dramatically decrease (if you haven't noticed before, water has all kinds of "set" temperatures that it does amazing things...like freezing, boiling and evaporating. These are not general temperatures that these things occur. That happen at a specific temp, not 5 degrees this way or that way). The metabolism of all aquatic life increases with rising temps. A muskie will need roughly double the amount of oxygen to survive in 80 degree waters then it would to survive in 70 degree waters. A caught and played fish will use massive amounts of oxygen in the process and if there is little oxygen available to replenish itself, the fish dies. (The bigger the fish the greater the chance of mortality) There is nothing speculative about it.
Aquatic life does not follow the same laws of nature that we do. They do not like change in their environment. They can adjust ,some better than others, but they all need time to adjust and gradual changes. ("Golly G whiz, the fishing shut down for days after that (insert weather pattern here) came through" That is because it is taking the fish days to adjust to the temperature / pressure changes.
All water is different. Many other factors go into it's ability to hold oxygen than just temperature.
--Water quality is a huge factor. High levels of phosphates and nitrates (Fertilizer and run off from farm fields) will greatly decrease waters ability to hold oxygen. It also increases the chance of disease and will lower ph levels. (More stress on fish)
--Surface area in relation to total water volume.( Oxygen dissolves by diffusion from the surrounding air at the surface)
--current (or the lack of) more current and surface agitation equals more surface area for more oxygen exchange to occur.
I could continue, but I'm sick of typing. There are always variables to consider, but once the water is hovering around 80 degrees consistently, muskie fishing is not the best idea if you actually care for the fish. Just because you are not educated on a subject doesn't mean that the information is not out there. To ignore the facts so you can justify what you want to do, that is just selfish.
I worked in the wholesale fish business for many years. Shipping fish from all over the world. Dead fish for me equaled lost inventory. EVERYBODY in the wholesale trade knows that you do not put extra stress on any fish when the temps are over 80 degrees. One time I had a shipment of 1000 fish (all different sizes and species) that were delayed in customs and the containers reached 83 degrees for about 4 hours. I lost 20% before the end of the day and 80% by the end of the week.
I've had fish sit in bags of water, for over 48 hours, that they can't even turn around in. Bigger fish with their backs sticking out of the water. If the water stays around 76 degrees I average a 2% mortality rate.
Later (It will be hot tomorrow so I need to get ready to go bass fishing)
Dave
Edited by Fish and Whistle 7/14/2010 10:40 PM
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Guest...are you trying to get an answer that makes you feel better for your decision to fish in warmer water temps?
Others that fish in warm water temps...thanks for helping reduce the muskie population! |
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Posts: 123
| Tom Betka and I put together some information a couple years ago that some of you may find interesting. Here it is if you'd like to have a look.
Muskie Fishing In Extreme Conditions
By Brad Waldera and Tom Betka
There are certain fishing conditions that require special precautions to be taken, or that extra care be given to the fish in order to reduce overstressing Muskies, and help minimize the occurrence of delayed mortality. The information contained in this article may help you in making a decision that could ensure that less fish die from delayed mortality.
Muskie fishermen release the majority of the fish that they catch. Because of this, there are certain steps we should be taking to ensure that we’re releasing fish healthy, and in good condition. This article will try to explain how taking special precautions in various fishing situations can greatly increase the survival rate of the Muskies we release back into the lake.
Two of the main topics summarized in this article are lactic acidosis, a buildup of lactic acid that can cause abnormal heart rhythms (potentially leading to a sudden stoppage of the heart), and hypoxemia, which is a condition of an abnormally low blood oxygen level. These two issues account for a significant portion of the delayed mortality following the catch & release process. Fishermen can have some control over these issues by simply being more aware of their effects on Muskies, and by changing some of the ways in which we fish for them.
Lactic Acid is a natural by-product of functioning muscle tissue. When fish have normal blood oxygen levels, their muscles can function aerobically with very little lactic acid produced. When the supply of oxygen in their blood is depleted, more and more lactic acid is produced and they may experience numerous metabolic abnormalities. This condition is further worsened by the hypoxemia resulting from a prolonged fight in water low in dissolved oxygen, or from long periods of air exposure while the fish is handled and photographed.
Hypoxia means low oxygen, and refers here to a fish’s lack of obtaining adequate oxygen. This lack of oxygen causes their pH level to decrease and they become more acidic. That in turn leads to the interference of oxygen getting delivered to the tissues, such as the heart. As the heart becomes hypoxemic, it becomes more susceptible to abnormal rhythms. In periods of pronounced hypoxemia, the heart may even cease to function normally, possibly resulting in the death of the fish.
Many Muskie fishermen believe in using stout tackle and fighting the fish quickly without over-stressing the animal. When fighting a fish on the line, lactic acid begins to build in their muscle tissue. The longer the fight lasts, the higher the level of lactic acid produced. Once the level of lactic acid reaches the “point of no return”, it may cause the fish to die. They may swim away at the time they’re released, but can often die many hours later.
Higher water temperatures can magnify the oxygen and pH imbalance in the fish, and this increases the importance of shortening the fight. To reduce lactic acid levels and restore the normal pH of the blood, exhausted fish need oxygen fast, and the only way to get oxygen to the fish quickly is by allowing water to flow through its gills. Therefore many fishermen are now choosing to simply unhook the fish in the net, to avoid handling them at all. Unhooking and releasing Muskies in a timely manner will allow them to recover much sooner, and could mean the difference between life and death for the fish.
As most anglers know, water temperature is the main factor in determining how much oxygen is available to the fish. Because warm water isn’t capable of holding as much dissolved oxygen as cold water, lakes with low oxygen levels can also increase the occurrence of hypoxemia in angled fish, potentially increasing delayed mortality. Many serious Muskie fishermen will not fish for Muskies at all once the water reaches certain temperatures, such as 80 degrees. In the warm summer months when water temperatures are highest, many Muskie anglers choose to pursue other species of fish that are less sensitive than Muskies to the effects of low dissolved oxygen levels.
Fishing in high winds can also increase the risk of delayed mortality, especially if you’re fishing alone. It may be quite difficult to control the boat while playing the fish, which can prolong the fight time and increase the occurrence of lactic acidosis. Concurrently, if the water temperature is high, the fish may also become hypoxemic. Fishermen should strongly consider whether they should fish these locations in these scenarios or choose a different approach.
As Muskie fishermen, we have a great deal of control over many of the factors affecting delayed mortality, simply by limiting the amount of time we keep a fish out of the water. While the incidence of delayed mortality has been estimated to be in the range of 5-30% the exact figure can never be known, as there are many determining factors. Therefore we recommend that every effort be made to keep delayed mortality deaths to a minimum.
There are many other situations that also require taking precautions to help minimize the risk of delayed mortality, such as targeting deep-water fish. To achieve neutral buoyancy and have the ability to stay at any depth it may want to, a Muskie has to be able to take gas into the bladder and let gas out of it. When fish are rapidly brought to the surface from deep water, they may experience a rupture of the swim bladder, possibly allowing a gas bubble to enter the bloodstream. This gas bubble could then find its way to the gills, brain, (or other vital organ) and thus block vital blood flow from the downstream tissue. This type of injury is similar to that seen in humans who rapidly ascend from deep water. In addition, if the fish is caught from water deeper than about 50 feet, it may experience decompression sickness, (the bends), just like humans do. Due to these concerns, it has been suggested that Muskie fishermen avoid pursuing deep-water fish if they intend to release them.
Certain care should also be taken to ensure the release of healthy fish when fishing at night. In many instances the water temperature will be more beneficial to the well being of the fish in the cooler evening hours, but there are other issues that come up. You’ll want to make sure you’re aware of the location of your release tools and also minimize the amount of time the fish is in the net.
Cold air temperatures may also have a slight effect on the Muskie. When taken from the water in very cold air temperatures, there is a risk of freezing to the fish’s eyes and/or gills. Some consider it to be a concern, but at this point it doesn’t seem to be a big issue.
As much as we enjoy fishing for Muskies, there are times throughout the year when it can prove detrimental to their survival for us to fish for them without first considering the scenarios we’re faced with that particular day. If certain steps are taken, we can ensure that Muskies will survive and prosper for the next generation of fishermen.
Contact Brad Waldera at 701-642-1952 if you’d be interested in a brochure version of this article. You can also contact me at [email protected], and I can e-mail the brochure version to you.
A special thank you goes out to Tom Betka for his advice and assistance with this project. It was well appreciated.
References
Thomas Betka, MD, BS (Aquatic Biology)
Medical Director, Hyperbaric Medicine & Wound Care, Aurora Baycare Medical Center, Green Bay, Wisconsin
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/articles/catch_release.shtml
Casselman, S. J. 2005. Catch-and-release angling: a review with guidelines for proper fish handling practices. Fish & Wildlife Branch. Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Peterborough, Ontario. 26 p.
Thanks.
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| Interesting thread... Speaks a ton towards the tendency of human nature and rationalizing most anything. It is obvious and common knowledge (common knowledge is fact that has been proven a minimum of three times in seperate scientific studies and printed/published) that with increased water temperature comes increased mortality in muskie angling. A number of factors must be considered, as well stated in several pieces from this thread - depth, total water column temperature, oxygen content, out of water time, and on and on...
But also consider a quote told to me by an old psychologist while taking my graduate classes in dealing with folks with emotional and behavioral disorders (muskie fishermen? HA!) - "Remember - you cannot rationalize with the irrational..." Some of that is going on here...
Taking all environmental factors into consideration we all need to be responsible as when to fish and when not to fish. Until it is made illegal, of course there will be folks that fish 'skies when water temps approach 90 degrees or whatever. Many of these will be able to easily rationalize it away within the course of one or two sentences - that is human nature. Same with going out and catching and releasing 60 or 70 walleyes a day - is there going to be mortality - yep - maybe more than simply catching, keeping our limit and going back to the dock; but do we still do it and allow it. No scientist is going to give us hard numbers on when it is OK to fish and then not OK - there is a sliding scale where mortality increases - grey area. Individual decision making...
But let's not waste our time trying to "rationalize with the irrational" or those that are simply desiring to be argumentative regarding the obvious.
The fish are biting around here - time to go fishing.
DC |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I agree w DC....people can talk themselves into thinking just about anything is ok if they want to...to me, I err on the side of caution as when water temps have been 77+, up to 83, for an extended period of time to me that is time to quit musky fishing and chase bluegills... imho the guys that simply will fish for them regardless of studies proving they are putting more stress/harm on the fish by catching them in those temps are simply selfish.... do you have to fish ? do you need to fish? no, you simply want to fish.... the resource to me is more important than possibly padding my numbers, or even catching a big fish.... some see it that way, some don't... I also think the guys that know what they are doing are the ones that should set the example...we have all seen relative newbies in "safe" water temps mis handle fish, take way too many pics etc etc....do we want them out there when the temps are even higher??? I don't.
my 2 cents.
Edited by BNelson 7/15/2010 9:00 AM
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| Lets not get carried away here. I simply mean when the temperatures are right around 80. We are not talking 85 degree plus water temperatures here.
You can not tell me you guys simply do not fish when the temperatures in Minnesota and Canada are 80 degrees when you call off work for an entire week only to get up there after a 10+ hour drive to find the water temperatures are too high.
With this heat wave right now I would not be surprised if water temperatures were not around 80 degrees everywhere Muskies swim yet I'm still seeing lots of pictures posted..........................................
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| Looks like we have some cooler weather coming in.
Good luck to those that have have been patient and thank you for posting your opinions and facts for the less informed.
I seldom fish in water over 80 degrees but when I do I take extreme caution and would suggest water releases. |
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Posts: 51
| A quick search got these two titles about walleye mortality in warm water, Walleye and Sauger Mortality Associated with Live-Release Tournaments on the Lake Winnebago System, Wisconsin; and Factors Influencing the Hooking Mortality of Walleyes Caught by Recreational Anglers on Mille Lacs, Minnesota. I found no muskellunge studies in my 3 minute search but these are still applicable. Both were printed in the North American Journal of Fisheries Management and found that as water temps increased so did angling and/or delayed mortality. |
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My thoughts,
I don't fish muskies when the water temps are in the 80's. I'm not talking surface and temporary temperatures on the top couple feet, I mean temps in the middle of the water column. Only way to know is the temps holding high no matter the winds and location on the lake, or a thermometer. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Using what we know/learned leads to common sense telling us what to do and what not to do. We don’t “need” studies to prove certain things to know what is beneficial.
For example:
-Is there a study to tell us to shut off the power when working with electricity (maybe there is), and if you don’t you have a good chance of getting zapped?
I don’t know of one, and really don’t care. However common sense tells me I would rather not find out by leaving the power on as there are plenty of examples out there illustrating what happens when you don’t.
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | " You can not tell me you guys simply do not fish when the temperatures in Minnesota and Canada are 80 degrees when you call off work for an entire week only to get up there after a 10+ hour drive to find the water temperatures are too high. "
I don't think your example is what most of this discussion is centering around. If someone only has one week of vacation per year and they drive up to Mn or Canada then yes, I feel it is absolutely unfair to expect that person or family to not fish. However, is it necessary for an Indiana resident to be fishing now, or is it wise for someone to be planning a getaway to Webster Lake in July or August to fish Muskies? The answer is probably not, seeing as how those bodies of water can generally be fished 9-10 months out of the year.
....ugh, this really shouldn't be that difficult or complicated to figure out |
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| drives some people crazy to see folks fishing for Musky in warm temps...
drives some people to be lectured on every topic in musky fishing...
for you super ethicists who never ever even scratch a fish with your 8/0 hooks and 100lb test, do you tailgate on the highway or drive 15 mph over the limit? (of course) That puts other HUMAN BEINGS at increased danger to being killed or injured by you refined philosophers.
how bout I lecture you about that? you wouldn't listen or change your habits so layoff the lectures.
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Posts: 580
| OK, I'll enter the fray. I'm having a tough time with some of the logic here. I'm aware of the articles from the MNDNR biologists. I can also recall a WDNR biologist (formally of Missouri where surface water temps are typically well into the mid-80's annually) stating opinions which were not nearly as fatalistic.
One poster above says that:
Fish and Whistle - 7/14/2010 10:27 PM
At the magic number of 80 degrees the oxygen levels begin to dramatically decrease (if you haven't noticed before, water has all kinds of "set" temperatures that it does amazing things...like freezing, boiling and evaporating. These are not general temperatures that these things occur. That happen at a specific temp, not 5 degrees this way or that way).
Dave
Do you have any link, or can you reference any authority that supports this? I'd be really interested in seeing that. Because, from what I've seen and read on the subject, 80 degrees is not a "magic" number. Rather, there's a sliding scale. Basically, as water becomes warmer, the POTENTIAL for an unsuccessful release becomes higher.
I understand that we all would love to have clear demarcations to guide our choices. Clear, bright-line rules certainly make decision-making easier. And since 80 degrees is a nice "rounded number" that most everyone can agree certainly is "warm", most guys seem to gravitate to it as a cut off point...and I generally do the same.
But where the logic seems to go south is with the opinions viewing this issue in black/white, rather than in shades of gray, and then condemn other anglers. I think it's "missing the forest for the trees". I can't quite grasp why 76.9, 77.8, 78.5, 79.1, and 79.6 degrees are all OK...but at 80.0 degrees, oh boy, now if you fish, you are a selfish fish killer.
Surface water temps generally hit the upper 70's every summer throughout the vast majority of the entire muskie's range. So do some of you think that it's unethical to fish during the summer months? 77 is too hot? Why not 76 or 75? Those are pretty "warm" too...again, we are talking about 2-3 degrees fahrenheit here. Unless the post above, which does assert that 80 degrees is indeed a "magic number", is correct, we are not talking about major differences scientifically. (The difference between 75.3F and 78.7F is 1 degree Celsius, 24 and 25, respectively). Is it really true that the difference between 1 degree Celsius is a substantial determining factor as to whether a released fish lives or dies? Does that same 1 degree Celsius really determine whether an angler is ethical or unethical?
Personally, I believe that extra care and precautions need to be taken with all releases at all times, but especially during all summer months while temps in the 70's. I'll generally stop fishing with water temps sustained at 80 or higher, although daily short-term spikes from the mid/upper 70's up to 80 during the hottest part of the day don't particularly bother me (except that I'm definitely doing everything I can minimize handling with any fish caught under these circumstances).
But I'm certainly not going to call out other anglers as irrational or unethical just because they don't draw their line at what appears to be an arbitrary 80 degree fahrenheit mark.
And I honestly believe this is potentially a slippery slope. Let's not forget that when we fish, we are purposefully trying to impale a fish's face with large sharp hooks, then wrestle them to the boat, then take them out of the water where they can't breathe. There's a potential for killing a fish via such means every time we cast a bait, regardless of season. Yes, that potential increases during the warmest water season. But why 80? Why not 78 or 77 as has been suggested? And if 77 is bad, well, 75-76 can't be very good either, can it? We might as well stop fishing during the entire summer, after all, the potential for mortality is much higher than in the spring and fall, right? And that's the real problem here, right? The increased potential for mortality?
Sorry for going on and on. But if concerns over potential mortality from high water temps is the driving force of the ethics of this discussion, I think that educating anglers on proper release protocol and tactics during the entire warm water period (the summer months) is far more important than drawing an arbitrary line whenever surface temps creep to the 80 degree mark. (The Betka/Waldera article above seems to do a nice job of that).
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Posts: 123
| Many Minnesota guys target other fish that can handle the warmer temps better when it gets to 80 degrees, such as Bass. Others choose to fish at night instead of during the day, or fish very early or late in the day. I'm not sure how much drop the temperature falls at night compared to daytime, but every bit helps. There are alternatives to simply not fishing. |
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Posts: 238
| Weather it is or isnt hard on the fish in 80 degree temps i am not taking any chances i just go bass fishing to get my fishing fix.
Theres lots of time to catch muskies during more favorable conditions.
Muskies as a rescource are to important to me personally for me to risk killing them for the sake of catching one in 80 degree water.
For me switching to another species for a while is a welcome change and a breath of fresh air,it gives me a whole new drive and motivation to be succsessful at catching another type of fish and also makes me appreciate muskies that much more when i start targeting them full time again.
Its like getting two muskie openers a year. |
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| Many see temps around 80 on the depthfinder and give it up. The fact is, on most lakes, the actual water temp is probably up to 5 degrees less than that. I have noticed this in the metro this year. I'll have about 80 surface temp, then wind or clouds or something will come along and it will drop to 77 or less.
Then again, when the temps are high go fish in the evening/at night. This gives the fish a good 12 hrs of cooler water temps to recover.
Looking forward to some cool nights! |
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Posts: 432
Location: Eagan, MN | I don't have the answer but I'll throw my 2 cents (or so) in the mix.
I know of no study which proves a brick dropped on my head is bad for my health, but anecdotal evidence and common sense tell me not to do it.
I like Dougj's idea and I'm sure it works to some extent, but it is also intertwined w/ Sworral's point about surface temps vs. various depths. You don't know until you check.
I used to keep tropical fish as a kid. Most tropical fish had a preferred range of maybe 10-12 degrees, but big fluctuations even within that range were bad and potentially fatal.
IMO there is no 'magic' temp, but for the purpose of a guideline what temp should we use?
Water releases become even more important as temps rise. We need more discussion on this subject, and I don't think anyone is prepared to speak in absolute terms at this point in time.
And finally, this is a message board, the whole concept is to express different opinions, so don't cry about being 'lectured' to. Telling somebody to 'mind their own business' isn't a real compelling argument for your point of view.
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Just keeping an open mind I looked up some water quality reports to find out some DO (Dissolved Oxygen) numbers as water temps increase. All I have to say is don’t automatically assume the DO numbers are below acceptable as water temps drop. Besides temp I believe there are a lot of other environmental factors that affect the DO on any particular lake, and portions of that lake. In some cases of reports I looked at the DO number actually was higher on a day the the H2O temps were higher!
I don’t have to bring it up, but every lake is different in DO levels. I have looked at some the even at 70’ the Do levels were sufficient in the summertime. Below are two pics of Do level of two lakes for the same year. Take from it what you will. I had a hard time finding reports of H2O temps above 80° in the short time searching. You will see however how high the DO level is on LSG when over 80°. However, don’t take that as always being the case.
Not arguing one way or another, but rather just trying to bring forth what may be interesting to some.
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Lot of good points here....One thing I consider that a couple touched on and think might be more of a driving force is temp throughtout the water column.
If I am in Northern MN or Canada even and I get a 80 degree surface temp..that could be a LOT different then being in Indy and getting an 80 degree surface temp. I think the temp profile of the water column might have a greater impact on the risk of mortality to the fish.
One thing I would be interested (as a scientist) in seeing would be the affects of water column temperature gradient.
If you had 100 fish in water column A and a 100 fish in water column B which one would have a greater risk of fatality to the fish?
Column A, 83 F surface temps with a quick graduation down in temp after first 2 feet, down to a cool 68 ABOVE the thermocline.
Column B, 75F temps down to the thermocline.
What I am getting at, is there a factor of "shock" for the temperature swing, from bringing a cool water fish up from the depths to figh on the surface, be netted, unhooked, worked to regain itself, and release.
Is a fish better off that is in shallow 75F water caught and faught the same way and release the same way better off? Or is that fish at more risk?
Honestly I don't know, I am sure we all have opinions...and 99% of us are not fisheries biologists..
But I am curious.
I for one have a personal opinion that surface temps are important, but I am more concerned with the overall temp of the water column. To me, 80F water temps in early june is very different then 80F water temps in late July or AUg.
Cory
Edited by C.Painter 7/15/2010 12:46 PM
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| I have seen fish swim in and out of a creek that reads 68 degrees and a river that reads anywhere from 78-85 throughout the day with no apparent effect on them. In and out they would swim.
How about in the summer when you see Muskies porpoise over deep water?
I think fish are conditioned to there environment.
Just because the water is over 80 degrees doesn't mean they head for deep water thats closer to the 75 degree mark and the only way to catch them is to cast or troll out deep and rip them up to the warmer surface temps. Some actually stay shallow and prefer the warmer water for whatever reason.
Lots and lots of contradictions in this thread *rolls eyes. |
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Posts: 93
Location: Minneapolis, MN | I would say 80 degrees is the magical temp when all the Guests come out to play. |
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| So are you guys saying you see 80 on the depth finder once in mid July and then you hang it up until September? What if water temps hover near that mark, you will give up >6wks of season because of it? At what point do you call it quits? Just wondering what extreme you take it to.
Maybe I'll stop fishing with hooks from now on.
That last line was a joke btw. Don't attack me . |
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Posts: 431
| On Kinkaid in IL there were 84 degree surface temps over Memorial day weekend. So basically I gave up on June, July, August and probably the first half of September. Can't wait for LOTW in a week. |
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| Try keeping minnows or suckers alive in the mid summer when the water temps are in the 80's. They last an hour or two at best. Then try keeping some suckers alive in the late fall. They live for days and days and days.
That's all the information I need. Warm water kills fish. It's that simple. Fish are way more hardy in the spring and fall and can live way longer in moderate to cold temps.
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Posts: 425
Location: Roseau | How do fish know what the water temp is? |
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| Fisher - 7/15/2010 2:27 PM
How do fish know what the water temp is?
..........They measure it with their scales!
lol, lame I know. Somebody needed to lighten the mood in here. |
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Posts: 3147
| metro anglers have somewhat of an option,,,If you still want to fish muskies you can switch over to the many stocked tiger lakes,,nobody wants to lose a tiger but if you do lose one to stress they dont reproduce and on average live 7 years has compared to pures which live much longer,,lesser of two evils has far high water temps
Edited by happy hooker 7/15/2010 2:53 PM
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| They don't know what temperature it is just as they could not tell how overstressed they may become during an angling battle with hot water temps and lower oxygen levels. They can feel temperature differences but it means little when they can't live in their comfort zone.
Yes, people stop fishing for muskies when the water hits 80. I do, I go north or fish for something else. Simple as that. As stated earlier, it's all in what you really care about.
Here is a story, told to me first hand accounts by both parties. I will not name names or the lake. The angler told me of a trip when they caught an incredible amount of fish, high water temps, fish stacked at a certain depth. I heard through the grapevine then asked the guide who seen the floaters afterwards. The fish seen were over 10% of what was told to me by the person who caught them. Since all dead fish don't float that total could have been alot higher. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I don’t think the big issues at hand is just “warm” or “hot” water temps. I believe it’s the fact that you just got done really, really stressing a fish out, and then try releasing it in warm water. Take the above statement about minnows and suckers staying alive for example. Unhooked suckers will live several days in the fall in a livewell. However, hook one of those suckers, and expect it to live the same amount of time as an unhooked one I can bet you will be unhappy most of the time. That’s in cool/cold water. Heck even some unhooked suckers tend to croak in a livewell before days end of day one. Why? It’s the stress. Some handle it better than others. Now throw in the equation of warmer water where it is known to increase stress and the probability of death increases. Usually, but not always, as water temps go up DO goes down. Look at the two data sheets I supplied earlier. Throw in perhaps a fairly calm day with very little waves (more waves could increase DO I believe) and that warm water now becomes more stagnant.
We are stressing fish no matter when we catch them. However, we can take precautions in how much stress is forced onto a fish (netting, unhooking, taking pictures, accidently dropping, ripping the skin under the gill plates, etc…), and the less we do the better. So as the water warms, we should always think about how much we should handle that fish. Water releases *could be the least stressful, and thus would be preferred during “warm” water if you are out fishing. Others choose not to fish.
I would challenge those that quit fishing for musky, but target other species. Why acceptable for those fish? I heard bass can handle higher water temps, but that I believe is when they are not being stressed. Unless you are keeping the fish to eat I think it is wrong to accuse others of fishing in high temps for one fish, and it’s ok for you to fish for others. Perhaps the Bass crowd would be unhappy to hear you are fishing for bass in 80°+ water. You should take into account the health of all fish, and not just those that you have the most “feelings” for.
I think there was a point a number was needed to make a blanket statement of when not to fish. It may be conservative, or heck it may even be not conservative enough. What if a study determined that mortality of a C&R fish quadrupled when the water temps hit 75°. Some would quite fishing at shy of 75°, but guaranteed others would keep fishing beyond regardless of a studies results. Some care about fisheries, and some think it’s an unlimited resource that THEY don’t need to worry about. Some are in between.
*I say could as sometimes the part of trying to remove hooks can be time consuming. The longer it takes to remove the hooks, the more stress you are adding. The number one way to reduce stress in warm/hot water would be to simply not target them.
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Posts: 2361
| ToddM - 7/15/2010 2:56 PM
They don't know what temperature it is just as they could not tell how overstressed they may become during an angling battle with hot water temps and lower oxygen levels. They can feel temperature differences but it means little when they can't live in their comfort zone.
Yes, people stop fishing for muskies when the water hits 80. I do, I go north or fish for something else. Simple as that. As stated earlier, it's all in what you really care about.
Here is a story, told to me first hand accounts by both parties. I will not name names or the lake. The angler told me of a trip when they caught an incredible amount of fish, high water temps, fish stacked at a certain depth. I heard through the grapevine then asked the guide who seen the floaters afterwards. The fish seen were over 10% of what was told to me by the person who caught them. Since all dead fish don't float that total could have been alot higher.
Were they using a famous all metal "plug"?? |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I don't stop fishing... Then what?
And Doug, for someone with as many fish pictures as you... There's nothing wrong with a picture.
I think the real question is why are the big tough muskies such Pu****? If a fish dies, it dies. I had my first musky die on my this season and it beat me up the whole night - didn't even have fun after that and ended up losing the excitement for the one I caught... I went home, thought about it some more and decided, who knows how many musky I've caught and this is the first time I had one die on me - not bad. It ate a Magdawg completely, only leader sticking out of its mouth. It wasn't the brief and careful surgery cutting the O-rings and carefully removing the hooks that killed her, it was the fight to the boat with that thing all the way down and the other reason was the water temp being so high.
You might aswell not bowhunt the rut, bucks are more susceptible to being killed then... |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Since I brought up DO, here is a good link for those interested in learning about it.
http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/oxygen.html
Sam the difference with bowhunting the rut is we WANT to KILL the deer. We don’t want musky dead.
The points brought up about rubber killing fish are also valid and I know some that have stopped using them because of it. Yes, there are people that quit using rubber due to them killing too many fish.
The bigger the fish, the more stressed they get. Think about a 150 lb man or women versus say a 400 lb person. Lets assume both are out of shape. I do believe the 400 lb person is more susceptible to stress especially when exertion occurs.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | CiscoKid - 7/15/2010 3:34 PM Sam the difference with bowhunting the rut is we WANT to KILL the deer. We don’t want musky dead.
Touche`, Travis, point taken.
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | What is interesting in what I read on DO levels is that it is lower at night. Soooooooooo, if those that fish during warm water times only do it at night, are we really doing it under “better” conditions? Sure the water may be a bit cooler, but on the flip side the DO levels are lower. That is if DO levels are important to fish… Splitting hairs perhaps if the DO levels are only dropping several decimal points and still above the 4-5 range. |
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Posts: 999
| There was an article in Musky Hunter years back on dissolved oxygen level readings and finding fish. By having a dissolved oxygen measuring device you could find areas that will hold more fish this time of year. For instance windblown areas or incoming streams,rivers, or creeks. But I do agree that over 80 degree water temps are too warm for ski's.
Edited by Mr Musky 7/15/2010 4:28 PM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | So I guess Rod and Dan are fisheries biologists with an agenda?? That's cool with me as I'm pretty sure the agenda involves creating a great muskie fishery in MN and then also sustaining it.
The deer analogy brings up an interesting point to me. I was always raised that you only take "clean" shots at deer. It was the ethical and sportsmanlike thing to do. Yah we are all out to kill deer, but there are acceptable and unacceptable practices among hunters.
I guess that's how I view muskies. I want to aware of my impact on a fish that I plan on fishing for the rest of my life.
So why not try to have as little impact on the resource you want to continue to utilize?
It's about respect and restraint in your pursuit. In hot water periods I either won't fish for muskies, or go barbless only with water release. I guess I view that as being along the same lines as why I won't gut shoot a deer if I can help it.
JS
Edited by john skarie 7/15/2010 6:27 PM
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Posts: 8774
| lecture me - 7/15/2010 10:48 AM
drives some people crazy to see folks fishing for Musky in warm temps...
drives some people to be lectured on every topic in musky fishing...
for you super ethicists who never ever even scratch a fish with your 8/0 hooks and 100lb test, do you tailgate on the highway or drive 15 mph over the limit? (of course) That puts other HUMAN BEINGS at increased danger to being killed or injured by you refined philosophers.
how bout I lecture you about that? you wouldn't listen or change your habits so layoff the lectures.
The more replies I read like yours, the more I think I like muskies more than I like people... |
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Posts: 462
Location: Antioch, IL | One poster above says that:
Fish and Whistle - 7/14/2010 10:27 PM
At the magic number of 80 degrees the oxygen levels begin to dramatically decrease (if you haven't noticed before, water has all kinds of "set" temperatures that it does amazing things...like freezing, boiling and evaporating. These are not general temperatures that these things occur. That happen at a specific temp, not 5 degrees this way or that way).
Dave
Sorry I should have put "magic" in quotes. I was stealing that term from another post. It "IS" a sliding scale and if you put my statement back in the context of my entire post I go on to say that there are so many variables that can effect DO in combination with temp. 80 does not have the same effect on all water. Now if you take everything else out of the equation (which is impossible) Waters ability to retain DO takes the biggest drop at 27 degrees Centigrade (80.60F) and continues downward as temp go up. AGAIN, this is running tests in a lab on distilled water. My knowledge on water comes from 30 years of fascination and studying the earliest form of the internet, books. I have a wall full of them on water parameters and fish. You are welcome to come over and read them all. I sited enough references in college to never start doing it ever again. I also had a span of 7 years where I ran anywhere from 2 to 10 major water tests a day on multiple samples of water. (These were all from aquariums or holding tanks, but more bad things happened at 80 degrees F and above than 79 and below)
To answer the post about DO level lower at night. - Yes
Oxygen exchange happens at the surface. (thus the more surface area the more DO exchange...current, waves, wind, waterfalls all create more DO because they create more surface area). Photosynthesis is what makes oxygen. (The majority of all the oxygen in the world comes from phytoplankton living in the ocean.) Photosynthesis only happens during daylight hours. The biological load (respiration and decomposition) on a body of water does not use any less oxygen at night then during the day, but the atmosphere contains much less oxygen at night so less oxygen is available to absorb into the water. Oxygen levels usually decline as the night progresses, and are usually at their lowest right before sunrise.
To respond to another post. Not all fish react to changes the same. Bass are a warmer water fish and can handle higher temps better than others. Do you go to Saskatchewan to fish trophy largemouth? You would be better served to try Texas, Georgia or Florida. I breed discus and keep them at 86 degrees. In salt water a 3 degree temperature shift up or down from 74 degrees can wipe out an entire reef. (I've watched it happen when my power went out.) Other fish are freaking bullet proof. I spilled a bottle Windex in with a plecostomus on accident (he sat in it for hours before I noticed) kept on eating as if nothing happened. He lived for years.
This is a topic that has interested me for a long time. I'm not trying to lecture anyone. A question was asked by one and discussed by many. No one is holding anyone's head in front of the computer and making them read this. (I hope not anyway). Do what I do when a post starts boring me. Go to the basement bait section and look at the art. (I wish fat fingers would post some more work. I gotta get one of those soon)
Later,
Dave
Edited by Fish and Whistle 7/15/2010 8:16 PM
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| Excellent points, Dave.
However, atmospheric oxygen levels are approximately 21%, which is considerably higher than dissolved oxygen levels in water. That level was reached only after a billion or more years of photosynthesis by primitive cyanobacteria, and does not vary significantly on a daily basis. It is, afterall, always daytime somewhere, and the atmosphere is a continuous open system with currents and allowing for diffusion.
A small body of water is a different story. DO levels do drop at night, however, because aquatic plants in that body of water are not photosynthesizing. Surface area and surface agitation do increase DO levels, but that is only part of the equation, and if you were to compare the surface area of a body of water with the volume of water containing oxygen producing plants, the ratio would be quite large.
Edited by PJV 7/15/2010 8:41 PM
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Location: Antioch, IL | PJV - 7/15/2010 8:38 PM
Excellent points, Dave.
However, atmospheric oxygen levels are approximately 21%, which is considerably higher than dissolved oxygen levels in water. **(Correct, that is why the oxygen moves from the air to the water and not vise versa)**
That level was reached only after a billion or more years of photosynthesis by primitive cyanobacteria, and does not vary significantly on a daily basis. **(Correct, if you are talking about the entire atmosphere as a whole, but it does vary a lot from location to location / environment to environment)** .It is, afterall, always daytime somewhere, and the atmosphere is a continuous open system with currents and allowing for diffusion. **(Yes, but the atmosphere does not move with the daylight. You would have to have a constant 1000pmh west wind at the equator for this to happen. Of course it would only need to be a slight breeze at the poles.) If it is a steady 5 to 10 mile an hour wind when you go to sleep you will be breathing air from about 40-80 miles when you wake up NOTE: This does not account for any resistance (trees, hills, valleys, buildings, etc... (That is if you sleep for eight hours. Most of us would be getting air from 20-40 miles away)**
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Smaller and/or shallow bodies of water or smaller/shallow sections of larger bodies (depending on current) will be affected more.
Edited by Fish and Whistle 7/16/2010 12:46 PM
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| john skarie - 7/15/2010 6:26 PM
So I guess Rod and Dan are fisheries biologists with an agenda?? That's cool with me as I'm pretty sure the agenda involves creating a great muskie fishery in MN and then also sustaining it.
The deer analogy brings up an interesting point to me. I was always raised that you only take "clean" shots at deer. It was the ethical and sportsmanlike thing to do. Yah we are all out to kill deer, but there are acceptable and unacceptable practices among hunters.
I guess that's how I view muskies. I want to aware of my impact on a fish that I plan on fishing for the rest of my life.
So why not try to have as little impact on the resource you want to continue to utilize?
It's about respect and restraint in your pursuit. In hot water periods I either won't fish for muskies, or go barbless only with water release. I guess I view that as being along the same lines as why I won't gut shoot a deer if I can help it.
JS
makes sense to me, wish more people would think this way, but i dont think they do. i water release almost all the time, even in the fall......dont want to get cut by a thrashing fish again, not worth heading to ER for stitches. i got a hunch MN fishing is headed down the crapper will never be what it used to be, the pressure is incredible....a guy used to be able to get lucky fish or a stupid fish that hasnt seen a bait in awhile, not anymore.
Edited by Slow Rollin 7/16/2010 12:48 PM
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