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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | Yesterday was a good day on the water how ever we had a fish on that looked like a decent fish low 50's.. and lost it when we got the bait in the boat to reset all three hooks were straightened out on the bait.(Do not want to bash the bait maker so i will not name the bait it is how ever made in china). Do you think its more of a cheap hardware issue or really big fish? |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | LOCK DOWN DRAG ???????? That will do it. |
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Posts: 2089
| Cheap hardware!!!!!! China hooks are terrible!!!! I'd change the rings too.Nice round bend, bigger gap but cheap, weak steel! |
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| i applaud you not bashing names, but there is a difference in the quality of components. being a machinist for over 30 years i can tell you first hand that there is NO comparison between the metals produced other than the US. we get stainless, aluminum, and assorted steels from all over the world (china, italy, india, etc.) and both the machining ability and long-term integrity of them are lacking. lesser quality control and wider tolerances overseas allow lesser quality products to be shipped as "acceptable". we all have seen too many lure companies today cut back on quality components to protect their bottom line- which means we as anglers have to change out split rings and hooks at an added cost... or take our chances...
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Location: Apple Valley | I say both! Big fish + cheap hardware= heartbreak.
Brian |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I hear these complaints all the time from guys about Chinese lures. That is why we use only U.S.A. made components and Hooks. My business has been through the roof ever since other companies have gone to China for their hard ware. Like Steve says, change out the hooks and rings but I would not trust the inserts either on many new plastic lures. Most failures I hear about are in the tail inserts due to lack of strength in the skinniest part of the bait. When this happens anglers are feeding hooks to the fish. Its not acceptable in my opinion. If you are going to run these lures again I would loosen up my drags a little and not trust that the inserts will hold with the new hooks. Wolverine, Worth and Rosco all use good steel for their rings and there are many good hooks out there. Good luck and sorry to hear about losing a good fish. That company owes you . Mike |
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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | Drag was not a issue with this. |
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Posts: 344
Location: Musky Country | Sounds like the same thing that happened to me last monday.
Rear treble hook Bent straight out... lost the fish.
need less to say I replaced all hooks after the fact shouldnt have too on new baits but thats just the way it is, I feel your pain......... |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Cheap hooks and split rings will cost you eventually.... Change them to something of quality, made in the USA.
Jerome |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | I will tell you overall product quality its not because it was made in China, Mexico, India, USA, etc... Its bad sourcing of raw material and not testing your lures properly. All lure manufactures will have an occasional bad lure here and there but to have 10,000+ lures made all with bad hooks would be a mistake in sourcing improper materials for manufacturing. I will say Brass is not Brass around the world. Brass has any different grades just like paints, plastisol and various plastics. You just need to source the best. Also nothing wrong with no-name brands of split rings for instance. Just make sure they have the proper pull ratings on them. Most of my baits have tempered stainless steel triple split rings on them. Cost me a whopping $0.01 more per ring. Not a big cost to make sure a 10 year old does not miss his first 50" musky.
Nice gesture on not calling out the lure manufacturer but I really urge you to contact them directly with pictures. If not for my customers emailing me when I have the occasional lure malfunction (and we ALL do) I would not be able to improve my product for future anglers. Do them a favor and send them a quick email.
JMHO,
James
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Posts: 208
| China keeps coming up but believe me when i say almost all baits purchased need hook upgrades and that includes most products made in the U.S.A. I noticed this morning when i was out, a brand new creeper used twice had rust on the hooks already. |
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| Some times using 100lb line and large rods we forget to fight the fish...matching your equipment up with the baits you use can solve most of these issues...BR |
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| MuskieE - 7/3/2010 3:21 PM
Drag was not a issue with this.
if the drag was ok then why the hook have been straightened ?????
that story sound strange |
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Location: Ontario | You just beat me to it. |
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| I agree with esox69 i work for an aerospace company and we will not use foreign metals.THeir a nightmare compared to US metals. |
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Posts: 123
| Last year Kristi Hartman caught a 47 inch muskie on 2lb test line that was years old. In my opinion straightened hook would fall under user error more often than not. There are a lot of variables in muskie fishing. Do you want super strong hooks that don't bend or break? Do you want lighter wire hooks that penetrate easier and deeper? Do you use heavy gear to fight the fish to avoid prolonged fights that could lead to delayed mortality? Do you back off the drag and avoid slack trying not to lose the fish by forcing it in? Everybody here may answer those questions differently. In a perfect world you'd try to find a happy medium between these scenarios. I once thought it would be cool to catch a muskie on 8-10lb line just to put my angling skills to the test. I discarded the idea after thinking about the possibility of leaving the lure in the fish or worse yet, landing it but having it die of lactic acid buildup. I usually back off the drag and have only seen bent hooks from the fish thrashing in the net with the lure still in it's mouth. A couple years ago I caught 6 muskies and only had to remove the hook from one. The rest pulled free of the lure in the net saving me the trouble and/or danger of having to do it myself.  |
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Posts: 272
| Here's my answer:
1. The drag WAS an issue if the hooks straightened.
2. The hooks were an issue if the hooks straightened.
I think we forget that the hook is often the one thing between us and the fish with the most give, nowadays. My hooks are fine when I run mono trolling. Only bending there is from the fish mashing down on it or from me prying hooks loose. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | There are several people with videos out telling others to crank down the drags and horse fish in. My opinion is that to take that tactic to the extreme does more damage to both the tackle and the fish. A 40 pound musky on a 7/0 hook tied to 130 pound braid line with the drag cranked down. This is an awesome amount of power being pin pointed to one or two hook barbs. The amount of tearing and ripping these hooks can and will do is tremendous. Common sense says to me that I need to get my fish in as quickly as possible but not in an unsafe manner to both me and the fish. My casting reels allow big fish to take line and small fish are not able to. The same with my Trolling reels. I dont use real heavy hooks just 2 and 3 x for the most part. Good quality Mustad , VMC and Eagle claw and we dont have problems with hooks being straightened out. Use your heads people, Reels have drags and they should be set proper for what ever you are doing weather casting or trolling. Allowing a big Musky to thrash green on no stretch line with a tight drag is going to destroy both the lure and the fish. Many times people are too hard on the fish using bigger and stronger hardware until they take the fight right out of them. Might as well use a freaking downrigger cable and winch. Mike |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Kingfisher I could not have said it better |
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Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | I always replace all the stock hooks with Gamakatsu Magic eye hooks. Straightened out hooks is part of the game if you do not watch the hardware that comes on the lures.
Also, I run a lock down drag but when I have a large fish on, I always turn it down 1/4 turn or so after the hock set. You can usually tell right away when you have a big fish on. |
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| A monster. Not all men of equal size are of equal strength. So with fish. |
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Posts: 719
| In am pretty sure the "video guys" who guide all year long and have two to three different clients in their boats every single day have a pretty good idea what they are talking about re: big hooks, big rods and tight drags on the big fish waters that they fish....otherwise the wouldn't land an unbelievably high percentage of the fish that strike. And people wouldn't line up to fish with them. Watch Hammernick, Luke, Ty, Greg or any of the others play a fish.... after they get the hook set that fish is worked pretty gently untill it is in the bag....figure eight fish excepted then it's tag em and bag em.
The thing to keep in mind is what may be the norm and the best system casting on big fish waters may be overkill if the average fish where you fish is a 37 incher and a real good one is 45". ...or if you are a troller.
Your tackle has to be balenced...if you have thin wire hooks on a smaller bait you better have some give in your system or you WILL have a heart break down the road if big fish are present. Big 7/0 or 8/0's on big baits and you better have a tight drag and a big rod or you will not get the penetration to bury those hooks if you hit the hard part of the mouth on a big girl...more heart break.
Don't put yourself in the rut of just thinking one way is right, match the system to your target fish, your gear and how you are fishing.
PS: I think you were undergunned on the big fish if she straightend three hooks...better hooks and maybe you get a picture ! |
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Posts: 123
| I agree with what you say about matching your gear/fighting technique to the fish you are targeting, but I've also caught 24 inch muskies on the same bait as a 49 incher. There must be a common ground as far as hooks, drag setting and fight time that would be safe for the average fish but still allow a good chance with larger fish. For example, you don't want to prolong the fight and you don't want to have a green fish thrashing in the net while you're trying to remove the hooks. You don't want the hooks to bend but you want them to penetrate well.
I was fishing bass once and caught two three pounders in a row. On the next strike I set the hook a bit harder than normal expecting a nice fish. I actually had hooked about an 8 inch long bass and he rocketed out of the water, bounced off the side of the boat and died. Didn't need to set the hook quite that hard.
Since there's no way of knowing the size of the fish that's going to bite next do we use overkill equipment all the time or adjust our technique to accomodate fish of smaller size? That seems to be the question here, and I would personally choose the latter. |
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| Did you straighten the hooks out on the hookset? If not, it was user error all the way. Once you have the hooks in her, loosen the drag a bit and take it easy. If you fight a fish on a very tight/locked drag you'll lose a lot of them to torn out hooks and the occasional hardware failure. |
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Posts: 619
| one factor is......if someone is trying to horse a big fish in, its not really going to happen, if you have your drag is set or just thumb and let the fish run there should be no problem even w/ if the hooks are cheap, i see no reason to try to horse a fish in, you will just have a fish going nutz in your net and still full of energy....and u got your hands near that thrashing fish full of energy yet. |
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| Drag too tight for sure. Combine with cheaper hooks you have this crap happen. How much stuff do you buy from china to make your baits? |
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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | Nothing on my baits comes from china.I dont want to compromise quality and have someone have a failure because I scimped on hardware and went to china.
Plus everyone brings up drag when you troll at 5 mph i think the drags are pretty loose so it isnt a issue.If anything the drag should be tightened up a little to get the fish in.
Edited by MuskieE 7/8/2010 2:12 AM
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Posts: 720
| Without knowing the lure. How can anyone have an opinion here. Were you trolling a Husky Jerk J7 or was it a Talon bait. Huge difference in whats being used there and I've purposefully fish for and caught musky with both. But I can honestly say while I've caught a lot more fish on the Rapala vs. The Talon. I've never had the hooks straighten out on my Talon but on at least two occasions the Rapala hooks came in looking like a class room pointer. In both cases it was my fault. Not pointing fingers at anyone here. Just have a hard time with a hook failure because of the size of a fish. |
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Posts: 723
| yes there is chinsy hardware, and yes there are operator errors.
there is a fine line of finding balance between the two.
a lot of baits you cant beef the hooks up on due to losing that
"desired action"
ive found over the years a lot more fish visit my net once theyre hooked
by not even using the drag. once that fish is on, im in freespool 90% of the time.
re-engaging only to crank in more line, then dis-engaging to let the fish do what it wants. we've landed some pretty heavy fish on 1-2 odd hooks with not much backbone to them.
run loose drags, and have sharp hooks, then take it easy on those fish after you hook them. the hard part is over by getting them to hit right?
the rest should be a cakewalk. 
but i will vouch for hook failure over the years too. there is some real crappy stuff out there. you will find them when you try to "T" a hook and they just disintegrate.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Gamakatsu is a "foreign" product ...
the U.S. is best cliche is a great one to pound out time and time again, but it is simply not true.
truthful and good advice out of Tackle Industries ... spot-on
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Posts: 155
| My dad always says "If you buy junk you get junk" |
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| Any gamigatsu hook I've ever tried to bend with pliers just snapped. I tried using them for quickstrike rigs with one bent prong for sticking in the sucker. Those are very brittle hooks |
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Location: Suburban Chicago | The poorly anchored hooks on these things ripped out of the two piece molded bodies on my Canada trip. One of them got a straightened middle hook too.
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Posts: 1460
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | I dunno' but when a 'decent' fish is in the low 50' I better start fishing different water. Can't wait until week I of August. |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | IMO any plastic lure should be through wire. Cost about $0.05 more to make them with a through wire so even if there is a failure in the plastic you still get the fish boated and released. Cheech, if you have not already...I suggest you send that picture to Bucher so they can see it and maybe fix the issue on future production runs. I owe my SuperD generation III lures to my customers. I had little to do with the positive changes besides listen and act.
JMO
James
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Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | jonnysled - 7/8/2010 12:09 AM
Gamakatsu is a "foreign" product ...
the U.S. is best cliche is a great one to pound out time and time again, but it is simply not true.
truthful and good advice out of Tackle Industries ... spot-on
Tackle Industries uses awesome stuff... I can attest to their products. Great Service too... and I do not have to swap out this stuff for stiff I typically run.
Thanks James. |
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Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | MAtt - 7/8/2010 3:44 AM
Any gamigatsu hook I've ever tried to bend with pliers just snapped. I tried using them for quickstrike rigs with one bent prong for sticking in the sucker. Those are very brittle hooks
I cant say I have had any issues with Gamakatsu stuff. Wonder if they have made a change to what they produce. I bought a few hundred hooks from them a few years ago and still using the lots I bought. You really have to try hard to cut the ones I have with a pair a mini bolt cutters. and haven't had any more than a few snap or bend out... and on hooks with lots of fish.
Only time I have managed to bend their stuff is trolling big Jakes bumping rock and nailing a hookset into a boulder with a lockdown drag. |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | While I have never bought Gamakatsu brand hooks I have poured over Bass forums and I can not remember one time any bass guy has ever said Gamakatsu brand hooks have broke on them. I know a lot of the top brand bass lures ($100+ retail) use Gamakatsu hooks too. Some hooks are not made to bend/twist to "T" but are very strong. JMO
James |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 |
Only time I have managed to bend their stuff is trolling big Jakes bumping rock and nailing a hookset into a boulder with a lockdown drag.
Lockdown Drag for Trolling ??????? |
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Location: Suburban Chicago | Tackle Industries - 7/8/2010 5:56 PM
...I suggest you send that picture to Bucher so they can see it and maybe fix the issue on future production runs.
Thanks James, I did send the pics and a note to Bucher. Those lures should have a thru-wire for sure. We were in big northerns not muskies when both broke. One fish we netted because it was on the middle hook, the other never made it in. Who knows what that one could have been.
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