Posted 1/14/2010 10:08 PM (#417366) Subject: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Just read an article that was based on the idea that fewer Muskies were being caught in a particular lake because they had become "educated" to the lures that were being used a lot. Hmmm...
What do you think...do Muskies really remember lures they’ve been caught on? If so, is it only for a short while or for a long while? Do they remember shapes only, or color too? How good is their memory and power of reasoning really? (Whoa...I remember getting nailed by that white double-bladed lure a few days back. I'm not falling for that again!!!)
Or...are they just driven by instinct the majority of the time, and strike whatever comes into their field of vision when the bite is “on”?
Posted 1/14/2010 10:12 PM (#417367 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 1237
Location: South Portsmouth, KY
After seein a fish hit a lure then loose the fish and while your reelin it in and its hits again on the 8 druing the same cast i w ould say that their memory sucks! People tend to overthink these fish.
Posted 1/15/2010 1:17 AM (#417379 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 8824
I'd put them somewhere between Cheech and Ozzy...
Marc Thorpe
Posted 1/15/2010 5:25 AM (#417389 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Fish do posses the ability to associate a bad experience to a particular place or vibration.
This seems more prevalent with fish that have been recaptured over time and most prevalent in dominant fish.
They do learn avoidance in my observations
Marc Thorpe
Posted 1/15/2010 5:46 AM (#417391 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Just an added note,it must occur within the same year
From one year to the next they forget
Avoidance of vibrations can be sustained for one year to another,especially high pitch or frequency vibrations
Posted 1/15/2010 7:40 AM (#417407 - in reply to #417389) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 2361
Marc Thorpe - 1/15/2010 5:25 AM
Fish do posses the ability to associate a bad experience to a particular place or vibration.
This seems more prevalent with fish that have been recaptured over time and most prevalent in dominant fish.
They do learn avoidance in my observations
I concur, though I am not sure what the sequence of events might be that leads to avoidance. I am guessing some muskies are the pheasants that slip out the far side of the hayfield about the time they hear a truck door slam.
Posted 1/15/2010 7:52 AM (#417413 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
I'm certain conditioned response has been discussed on here before. A search would probably yeild plenty of reading on the ability to learn vs. conditioning.
Posted 1/15/2010 8:07 AM (#417417 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Muskies do not possess frontal lobes. Their brain is pretty basic, and very small. In short, kinda dumb.
As far as 'memory' as we know it, I wouldn't worry about it too much. A negative association has to happen so many times to condition the fish it isn't very likely.
I tend to look at what response the stimulus (lure and total footprint) I'm presenting overall, big picture. I've recaptured dozens of tagged muskies over the years, some multiple times in a year on the same presentation. As far as sensitivity and avoidance to a particular frequency of vibration, keep in mind the slightest change in about a hundred variables will change that vibration, so it's not as common as one might think that a fish is exposed to the same exact footprint.
Look into stimulus/response with a creature as absolutely stone stupid as a fish and draw your own conclusions. Why do some lures start out so hot, and then follow a predictable curve down ro 'average' in the caught fish catagory?
In a nutshell, the first time the fish is exposed to the footprint, all things considered, the strongest response. Hence, a totally new and well designed footprint will be 'hot' until there are so many of that particular footprint presented the thing becomes part of the landscape, so to speak....at which time one needs to look at conditions and location RE: the likelihood of a sought after response.
Posted 1/15/2010 10:06 AM (#417450 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN
I agree that it is more of a conditioning response than anything. As far as lures go, my best lures five and ten years ago are still my best lures.
I believe that fish do get turned off when a particular lure is over-used on a body of water for an extended period of time. On my favorite lake, the affectiveness of large lures appears to have dropped way off as they have been used heavily for several years now. While at the same time, many of the more standard lures have continued to produce at the same or even higher rates. I believe this is because the standard lures became the less-used lure and were actually something different.
Anyone who has been fishing with me knows that a CJs spinner bait of some type will be on at least one of my rods at all times. What has been interesting is how our productivity with those spinner baits went up when everyone else started throwing the big baits. For many years, we averaged about one Muskie every 6-8 hours in my boat. Three years ago, when the big lure craze hit, our average spiked up to one Muskie every 3.5 hours of fishing. Two years ago it slowed slightly to one fish every 4 hours of fishing, but with a 45 inch average, and last year it returned to a more normal one fish per 5 hours of fishing. What is interesting is that as we stayed with our standard baits, our productivity seemed to go up and down relative to what others were throwing and returned to more normal levels after more people returned to more standard type lures.
Do fish have a memory? I doubt it, but they do get conditioned. For me, a key to catching more Muskies is observing what others are doing and then doing something different. And often times "something different" is what you have been doing successfully for years.
I am now hoping for another "hot" lure this year for the masses to jump on.
Posted 1/15/2010 10:18 AM (#417453 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois
I think muskies think with their stomach. The hungrier they are, the dumber they are. I'vee seen a couple that were almost suicidal. My belief is that memory plays an insignificant part.
Posted 1/15/2010 12:00 PM (#417479 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Yeah, Muskies can act very stupidly when they are hungry and will sometimes hit anything. But those times when Muskies are super active are the exception and not the rule.
My experience is that Muskies are in a neutral or negative mood most of the time. That is when conditioning has the greatest affect and that is when it helps to be aware of what the fish may be the most conditioned to. A "different" presentation then will often have the best chance of inducing a strike. Sometimes it takes a different lure or just a different color. Sometimes it takes a change in speed - slower or faster. And sometimes it takes putting that lure right in their face to trigger a response bite. But, it almost always takes something different than what everyone else on the lake is doing.
I had a lot of fun a couple of years ago following boats that were throwing nothing but big bucktails. I would throw a small to mid sized spinner bait and would often get Muskies to eat when the big bucktails produced only follows. Why? The fish saw a lot more big bucktails than smaller spinner baits and the spinner baits ran deeper and so were more likely to trigger a response strike. A couple people got really ticked at me after I caught fish behind them, but they had first crack at the fish.
My experience is that while Muskies may hit anything on a given day, less used or "different" lures will often produce more fish over a period of time than the popular "hot" lures that everyone else is throwing.
Posted 1/15/2010 4:07 PM (#417551 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 540
Yah I would agree with getting conditioned and also muskies being more neutral and negative most of the time too! I try to fish lakes that are less pressured and alot of time alll I will get is follows from curouis fish more than anything else that has no intention of feeding or I am doing something wrong, wich I think has alot to do with it but I try to keep up with different styles of new baits alot too.
Posted 1/15/2010 6:31 PM (#417587 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 8824
It's my belief that over time, muskies get used to seeing lures on heavily pressured waters, and unless they are actively feeding and chasing anything that moves? You'll be far less likely to catch them than you would on unpressured waters. I think it becomes something that's just part of the environment to them.
Fish can certainly be conditioned to various types if stimuli. Anyone with a fish tank can tell you that the fish know when you are about to feed them. But let's not forget -- they're fish. Not a whole lot going on upstairs except the biological drive to eat, reproduce and the instict to avoid becoming prey.
Obviuosly, whatever conditioning that takes place when you catch them either doesn;t last very long, or doesnt happen often enough, because if it did you'd bever see them caught more than once.
Shane Mason
Posted 1/16/2010 5:37 AM (#417646 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
You can train a goldfish to shoot hoops and play fetch, through positive reinforcement
So I think negative reinforcement like say having 7/0 rammed through your head might just do it as well.
stidecave
Posted 1/16/2010 7:26 AM (#417647 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Any aquarium fish ,after a short period of time are able to know where they can swim and where they cant
they just have to break their nose into the glass a couple of time,its unpleasant for them and then they will magically stop.
So if a big musky have been caught several time on a lets say a 10 inch jailbird believer what its going to happen next time he saw one near his mouth?
Posted 1/16/2010 9:55 AM (#417674 - in reply to #417667) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 111
We saw a training video at work regarding positive and negative re-enforcement. The researchers in the video were performing studies and brought in a Northern Pike from Minnesota and placed it in a tank filled with water. Then they put minnows in a clear glass tube and lowered it into the water. The northern was hungry and kept ramming the glass tube to try and eat the minnows it could see, but the glass prevented the Northern from eating the minnows. After many attempts the Northern finally stopped trying to eat them. After a while they removed the tube and let the minnows swim free. The minnows swam right in front of the Northern but the Pike did not even attempt to eat them. The Northern finally starved to death with minnows swimming all aroung it and it did not try to eat them. Made me wonder how that type of behavior modification would translate to fish hitting lures.
Posted 1/16/2010 10:26 AM (#417678 - in reply to #417674) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN
Larry Dahlberg did a great seminar about that, and that he searches for the "mothers milk" in the lake. What is the baitfish of choice, and he stated that they do get conditioned to positive and negative experiences, they cannot reason on why but understand it was not a good experience, just like when a kid places their hand on hot stove, they don't know why it is hot, just bad. So bait that closely resemble the same freq/vibration as food, will get bit. Immitate mother nature, simplicity.
Troyz
John
Posted 1/16/2010 12:38 PM (#417704 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
I know some people on here are saying that muskies do not get conditioned. I agree that they aren't the smartest creatures around but to say that after getting caught they aren't harder to catch for some time period is just plain wrong in my opinion. Where are you guys fishing? Hitting a bait and spitting is not the same as being netted and captured in my opinion. A fish that tasted hook briefly will come back on a bait and eat again sometimes. But a fish caught, netted and photographed is unlikely to be fooled again for a while.
John
stidecave
Posted 1/16/2010 12:46 PM (#417705 - in reply to #417667) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posted 1/16/2010 1:06 PM (#417707 - in reply to #417705) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 8824
stidecave - 1/16/2010 12:46 PM
sworrall - 1/16/2010 9:27 AM
She'd probably eat it.
wrong answer
In order for any sort of conditioning to actually stick, it has to be re-enforced again and again, and very often. I don't believe that one negative experience, or even a handful is going to change a muskie's behavior, and certainly not going to leave a lasting impression from one season to the next. It takes longer than that to train your dog.
I can see where it's easy to think you've just conditioned a fish when you've had once chase a lure a few times and then you don't see it again. But then if you think a little further into that, there's probably other things going on. 1. It's used up its energy and now isn't moving 2. It was actively feeding, and during that time it managed to catch a meal 3. It has moved on
I will say this, though: I used to fish in the Madison area almost exclusively. Pressured fish, for sure. Lots of lures flying around, day in and day out... I do not recall EVER seeing the same fish follow more than once. Follows were pretty common, but if they didn't eat the first time? That was the last you saw of them that day.
On the other hand, when fishing in Canada? There have been many times where I raised the same fish a couple times before I actually caught it. I had the same fish up 13 different times over the course of a few days, in fact. NEVER seen that happen in the urban fisheries down here.
food
marc thorpe
Posted 1/16/2010 2:41 PM (#417712 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
The difference between understanding a negative experience and how fish relate to it, is dependent on the number of days one fish's and your sample population a yearly capture rates,not factored is high fishing pressure which also adds.
Over the years I have sampled and observed enough to draw conclusion to avoidance and why it occurs .
Yes areas can be sterilized to the point of avoidance from resident fish or complete vacancy of the area and relocation.
They can associate a bad experience to certain vibrations within the same year and one year to the next with high frequency lures,thus avoidance is instilled.
One bait ,one year syndrome
I do agree agree under the right conditions fish will commit a mistake once again.
Everything pertains to frequency
Its also individualistic traits but certain frequencies can effect populations over time also.
factor in all vibrations Emmit from a boat,motor,electric motor,vibrations from movements in the boats and high frequency lures.
For any living animal,it must learn the basics of survival which is learned from negative experiences
stidecave
Posted 1/16/2010 4:55 PM (#417735 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posted 1/16/2010 6:17 PM (#417747 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 2361
Some are confusing conditioning to what might better be termed attenuation or extinction, ie the idea that it takes something novel to get a response from the fish. I don't agree with that at all, and in fact I believe there is research showing that the best response takes some actual familiarity and recognition. All this aside, I don;t believe either treats musky memory. Nor does either speak to what M. Thorpe is talking about.
I believe some fish associate bad things with fishing boats, people, shiny balding heads, whatever, and do make various responses that in the end, avoid contact with whatever ques they associate with danger, or insecurity(such as it is for a fish). I also believe some fish are naturally more wary than others and may never have had a particular experience that was negative, they simply avoid the whole boat approach thing on an instinctual basis.
That fish don't have rudimetary learning associated with negative stimuli has never been proved, imo.
Experiments have shown that they do learn avoidance. Experiments also show that natural wariness can be selected
for and show selection pressure in relatively few generations. (IL bass experiment).
One fish being dumb as a box of rocks doesn't mean the finding can be generalized to ALL FISH.
Posted 1/16/2010 10:01 PM (#417789 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
'Some are confusing conditioning to what might better be termed attenuation or extinction, ie the idea that it takes something novel to get a response from the fish.'
I'm certainly not.
'I don't agree with that at all, and in fact I believe there is research showing that the best response takes some actual familiarity and recognition' With that, I'd disagree.
Posted 1/16/2010 10:01 PM (#417790 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
'Some are confusing conditioning to what might better be termed attenuation or extinction, ie the idea that it takes something novel to get a response from the fish.'
I'm certainly not.
'I don't agree with that at all, and in fact I believe there is research showing that the best response takes some actual familiarity and recognition'
Posted 1/16/2010 10:52 PM (#417798 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 2361
Sworrall, out of your THREE responses to my post, all with quotations of my post(and believe me, I like to be quoted!), I'm thinking the one where you put the "I'm certainly not." at the end of your post, instead of nestling it in my quotes, I'm thinkin, that one is MUCH more powerful.
Posted 1/16/2010 11:12 PM (#417799 - in reply to #417798) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion
Mus kies ARE Stupid !!!!...... Vibriations my arse...... When they are hungry they will eat a cigar on a hook, if dangled in front of their face !
Come on, A lot of the same fish are cought and released umteen times each year, .......Their brain is SUPER SMALL ..... If it moves,.... It is Food.......
You guys are Trying to make the mighty muskie into some kind of a super Hero, when their just a STUPID FISH .
Posted 1/16/2010 11:13 PM (#417800 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
fsf,
Or perhaps...not!
Jerome,
I'm known for a comment I have made many times, something about the muskie's 'intelligence' being comparable to a box of rocks. I don't think that's where FSF is going with this.
I will catch a muskie on a child's wooden block next year. Already have caught them on a pine cone. And, I've caught quite a few on a wire wrapped with a pretty good portion of a Whitetail's arse and a nice natural metal blade rotating on it. Number one producing Muskie Lure of all time.
Posted 1/16/2010 11:38 PM (#417805 - in reply to #417800) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion
Steve,
bring me one of those for pre fishing Peewaukee,... I hear that lake is full of STUPID FISH.
Jerome
stidecave
Posted 1/17/2010 2:00 AM (#417809 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Then if musky are that stupid,the guys who caught them must be a lot more stupid
they spend more than lets say more than 4000$ for a fish that will bite on a cigar?
Why a small x spot can be everything for years and after that,you will caught only a few small one?why the big one have choose to MOVE away?
Like most of us know sometimes they will even smash a piece of jointed 2x4 on the surface,but those periods are more than rare
If you like tournaments i wish you best of luck whit your piece of 2x4
marc thorpe
Posted 1/17/2010 5:14 AM (#417810 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
one things FSF not considered is stocked fish versus naturally reproducing populations.
There is a distinct weariness between both , but even stocked fish can become more weary over time due to fishing pressure.
muskies are not super heroes,but have the ability to survive and avoid negative vibrations to survive
fish are not a stupid as we make me to be,its all about survival
for a fish to establish a home range year after year with stable enviromental factors and to change this home range when these same factors change takes a certain amount of thought process,not necessaraly like humans.
Prob is we relate thought process to our own but not to other living animal,because essentially we cant understand the thought process and how each animals uses it even.
It goes far beyond imprinting
A cigar must walk the dog pretty good,wonder if Cohebas or Montecristos are better
stidecave
Posted 1/17/2010 5:47 AM (#417812 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
none of them
the one and only davidoff
VERY versatile,can also be used as a tube or a undertaker
Edited by stidecave 1/17/2010 5:49 AM
Zoom - | Zoom 100% | Zoom + | Expand / Contract | Open New window
Posted 1/17/2010 9:34 AM (#417837 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Dom,
Why might a small spot be very good and then only small fish or nothing? I'd bet at about 80% probability that whatever was holding those fish there changed.
I'd caution we don't anthropomorphise too much. Marc said we can't understand how a muskie thinks, and I agree, because by our standards, they don't.
A simple example we use to defend our sport all the time against PETA. Since Muskies have no frontal lobes, and operate basically off brain stem, it's known they do not 'feel pain'. What does that mean, exactly? It's proven they will react to discomfort, but so will an amoeba. Since the frontal lobes process information so a reaction to pain can be categorized, 'remembered', and avoided in the future that obviously isn't what's happening. So I submit that if we use the presumption fish do not feel pain because they do not process the information from the stimulus, then we need to remain consistent in our assumptions as to how OTHER information form OTHER events might be processed.
Posted 1/17/2010 10:10 AM (#417844 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
My point exactly, Mike.
If we, as anglers, assume the fish are able to process and store information of the sort allowing for long term intelligent avoidance of motor sounds, lures, and all the other assumptions out there, then we may be seriously overthinking things; and that leads to the sort of thinking that allowed the telemetry 'study' data from the Chip to be so widely accepted even though it was, in essence, pure poo.
I'm not saying a fish cannot be conditioned as it is obvious fish can, but it's very important for us to understand what that actually means and how 'conditioning' occurs, and how the process differs in fish and higher vertebrates. An example of a fish in a clear water tank beating against the glass, and eventually stopping was offered. Try this; take a fish out of extremely turbid water, and put it in very clear water. That fish will very likely not ever contact the tank glass at a faster pacer than a tiny bump. Take a fish from clear water and place it in an aquarium, and it has tank lip big time, sometimes permanently. Why?
I also am not saying I think every individual Muskie will behave exactly the same.
The movement to convince us all that fish are sentient and sensitive, emotionally capable and even cuddly animals stems from PETA, and the few supporting papers published originate from the UK.
Sometimes I wish fish possess at least the intelligence as a Whitetail, that might make the 'chase' a truly inspiring challenge.
Posted 1/17/2010 6:54 PM (#417896 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 540
I seem to have alot of follows from big big fish that have obvouisly been around for awhile and as soon as they follow up to the boat I can see them seeing me at the same time or the boat or maybe both, they will then almost every time turn fairly quickly not quite as fast as they followed and swim away down deeper at a angle paralleling the boat, don't get me wrong I will try to L-turn and fugure 8 and everything to try and trigger a strike but the fish obvouisly seen stuff it din't like and feel safe around! any tips on this or comments would be appreciated!
Posted 1/17/2010 8:12 PM (#417916 - in reply to #417896) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 2361
leech lake strain - 1/17/2010 6:54 PM
I seem to have alot of follows from big big fish that have obvouisly been around for awhile and as soon as they follow up to the boat I can see them seeing me at the same time or the boat or maybe both, they will then almost every time turn fairly quickly not quite as fast as they followed and swim away down deeper at a angle paralleling the boat, don't get me wrong I will try to L-turn and fugure 8 and everything to try and trigger a strike but the fish obvouisly seen stuff it din't like and feel safe around! any tips on this or comments would be appreciated!
Get Steve to explain to you again, why they should not only NOT do that, but that they are too stupid to have that reaction, and then maybe you will start catching them.
Posted 1/17/2010 8:35 PM (#417922 - in reply to #417810) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 2361
marc thorpe - 1/17/2010 5:14 AM
one things FSF not considered is stocked fish versus naturally reproducing populations.
There is a distinct weariness between both , but even stocked fish can become more weary over time due to fishing pressure.
muskies are not super heroes,but have the ability to survive and avoid negative vibrations to survive
fish are not a stupid as we make me to be,its all about survival
for a fish to establish a home range year after year with stable enviromental factors and to change this home range when these same factors change takes a certain amount of thought process,not necessaraly like humans.
Prob is we relate thought process to our own but not to other living animal,because essentially we cant understand the thought process and how each animals uses it even.
It goes far beyond imprinting
A cigar must walk the dog pretty good,wonder if Cohebas or Montecristos are better :)
Actually stocked fish out of brood stock taken from lakes where fishing has removed the biggest, most aggressive fish in the natural population, potentially could be more wary than native fish in a less pressured(by selection)population, but I have no idea what the stocking process, and growing up in ponds without predators, fosters. I think it creates an interesting question, but I don't have the first thought as to what the answer might be.
I have followed some of your thinking in your writing, and you have put forth one real interesting observation that I chewed on a long time before it hit me that you probably had nailed it, whether the cause and effect was correctly linked or not.
And here, you have thrown a couple of interesting thoughts in, one I don't agree with, that the fish uses a certain amount of thought process to change his home base, post environmental changes, and one that I do agree with, we don't understand thought process as it might apply to a fish. It simply cannot all be hardwired.
guest
Posted 1/17/2010 9:54 PM (#417933 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Awesome discussion. I love this quote:
"In a nutshell, the first time the fish is exposed to the footprint, all things considered, the strongest response. Hence, a totally new and well designed footprint will be 'hot' UNTIL THERE ARE SO MANY OF THAT PARTICULAR FOOTPRINT PRESENTED THE THING BECOMES PART OF THE LANDSCAPE, SO TO SPEAK....at which time one needs to look at conditions and location RE: the likelihood of a sought after response."
I think this relates potentially to the heavily pressured waters of MN especially maybe Vermilion for example. Although there's no doubt, double 10s still work on Vermilion, there's also no doubt they don't have the same effect they did 5 years ago. However, when it's the only lure 90 percent of muskie fisherman will throw nearly 100 percent of the time, 24 hours a day, whether it's the best presentation for a particular situation or not...When there is 20 cowgirls stuck in every rock-pile potentially for them to stare at forever more...there is no doubt that the double cowgirl and other similar bucktails have probably in the muskies eyes become just as much part of their landscape as navigational buoys marking rock-piles to loons swimming underwater. Neither of which for the most part are food to a muskie. At a certain point, you would think a muskie would begin to simply ignore these baits to an extent. Regardless of whether or not a muskie has been hooked or caught on double tens, the more they are thrown the more they will be ignored according to the quote. Really, there is NEVER a time that a double ten bucktail will ever create a positive experience for a musky. ONLY negative or neutral.
Posted 1/17/2010 9:59 PM (#417935 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Actually, FSF, as you know there are many, many, many possibilities why the fish lls is referring to are following and turning off at the boat. I bet you already know quite a few of them, and do your best to avoid them.
Sometimes it's just not in the cards a fish will hit, sometimes it is, and the variables that effect the 'process' number so high I'm guessing even the stoic FSF doesn't know ALL of them.
But that, of course, IS just a guess. He's pretty observant.
Seriously, no one knows exactly why at any one time any one fish hits or doesn't. That said, if the stimulus elicits a response that is not quite high enough to get the fish to eat (there in lies all those nasty variables) one gets a follow. Add the Figure 8 and a series of stimuli including crossing the stereoscopic vision field of the Muskie (a sight feeding trigger) as many as 4 times if executed well, and maybe one gets a hit, maybe not.
The next day the same fish just might eat the first lure it sees.
Guest
Posted 1/17/2010 10:18 PM (#417936 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
A long post here, but worth the read. This same question has been debated on the Pro Bass tours for years---and a fish is basically a fish.
There are certainly trends on the bass tours that would seem to suggest that. For example, spinnerbaits – once a dominant presentation for top pros – seem to be a forgotten bait now. Small worms, swimbaits, frogs and other newer trends have replaced it. But no examination of tour results is truly scientific, since too many variables factor in, such as venues and seasons.
There has been significant scientific research done on the subject, though. Dr. Keith Jones, who works in the research department of Pure Fishing and is widely regarded as one of the world's foremost bass experts, writes about that research in his book Knowing Bass: The Scientific Approach To Catching More Fish.
According to Jones, bass "learn" in several different ways. The four main methods of learning are:
Associative Learning – Think of this as trial-and-error learning. The fact that bass are capable of associative learning, Dr. Jones writes, is proven by laboratory experiments "where the animal is taught to link two types of stimuli, such as a certain-colored light with an ensuing electric shock. Bass readily learn these associations, both in the lab and in the field, although not as fast as some other species."
Habituation – This is the type of learning through which bass gradually become less sensitive to particular stimulations. Examples would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.
Spatial – Bass learn to move around their environments, recognize landmarks or objects and stake out home territories. Their ability to do so comes through spatial learning. In fact, according to Dr. Jones, bass in the laboratory have been able to find their way through an underwater maze to reach a desired point.
Prey Images – The fourth type of bass learning that Dr. Jones describes is the ability to develop and recognize prey images. Bass therefore can recognize a shad or crawfish as prey. "Given enough positive experience with a certain prey type, a bass will gradually come to actively seek out that specific prey," he writes. "Prey species, for their part, often counter the bass's efforts by changing their signature stimuli, often through the use of camouflage."
Noteworthy too is Dr. Jones' observation that while bass are capable of these different types of learning, individuals learn at different rates. He cites a 4-year study in Illinois that documented recapture rates of largemouth bass. The average bass was caught twice each season, but some bass were caught up to 16 times in a single season.
"Within every population of bass, some individuals learn to renounce lures very quickly, whereas others never make the mental connection between lures and trauma," Dr. Jones writes. "So much individual variation in learning rates exists that at one time, Texas Parks & Wildlife explored the potential of developing a genetic race of dumb bass."
Bass Memory For Lures
What's especially interesting about Dr. Jones' discussion of bass learning is a study conducted at Pure Fishing that tested bass memory for lures. The results suggest that bass "remember" lures for quite a long time.
In the study, bass were allowed to freely strike a minnow lure for a 5-minute test period. In the initial exposure, most strikes came in the first 1 to 3 minutes. By the end of the 5-minute period, the bass had learned to ignore the lure "since it provided no positive food reward."
The bass were then divided into two groups and held separately, with no additional testing, for different lengths of time.
After 2 weeks, the bass in one group were reexposed to the same minnow lure, again for 5 minutes. The response was one-tenth of what it was in the initial exposure, "indicating that the bass had retained a strong negative memory of the bait during the 2-week interval."
Holding bass for an even longer period yielded similar results. After 2 months, the second group of bass still tested well below the original response level.
Dr. Jones concludes his discussion of the memory study by writing: "The results show that under some circumstances, bass can remember lures for at least up to 3 months and perhaps much, much longer. Who knows? If the experience is bad enough, they might never forget."
What's it all mean for the bass angler? While there are no hard and fast rules in fishing, the research certainly seems to suggest that anglers should try different lures in the same areas, especially areas they fish regularly or that are heavily pressured.
Posted 1/17/2010 10:44 PM (#417941 - in reply to #417935) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion
I've had more action on V last yr. using, Plastics, Creepers,Weagles, Phantoms, Reefhogs, Twich Baits, ect. than DCG's
So ya, I think the muskies get somewhat tired of seeing the same lure most of the time..... That said, I still believe when they get hungry, they will still pound anything that looks like food in the water.
Sorry, but some of you guys give muskies to much credit for being able to remember negitive things.
I don't buy into that. Fish are just flat out STUPID ! When they get hungry, they eat.... Simple. They also move to where the food goes..... Active fish, that is.
I know this,...Muskies were alot easer to catch 4-6 yrs. ago on V than they were the last 2 yrs. Why ? There sure was alot more Bait fish the last few yrs., but there was also a lot more people fishing for them too. ........ I'd bet that 200-300 fifty inchers were cought and released on V last season,..... How many times were those fish caught before they reached 50"? A lot.
Stupid Fish........has made us all look like fools from time to time.
Posted 1/17/2010 11:12 PM (#417942 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Much of the above reinforces what's been said, and importantly one has to apply the observations to where one fishes, which is for most of us not even close to a controlled environment. Apply each observation to your understanding of the term 'conditioning', and keep in mind (like the exposure even during a 5 minute period) of the stimulus to the fish in a controlled environment is MANY times higher than in the natural environment. The likely hood any muskie would be exposed to striking a bucktail, say, enough to reject it out of hand because of lack of food value is tiny. Vary the footprint of that minnow bait during that 5 minute exposure, and the 'learning curve' changes dramatically.
Note there is no mention in this work of avoidance to a lure because of capture. I've read a couple papers on that, I'l see if I can locate them.
It's established that all living creatures will 'learn' to avoid items they find to have no food value; that's part and parcel of Marc's 'survival' learning concept. It seems the more intelligent the critter, however, the more items that have little or no food value and are actually BAD for the critter show up regularly on the menu.
Habituation is the technical term for what I was referring to as a lure becomes part of the environment, and is part of fish behavior. Same thing for avoiding a boat and motor...the fish (say, on Minnetonka, for example) would literally wear themselves out if they really did that. Instead, boats and motors become part of the daily background noise the fish MUST ignore if for no other reason than to conserve energy which would otherwise be wasted. Think about it, why would propwash trolling EVER work if...
I've read most of the work from Pure Fishing, and the data and most of the conclusions reinforce my beliefs when applied to the wild.
And IMHO Jerome has it right.
I'm creating a clip from yesterday and today showing the response of several Northern Pike to a Lindy Slick Jig tipped with a golden shiner. It's interesting...to say the least. I guarantee NONE of those Pike had ever seen a Slick Jig and all had seen golden shiners in the wild...thousands of them. One thing for certain, no golden shiner behaves a bit like the Slick Jig tipped presentation does. Should make them suspicious...:)
Last year, we saw huge schools of Goldens displaying shoaling behavior on several of our favorite Pike waters. The local Pike pretty much ignored them, and shot right over to our jig presentations and smacked 'em. Same with Tip Up minnows,also golden shiners, but doing something very very different. Sometimes they'd sit back and watch the tip up for a long time before committing, sometimes they'd blast in and eat the shiner. At all times, the water around us was alive with goldens. We observe hundreds of Pike a winter, and have never seen one even seem to be interested in the local forage, allowing that the forage vacates a few feet as soon as a Pike shows up. Point is, the Pike never seem to give chase even though some of the local forage seem to offer easy targets.
Posted 1/18/2010 12:02 AM (#417945 - in reply to #417942) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Here you go:
Marc Thorpe
Posted 1/18/2010 5:26 AM (#417947 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Steve interesting thought but,you cannot compare pike behavior to muskies simply due to hierarchy and apex behavioral differences.
You are correct in my survival thoughts,its instinctual in all living animals
H2O,you say it yourself,Cowgirls and the bite has changed on big V,the negative response has allot to do with fishing pressure, as boating traffic has increased the fish have become accustomed to it but the biggest negative stimuli remains particular vibrations thus creating avoidance to certain vibrations while others stimulate interest whether feeding or territorial behavior,its anyone's guess.
The same can be said about a once very productive short line presentation which Lake St Clair introduced to the world,now the use of planner boards are essential to maintaining the same quality fishing experience,why we will probably never know but as the bass study shows,some form of avoidance does occur and relating certain vibrations in association to boating presence has definitely changed their willingness to bite close to the boat,its not a water clarity thing.Fish have no fear of boats when in an active feeding mood,if anything clarity aids because it offers a better feeding precision.
There is a distinct feeding behavior between fish that feed in clear water versus stained water from my observations,mainly between the use of their lateral line and eyesight.
FSF,stocked fish are imprinted with being fed artificially at surface with pellets or such, then transitioned and weened off to feed on minnows but this initial imprint remains in a feeding behavior till a negative stimuli is reached ,generally associated with vibration or simple survival factors which is the ultimate determining factor.
Wild fish are not accustomed to un-natural vibrations within their environment.Initial response is positive but with a learned time frame they learn much more quickly avoidance to un-natural vibrations.
Yes FSF,my evolution in fishing is more of an observation process now than one of catching them ,the behavioral tendencies from particular individuals or fish is a fascination now,its not just fish its all animals.
My thoughts are not directed on a mass general population but more so on dominant individuals. I do agree under the right conditions most fish can and will commit the very same mistake it once made but dominant fish do show signs of significant avoidance whether it relates to vibration or location.
One of the biggest negative stimuli is the removing of the fish from water,from studies I have read, the increased stressed levels occur when the fish is removed for picture taking process.
I do suspect that water released fish incur less of a negative stimuli thus diminishing a negative response to fishing presence and certain vibrations.
Like I mentioned previously,certain high frequency vibrations are simulated negatively much faster than lower frequency vibrations.
Like one other poster mentioned,if everyone is throwing a particular lure,throw something else,it stand to reason more negative stimuli will occur from this highly used vibration.
Its all a matter of survival,a thought process we as humans cannot trully understand but merely speculate
interesting thoughts by all and much to be considered
Posted 1/18/2010 10:32 AM (#417970 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN
So, explain to me why the largest Muskie I have ever seen will only show interest in one type of lure and only one color? By big, I estimate her to be between 56 and 58 inches and could weigh close to 60 lbs in the fall. She simply dwarfs the largest fish I have caught which is by my login name.
I almost had her in the net once and had her follow to the boat many other times. But only on one blade/color pattern. She will look at single blades or double blades of the same type, but the color of those blades and hair has to be one certain color combination. I cannot get her to show interest in anything different like a big plastic bait or a large bucktail even of a similar color pattern. I've tried those when I knew she was there and nothing. Put on the same old lure and here she would come again. I've had her follow to the boat as many as three times in one day too.
What I don't understand is why she likes that one lure type and color so much and ignores everything else. The only thing I can come up with is the lure, as she sees it or I present it, is at least somewhat similar to the baitfish she prefers and is different enough from most other lures being thrown out there. So, it has a positive aspect and lacks many of the negatives.
All I know for sure is I'm going to stick with that lure/color combination on that lake. We catch plenty of other fish on those lures too and it sure is a rush when she suddenly shows up at boatside. Only problem is my hands usually shake for at least ten minutes afterwards....
Posted 1/18/2010 11:03 AM (#417976 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Sounds like a bucktail or similar lure that gets her interest, and it seems others that are similar but don't. I'd say the footprint of that lure trips her into varied levels of activity and she offers what you describe as different levels of response to the stimulus.
I'd venture it's doubtful the lure looks like or behaves like any forage she's used to, the footprint of a lure is dramatically different than that of any baitfish. keep in mind the Muskie feeds using lateral line and sight, and is 'capable' of survival if either is disabled. The signature from a Cisco, even visuals, is completely different than the real thing, not to mention our feeble attempts to recreate natures actual colors using paints and decals that are great above water, yet many times not so convincing under as a result of the mixing of colors we do to get a shade pleasing to our eyes. A different world down there, what with the prism effect of water and the conductivity of pressure waves/VS sound as we know it up here in thin air.
IMO, we need to keep perspective on the negative/positive 'experience' ideas we are discussing. In order for that fish to maintain avoidance behavior to all your other lures, she would have had to have had several encounters with each size, color, and presentation of all the other lures you have tried, which is very doubtful. You mentioned she actually has had multiple experiences including a hook-up on the lure she reacts well to; if some of the concepts widely held out there were working in this case, she SHOULD be avoiding that lure It's more likely your other baits are not eliciting a strong enough response to get her to follow or eat. If we knew why that happens with each individual fish, it'd be allot easier.
marc thorpe
Posted 1/18/2010 11:41 AM (#417981 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Herb,I have seen this myself also
I suspect curiosity and inquisitiveness with some relation to the color,possibly as steve suggest the particular vibration in correlation with the color
I'd try other lures with similar profil but most important same color pattern,it that fails
She has a crush
Steve I am not talking about striking methods,its behavioral difference between two distinct different species and apex predators.
Pike feeding behaviors are more aggressive in nature due to competitiveness in relation to abundance which differs from muskellunge abundance which in turn effect the behavioral difference between both species.
In most predators,the abundance of most particular predators can increase the amount of what a predator preys on and diversify or diminish and lead to selection of prey in another predator,depending on the hierarchy of both predators within the same environment.
Posted 1/18/2010 2:54 PM (#418008 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Steve, Marc,
I see your points. The thing about this fish is she hangs out in an area which gets a lot of fishing pressure from people throwing a lot of big plastics and big bucktails. On weekends she often see a steady stream of Cowgirls and Magnum or pounder sized Bulldawgs. She tends to hang out in a couple of very popular spots. I have seen two and even three boats camp over her and noone got her to move. Then, after those boats moved on, I got her to come up to the boat again. I saw her there before and after the other boats. The only difference seems to be the difference in lure or how the lures are being presented. My lure is smaller than the other lures, a different type, and almost always a different color.
I have tried many other color patterns in the same lure type and many other lures in the same color pattern and none of them move her. All I know for sure is she seems to like one particular size and color in either single or double blades. I can't recall ever seeing a fish being so particular before.
Sure wish I knew why she does what she does - but its fun anyway.
Posted 1/18/2010 2:55 PM (#418009 - in reply to #417809) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 8824
stidecave - 1/17/2010 2:00 AM
Then if musky are that stupid,the guys who caught them must be a lot more stupid
they spend more than lets say more than 4000$ for a fish that will bite on a cigar?
Why a small x spot can be everything for years and after that,you will caught only a few small one?why the big one have choose to MOVE away?
If they are biting year after on the same ''versatile'' lure why the **** guys are always bring more than 200 baits in the boat?
Like most of us know sometimes they will even smash a piece of jointed 2x4 on the surface,but those periods are more than rare
If you like tournaments i wish you best of luck whit your piece of 2x4
1. Muskie lures catch way more fisherman than fish. Everyone knows this.
2. Moved away is one possibility. Died is another. Some spots can be good year after year after year, and then all of a sudden? Dead sea... I've always figured that maybe it was something to do with weed growth difference from one year to the next, changing baitfish patterns, or possibly even changes to an adjacent spot that they were using as well.
3. Why guys bring 200 baits? It's silly to HAVE 200 lures. It's even MORE silly to have 200 lures and not bring them with you when you go fishing!
Muskie fishing is as complicated as you want it to be. I'll believe that muskies are intelligent as people make them out to be when Suicks and Mepps Muskie Killer's stop working.
Posted 1/19/2010 8:38 AM (#418112 - in reply to #417366) Subject: RE: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 321
Location: Glen Ellyn Il
I have read just about all the response on this thread, and all are very interesting.
I made an observation on my pond where I live for about 25 years. For over 10 years I have been trying to figure out a way to fool some of the bass that are in the pond. There are no muskie in my pond. I cannot say that both bass and muskie think the same but they are fish. There are about two dozen bass and lots of bluegills. Both the bass and the bluegills are natural reproducing. The larger bass are about 18.5 inches. The pond has an aeriator and the pump is held in place with a steel cable, ther is also an 18 inch drain tile from all the 74 homes and an overflow drain withe a steel crate at the north end of the pond.
About 10 years ago I went down to the pond with a spinning rod and a rubber worm and on my first cast to my surprise I caught my first bass about 17 inches, for the next two days I caught bass almost on every cast. After the initial two days I could not get another bite, I switched to different types of bait and I had some success, but nothing like the first two days. The next several season, around the same time July, August tried the rubber worm, again nothing. I decided to catch a small bluegill and try that to my surprise again as soon that I had the bluegill on, a bass attacked the bluegill. I caught many bass again, and you guessed it, that also stopped. I would put the bluegill on a bobber where I could see it, the bass would go by it they would touch it, bumb it, chase it in to the shore, but would not eat it.
When I did get one desperate enough to take a bluegill, they would swim in the cable, and wrap the line in the cable, if you tried to turn it around, they would drop the bait. I had bass where would swim inside th 18 inch tile trying to get away.
I met my neighbour, the guy that actually planted the bass in the pond for his grand kids, he told me that he stopped fishing with artificial because he could not catch the bass any more. When I started catching bass he allready stopped fishing for four or five years, that is the reason I was able to catch bass for several days. In conclusion they do not have a lasting memory.
This summer I was checking a new real with a DCG and a big bass nailed it righ 3 feet from shore
Most likely because big bait, also I have not tried artificial for many years
Posted 1/19/2010 9:18 AM (#418114 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 97
Location: Pickering, ON
Muskies are stupid. After all, they are just fish and their brains are tiny. Giving them too much credit will result in one thing - they'll beat you everytime (in truth, it will be you beating yourself).
That being said, they can become conditioned. I think it is open for debate as to how long it takes them to "forget" or become "deconditioned". Where heavily pressured (i.e. they see the same stuff a few times a week), conditioning will become stronger and it will take longer (possibly over winter) for them to dumb up again. 100 double 10s buzzing overhead on weekends and 30-40 during weekdays will generate a pretty strong conditioning.
Where not heavily pressured, I would submit that you could potentially fool the same stupid fish with the exact same thing every week, or every couple of weeks at most. Two or three double 10s going by once a week isn't likely to generate conditioning negative to fishing.
As I see it there are 2 smart solutions:
1. Fish less pressured water; the obvious but maybe not always easy option.
2. Fish for the fish other people aren't fishing for. Along with the ability to trigger follows, this is the thing I see which separates the best Musky fisherfolk from the pack. They get out and find their own spots, secondary spots, etc.; the spots on which there are fish (and usually bigger ones) that aren't conditioned.
Posted 1/19/2010 10:17 AM (#418121 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN
I agree with 1 and 2, but I think there are a few more.
3. Use a different presentation. Could be a different lure, different sized lure, or a similar lure presented differently than what the typical lures are. Sometimes just dressing up a lure with a little twister tail can make all the difference.
4. Fish at different times when there are typically few fishermen on the water. This could be very early before sunrise, in the middle of the night, or even in the middle of the day.
I have had several multiple fish outings the last few years when I didn't get on the water until close to noon. On more than one outing like that, other boats were pulling off and said they had little action. I noticed the lures on their rods, went to something else, and then had good luck. Why? Maybe because I had a different presentation. And maybe because the fish were conditioned to being more cautious early in the day when there were typically more fishermen and not so cautious in the afternoon when there were typically far fewer fishermen.
I have fished heavily pressured waters for many years and have learned a few things. The one thing that has been consistent is if one does what everyone else is doing, one will usually have the same success rate as everyone else. And that usually is not so great.
Posted 1/20/2010 4:26 PM (#418408 - in reply to #417366) Subject: Re: How good IS a Muskie's memory?
Posts: 83
I'd say, after many years of diving with them, that Muskie and smallmouth bass have a little more going on than many other fish. Now, I can't bring myself to say that any fish that tries to eat painted chunks of plastic and metal is smart, however!
I've seen some things that lead me to believe there is a bit of a thought process. I've just seen a little more than I can attribute to instinct. there is certainly some degree of memory as well.
A little songbird doesn't have much of a brain. When I let my cat out, they take flight. They learn to avoid food that sickens them. They build nests. They are clever enough to realize they have an edge against a deadly enemy in the hawk, and use their in flight manuverability in ariel combat to drive their foe away. Give a musky at least this much credit.
How good IS a Muskie's memory?
and had her follow to the boat many other times. But only on one blade/color pattern. She will look at single blades or double blades of the same type, but the color of those blades and hair has to be one certain color combination. I cannot get her to show interest in anything different like a big plastic bait or a large bucktail even of a similar color pattern. I've tried those when I knew she was there and nothing. Put on the same old lure and here she would come again. I've had her follow to the boat as many as three times in one day too.