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| http://www.startribune.com/local/91716694.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoa...
This should be fun! |
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Posts: 265
Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | Good let them fish! Anyone who knows a little background on how the American goverment handled Native Americans knows quite often...they got the short end of the stick.
For those of you who think there doing this soley for the fish...you might want to reconsider, here's why...
They WANT to get arrested, becuase when they do they then can sue the U.S. Govt for doing so. i.e. not adhering the the treaty in question.
It's a smart play, and to be quite honest other cases just like this one show that the Gov't will loose. But its just a small price to pay for...i'll just stop there.
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| Well the people the "native" Americans kicked out before them got an even shorter end of the stick, just the way it goes. Id say theyve got it pretty good now, when money gets short throw up another casino....better than what those before the current tribes got.... |
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| Ignore them and they will go away! They are looking to get paid and I hope the state of Minnesota doesn't get goaded into it. If and when they bring a lawsuit it will have to be dealt with until then don't engage in their childish antics! There numbers where what 30,000. How many of those will be taking part in this show of solidarity. The numbers are insignificant. |
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Location: Minnetonka | Sure, let them fish... I agree... "short end" from way back... yes, they're doing it to make a statement. However if MN law enforcement looks the other way and allows tribes break one of the stated regulations that have been previously adhered to, then what's to stop them ignoring other laws as they see fit? Their hands are tied and I'm glad I'm not the one calling the shots here. Good luck to those involved.  |
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| This is b.s. I love the way they pick and choose parts of the treaty the want. I heard (true or not I don't know) that it also says that if more than 3 are of the rez, that constitutes a war party. If true I say we make them live by that to. |
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| Peaceful civil disobedience as political demonstration is a cornerstone of this country's history, especially in the areas of rights.
People can freely disagree on the issues, but it's good to see the tribes in question acting openly to reduce the potential conflict or violence that has occured in other places in the past.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I suggest you learn what rights those treaties actually do grant to tribes before posting anything negative. Wisconsin's tribes went all the way to the Supreme Court and won easily; a Treaty is a Treaty and Government can't arbitrarily decide when they will or won't abide by the agreements without consequence. Look at the history of the Wisconsin court cases and how those started with some Walleyes out of NW Wisconsin.
All the racist, ignorant behavior we saw in WI during that court battle was unbelievable and accomplished absolutely nothing. This one is for the Courts, and I'm betting that's exactly where this will go, with clear precedent in Wisconsin guiding the way. I agree with the last post by 'Rosa', and a couple others here; and hope that the folks in MN are wise enough to work WITH the Tribes out of the chute, the alternative wasn't pretty for us in WI. |
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| Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Like it or not, treaties are Federal LAW, are completely enforceable and will be to the letter if the Tribe chooses to go there. It isn't 'owe', it's what was negotiated between those governments in writing and how it holds up in Court now. Seriously, read up on the WI Treaty issues and the resulting court decisions.
The law we all follow is pretty much based on what happened to YOUR great great grandfather hundreds of years ago. |
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Location: Money, PA | Simple solution....if they live off the land and rely soley on fish and game for food; the laws shouldn't apply to them, as long as they hunt their quarry as they once did when there were no laws....AND give EVERYONE that same opportunity....AMISH, INDIAN, BLACK, WHITE whomever. But as soon as they choose to live the modern life with modern amenities, the laws must apply. Just see how many would do it and what little effect it would make on the fishery and game. If they have that choice to live like they once lived, they will have no right to complain. Now, will it ever happen? NOPE!
Edited by ShutUpNFish 4/22/2010 10:00 AM
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| Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
This is one of the most short sided / racist comments I have ever seen on a forum.
I grew up in South Dakota, and have spent signifigant amounts of time on both the PineRidge and Crow Creek Reservations. Pine Ridge is one of the poorest counties in America! We raped these people, we took there land and outlawed there religion, they were grranted certain things via treaty and they deserve all that and more.
Let me know when your ready for a field trip, I will take you and show you poverty you had no idea existed in this country. Spend a few days on "the res" and you will see how much of a privilaged white boy you really are. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What's at issue is a TREATY BETWEEN GOVERNMENTS,the rights within CANNOT be taken away by anyone, and the Supreme Court has confirmed this time and time again. Since the MN tribes entered into treaties that may differ from those in WI, all depends on how each reads. if the Tribe feels they have a good enough case to go ahead and exercise those rights they probably are correct....we'll see.
We share the resource with the Tribes here in WI, and after they harvest what they wish each year (TAC) our DNR sets limits on the lakes in the Ceded Territories to protect the fish populations from over harvest. The Tribes negotiate the TAC, and they don't negotiate with sportsmen...they negotiate with the Government. Look up Chippewa Government Sovereignty, it's interesting.
That opportunity you speak of is the Tribes RIGHT governed by their councils, and is our PRIVILEGE governed by our DNR in the Ceded Territories.
http://ncseonline.org/nae/docs/chippewa.html
read this one:
http://www.mnchippewatribe.org/a_brief_history.htm
here's the tribe who's members were pivotal in the WI actions leading to the agreements we have today.
http://redcliff-nsn.gov/Government/history.htm
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Posts: 193
Location: Mayer, MN | promod1385 - 4/22/2010 10:03 AM
Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
This is one of the most short sided / racist comments I have ever seen on a forum.
I grew up in South Dakota, and have spent signifigant amounts of time on both the PineRidge and Crow Creek Reservations. Pine Ridge is one of the poorest counties in America! We raped these people, we took there land and outlawed there religion, they were grranted certain things via treaty and they deserve all that and more.
Let me know when your ready for a field trip, I will take you and show you poverty you had no idea existed in this country. Spend a few days on "the res" and you will see how much of a privilaged white boy you really are.
Then you know what, it sounds like it might be time to leave the reservation. Here is a novel idea, evolve! My family, my great grandparents were dirt poor hillbillies from West Virginia (Appalachian Americans), worked the coal mines. That went south so my grand father, who was working the mine sought opportunity and moved his wife and all of his children to IN where he made a better life for himself. My dad finished high school, maybe the first of our family. I followed in my father's foot steps graduated high school and went on to a University, first in our family and earned a degree. I moved out of IN and moved to MN to give myself and my children more opportunities, due to the economic decline I witnessed. You cannot help people that do not wish to help themselves, this goes for all races and ethnic groups! This is America, land of opportunity. |
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Location: Money, PA | Since when has evolution been about getting a degree so you can make more money to buy more STUFF? Getting a degree and having a high paying job may not be some people's idea of success. If people are perfectly content with living simple, off the land and without relying on government and laws to dictate their lives; why are they denied that right? How can a country deem itself free? This nation has re-defined the word freedom and obviously/sadly redifined the meaning of success. |
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Location: The desert | lots of luck - 4/22/2010 12:24 PM
promod1385 - 4/22/2010 10:03 AM
Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
This is one of the most short sided / racist comments I have ever seen on a forum.
I grew up in South Dakota, and have spent signifigant amounts of time on both the PineRidge and Crow Creek Reservations. Pine Ridge is one of the poorest counties in America! We raped these people, we took there land and outlawed there religion, they were grranted certain things via treaty and they deserve all that and more.
Let me know when your ready for a field trip, I will take you and show you poverty you had no idea existed in this country. Spend a few days on "the res" and you will see how much of a privilaged white boy you really are.
Then you know what, it sounds like it might be time to leave the reservation. Here is a novel idea, evolve! My family, my great grandparents were dirt poor hillbillies from West Virginia (Appalachian Americans ), worked the coal mines. That went south so my grand father, who was working the mine sought opportunity and moved his wife and all of his children to IN where he made a better life for himself. My dad finished high school, maybe the first of our family. I followed in my father's foot steps graduated high school and went on to a University, first in our family and earned a degree. I moved out of IN and moved to MN to give myself and my children more opportunities, due to the economic decline I witnessed. You cannot help people that do not wish to help themselves, this goes for all races and ethnic groups! This is America, land of opportunity.
You clearly aren't in the market for a new job. The "opportunity" you speak of is pretty limited these days. Please feel free to explain how someone living in great poverty is supposed to set themselves apart in a job market loaded with people with Master's or higher educational background and loads of work experience (yet even they are unemployed). Maybe you were just looking for a pat on the back because you went to a "University" and earned a degree? Many applause to you oh great achiever. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | I understand that the treaties were made and should be upheld. But there are "certain political groups" in this country that have no problem reinterpreting and changing the U.S. Constitution, yet these outdated treaties are iron clad? Oh, because it's a minority group. I thought the movements that changed this country were for EQUALITY, not preferred treatment.
By the way, lot of tough talk coming from the Ojibwe as they pull into the meetings in $40,000 vehicles. Weren't the Native Americans the only indigenous group in the world to never have discovered metal? |
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Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 1:11 PM
I understand that the treaties were made and should be upheld. But there are "certain political groups" in this country that have no problem reinterpreting and changing the U.S. Constitution, yet these outdated treaties are iron clad? Oh, because it's a minority group. I thought the movements that changed this country were for EQUALITY, not preferred treatment.
By the way, lot of tough talk coming from the Ojibwe as they pull into the meetings in $40,000 vehicles. Weren't the Native Americans the only indigenous group in the world to never have discovered metal?
Do some of you people realize that the tribes are their own sovereign nations? Equality of the US has nothing to do with their tribes, hence the treaties.
Also what in the world does discovering metal have to do with anything? Maybe you were just trying to show off how racist you really are? |
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Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | WOW! The un-educated ill informed have risen! Sworall well sair my friend, I knew my post would boil the blood of some but owell. Fact of the matter is if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty the way in which our great great grandfathers treaty the native americans can be decribed as genocide. And for all of who would like a defention...here's NATO"S
Article II of the 1948 U.N. Convention on Genocide states the following
:
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnical, racial or religious group as such:
(a) killing members of the group;
(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
There's some food for thought! Do a little research bout the subject before you post anymore racist comments. Facts are facts. I say LET EM FISH! |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Mike, if Native Americans want to govern themselves and live as a separate nation, that's fine. But sticking to age old treaties that are not beneficial to the shared resource should be up for discussion and always changing for the benefit of both sides. And definitely not handled by a blantant affront to the State of Minnesota.
As far as the metal thing, my point was that when it comes to traditional harvest, the equipment, transportation, methods and actual usage of the fish or animal can change. After all, this is 2010! But oh no, don't touch that treaty right! |
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Location: Germantown, WI | I have to agree with Steve and the others about the tribes' treaty rights. I may not like the fact that tribes can spear walleyes and muskies, but I have no inherent legal right to fish either. I can fish because the state grants me the priviledge of fishing as long as I abide by the laws and buy a license. Whether we like it or not the treaties that were signed between the US govt and the tribes are binding legal treaties which the govt is obligated to uphold. Whether I agree that what seemed fair in 1850 seems fair today is not the point. Were all the treaties fair to the tribes? I am sure they were not. Did the tribes voluntarily enter into the treaties in the first place or were they coerced by threat of deadly force? What tribe members the US govt did not kill, we forced onto lands that the govt did not want at the time. If some tribe members choose to live in the modern world and assimilate with eveyone else good for them. If others choose to live on the reservation that is their right.
We would do far better to approach managment of natural resources in cooperation with the tribes rather than in competition. There will be some disagreements, but in many cases there is plenty of common ground. It is in all of our interests to put the resource first and share the use of that resource. Blaming the tribes for all or even most of the problems associated with fisheries management is a distraction from doing the things that can and should be done to protect our fisheries.
I'm sure that some tribe members take positions on this issue out of spite as much as anything else, but I can hardly blame them for that. There is plenty of spite and hatred on the other side too. |
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| There's a big difference between a "right" and a "priveledge"...
Ceded territory is just that, and the agreement between tribal governments and the US government is one that will stand long before we are gone. You don't have to like it, most of us don't. But keep something in mind: If we fail to recognize the rights native Americans have to the resources we think we own? What's to stop them from taking those areas back? |
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Location: APPLETON, WI | I, like most of you, completely understand the treaty. I understand why they were put in place WHEN they were put into place. But that doesn't mean in 2010 that I have to agree with them. And at this point, I don't. *shrug* I guess if that makes me a rascist... so be it. These so-called Native Americans insisting we respect their beloved treaty aren't exactly "living off the land" in this day and age.
I call it like I see it. I lived in Minnesota for ten years before moving to Wisconsin... and while that may not make me an expert on the subject, I've seen enough. |
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Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 1:37 PM
Mike, if Native Americans want to govern themselves and live as a separate nation, that's fine. But sticking to age old treaties that are not beneficial to the shared resource should be up for discussion and always changing for the benefit of both sides. And definitely not handled by a blantant affront to the State of Minnesota.
As far as the metal thing, my point was that when it comes to traditional harvest, the equipment, transportation, methods and actual usage of the fish or animal can change. After all, this is 2010! But oh no, don't touch that treaty right!
My guess is you fish out of a boat, have a high powered real, sonar etc? Save your lecture about netting or spearing out of dugout canoes etc. The 'evolve' argument can't only go for the white man. The Chinese and Japanese have made huge strides in technology, not the white man. Should they be asking us to give up their advancements. No, that's ludicrous.
The age old treaties may not be beneficial to you but I'm willing to bet you have absolutely no proof that they are not beneficial to the Native Americans. You want their treaties adjusted to fit the white man's definition of what they want. You want to 'get' but are unwilling to give anything. |
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| They have the right to net fish you have the right NOT to set foot in their casinos. |
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| AFC Chris, it seems like you are truly outraged by this subject.
Maybe you would care to inform the group of what you have personally done to better the life of Native Americans. My guess is your contributions to their betterment include living in a nice house, in a nice neighborhood full of nice schools on lands that were once occupied by Native Americans. Maybe instead of having others think before they talk you should take some of your own advise.
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| Wow, all the ignorance here is just incredible. Everyone who is sitting here talking about this, with the exception of a few, should really go pick up a book. The state has absolutely no right to stop these people from doing what a FEDERAL TREATY grants them the rights to do. Pretty sure about 150 years ago there was this big thing about states rights and the federal governments ability to govern these states. The Civil War? Sound familiar.
With that being said, do any of you actually have stats on the number of Native Americans that are going to be participating in this? Check out the numbers. The amount of fish taken each year by these people is such a fraction of the total number that it should not be an issue. Do you guys feel, I don't know, slighted because they get to do something that you dont? Get over it. Life isn't fair. Its the same reason that same families have been runnning this country for the past 100 years.
As for the guy saying that if they want to be able to do this, they should completely living off the land, are you kidding me? Yeah I totally agree, its a completely viable option. "Hey dad, all of the animals keep moving west." "That's fine son, we'll just keep following them so that we can live solely off the land. Oh wait, we just ran into Minneapolis? Oh Darn!"
This does have to do with racism, but its mostly just due to ignorance. guys
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Location: Hudson, WI | Pointerpride102 - 4/22/2010 2:08 PM
The age old treaties may not be beneficial to you but I'm willing to bet you have absolutely no proof that they are not beneficial to the Native Americans. You want their treaties adjusted to fit the white man's definition of what they want. You want to 'get' but are unwilling to give anything.
You'll have to forgive me, since this hits home, but you mean like "give" my money and efforts into helping make Bone Lake a quality musky fishery and "get"ting it speared into a desert? How was that beneficial to the tribes or anyone in the long run?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | this one is like watchin a train wreck ...
carry on fellas |
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Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 2:32 PM
Pointerpride102 - 4/22/2010 2:08 PM
The age old treaties may not be beneficial to you but I'm willing to bet you have absolutely no proof that they are not beneficial to the Native Americans. You want their treaties adjusted to fit the white man's definition of what they want. You want to 'get' but are unwilling to give anything.
You'll have to forgive me, since this hits home, but you mean like "give" my money and efforts into helping make Bone Lake a quality musky fishery and "get"ting it speared into a desert? How was that beneficial to the tribes or anyone in the long run?
The tribes spear fish and receive fish from it. Who forced you to "give" your money to help make Bone a quality musky fishery? Plenty of other lakes that could use the help that don't get speared. You're generous donations have given the Native Americans fish to spear so you could take that as your satisfaction. Every year you donate you help the tribes "in the long run." |
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| Holy Cow. Speared into a desert? You've got to be kidding me? I guess I'm gonna have to spell it out here. How many fish do you think that they're spearing per year? Do you think that number even remotely comes close to the number of fish that are being taken with rod and reel? I think you'll be surprised at the numbers.
I know this might be hard for some of you to believe, but these people are not savages. They have these things called regulations, you might have heard of them? Oh yeah, the rest of the country has them as well. Why in God's name would they want to destroy a resource that they also use. It doesn't make any sense, at all. Not even a little bit of sense. It's equivalent to slashing the tires on a city bus, and then trying to ride it. Make sense?
The only difference between Native Americans and the rest of the population is how the fish are taken. Oh yeah, and the fact that they're actually taking a fraction of what "the white man" takes. |
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Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | Guest you crack me up!
Outraged, no not at all. Just sharing a history lesson with the less informed. It’s clearly apparent that some lack the educational background to fully comprehend this topic (this means you). Federal law is federal law......end of story.
As for my contributions, anyone who knows me on this board knows the sacrifices I have made for this great country.
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| "Check out the numbers. The amount of fish taken each year by these people is such a fraction of the total number that it should not be an issue. "
Really? C'mon. Look at the property values on Red Lake when it was overfished. Cannery's were ideled are no back on-line and increasing quotas. Look at the boom/bust cycles on Mille Lacs. It takes more than a fraction to make lakes this size boom and bust like they do.
If they want to net fine but do they have to do it when they are trying to make babies? |
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Location: Hudson, WI | You're right. This sounds like a WONDERFUL long range plan for our favorite fish. Maybe I'll join the Cedar Lake Restoration Project. Is that in the ceded territory?
Edited by Moltisanti 4/22/2010 2:53 PM
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Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | I agree with Hamskie- glad I don't have to make the decisions on this one! Particularly this: "The bands say those rights include not only off-reservation hunting, fishing and gathering, but perhaps also co-management of much of the region's timber and mining -- the first such claims made by Minnesota Chippewa." I have no idea how that would play out, but seems to me like a much bigger deal than the fishing, all things considered. Not judging either way... just commenting.
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Location: Hudson, WI | Intelligence? The numbers have been estimated on Bone Lake to be between 250 and 350 adult muskies in the last two winter spearing seasons. On a 1700 acre lake. Yes, this is a fraction...like about 1/2. Pine Grove Resort registered 74 muskies on their guest musky board in 06. 84 in '07. 32 in '08, and 14 in '09. Nice try. |
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Location: The desert | Feel free to read what the guest Intelligence? wrote. He is completely and entirely spot on. My adviser and professor at Point was the one on the stand in Federal Court for the Wisconsin DNR in 1985. I've cited some things he said here in the past. If you people knew what the Native Americans were going after compared to what they got (the now status quo) you'd be thanking your lucky stars.
There is a bigger world with more people from different walks of life out there. They even come in different colors! Simply because the white man want, doesn't mean it is what the white man should get. What am I saying, it is so hard being white. But feel free to whine about how rough you have it. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | this is gonna make 3 pages a stupid ... isn't it? |
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| And you honestly think that its more likely that a tiny minority of people overfished a lake? OR do you think that maybe the massive majority if people that fish that body of water might be just a tad more responsible?
This is the same ignorant mentality that people took with their stance on blacks. Everyone thought they had smaller brains, attacked white women, were more closely related to monkeys than white people. All because of ignorance. Indians are not abusing natural resources. I'd be willing to bet they have a lot more reverence for nature than most people on this board. They are not taking more than their quota. Yeah, you hear about those select incidents where someone does. That's not specific to Indians.
This is part of their culture. How would you all like it if someone tried to take yours? |
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Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | jonnysled - 4/22/2010 3:00 PM
this is gonna make 3 pages a stupid ... isn't it?
HA! Yep. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Got me there, Mike. Since I am upset about a valued resource being over-speared, I am intolerant of all races, colors and creeds. Funny how a kid from Stevens Point who now lives in rural Utah and has probably spent less than 10 days in an urban environment in his entire life tells me I'm "ignorant" of other cultures. Where does your wealth of experience come from? |
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Location: Minnesota | Not that this changes anything with treaty rights - but in MN we have a constitutional right to hunt and fish. In 1998 the following was an amendment to the MN Constitution;
“Hunting and fishing and the taking of game and fish are a valued part of our
heritage that shall be forever preserved for the people and shall be managed by law
and regulation for the public good.”
So the discussion about rights and privileges is slightly off course - carry on with the downward spiral of this thread.
Edtior's Note:
'shall be managed by law
and regulation for the public good'
And by this definition, it is a privilege which can be taken away, regulated by the agency in charge of managing and regulation. it is NOT your RIGHT to fish, it's a privilege you obtain by buying a license and abiding by regulation and law therein. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Intelligence, you got me, too. 300 muskies were not speared out of Bone Lake by the tribes in the last 2 years. The Polk County Band of Conspirators made the whole thing up. |
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| Alright, to get back on point. There is no sense in arguing. If the Indians go ahead with this, they'll probably get arrested. Because that goes against a Federal treaty, they'll sue the state and win. It'll go to the supreme court, just like in Wisconsin. It's going to be a win win for them regardless of what happens. |
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Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | Ashamed...no. Inlightened...maybe. I have done nothin do help the native american cause what so ever, I post racist comments on a musky fishing board under the name guest...beacuse I'm affraid to reveal my identity. |
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| There was absolutely nothing I posted that was racist, I simply pointed out the hypocrisy in your rant. And with you proving my point, I can now retire and watch this " discussion " crumble
Carry on |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Intelligence? - 4/22/2010 3:02 PM
Indians are not abusing natural resources. I'd be willing to bet they have a lot more reverence for nature than most people on this board. They are not taking more than their quota. Yeah, you hear about those select incidents where someone does. That's not specific to Indians.
I hate to jump in on this but couldn’t take it with this comment. Don’t be too generalized with statements like this. Most do not abuse, but there are still plenty that do. Just like there are plenty of the “white man” that abuses the resources. It is those that do abuse it that has everyone hot under the collar. When they do abuse it, it is just not by one, two or three over the quota. Take a look at the Big Carr incident a few years ago. It’s not by spearing/netting a bunch and dispersing amongst the tribe(s) that gets people angry. It is by harvesting a bunch of fish, and leaving them to rot in the back of a truck, a ditch, or somewhere in the woods. Lots of pictures out there that have illustrated this type of waste.
It is their right, and I can live with that. What bothers me is the disregard by those that do abuse it, and with the severity that they completely disrespect the resource. I have the same distain for any general angler whether they are white or any other race that.
Some have mentioned it and are right. The general anglers as a whole do take a lot more fish out of a system, usually, than the tribes. I think some of it can be said to be because some anglers are “afraid” that if they don’t keep a fish the “Indians” will take it anyway so they better get their share. I hear it all the time. It is this type of mentality that is ruining a fishery more than the Native Americans themselves. Until that type of mentality changes there is always going to be friction.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4e3-YK3rVA |
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| WOW if this isn't a friendly thread!
Just a couple more weeks untill we start arguing about proper nets, photographing fish, trolling is cheating, measureing under 40 fish, release police, and so on....
As long as no one is breaking any laws, It is legal. Some people may not agree with those laws. And I hope if someone feels that strongly about something they lobby for change. btw,Good luck with that one. |
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Location: Smith Creek | Intelligence? - 4/22/2010 2:43 PM
Holy Cow. Speared into a desert? You've got to be kidding me? I guess I'm gonna have to spell it out here. How many fish do you think that they're spearing per year? Do you think that number even remotely comes close to the number of fish that are being taken with rod and reel? I think you'll be surprised at the numbers.
I know this might be hard for some of you to believe, but these people are not savages. They have these things called regulations, you might have heard of them? Oh yeah, the rest of the country has them as well. Why in God's name would they want to destroy a resource that they also use. It doesn't make any sense, at all. Not even a little bit of sense. It's equivalent to slashing the tires on a city bus, and then trying to ride it. Make sense?
The only difference between Native Americans and the rest of the population is how the fish are taken. Oh yeah, and the fact that they're actually taking a fraction of what "the white man" takes.
First off, no they aren't regulated, 2nd, remember Red Lake? Almost every single walleye was removed. 3rd, fish are speared while in the act of spawning, and if they go over the quota "suggested" to them by the DNR, citizens of the U.S. are not allowed to harvest any.
Can't wait for opener on Butternut, we can keep 1 walleye per day this year.
Edited by Flambeauski 4/22/2010 3:40 PM
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Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 3:11 PM
Got me there, Mike. Since I am upset about a valued resource being over-speared, I am intolerant of all races, colors and creeds. Funny how a kid from Stevens Point who now lives in rural Utah and has probably spent less than 10 days in an urban environment in his entire life tells me I'm "ignorant" of other cultures. Where does your wealth of experience come from?
Actually I grew up in Milwaukee, but you're right there are no minorities there. Half the time in Hartland the other time in Milwaukee/Kenosha/Racine and with a year and a half spent in Chicago. Keep on with you're ignorance though, it's working well thus far. Just like your broad generalizations you've made about the Native Americans, you've made about me. You're proving the ignorant point to a T.
Do you have any knowledge of what the Native Americans wanted/proposed when the treaty case went to the Supreme Court in the 80's? Judging by your incredibly informed responses thus far, my guess would be no. |
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| You just proved my point. Key word is "incident." The fact that were discussion an incident is exactly my point. It is a rare occurence. You can't make judgements and decisions on things that are of rare occurance. Just because there's one moron that lives in my town, that doesn't mean that everyone is a moron. Those people that do that stuff give everyone else the stigma. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 300 or 500 or 1000 muskies speared isn't the point, as hard as that might be for many of us to accept. The point is the tribes have the right to spear/net/capture those fish and the language in the treaty is quite clear that they have the right to do so in any manner chosen, worded obviously to stop the exact line of thought expressed here about what's 'modern' and what isn't; that doesn't matter, the issue was anticipated and covered in the Treaty and that's that. The Tribes received that right as partial 'compensation' when the US Government forced the ceding of their lands and sent them to reservation. Those rights have been quite recently upheld by the highest court in this country by a RIGHT leaning Court.
if you want to be angry about this, be angry at the Government that wrote those treaties and displaced these people instead of absorbing them equally into the general population. And ask yourself why it was handled that way. The answer doesn't say much positive for those folks.... and perhaps us, collectively.
If any one might be truly interested in seeing the winter spearing regulated, assist your State reps, DNR and GLIFWC folks in finding some common ground to discuss this issue perhaps offering something positive for the future. |
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| Oh they're not regulated? Wow, that's news to
me. I'm pretty sure that they have their own law enforcement agencies that enforce their regulations? Yeah they do. I know you're next remark is gonna be something like well they must not care then because people still do it. Yeah, they do care. They need the resources just like everyone else does. Why would they want to destroy that? It doesn't make any sense. Why don't you look at some of their regulations and tell me how they compare to ours. Repercussions for breaking laws is quite a bit worse then most of ours. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | GLIFWC. Read. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Okay, Mike, you are a much more "cultured"person than I gave you credit for. As far as the Supreme Court cases, which were you referring to? Without going into ridiculous detail, non-natives made out pretty good on the deal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crying about how the poor white man is getting screwed. I just have a general dislike of someone exercising their power at the expense of a fishery. Nothing good can come of it. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I just have a general dislike of someone exercising their power at the expense of a fishery.'
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If you want to be angry about this, be angry at the Government that wrote those treaties and displaced these people instead of absorbing them equally into the general population. And ask yourself why it was handled that way. The answer doesn't say much positive for those folks.... and perhaps us, collectively. |
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Location: The desert | The Voigt Decision case, is the case I am referring to.
Out of curiosity, roughly how many walleyes do you think Native Americans have speared in the last 26 years?
Edit to add: How man walleyes do you estimate the general angling population harvests per year?
Edited by Pointerpride102 4/22/2010 4:02 PM
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| Some people get it and some people don't. I could not possibly agree more with what Steve just said. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | sworrall - 4/22/2010 3:41 PM
If any one might be truly interested in seeing the winter spearing regulated, assist your State reps, DNR and GLIFWC folks in finding some common ground to discuss this issue perhaps offering something positive for the future.
Steve, you have eluded to the fact that this was an issue in the E.R and Rhinelander area for a long time in another thread. It seems now that it is almost a non-issue up there. Polk County hadn't seen this sort of thing until the tribe from the Eagle River area came out the last few years and hammered Bone and Deer.
I'd be very interested to know what steps were taken outside of what you listed, and what made a significant impact. What you said sounds fine, and I know the DNR is now doing a spring survey on Bone this year at the behest of the lake association, but the Bone situation seems unteneble. In speaking with the DNR, their take was that there was a tribe in the E.R area that got wind of how Bone was doing. They came out, speared it to death, and left. His thoughts were that this might be a trend throughout the ceded territory. Maybe not, I don't know. Either way, there is a lot of hot blood in this area and I just wonder what the next step is. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Bingo! |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | WoW! that was quite a read! I have my thoughts on this subject too. But I'm going to keep them to myself, becuase my words here will make no difference to history or to the events the future might hold. The situation as a whole was bad from day one. |
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| >>Sworrall: if you want to be angry about this, be angry at the Government that wrote those treaties and displaced these people instead of absorbing them equally into the general population. And ask yourself why it was handled that way. The answer doesn't say much positive for those folks.... and perhaps us, collectively.<<
Yep. We can take swats at each other here as to whether we agree with things or not, or whether the Indians "should" be able to do this or that, but the bottom line is the US Government took thier land, forced them into a treaty that gave them very little compensation for the devestation done to them as a Nation, and now they have some people wanting to take away what few rights they have left. They aren't even Americans particularly by choice...and this aspect of being an American isn't very pretty anyway.
I have a great respect for Indian history and past culture, and have done lot of reading about it. We complain about a minor matter here in what's "fair" for fishing, but these people were never given a chance at fairness in the big picture in history. I'm glad I don't have to convince anyone to agree with me here, because the Law is already behind them, and will ensure what few rights they have left---like it or not. |
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Location: N.FIB | I have a feeling this will be frozen soon,getting too much attention,good reading material though. |
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Location: The desert | The thread wouldn't get frozen if some people would realize that the Native Americans shouldn't have to live in tepees in order to maintain what 'rights' they were granted. |
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Location: Brookfield, WI | Pointerpride102 - 4/22/2010 4:00 PM
Out of curiosity, roughly how many walleyes do you think Native Americans have speared in the last 26 years?
47.
Edit to add: How man walleyes do you estimate the general angling population harvests per year?
201.
I like that fry bread the Native Americans make. That stuff is good.
Kevin
The Redskins took an OT from Oklahoma. |
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| Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
I really like that last bit towards the end. "I think I'm half indian or something like that".....okay, let's do the math, it isn't that hard really guest. Is your mom Indian? How about your dad? Well...that is a tough one isn't it? Pardon my sarcasm, but I think I may be half of an ass or something, which tends to make me somewhat surly.
My point being is that the whole, I'm a fraction of an Indian cliche' annoys me. Especially when it is used as a justification in maligning the group of people that you "claim" you share a commonality with. The fact is, I know that I have an ancestor who is a native american. I have photos of her and know her name and tribe. And by reluctantly doing the "math" that was so difficult for you, and using that stupid cliche' on myself, I find that I am one twelvth native american. Guess what that makes me? White. Because I can't and won't claim to share a common bond with a person of minority, when I don't, in fact, look like a person of minority. Most of my ancestors were white. And they and those like them were the ones who dictated the terms of the treaty. I would think that we all want to respect the wishes of "our" ancestors, and let their governance stand. Or should we instead claim that we are desended from fools or idiots?
Because you see, the treaties with the native americans weren't some silly thing brought about by some nameless government beauracracy. The treaties with native americans were brought about due solely to the efforts and political will of the people of the United States. Not the government leaders or the wealthy business entrepenours who desired the lands that the native americans held, and who would have kept taking and killing until no native americans were left alive on our soil. It was a resolution obtained because the political will of the people of our country demanded it at that time. During much of the destruction of these people, most americans were truly ignorant about how the natives were really being treated, at the same time that they were being barraged by the propaganda that the people of native culture were ignorant savages. Ironic, really that we reacted with savagery and fear to a people that were not a threat to us.
And that is how something as horrible as genocide occurs. With the tools of ignorance and fear. And although it took time, eventually the plight of the native people finally was revealed to the people of european descent who lived in the populated cities of the East. And it was their political will that finally forced the government to change their policies and slowly bring to an end the horrible genocide that had been occurring and was, in effect, almost complete. Our country finally found a conscience and did what they could to correct it in some small way. That is one of the many things that makes me proud to be an American.
And while there was no excuse for the ignorance that occurred back in the long long ago dark ages of 150 years ago. It is at least more forgivable than the ignorance that is on display in this day and age. When information can be found in an instant with a click of a mouse, how can we fail to see what our ancestors have had to relearn time and time again? The only answer is willful ignorance and that is a despicable trait to flaunt. The Cherokee people marched on the trail of tears singing bible hymns as they died. This is not some footnote in history that has no bearing on our present. We do owe them and the other native tribes something. Respect and their right to fight for what they believe in, for starters. And more importantly, the hope that we don't make the same horrible mistakes in the future.
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| Good grief...throttles it back. If you want to get all deeply philosophical, we ALL owe each other an equal measure of respect....nobody more or less than the other. But guess what...pretty much every single country on earth screwed somebody else in the process of becoming a country. Israel, the Australians, most every European and Asian country---and the good ole U.S. of A. It's simply a cruel part of world history.
So reign in the speeches about how grand your moralities in this area are. This thread is simply about recognizing the law-supported fishing rights that certain Tribes have in the Ceded territory, not whether the entire process of forming a country violated somebody's ancestral rights and what we do or don’t owe as a result of it. Simple matter---they DO have fishing rights that we don't, and have the law to support them.
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| Intelligence? - 4/22/2010 3:42 PM It doesn't make any sense. Why don't you look at some of their regulations and tell me how they compare to ours. This is what the Indians can take w/ hook and line AFTER after their netting season is done (in attachment below). Gill netting is wrong, no way around it. I'm strongly opposed to these people taking fish w/ gill nets and spears in the manner they do. This is a big deal in MN right now, especially Mille Lacs. Most of you guys do not know what is really happening around here. Some of these Indians do it because they can, and in a lot of incidents out of spite. Go ahead and call me a racist for wanting equal rights, in which this country stands for.
Edited by Baby Mallard 4/23/2010 8:18 AM
Attachments
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 MN_HookLine[1].pdf (16KB - 247 downloads)
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | Train wreck indeed.
If anyone had the resolve to actually read a copy of the "Treaty" you would find in the very first paragraph that " The President can, amend this treaty at any time" (Might not have all the words correct but it's there)
Do I see that happening anytime in my lifetime, nope.
Will there ever be a President with the balls to do anything, nope.
I am sure this post will be shut down now. It usually is after this fact comes up. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I know what's happening; we've had the treaties enforced here since the 80's. None of what this Nation 'stands for' is worth spit if the Treaties our Government entered into with those Sovereign Nations can be ignored because we decided to change our minds. Read the links I placed in an earlier post to gain a better understanding what those agreements mean, how the Tribes are engaged by our Government then and today, and what all that means to the rest of us.
It's just in the last 40 years 'we the people' in the country have experienced what could be considered close to 'equal rights'. Your privilege to buy a license and fish is not in question, it's the legal ownership (and therefore, stewardship) of the resource that's in those treaties and at question here. Our DNR has to set our limits in the Ceded Territories based upon the Tribes harvests which are set by agreements for the 'total allowable catch' (TAC) which represents safe harvest levels on each lake It doesn't matter how the Tribes harvest thos fish...legally,those fish are theirs to harvest any way they wish.
As I said, the Treaties entered into between the Tribes and the Government in Wisconsin and Minnesota may differ somewhat,I need to look them all over. One thing is certain, if the Tribes are challenging this Spring in MN, they already know exactly how those agreements read.
For over 100 years, 'we, the people' pretended those Treaties didn't exist, and that's been proven to have been illegal and in some cases grounds for considerable compensation to the Tribes. I hope the State of Minnesota is more successful in the handling of this issue than Wisconsin was. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Esoxer,
Threads of this sort are locked only when our permissions are broken so many times it ends up counterproductive to the conversation.
The President may amend the treaties, but the President is reportable to the two branches of our Government and would attempt that at his/her great political peril. The Supreme Court, our highest legal authority, upheld those Treaties in WI as written. That Court is comprised of Judges appointed by the Executive. Think about it.
Any changes would have to be negotiated carefully with the Tribes, and I guarantee Congress would not support any changes attempted just because we as sportsmen might decide we want them made.
I don't personally like the spearing, the limits we have here because of the spearing, or anything else that is the result of all of this. But hard reality is that's because we ignored those Treaties for a long time, got called out, fought them in court, and lost. And, once I got over the shock of it, I realized we SHOULD have lost. |
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| sworrall - 4/23/2010 8:54 AM
I know what's happening; we've had the treaties enforced here since the 80's. None of what this Nation 'stands for' is worth spit if the Treaties our Government entered into with those Sovereign Nations can be ignored because we decided to change our minds. Read the links I placed in an earlier post to gain a better understanding what those agreements mean, how the Tribes are engaged by our Government then and today, and what all that means to the rest of us.
Hate to say it sworrall but US gov't/Indian treaties were ignored and broken all the time in the 1800's/early 1900's, and seems to me what this nation stands for is definitely "worth spit" even with those transgressions. Hey, were not perfect.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | '
Hate to say it sworrall but US gov't/Indian treaties were ignored and broken all the time in the 1800's/early 1900's, and seems to me what this nation stands for is definitely "worth spit" even with those transgressions. Hey, were not perfect. '
Dirt,
What if was YOUR legal rights that were being stomped on? And what if that became 'OK'? What the Government did was wrong, and the Tribes went to Court and proved that out. That's how we roll in this democracy, and that's why the courts exist. Perfect we are not, but when our highest court speaks, that's about it. I was speaking to the trend in this conversation that leans toward where WI was in the early stages of the challenges by the Tribes, and it seems those lessons might be something to look to and learn from to apply as sportsmen to what's about to happen in MN. We had police from all over the State up here, the FBI, and no end of unrest....all for nothing but to punctuate and confirm the case the Tribes brought to the Courts.
I don't have to like it (And I don't, but come on...), but I do have to accept it because it's the law. Ranting on a message board won't change the Supreme Court decision. |
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| As for the article that the original poster inked to, it seems to me that if the Tribes have the right to fish when they want---and are not restricted to the seasonal dates that the rest of us are---then the DNR LE are wasting their time and the court's by following through with their threats to issue citations for any of the Tribe members who exercise their right to fish 1 day before the season opens. However, as stated by a previous poster, that just may the very point they wish to make. However, I'm only assuming that there is a way for each of the Tribe member to verify that they indeed are? A card, certificate, etc.? Otherwise, a LE officer is obligated to issue a citation until it can be proven that the fisherman was indeed exercising a law-supported right. He would be left with no other choice at that time. |
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| Here is an update. I think, if this is still on topic?
http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/91874519.html?elr=KArksU...
Anyone here follow the latest DNA studies? The "white man" and "Native American" actually have a common ancestor in Kaztkakan?(SP) |
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Location: Freedom, WI | A lot of individual people/tribes/businesses/races/religions/governments (watch the news and take your pick) have the right to do lots of things for what ever reason (again take your pick there are lots to choose). It still does not make whatever it is right. We need more of "do what is right" not "what we have the right to do", think about it. |
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Location: The desert | Guest - 4/23/2010 11:31 AM
As for the article that the original poster inked to, it seems to me that if the Tribes have the right to fish when they want---and are not restricted to the seasonal dates that the rest of us are---then the DNR LE are wasting their time and the court's by following through with their threats to issue citations for any of the Tribe members who exercise their right to fish 1 day before the season opens. However, as stated by a previous poster, that just may the very point they wish to make. However, I'm only assuming that there is a way for each of the Tribe member to verify that they indeed are? A card, certificate, etc.? Otherwise, a LE officer is obligated to issue a citation until it can be proven that the fisherman was indeed exercising a law-supported right. He would be left with no other choice at that time.
Posts like these make me laugh. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, yet posted away anyway. Yes, tribe members have a way of identifying to which tribe they belong. I guess I've got to give you a little credit for at least reading the initial article. |
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Location: Twin Cities, MN | I disagree that we are a constitutional Republic, we used to be.
Way too much power is centralized in the federal government and the executive branch as every day goes by. This was not the intent of our framers to my knowledge. The intent of the framers was to have a limited government with a balance of power in three branches.
That being said, I am sure the tribe haa already shopped for a friendly judge in Ramsey county, probably the same one who did such a complete job of reviewing the senate votes last year, as it worked very well in the original case in Wisconsin.
My personal opinion is that these treaties violate the equal protection clause of the constitution and should be completely struck down and started over. But has has been stated already, I do not see that happening any time soon.
Hey, I can dream...... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'A lot of individual people/tribes/businesses/races/religions/governments (watch the news and take your pick) have the right to do lots of things for what ever reason (again take your pick there are lots to choose). It still does not make whatever it is right. We need more of "do what is right" not "what we have the right to do", think about it.'
This is a Treaty with a Sovereign Government, not some business regulation WITHIN our framework or Not For profit Church designation. We took thier lands and put them on a reservation, and 'compensated' them with rights we then tried to take back after the treaty was signed. Is that the 'right' thing to do as a nation? Simple fact is the Supreme Court has already decided what was 'right' in Wisconsin's case and made it so despite all the hollering and yelling. Amazing. This isn't a case of YOUR constitutional rights or theirs, its a TREATY WITH A SOVEREIGN NATION that exists within our very borders.
Doing 'what's right' is entirely an interpretive issue. What a tribal member who HAS the right to hunt and gather regulated by Tribal law thinks is 'right' may not be what you or I think is what's 'right'.
Fact is, the Tribes have the Law behind the actions they undertake. If we collectively want to see the tribes limit the take they are entitled to, it won't happen by shouting racial epithets or throwing rocks or posting angry retorts like some that were deleted and a few that remain in this thread. It will ONLY happen if we as sportsmen can acquire a dialog with those who negotiate the TAC and positively influence the process. Hasn't happened much in WI since the early 80's to a large degree because of the public mindset and public behavior here. Some of the Tribes do indeed sometimes limit their take, some never do.
I am somewhat surprised folks are not interested in learning from the absolute train wreck we had in WI in the 80's and to date. if it's handled better in MN, perhaps the outcome may be more positive for everyone who hunts and fishes the ceded territories.
It appears from the article link above that the Leech Lake folks are doing what they can to defuse the possible nightmare PR scenario the protest would bring. I hope they are successful. |
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| >>Posts like these make me laugh. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, yet posted away anyway. Yes, tribe members have a way of identifying to which tribe they belong. I guess I've got to give you a little credit for at least reading the initial article.<<
Clear up for us all just what it is that you believe you've added here with that psot then? "Yes, tribe members have a way of identifying to which tribe they belong...."? Go search the net for a while and find us a real answer here, then come back with something more than your previous typically empty post to enlighten us all with. Ready...go.
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Location: The desert | Thank you Steve. People are talking like the Native Americans are some special interest group. They are not, they are their own Nation, with their own governments. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? Some of you need a history lesson, or 5. |
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| I have to agree with the other guest that pointers comments very rarely add anything to the conversation yet he feels compelled to talk down to everyone like he is the smartest person in the room. You are not always the smartest person in the room and just because people have a different thought process than you does not make them wrong. In this debate as with most others there is a myriad of ways to look at the situation and come to a conclusion and just because someone does not agree with your line of thought does not make them wrong. |
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Location: The desert | Guest - 4/23/2010 1:55 PM
I have to agree with the other guest that pointers comments very rarely add anything to the conversation yet he feels compelled to talk down to everyone like he is the smartest person in the room. You are not always the smartest person in the room and just because people have a different thought process than you does not make them wrong. In this debate as with most others there is a myriad of ways to look at the situation and come to a conclusion and just because someone does not agree with your line of thought does not make them wrong.
When peoples beliefs or opinions on the matter are based off of completely incorrect 'knowledge' likely passed down by dad and grandpa, then they are wrong. Period. The opinions I've read on here are not based on facts from the treaties. They are based on opinions passed around by a group of white folks at a bar talking 'smart'. You can think my comments rarely add up to anything all you want, I couldn't care less. Unfortunately, I will not back down on this topic. If you don't like it, don't read it. There are not a "myriad" of ways to look at this situation. The situation is pretty cut and dried. |
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| OK, to get back on thread here...even though this is a "hot-button" topic, it is good to have some basic knowledge of what's being talked about. Kudos to MF for letting it run a while. Check this out:
“Here’s a quick quiz: what group of Americans is granted dual citizenship the moment they are born on American soil? If you guessed Native Americans, you would be right.” (So, what does that mean?)
http://www.wabanaki.com/mba_article.htm
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Location: Hudson, WI | Was the Red Lake situation a "cut and dried" scenario or was new legislation between the GLIFWC and the State made to resurrect the fishery? |
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| Pointer you again prove your arrogance. This matter, as with just about everything else in life, is not cut and dry or black and white as you would make it seem and there are a myriad of other ways to look at the issue. Again just because you think you are right does not make it so. And to assume that my, or anyone else', knowledge is based purely on opinions pined by (using your words) white folks sitting at the bar is speculative, arrogant, and racist on your part. Again pointer you are not the smartest person in the room and continuing to tell people you are not only not only reduces your credibility, but reaffirms that fact. |
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| Who funds these "sovereign" nations??
Editors Note:
Look it up, it's not hard to do. Gain an understanding how the reservations are formed, tribal Governments are formed and run and what is required by the US Govt, and much more.
http://www.academicinfo.net/nativeamdllegal.html
http://www.findlaw.com/01topics/21indian/gov_laws.html
http://law.jrank.org/pages/8754/Native-American-Rights.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/indian-treaties-and-congresses
http://www.google.com/search?q=Native+American+treaty+Court+Cases&h...
Important to this discussion:
http://www.mpm.edu/wirp/ICW-110.html
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Feel free to explain the "myriad" of ways to look at this? This is a sovereign people with treaties backing up their rights. Cut and dry. This isn't a special interest group where the white mans general interest has an influence on what is right and wrong. These rights are stated in black and white, in the treaties. Period. They've held up in the highest US court, time and time again. You may not like it, but that is too #*^@ bad. This has nothing to do with arrogance on my part. This has to do with black and white facts, written in the treaties, held up in the United States Supreme Court.
I have never stated I'm the smartest person in the room. Those would be your words. Insinuating that others are not knowledgeable and ignorant to the facts is simply calling a spade a spade. Sorry if this is not politically correct and hurts your feelings. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Point Pride Wrote, " When peoples beliefs or opinions on the matter are based off of completely wrong 'knowledge' likely passed down by dad and grandpa, then they are wrong. Period. The opinions I've read on here are not based on facts from the treaties. They are based on opinions passed around by a group of white folks at a bar talking 'smart'. You can think my comments rarely add up to anything all you want, I couldn't care less. Unfortunately, I will not back down on this topic. If you don't like it, don't read it. There are not a "myriad" of ways to look at this situation. The situation is pretty cut and dry." PP - Excellent post. This is common truth behind a myriad of issues (muskies are the big bad wolf that decimate all other populations in lakes, so on and so forth) I'm not getting in the mix here, but realize how many walleye's the NA tribes stock in our Northern WI waters. . . It seems only fair that they take some of what they put in, out. PS: I think it's funny I used "Myriad", too. . . Had to edit this lil' PS in here. Ubl Out!
Edited by Sam Ubl 4/23/2010 2:33 PM
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Location: Freedom, WI | Sworrall - Point I am making is think about it, you seem to be stuck on the law/treaty thing ( I agree yes it is binding and the law). Does it make it right, segregation was legal and they figured out it needed to be changed. All sides need to figure out what is right (open mind needed) for everybody and everything (resources/environment/fish/game), the right thing is usually somewhere in-between. This was all set in motion long long ago, times change whether we like it or not. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | this thread reminded me of this scene ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbP6l6Fl4PA |
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| How do you argue right and wrong here? Is it "right" that indians can spear with reckless abandon when they no longer need the fish for sustinence OR income? Is it right that I can only take two walleyes from "my" lake, even though I actually NEED that food right now? Is it right that I have to abide by these regulations because of something that took place before my ancestors even came to this country? Is it right that we feel so entitled that we're angry about a treaty put in place between two sovereign nations? What if they decided that they wanted the ceded territory BACK? Would THAT be right?
Times may change, but how we got to those treaties certainly does NOT and the Supreme Court proved that. Personally, I'd rather see a situation where the Indians exercise their rights to hunt and fish in a responsible manner, for sustinence, as was originally intended, and not kill what they can because they'd rather see the fish dead and rotting in a ditch than see us be able to catch them. My ancestors may not be responsible for the genocide that took place. But that genocide is why Northern Wisconsin is available to me. I try not to forget that. |
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Location: Illinois | While there is a plethora of of opinions, there is only one truth. Pointer is right. Sworral is right. We can't grant a right and then take it back later because Joe White guy has a sense of entitlement. The fact that these atrocities against the native population occurred many moons ago matters not, a deal is deal and a treaty is our word to these nations. Look at the bigger picture, and learn from the past. |
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Location: The desert | Taxpayer - 4/23/2010 2:23 PM
Who funds these "sovereign" nations??
Potawatomi Bingo and Casino, Mole Lake Casino etc. |
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| >>>Taxpayer - 4/23/2010 2:23 PM
Who funds these "sovereign" nations??
Pointer: Potawatomi Bingo and Casino, Mole Lake Casino etc.<<<
LOL. True, but funny. |
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Location: New Hope MN | Pointerpride102 - 4/23/2010 1:19 PM
Thank you Steve. People are talking like the Native Americans are some special interest group. They are not, they are their own Nation, with their own governments. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? Some of you need a history lesson, or 5.
They lobby all the time. Ever hear of CAGE? citizen against gambling expansion. Notice it doens't call itself abolishment. They are funded by the tribe and have spent millions on both DFL & GOP. They are one of the groups fighting to restrict cantebury park from expanding, legalization of private casinos, ect. |
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| Steve, your rigid view on this issue disappoints me. You're a leader, I wish you would act like one on this issue.
This whole conversation, like almost every other conversation, begins and ends with one thing: money. Check the following link if you're curious about how much funding these "soverign nations" receive annually from the aforementioned genocidal, "smart talking white" American taxpayers:
http://www.maquah.net/clara/Press-ON/02-03-22_table.html
If you don't feel like following the link, the total is $121 million. Just for Minnesota. Back in 2000. I couldn't find more recent info in the 30 seconds I spent looking, but I guarantee that the dollar amount hasn't decreased since then. The "soverign nations" I keep reading about are soverign right up until that check shows up. Suddenly it's nice to be a citizen of the US of A.
You want status as a soverign nation, capable of signing and enforcing treaties, you got it. But then don't expect the same people whose resources you're exploiting in the name of those treaties to turn around and write you a check every month for, among MANY other things, road maintenance, drug abuse research, maternal and child health services and job training. That's called hypocrisy, which is what a lot of the "holier than thou" posters on this topic are exhibiting.
If there were ever a will to truly treat all people fairly in 2010 (lest we forget, we don't live in 1850), the massive flow of money to these "soverign nations" would end until there was a treaty in place that clearly delineated the self evident truth that ALL men are created equally. Seems like I read that somewhere else once. That equal treatment would extend to the equally administered use of PUBLIC resources such as our lakes and rivers. The likelihood that we will see the day that a political leader has enough passion for this topic and enough guts to take a stand is minimal, but to portray this fight as settled business is the easy way out. |
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Location: The desert | So now they are citizens of the US? Those reservations sure are ritzy from all that money too.... |
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| PJonas,
Great Post. Shows exactly where the $$$ goes! I don't know Pointer they may want to be citizen's of the US but if they were, no free $$ would show up! |
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| Who said they weren't? If you're born here, on reservation or not, you're a US citizen. And what does the "ritziness" of indian reservations have to do with rights granted to one group and not another based on race?
My point to you, and anyone else who wants to hide behind the "treaty with a soverign nation" rationale on this topic, is that everything, and I mean everything, comes down to who writes the check. Absent $121 million plus from the federal government (aka you and me), it's safe to say that life on the res in Minnesota would be significantly less ritzy than it is now, and I agree, that's saying something.
In my mind, the issue is not whether tribes got a raw deal back in the day. They did. The issue is not whether spearing is eqitable to all parties. It isn't. The issue, in my humble opinion, is whether taxpayers should be compelled to subsidize, to the tune of $121 million in 2000, an inequitable administration of a public resource.
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Location: The desert | You make excellent points PJonas. I've never said I'm 100% on the side of the Native Americans (just like Steve has stated). We don't have to like it but it is what it is and the treaties have held up in the courts time and time again. I'd venture to guess that there is some sort of stipulation as to why this money goes to the reservations, and I'm sure part of that reason is politics (see governor Jim Doyle). I don't think the Fed. gov't just donates the money to them as a peace offering out of the goodness of their hearts. But I guess you never know with the current and past administrations......
The fact is, the chances of things changing are about as good as getting lanced by frozen blue toilet water falling from an airplane. If the hatred for the rights they have would die down and become non existent, I'd bet you'd rarely have the Big Carr Lake type stories. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | PJonas,
We provide billions to Israel, a tiny country far removed from the US but vital to our interests. From a US Government accounting:
'Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II (not counting the huge sums being spent in Iraq). The $3 billion or so per year that Israel receives from the U.S. amounts to about $500 per Israeli.' Yet we cannot provide what is guaranteed in the treaties in exchange for adoption and formation of tribal governments using a format proscribed by Washington DC? And those to the people we sent to reservation and stole huge tracts of land, timber, and mineral rights from? THAT's hypocrisy.
By the way, I'm not 'leading' in this discussion nor am I intending to; I feel I'm offering an educated perspective. Accept it as such or not, that's up to you. I really don't care if I disappoint you, in fact in this case it appears I should be glad I did.
---'You want a status as a Sovereign nation?'---
What's THAT? They ARE, they need not want. It's not hypocrisy, it's reality.
What's with all the 'equality' issues you try to inject? The Native Americans were given the hunting, gathering, and harvest rights in the treaties OUR Government entered into with them; those rights are theirs in exchange for the land we took from them, and guess what....those are, by law, THEIR resources. The fact we effectively for over 100 years stole those resources from them, got caught, got called out by the Tribes in front of the bench at the Supreme Court....and now are upset they want those rights returned--- sort of proves it out.
Those are not 'public' resources in the Ceded Territories, they are the Tribe's first and ours when they have finished harvest for the year unless the States negotiate the sharing of them; both in harvest and in management. That's been done here in Wisconsin, read about it please. The tribes can, if they wish, spear a lake to ZERO harvest for us, but in most cases that doesn't happen.
You can fish and hunt too, no one is telling you you can't. Your privilege to fish isn't at question.
The 'fight' was taken all the way to the Supreme Court by Wisconsin and the Fed S Court refused to hear the case. (saying this for about the umteenth time). The tribes here won in court, and won easily. End of story. It IS settled business from the legal avenue. I'm trying to shout over the sometimes racist and many times uneducated rants here that there are other avenues, that we need to shut up, study up, and look at cooperation and joint management as an effective and workable model. You want to 'fight', and I'm saying you will do far more harm than good in the process. I saw what happened to the same scenario in the 80's here. Were you sleeping through that, or what?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | unless you're making 113,000.00 or more you aren't really making that big a tax payment so check yourself at the door before getting your martyr badge.
i'm not puttin' it on anyone in particular ... but, i think the words "taxpayer" get thrown around a little loosely sometimes. there is paying taxes and then there is PAYING TAXES. top 10% of wage-earners doll out 75% of the bill.
it seems the indians aren't the only ones "being funded" |
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| Steve,
My disagreement doesn't stem from a lack of understanding of your position. I just think you, Pointer and others are looking at this all wrong.
Your Isreal example is perfect. How do you suppose we impose our will on the Israelis? Not through treaties, certainly not through threat of force. We threaten to withhold MONEY. To look at it another way, how has the government made it de facto illegal to smoke. Tax policy. In other words, it gets so expensive to smoke, that people either can't or won't do it. It could be legal to smoke anywhere you want, but if a pack of cigarettes costs $200, nobody would. The same is true of tribal spearing. If the real threat, or actuality, of loss of funding were imposed, the COST of spearing would outweigh the benefit.
Put another way, I'm willing to stipulate that the soverign indian nations have the right to spear if you're willing to stipulate that we have other ways to approach the issue that make it far from the open and shut case you portray it to be. |
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| One other thing, Steve. I rarely post here because interesting topics usually degenerate to name calling, and then what's the point? I'm not saying you've "slept through" anything, and I know I haven't. I recognize your position, but respectfully disagree. I hope you, and everybody else, can do the same. |
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| Johhnysled,
I couldn't agree more, but that's a different topic for a different thread. The fact is SOMEBODY is paying taxes, and in my opinion, the portion of those taxes that is subsidizing spearing is unjust. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I recognize your position, but respectfully disagree. I hope you, and everybody else, can do the same'
really...then why this--, I ask?
'Steve, your rigid view on this issue disappoints me. You're a leader, I wish you would act like one on this issue. '
Make up your mind.
There's no tax dollars 'subsidizing' spearing. You need to educate yourself on this issue, seriously. Look up GLIFWC. Look up the Voigt Decision. Look up the BIA and it's function in our Government. Study the History behind all of this, and THEN stomp around about the treaty rights...if you still feel the need.
From the BIA Website:
What We Do
Services Overview
'The United States has a unique legal and political relationship with Indian tribes and Alaska Native entities as provided by the Constitution of the United States, treaties, court decisions and Federal statutes. Within the government-to-government relationship, Indian Affairs provides services directly or through contracts, grants, or compacts to 564 Federally recognized tribes.'
See that phrase---government to government---?
There's more, I suggest you read it, in order to grasp how we ended up where we are with Tribal/US relations in 2010. Then maybe my reference to the 3 billion dollars in aid to Israel, which could have been to ANY Government anywhere in the world, will make better sense to you.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i wish you would agree with me ....
i would like my cake ... and i would like a fork so that i can eat it too ....
get me some ice cream ...
signed
anonymous |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Well, you had some good points till the whole subsidizing spearing comments.
Steve is dead on. Read the GLIFWC. My guess is we wouldn't be on page 4 of this thread if those chiming in about rights had actually read it. Because, unfortunately for you Guest, the issue is pretty cut and dry. If it wasn't it wouldn't have held up in the Supreme Court time and time again. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | sled, you are killing me. |
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| KSauers - 4/23/2010 6:58 PM
BenR - 4/23/2010 7:54 PM
KSauers - 4/23/2010 6:50 PM
top 10% of wage-earners doll out 75% of the bill.
That's got to change and it soon will. That 10% should pay it all. That way the 90% would be solely dependent on the government. The 10% would pay such high taxes they would be as poor as the 90% . The new america. I can't wait.
So out of touch and angry...
It's exactly because I am in touch that I am "angry". Angry about what's happening to my country. Just watch any news channel or read any paper.
Well based on your post it would seem more like you are drinking kool-aid vs paying attention...also it is not only your country....BR |
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Posts: 678
Location: Twin Cities, MN | Well I do not like kool-aid, but I would very happy if somebody can tell me just how our country is going to pay off a debt bill that is projected to reach 20 trillion by 2020. Why can the government spend money that does not exist and I can't ?
I blame them all, both parties have spent money like drunken lemurs for well over 50 years to get us where we are today.
Kick them all out of office and put term limits on every level of government, even if it takes a constitutional convention. And no running for office while in office.
The spending by the federal government is not sustainable.
Difficult decisions need to be made by leaders who do not see politics as a career or who buy votes with the taxpayers money. We shall see if any show up in November.
Pal |
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