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Posts: 39
Location: branchburg NJ | I have always wondered why pike are found across the pond in europe and other parts of the world and muskies are confined mostly to the upper parts of the united States and canada. Im sure the rest of you guys have wondered the same thing and if its possible for them to survive anywhere else. Anybody have any ideas? |
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| I always wondered that myself.
Maybe pm esox archeologist he might have the answer.
It would be cool to see some big skis from across the pond, But I kind of like the idea of pure strain muskies being unique to us.
Sounds kinda selfish huh  |
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Posts: 536
| and why are there muskies in one lake and a half mile away there is none! were talking unstocked lakes that is! |
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| muskyyaker - 4/16/2010 8:25 PM
I have always wondered why pike are found across the pond in europe and other parts of the world and muskies are confined mostly to the upper parts of the united States and canada. Im sure the rest of you guys have wondered the same thing and if its possible for them to survive anywhere else. Anybody have any ideas?
Is it because muskies evolved out of the pike line; and only in a place--North America--where certain conditions were met? Like the conditions around the Great Lakes?
Why are they in one lake, and not in a lake a short distance away? Maybe because of interconnected waterways. Only certain waters were connected; and they could not migrate over land.
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Cast,
That's it. Add in other methods like occasional 100 year or 500 year style flooding and 'milk can' stocking, perhaps. Muskies evolved to where they are after the ice age, as I understand it. |
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Posts: 574
Location: Elk Grove Village, IL & Phillips, WI | We may have muskies in North America, but Asia has the beautiful Amur Pike, Esox reichertii! No where near as big as their cousins. There still might be some left in Pennsylvania, since they were stocked as an experiment a while back. Here's a picture I found on the web.
Edited by KenK 4/19/2010 9:05 AM
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 Amur Pike.jpg (97KB - 243 downloads)
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Posts: 292
Location: SW MI | That is a really cool looking Pike! |
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Posts: 3147
| somebody enterprising needs to go drop a few in the former soviet union,,,same type of terrain/geo,,after a few years??? |
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| That might work, Just the think about fishing a stocked lake in former USSR that gets absolutely no fishing pressure. Awsome! but probibly would not be a good idea. Just look at the issues we deal with with exotic fish in our lakes.
But who knows?... maybe ten years from now we will see fly in muskie fishing in former USSR. Its always about the money to some people  |
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| guest - 4/19/2010 10:36 AM
That might work, Just the think about fishing a stocked lake in former USSR that gets absolutely no fishing pressure. Awsome! but probibly would not be a good idea. Just look at the issues we deal with with exotic fish in our lakes.
But who knows?... maybe ten years from now we will see fly in muskie fishing in former USSR. Its always about the money to some people :-(
Ps, I was not implying Happy hooker was all about the money.
He does a lot of thankless work for muskies, as we all know. Just wanted to clarify my thoughts a little.
BTW..KILLER LOOKING PIKE!!! |
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Posts: 574
Location: Elk Grove Village, IL & Phillips, WI | Here I found a couple more Amur Pike pictures.
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amur pike 2.jpg (14KB - 346 downloads)
amur pike 3.jpg (44KB - 601 downloads)
Amur pike 4.jpg (62KB - 3192 downloads)
Amur pike 5.jpg (125KB - 881 downloads)
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That bottom dude looks as amazed as the fish. |
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Posts: 425
| Those look like some pretty sweet fish. |
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Posts: 536
| some pictures they look more similar to a muskie than a pike but the one picture inside a fish tank is a dead give away! |
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Posts: 28
Location: mankato, mn | i guess when you have pike like this, you don't need muskie.
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euro pike2.jpg (261KB - 374 downloads)
euro pike.jpg (267KB - 342 downloads)
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Posts: 620
Location: Seymour, WI | I bet Larry Ramsell could speak to how the musky evolved throughout the great lakes region.
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| Grass - 4/20/2010 12:16 PM
I bet Larry Ramsell could speak to how the musky evolved throughout the great lakes region.
Whoever can explain it accutately, it would be a very interesting story to hear. But maybe--I don't know--even the brightest of scientists cannot yet explain the evolution precisely. |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sweet!! It would be fun to travel abroad after muskies..... not that i can even afford to drive up to MN.... but it would be cool! |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Last first: Steve, Germany "tried" muskies or more likely tiger muskies at one time or wanted to...never heard how it ended up. Muskies were stocked one time in N. Africa (of all places) but I don't think they took.
As for the Great Lakes region, the muskellunge didn't actually "evolve" there. The actual "evolution" of the muskellunge I don't think has ever been explained or understood. What is known is that the muskellunge came from the lower Mississippi River behind the "melt back" (not retreat as is so often claimed) and up the Mississippi River dispersing from there into the watersheds where they are known to be "native" today. That was some 12,000 to 10,000 year BP (before present).
If one uses a bit of imagination along with a modest bit of geological research, one can envision how muskies got to the places they are today. In "allopatric" situations (historically muskies and no pike) it is usually a case of no ingress or egress after water levels reached there final determination. In "sympatric" situations, you will find that the later coming "northern" pike had access via interconnecting waterways and in most cases still do (or did before man's dams).
Some simple examples: After glacial melt, water levels were "much" higher than they are today and in fact, much of muskieland was covered with water and lakes not longer present...some of them covering huge sections of north america's northland across Minnesota, Wisconsin and southern Ontario.
Other routes of advancement were the major river tributaries; The Ohio River and its branches above its meeting with the Mississippi River was the major eastern route. There were many other routes that do not now exist, such as the ones thru Minnesota into western ontario and into the Great Lakes via the Wisconsin River and thru the former passage above Lac vieux desert into Lake Superior and of course watercourses thru northern Ohio and into Lake Erie.
Lake Nipeeing "used" to be part of Georgian Bay before the land settlement known today and it now drains south into Georgian Bay proper. Lake Nipeeing "used" to drain to the east and into the Ottawa River, but of course does not now.
A fasinating subject to be sure and one we'll have to spend more time discussing, but I have to go for now.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
Muskellunge Historian for ALL of North America
www.larryramsell.com |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Got in a hurry and made a couple of mistakes above and too late to edit:
The "melt back" I referred to was of the last glacier.
Lake "Nipeeing" should have been Nipeeing (have tried to edit this three times and the MF program keeps changing it back. This spelling is incorrect but it isn't my fault! For reference it is the big lake at the head of the French River).
A good book I found was "Historical Geology" by Carl O. Dunbar..2nd edition. Also, the History channel recently had a great show on how the Great Lakes were formed that was extremely informative...Larry
Edited by Larry Ramsell 4/21/2010 2:55 PM
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Posts: 341
Location: Passaic, NJ - Upper French River, ON | Lake Nip-is-sing , and there are no muskies.
Edited by gimo 4/21/2010 6:49 PM
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Posts: 291
Location: New Jersey | there are muskys in lake nippeeing, i caught one. From what i understand, there are alot of musky in there.
Edited by muskyhunter34 4/21/2010 7:15 PM
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| There ARE Muskie in Lake Nip-iss-ing at the upper French River. I personally see at least 10 per season!
Last year a 60 year old bass fisherman boated his first Muskie! A 54" beautiful Muskie. He brought it to the lodge for photos. I thought for sure it was dead. When he said he wasn't going to keep it. I had that fish back in the water so FAST! I walked it for 45 minutes with no response from the fish and just when I was about to give up she stiffened up and her eyes moved. I shot her down to the bottom with all my strength. She surfaced but held herself up. I followed her around for another half an hour till she mustered the strength to disappear under the surface.
It was a great day at camp! I love those victories!
Dawn
Sandy Haven Camp |
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| A bit off subject but I Have always thought it would be really awsome to cross bread some of those monster northern from poland with leech lake strain muskies. I would think you could produce a world record tiger. |
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Posts: 32
| unfortunate how NA doesn't have over-sized Euro pike.
dam
Edited by adamsnez 3/27/2011 6:58 PM
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Posts: 158
| IMO we as anglers are the ones to blame for the small Northern Pike. They are just WAY over exploited. There just isn't a catch and release mentality by lots of those who catch Northern Pike.
I would like to keep a pike or two this summer to eat, and know that there are TONS of guys who do the same. |
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Posts: 35
| I believe there are enough differences in the species that we can state that they don't need to be treated the same. However, where there are good conservation efforts made to protect NP in the States they do relatively well. They do breed more successfully than muskie for a various number of reason, egg production, spawning habitat, temperatures, habitat conducive to such activities, and the age of sexual maturity.
The amazing number and size of pike in Northern reaches of Canada will attest to such reasons. True that many may believe pike are nuisance fish, but when they smell like... gross... and will readily attack anything, the become great fish for sport and food alike. Do you find lakes full of "hammer-handle" only muskie? They are almost similar to a bluegill in their ability to survive but match their surrounding in terms of a relation to size and numbers.
NP are excellent predators but become destructive at times to other game fish based on numbers in a lake. I feel that Pike vs. Muskie is similar to Walleye vs. Largemouth Bass (although I understand that W and LB are not in the same genius), walleye are tastier and can grow larger but lakes with LB often turn to LB lakes without recommended harvest efforts, similar to M vs. NP, which do you want?
How do you manage every lake individually with proper care under a standard guideline? It takes time and money, but can be done, only through the efforts of recommended regulations and sportsman compliance. Look at some WI lakes, Delavan (NP) vs. Pewaukee (M) or Mendota (NP) vs. Monona(M) ? Which is a better plan... depends on which fish you like more, b/c all options are good for the fish they hold properly. You need truly large lakes with distinct habitat like Leech (W and LB) or LOTW (NP and M) to establish both populations true trophy size well. Nothing wrong with trying to keep and eat or catch and release any of the species when the management for the lake(s) is understood.
Evolution allowed all these fish to survive for different reasons long before man ever entered the picture, we just need to continue to understand why and facilitate the situations as much as possible.
My $.02
-DZ |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | Those Amur pike are cool-looking, like a cross between a brown trout and a muskie. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Guess this thread has morphed from a muskie thread to an Amur Pike thread...
Amur Pike are native to the Amur River that borders NE China and SE Russia. They were brought to the US many years ago by the Pennsylvania Fish Commission who at the time were heavily involved in research of all of the 7 Esocid species. They were initially called "Russian Muskies", but they are more closely related to Pike ("northern" is something that was added by anglers in NA), even though they look very much like a spotted muskie. PA tried every possible hybrid cross with the various esocid species. Most failed to mature and several failed completely. The cross between Pike and Amur Pike was successful and made a very facinating looking specimen.
The largest Amur caught in PA was 28 pounds...I know of none larger from the Amur River, but then that obsecure area isn't likely to do much promoting of same! It is highly doubtfull that they grow as large as either Muskies or Pike.
Based upon some of the real giant Pike that have been taken from various waters in Europe, it is entirely possible they grow as large (or perhaps larger?) then our Muskies do!! The largest I am aware of was netted in Germany and weighed almost 68 pounds!! |
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Posts: 43
Location: Bonn, Germany | Want to have muskies over here in Germany...this is the most exciting fish that I know...It is the fish in my dreams:D:)
Pikes are cool, especially the big ladys, but I think your muskies in America are a nother league and are the dream of each esox fisherman...the fights, that I´ve seen in videos are looking pretty cool and much harder than the struggle of a big pike;)
we need muskies in europe!!!! |
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| guest - 4/19/2010 10:36 AM
That might work, Just the think about fishing a stocked lake in former USSR that gets absolutely no fishing pressure. Awsome! but probibly would not be a good idea. Just look at the issues we deal with with exotic fish in our lakes.
But who knows?... maybe ten years from now we will see fly in muskie fishing in former USSR. Its always about the money to some people :-(
My friend is in Moscow for work for 2 years. He says for the most part they only go fishing one way: with nets. |
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Posts: 28
Location: mankato, mn | I believe this is the 28lb fish from Pennsylvania.
(amur-pike-world-record.jpg)
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amur-pike-world-record.jpg (129KB - 268 downloads)
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Yep, that's it...looks skinny because it had been gutted and gilled (kept). |
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| Thank you Mr. Ramsell and Mr. Worrall for your insight into what happened 10,000 years ago. As muskie fishermen, we are honored to have living fossils like you who can reveal such first-hand knowledge. (jk.....or maybe not!) |
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