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| This thread stems from another post. It seems that some believe that there is much that we know of the "why's" of musky behavior. I thought it would be interesting to see how much that is the case. I am hoping that we could start a listing of any behavior that someone thinks they know the reason as to "why" a musky does it or possess it.
If indeed we can establish such a list, it will surely help many musky people here. If we can not establish much of a list, it will serve to point out how we REALLY catch this (and I suspect most) fish.
I realize that some of us could pull out TONS of stuff to back up why certain behavios may take place, but I'm looking for two things: only behaviors that directly catch us more fish, and ones where there is no debate from the research end.
How long would this list be????????
Any takers?????????? [:devil:] | |
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| I'd like to know this....3 weeks ago they went on a binge in the river here(of course I had to work) + for about 3.5 days many BIG fish were hooked + lost, w/ the biggest one being about 38lbs.....weather was scorching, conditions miserable...seems they then shut down....all this occured during the mid day![:0] | |
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| Lol Annon...I do need to try to analyze a little more rather than just go on basic instinct! Trouble is me gray matter won't retain such complex intuitions....[:sun:] | |
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| Anon,
If what you say is true, the time on the water any angler spends successfully or otherwise patterning the fish is all so much bunk. I couldn't disagree more. I spent 15 years of my on the water time keeping very careful records including cross reference to a Barograph and Solunar Tables. I have a pretty good idea many times exactly WHAT the general population of Muskies are doing on the lake I am working, as a result of years of exposure to that water. I also have a pretty good idea as to the why, because I have taken the time and extended the effort to carefully study the species and know it's generally accepted habits, habitat, prey, and behaviors ( and even more importantly, the limitations) that are associated to these and other environmental factors.
If this is not possible, what makes for a 'great stick'? Luck? Good guesses? NO!! Experience, study, and time on the water. Your argument directly refutes the basics of Jlong's formula from the IN FISH boys, unless I am reading it out of context.
I have absolute confidence I CAN many times put a why and a what to the behavior of the fish I am trying to catch.
Tournament Walleye and Bass anglers who score in the top twenty on a consistent basis apply this knowledge base every day they are on the water.
None of us is always right every day on the water. The largest challenge one has to apply is the fact we can't see down there very well, so one MUST apply what one knows to form a plan of attack on any given day.
What Joel is asking is legitimate. I have some answers ( I think), but am re-reading the material I base those on to be sure I am on solid ground.[:bigsmile:] | |
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| I'll admit, most of the WHY questions in regard to specific BEHAVIOR is tough to prove and will always be considered speculation. However, I do not usually spend much time asking WHY did a muskie do that. I've seen them do some absolutely wierd and amazing things that, quite frankly, I don't want to know WHY they did it.
Most of the stuff I ask why about does indeed have a textbook answer. I usually ask WHY in an attempt to learn about the musky's environment and then speculate how those environmental conditions will influence the fish. This is basically my attempt to predict musky LOCATION. Things like the seiche affect (current after the wind stops blowing), stratification (thermocline), forage (entire food chain), weather changes, etc. These things help explain WHY a musky will be in a certain location.... which helps me narrow down where to look for them.
As far as PRESENTATION goes, I do not ask WHY would a musky eat/strike this lure over another. However, if I want the most visible presentation, I'll ask why will orange be brighter than green? Water clarity, sky conditions, wind, depth, etc. will influence what is the most dominant wavelength of light for your lure to reflect and be most visible. There IS a textbook answer to these types of questions. There is NOT, however, a textbook answer for whether the most visible offering will be the most productive. That brings in behavior, which is tough to prove.
Bottom line, I will not settle for "why" alone. I will not settle for experience alone either. I think the best approach is an Intelligent approach combining BOTH experience and science (textbook knowledge). If I had to choose one over the other, exerience would be number 1. But to say that asking WHY is not necessary or a waste of time because it cannot be PROVEN is just plain ignorance. Experience is priceless, but I'll go to my grave saying a smarter fisherman is a better fisherman. Asking WHY shows you have an inquisitive mind and a desire to learn. Knowledge is power.... and experience is just one form of knowledge. | |
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| Sponge, My guess why the fish went on a mid day feeding binge could be water clarity. In the rivers I fish, if the water is on the muddy side, it's best to fish during mid day, I guess because of more light penetration. Also, it's been my experience that rivers are better to fish during the heat of the summer. Don't know why, but the hotter the better. In fall, I can't bye a muskie from a river, go figure. | |
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| sworrall:
Why would you be studying "coin" ("specie" is just that) when you should be studying the "specieS" (Esox masquinongy)? I am sure that is what you meant, right?
Dr. Crossman corrected me on this point years ago and I thought I'd pass it along.
Shall look forward as to how this basic discussion progresses. Great answer jlong!
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com | |
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| Larry,
If you fix your spelling of 'studying', I will fix 'species'. Actually, already did. Good point!
Was a typo, which is common for me as I cannot type... [:bigsmile:] [:sun:] [:blackeye:] | |
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| Right you are Tomster...AND--> the increased flow of water from the dam evidently had a big impact on the binge; they opened the flow for a couple weeks + the outdoor section reported such in the weekly paper today! Sponge Babe is in coastal Jersey 'til Monday so little sponge + I will be hitting the local zoos this weekend...at least I know somewhat WHY now![:sun:] | |
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| Sponge..... IF the increased current (WHY) from opening the dam triggered that binge..... and you can speculate HOW that current will dictate WHERE those big fish (WHO) will be on the prowl.... all you need to know to cash in on the NEXT BINGE is WHEN they will open the dam again and take a guess at WHAT they will eat (probably anything if they are agressive)!
But.... you would never figure that out if you didn't ask WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you fish the river every day... chances are you will enjoy the next binge. But, if you can only fish the river one day in the next 2 months.... I bet you might try to plan your next trip during the next scheduled "draw down". A wise use of your time.... in my opinion. | |
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| Have been gone fishing for a few days.........I gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed in you guys!!!!!!!! Where is my list???????
jlong
Cisco kid
Anony
MUSKY ILLINI
SWorrall
You all talk in the main post of needing to know the "why's" or make inferences that you know some "why's" or talk of the importance of the "why's". Where are they and what are they? I fully expect that Steve will load my computer some morning with more stuff than I can read in a week (looking forward to it Steve [:)] ) but what of the rest of you. Any imput?
Anony,
Argue????????????????? I'm not arguing with anybody here. I'm doing what I always do on this board, looking for information and giving some when I think I have something to contribute. If I had thought this discussion (and it has been a good one) had degressed into an argument I would have bowed out long ago. Sorry you see it that way, just trying to prod the mental wheels of some into action.
I can see that we have very different views of a "what" and a "why". Your "When they close their mouths aropund a bait" analogy is just the type of thing I'm talking about, yet you see it just the opposite of me. I think the "closing of the mouth" is the "what" and all the other examples that you gave would be the "why". I realize that there could be any number of reasons that a fish "closes its mouth" over my bait, I would like to know the "why" for sure, I will guess at what I think it is, I may even do some experimenting to try to find a "why" that I can hang my hat on, but in the final analysis I just don't think those asnswers are as important as the "what's". | |
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| Lol Jason...unfortunately me next "binge" will most likely be at Shoneys or the Crab Shack! I've had less time than ever this summer to get out but WILL attempt to get the release schedule for the dam this fall...thanks![:sun:] | |
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| Joel, there is no list of PROVEN why's when it comes to BEHAVIOR. We will never know those answers. If we did, fishing would lose its mystique and simply be a form of harvesting.... not a hunt.
Asking WHY is simply an approach to help you adapt to the ever changing conditions with some consistency at predicting WHAT will work. If you simply rely on what worked in the past for the current conditions you face, you may miss out on a FUTURE bonanza.
Take a look at some of the links that Al Warner recently posted on the Research Board. Understanding the textbook science behind how light interacts with water and knowing the function and biology of the musky's eye.... you can somewhat confidently explain WHY things work at certain times. What color lures get hot, where a fish will locate under various sky and surface conditions, etc. MIGHT be explained by some of that material. But to know exactly WHY a musky clamps onto your lure will forever remain a mystery. Thus, you will never get a list from jlong in regard to behavior.
Joel, I like your approach in theory.... but I don't expect you to find any proven answers.... from any of us. | |
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| jlong,
Thanks for the post. I agree with everything you had to say. It really is what I was driving at with this whole mental exersize. We really don't catch fish by knowing the "why" because as you have said we really don't know and probably won't know in most cases.
As a guide I find people asking me the "why" question all the time and it is just the type of discussion that we have had that ensues. It has made me realize just how little we actually know about "why" this fish does what it does. We may have ideas, lord knows I have mine, but when it comes right down to it the vast majority of the fish we catch are due to our or someone elses past experiences - one reason boards like this are so popular. Beyond that, resorting to "why" a fish will be in a certain location or doing a certain thing is just conjecture, educated conjecture, but still conjecture, I just focuse on the FACT that they will be there and doing certain things. If we do enough "why" fishing sooner or later we will connect, but was it for the reasons that we hypothesized to begin with - no way to know most of the time.
The "why" approach is really the only way (aside from getting info from others) that we can grow our "bag of tricks". I think we just need to be carefull to temper what it is that we think we "know' when we get creative and score, because if we were as smart as we think we are we would be scoring with new "why's" all the time. My experience has been that they are very few and far between and when they do score I usually don't know the "why".
As I stated at the begining of all this talk, I really don't care. I have realized long ago how unimportant all that theorizing is to my ability to catch fish. But that is due to doing this for a long time and also to having contact with others who have done it a long time. Pretty soon your "bag of tricks" gets you through most stituations. | |
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| Remember seekers of answers...for all the WHYS, there are ANSWERS...all ANSWERS begin w/ a WHY...all WHYS end w/ an ANSWER...we begin life wondering WHY this + WHY that...our lives contain a daily diet of WHYS, + no doubt at days end the majority of WHYS have yet to be ANSWERED...the important WHYS are retained + carried into the next day to be added to the ongoing list of WHYS...the ANSWERS are there somewhere, yet often evade us for great lengths of time...some WHYS can be ANSWERED immediately; some take years of searching...some ANSWERS are shared readily while others remain embedded w/in the confines of an individual or group of individuals....the longer it takes one to find a particular ANSWER to a personal WHY, the greater the satisfaction the person experiences from such a discovery! While many ANSWERS may be found at surface level, some require a "mental" pick axe, shovel + sifter in order to obtain the end result of WHY...over the years I have become somewhat cofused trying to find ANSWERS to the many WHYS, + have found meself to be incapable of above average intellect, so I have found closure; when I ask myself "WHY"?, I say "WHY NOT"! [::)]
**Joel, remember the old cartoon "Felix the Cat"? Reaching into a bag of tricks worked for him![;)] | |
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| Sponge-
was there stable weather for a couple weeks and the fish turned on when a storm started brewing?
marv | |
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| To ask why and to know why are two different things.
And for argument sake, you never know for certain WHAT works either. Thinking you KNOW what will work based on past experience can be just as bad as overcomplicating things with too many WHY's.
The only benefit asking WHY has is it MIGHT spare you many many many many many many many many fishless hours trying to learn WHAT works through trial and error.
Asking why accelerates your learning curve. Just look at the current craze with open water fishing. Some guy (the debate still rages on who that person was) just blindly stumbled into fish out over the deep basin. Then, that "dumb luck" was reproduced because he tried it again based on the prior success. It took many many moons for "fate" to make that "fluke" happen again.... and it took many many more moons for it to happen again..... and eventually people began to THINK they knew WHAT was going on. Asking WHY are those fish suspended helped make some sense of that madness. By asking why we began to understand the dynamics of an everyday phenomena that eliminates a lot of "dead" water and turned a "needle in the haystack" pattern into a predictable and efficient pattern. That is the power of WHY. If I just relied on WHAT works.... it would take me centuries to determine which basins on my favorite cisco based lakes will consistently produce suspenders.
I think we all are in agreement here.... we are just playing the game of semantics to help get people to share information. Yet another way for us to accelerate our learning curves about this darn fish and how to catch them.
This discussion has become "Why ask Why?"
Which is a good question [:bigsmile:] | |
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| All this discussion of "why" leads me back in time to me childhood and although this discussion has nothing to do with the "whys" of that era, the answer appears to be exactly the same as what I received from the experts of that time (me parents).
Question: Why? Answer: Because!!!...[:)] [;)] [:0]
Just kidding you guys, actually your theories have been very interesting and enlightening. I like these kinds of threads. | |
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| Here we go agian, kids.
jlong,
That was well said, my friend.
Everybody,
As your attourney I highly advise that you run for your life and never, never, never, NEVER ask "WHY". You are just asking for mental anguish. Ever since Jason Long introduced my to this "WHY" world I have experieced the many, MANY symptoms that go along with "Jlongitis".
1. Lack of sleep
2. Spliting headaches
3. Loss of the ability to be "SATISFIED"
4. Irritability
5. 50% reduction in productivity at my real job
6. Multiple ulcers
7. Total loss of patience for people with weak minds
8. An elitist attitude about the fact that I HATE PEOPLE WITH ELITIST ATTITUDES!!!!!! (Ironic dont ya think?)
MUSKIE ILLINI
"...."WHY" or "WHY NOT"....there is no "what"...."
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| Marv, actually the weather was pretty much stable during the "binge"...we finally had some storms this past week, when of course the wife decides to head to south Jersey to frolic on the coast + visit the "rents"![:(] Hopefully as the world turns, I won't fall off next time! | |
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| Hmmmm.... this thread looks like a good winter discussion.... yet it was written in the summer. I wonder why? Haha.
jlong | |
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A list of "Why's" to musky behavior.