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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | Do fish caught with a guide mean as much as one caught without a guide?
The obvious answer is a fish caught is a fish caught. But if I am out on Green Bay trolling by myself, I can have three(3) lines out. If I hire a guide to troll GB, we will have six(6) lines out and all fish will be landed by me. See my point? |
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Posts: 1425
Location: St. Lawrence River | Ive though about the same thing a lot. Also keep in mind there putting you on the fish as opposed to you working to find them |
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Location: Illinois | Don't overanalyze things, Johnnie. Each catch is special, and if you think otherwise, you're only cheating yourself. |
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Posts: 7048
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Do you mean how they "count" to you, or in your accounting to others? Your fish count to you however you count them.
Which brings up the though of why do you care how they "count" to others? |
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| Even if you have the guides lines out and the client catches a fish on one of those rods,he still has to be able to set the hook,keep slack out of the line,free spool if a green fish exploads near the boat and finaly get the fish next to the boat so the guide can net the fish.Clients loose fish all of the time,mostly from slack line or tightening the drag even when you tell them not to.Yes,he may have a bigger atvantage with more lines out,but it does not take away the fact he had to fight the fish to capture it.I see it no different then two people out fishing that toss a coin for the first fish,that person who won the toss has both sets of rods!Then again in the current of the Niagara River its hard enough running two rods,at Chautauqua Lake with the floating weeds anymore then 4 rods will give you the most tiring workout cleaning weeds then you can handle at times.
Capt. Larry D. Jones |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Slamr - 3/23/2010 3:04 PM
Which brings up the though of why do you care how they "count" to others?[/QUOTE
oh slamr, there's an entire chapter of musky fishing 303 that deals with other people counting, measuring and judging your fish whether they were there or not.
carry-on
Edited by jonnysled 3/23/2010 3:16 PM
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Posts: 7048
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | jonnysled - 3/23/2010 3:13 PM
Slamr - 3/23/2010 3:04 PM
Which brings up the though of why do you care how they "count" to others?[/QUOTE
oh slamr, there's an entire chapter of musky fishing 303 that deals with other people counting, measuring and judging your fish whether they were there or not.
carry-on
And we wonder why people see muskie fisherman as "elitist"? We even pee on each other's accomplishments.
Sled, when it gets warmer, we'll kill some big lake fish together! |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | jonnysled - 3/23/2010 2:13 PM
Slamr - 3/23/2010 3:04 PM
Which brings up the though of why do you care how they "count" to others?[/QUOTE
oh slamr, there's an entire chapter of musky fishing 303 that deals with other people counting, measuring and judging your fish whether they were there or not.
carry-on
I seem to recall a treatise authored by Muskie Hopeful about such a subject. Very specific coefficients of relative value placed on a fish based on everything from it's origin and purported genetics to the method of capture. The actual numerical values escape me at the moment.
As I recall, one can't get much lower than a 'mutt' hatchery fish caught trolling out of a guide's boat. 
S. Edited by sorenson 3/23/2010 3:45 PM
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | To clarify: if you're being guided and hook a fish casting you get .6 and the guide receives .4, if you were trolling with a guide you get .2 and the guide gets .8, if your buddy is using your lure to catch a fish you get .1 to .15 depending on the lure, sucker caught fish get count as .75 and fish caught preseason while fishing 'eyes count .33, sublegal fish count as .33.
Hope this helps, and remember, the muskie police are watching! |
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Posts: 8785
| Okay... Let's clear it up once and for all:
Fish are scored on a point system, for a total of 10 points. You earn a point if any of these are true:
1. You were running the boat
2. You were casting
3. You chose the lure
4. You chose the color of the lure
5. There was no guide present
6. Nobody showed you the lake
7. Nobody showed you the spot
8. You were using your own lures and not someone else's
9. The fish was there by means of natural reproduction
10. You caught the fish on a figure 8
You subtract a point if any of the following are true:
1. Fishing out of someone else's boat
2. Trolling
3. Using a lure someone else recommended
4. Using a color of lure that someone else recommended
5. You were fishing with a guide
6. Someone else showed you the lake
7. Someone else showed you the spot
8. Using someone else's lure
9. Stocked fish - everyone knows they are easier to catch because they are stupid
10. You caught the fish at the end of a cast or mid cast -- that was a suicidal fish, and would have eaten anything thrown it's way.
Edited by esoxaddict 3/23/2010 4:42 PM
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| Honestly should stocked fish really count? Fish farm raised fish, bought and stocked...then put in lakes they cannot get out of. Sounds like high fenced/pen hunting...not really what I would call a sport. BR |
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| What????? So all of those fish that my dad caught on his reel, in his boat, with his lure, on his lake that he found---and then handed the pole to me to reel it in---left me with 10 negative points each time? Dang! I’m down a ton of points that I didn’t even know about. 
(Of course, they were just Sunfish. And maybe those rules only apply to Muskies???) |
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Posts: 73
| So, then...if you miss landing a hooked fish when you've hired a guide, is it OK to blame the guide for that, and therefore it doesn't "count" against you when you’re telling your story to the “judges”? After all...it was his boat, and probably a lure that he recommended. I guess it really shouldn't mean anything at all, then.
Edited by Jim Munday 3/23/2010 7:54 PM
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| Looks like if you caught the next World Record Muskie Trolling,You would get ZERO POINTS! Like it or not most of the Biggest Muskies in the World are caught Trolling!
Capt. Larry D. Jones
www.mostlymuskies.com |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | Flambeauski - 3/23/2010 3:47 PM
To clarify: if you're being guided and hook a fish casting you get .6 and the guide receives .4, if you were trolling with a guide you get .2 and the guide gets .8, if your buddy is using your lure to catch a fish you get .1 to .15 depending on the lure, sucker caught fish get count as .75 and fish caught preseason while fishing 'eyes count .33, sublegal fish count as .33.
Hope this helps, and remember, the muskie police are watching!
LOL thats funny! |
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Posts: 1456
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Enjoy fishing.
Enjoy the Chase.
Motorhead got it right.
Edited by Cowboyhannah 3/23/2010 8:36 PM
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | A musky is a musky. I guess some people are in the sport for different reasons that I am..
I will say that I feel a greater sense of self-efficacy when I catch a musky while out on my own compared to fishing with a guide. In general, it usually feels good to accomplish things on your own, same idea can apply to catching a musky. That said, I often prefer fishing with someone else and using team work to catch fish and sharing the experience with others.
To each their own. |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | So Ben,
The Tigers that you fish for in Co. don't count , ? or what ? Oh, I get it now, "pened fish"..... I must be thinking with my Feet,..... I just got back from a long day at work,5:30- 7:30 pm, so I'm not sure what this thread is REALLY about...........................Sorry..
Jerome
Edited by Top H2O 3/23/2010 9:05 PM
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Musky fishing for so many is such a tug-o-war with ones ego - Count, not count? Count for what? It's a fish. A great slimy Bad A55 fish, but if you don't make any money chasing them, a catch doesn't count for anything except inflation said ego. Heck even when getting paid to do so, an individual fish doesn't count for anything.
Focus on fishing - Not statistics |
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| Top H2O - 3/23/2010 8:48 PM
So Ben,
The Tigers that you fish for in Co. don't count , ? or what ? Oh, I get it now, "pened fish"..... I must be thinking with my Feet,..... I just got back from a long day at work,5:30- 7:30 pm, so I'm not sure what this thread is REALLY about...........................Sorry..
Jerome
You worked for two hours this evening and you are complaining? |
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Posts: 28
| Take this scenario- two average musky fisherman with equal skills and experience, both get out fishing 10 times in one season. One does everything on his own, lake choice,spots,baits,boat,etc and puts 3 in the boat out of ten times. The other hires a guide for all 10 trips and scores 6 fish. Both meet at a bar after the last outing, and the guided one says "hey, I put 6 fish in the boat on ten outings this year" the other is sitting there with his three. Is there a difference? I think so. A lot less effort on one.
In all reality, who cares, everybody is out there with their own idea of what expectations they have and how they measure success. If you hire a guide, you are paying for that time on the water experience, pattern that is working, fish location, etc, more power to you, enjoy it. I don't think it is a apple to apple comparison though.
pmv |
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| Maybe he worked from 5:30 A.M. to 7:30 P.M.
Do tigers count for you Ben? |
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| Hard Worker - 3/23/2010 9:37 PM
Maybe he worked from 5:30 A.M. to 7:30 P.M.
Do tigers count for you Ben?
I don't fish for score, I enjoy the outdoors and enjoy being in the outdoors...so I don't really understand your question...I fish because it feeds my soul and is good for me...I do like tigers though, but also a small brook trout...I guess they all count for me, but not for score...
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| Well I guess I don't understand your question about 'Honestly should stocked fish really count?'
Is catching stocked fish a sport? |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Good one ,Ben!
Thanks for the Chuckle.
Jerome |
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| Hard Worker - 3/23/2010 9:54 PM
Well I guess I don't understand your question about 'Honestly should stocked fish really count?'
Is catching stocked fish a sport?
It was sarcasm due to the silly nature of the question at hand...BR |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | sorenson - 3/23/2010 3:44 PM
I seem to recall a treatise authored by Muskie Hopeful about such a subject. Very specific coefficients of relative value placed on a fish based on everything from it's origin and purported genetics to the method of capture. The actual numerical values escape me at the moment.
As I recall, one can't get much lower than a 'mutt' hatchery fish caught trolling out of a guide's boat.
S.
Thanks for the nod, Clark. Since my return to the links, few remember me or my extensive musky research, though most of my findings were published exclusively here on this website.
Kevin
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| esoxaddict - 3/23/2010 4:28 PM
Okay... Let's clear it up once and for all:
Fish are scored on a point system, for a total of 10 points. You earn a point if any of these are true:
1. You were running the boat
2. You were casting
3. You chose the lure
4. You chose the color of the lure
5. There was no guide present
6. Nobody showed you the lake
7. Nobody showed you the spot
8. You were using your own lures and not someone else's
9. The fish was there by means of natural reproduction
10. You caught the fish on a figure 8
You subtract a point if any of the following are true:
1. Fishing out of someone else's boat
2. Trolling
3. Using a lure someone else recommended
4. Using a color of lure that someone else recommended
5. You were fishing with a guide
6. Someone else showed you the lake
7. Someone else showed you the spot
8. Using someone else's lure
9. Stocked fish - everyone knows they are easier to catch because they are stupid
10. You caught the fish at the end of a cast or mid cast -- that was a suicidal fish, and would have eaten anything thrown it's way.
1. What if you are fishing with a friend out of his boat, but you are directing the places to hit?
2. Trolling requires a lot of skill and knowledge and is a traditional way of taking muskies.
3. Who hasn't thrown a lure that was recommended by someone else?
4. Ditto on color.
5. I agree, fishing with a pro guide isn't as tough. But the angler still has to make the cast and bring the fish to the boat.
6. Everyone gets recommendations on what lakes to fish. They'd be stupid if they didn't ask.
7. What if a Fishing Hot Spots map recommends the spot?
8. Who cares who owns the lure. You threw it.
9. If you think stocked fish are easy, come East young man, come East.
10. Before I declare a fish suicidal, I want to see the note. "I'm going to hit this artificial thing--even though I know its not real--because I want to die."
But let me say that this is only a sport; and no one should get worked up so long as the rules of law are followed. Have a good time, guide or no. I hope your next one is a 50. |
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Posts: 7048
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I think many of you are missing the sarcasm in a lot of the posts here.... |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | If you disagree with the points system, bring your complaints before the Judge (MuskyHopeful). Arguing about them on this forum will do you no good. |
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Posts: 462
Location: Antioch, IL | Slamr - 3/24/2010 9:01 AM
I think many of you are missing the sarcasm in a lot of the posts here....
If it were not for all of the sarcasm around here I would have left a long time ago. Being a true smarta$$ is an art form and there are some real Da Vinci's on here.
salmr, Hopeful, Benr, sled, sworrell, ToddM, and the list goes on.....(even Pointer for the low brow stuff, although most of his stuff rightfully takes the fast train to the recycle bin)
Shine On you Crazy Diamonds |
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Posts: 1425
Location: St. Lawrence River | PMV - 3/23/2010 10:36 PM
Take this scenario- two average musky fisherman with equal skills and experience, both get out fishing 10 times in one season. One does everything on his own, lake choice,spots,baits,boat,etc and puts 3 in the boat out of ten times. The other hires a guide for all 10 trips and scores 6 fish. Both meet at a bar after the last outing, and the guided one says "hey, I put 6 fish in the boat on ten outings this year" the other is sitting there with his three. Is there a difference? I think so. A lot less effort on one.
In all reality, who cares, everybody is out there with their own idea of what expectations they have and how they measure success. If you hire a guide, you are paying for that time on the water experience, pattern that is working, fish location, etc, more power to you, enjoy it. I don't think it is a apple to apple comparison though.
pmv
I like the way you said that |
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Posts: 9
| I see your point Johnnie. More lines more problems??? I can barely manage the one but I don't troll for the lunge I seek. I see the problem, however this day and age it's not uncommon. Guides are for learning how to fish for muskies I thought? I'm out of the loop in the lunge world these days. I've seen guys with 1 line do worse though. Just jig em! |
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Posts: 723
| If you fish for everyone elses opinions,
you are losing what these fish will mean to you upon capture.
go fish, catch fish, take pics, and if you want the criticism of others,
post your pics on here, along with the LxG. hehe
if you feel that those fish caught with a guide dont mean as much to you,
hopefully the info you learned that day is,
and you'll use that on your own time someday. why not? you paid for it right?
this sport is about learning, making yourself a better fisherman,
continuing to better your PB, or numbers of fish per year.
and plain out right having fun, enjoying time on the water, time with friends,
and whiping sweet slime on your pantleg with a smile.
there are a lot of ups n downs in it, take the good with the bad,
but dont ever put yourself or the fish down because you did what you did to catch one. If the goal is to put fish in the boat, then do just that,
every legal method possible that is
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Posts: 86
| Slamr - 3/24/2010 9:01 AM
I think many of you are missing the sarcasm in a lot of the posts here....
only the ones who count fish... |
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Posts: 126
| I think a lot of it has to do with the person and the reason they hire the guide. There is nothing wrong with going with a guide on new waters to help shorten a learning curve. You go out, see what baits work and the general type of structure fish are using etc. Now the guys that spend $700 on a rod/reel setup, can quote every word of Musky Hunter, but couldn't actually do it are a different story. Some of these guys fish maybe three of four times a year with a guide, catch a fish and they think they are gods, that's a little different. Some of these act like they did it all on their own, when in reality, they wouldn't know where to start. Armchair types you could say. |
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Posts: 393
Location: Hopefully on the water | Triton1, very well said. Everyone hire a guide for different reason. Also reading what you have read and actually implementing it are too different things. Having a $700 setup doesn't make you a better fisherman. Maybe gives you a little better edge on equipement but if you don't know how to use it it does you no good. I have been out with guides 9 times in my life. I have only caught fish with guide 2 of those times. But every time that I have been out I have learned something from each guide each time I have been out. So just by hiring a guide doesn't garuantee you a fish but something that you may have picked up from them can give you a lifetime of knowledge. Each is to their own for why they hire or don't hire a guide let it be. Plus success and personal best is measured only in the eye of the beholder. |
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Another Guide Question