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Posts: 15
| Been reading the forums for quite some time, and finally decided to join the ranks.
There was a thread that was pulled on here earlier today that caught my interest. It was about some guide conflicts. I know the guide accused, and he is a great guide, fisherman, and guy. The post honestly raises some interesting questions.
I'll try to pose this as a non-argumentative topic, however it may turn that way once the internet brawlers take hold.
There has always been some localism in fishing. And since the sport is growing by leaps and bounds, there is definitely going to be some tension when fisherman and guides collide. Maybe jokes, maybe fights, who knows but it's bound to happen.
I've heard of pranks, vandalism, fights, and even guns being drawn to ward off foreign guides.
As a Wisconsin turned Minnesotan, I've noticed the guides are blossoming like Asian beetles. Many of which have out of state tags on their rigs. So I guess the question is, do you hire an out of stater or a local guide and why? Should there be a fee for out of towner guides to work in another state? And should the non-local guides show respect the local guides? And if so, how?
It is obvious, MN has worked hard to maintain a quality fishery over the last several decades, and the inconsideration from guides with no specific ties to an area may do nothing but harm it I fear.
These are obviously some of the thoughts that popped into my head when looking at some related posts. Do you all feel the same or not?
Hope I'm not crossing any forum guidelines, Like I said, I'm new to posting.
Joe Albrecht | |
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| This has come as a topic in the barber shop at times. I guess I really don't mind if someone from another state guides here. He has bought a lic. He has bought a guide lic. so he meets the requirements. Those that I know that guide in states other then home state bring clients with them. These clients I donot believe would be booking with a local. How many guides in northern wisc. are not locals? Probably a whole lot. I don't see why anyone would get all worked up about this.
Everybody in the communities they spend time in welcome the money they leave behind. I think to bash them yet welcome them for the cash is.......oh well you get the picture.
Pfeiff
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Posts: 123
| I think that it may be different today than in the past because the catch and release ethic is now so popular among muskie fishermen. Just a few years ago it was well known that some guides were taking some huge fish from a small Minnesota lake. Due to the efforts of some Muskies Inc. members working with the DNR that lake became Minnesota's first catch & release only fishery. I haven't really heard of any gripes with guides there since.
Some of these lakes in Minnesota are getting hammered by guides, but they still seem to be putting out good numbers of fish. I haven't seen one instance of documented proof that a guide has harmed any fishery. At worst it seems that they've inconvenienced some locals by the added pressure, and by fishing "their" spots.
I'm not sure if out of state guides are required to do anything different than by a license, such as reporting that income to the state they came to guide in and whatnot, but as long as they're operating within the law I don't see how anyone can find fault with them or thing they should be required to pay anything extra. Unless the law was changed, that wouldn't be fair to them. Just my opinion. | |
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| In my opinion there are two tops of guides in Minnesota. First, those who are residents, pay Minnesota taxes, and those who take great care and pride in the waters they fish. The second group is the one who drive me crazy. Some of them are out of state and pay no Minnesota taxes, jump from lake to lake to where the hot bite is, and have less care about the water they fish on. To me the second group is like the aliens on the independence day movie. A good friend of mine is a local guide and cares a ton for the local waters. When a client calls him wanting to fish another area he will kindly say those are not my water and refers him elsewhere. The second group goes where ever often in a group and burns the bite then will go elsewhere. First they are on Mille lacs, that bite slows and they run to the next hot lake untill that slows and on and on. Some of these guides have big names but I am not sure they are that good of fisherman. Anyone can camp on hot bites. Once the bite is burned onward they go. Now if they paid taxes in Minnesota, are licensed, and show up and support stocking meetings and do all they can to leave the resource better than it was when they came......well then that would be a different story, but sadly they are not that way. No wonder the local guides are ticked and the local fishermen despise them. IMO they are bad for the resource that many worked so hard to build and establish. | |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | Not gonna mention the guides name,but I had a guide tell me who doesn`t live in minn but guides there tell me he had a couple guys apprroach him at the chi muskie show about 6-7 yrs ago and give him crap for guiding in minn.They told him to stay in his own state and leave minn alone,this was before minn started getting hammered like it is now.I thought that was bull because if you want to be successful in guiding you have to have clients to take out fishing,if an out of state guide is getting clients he must be doing something right. | |
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Posts: 135
| Well let's hope that the government doesn't get involved in it, by Government I mean IRS or Dept of revenue. See, I'm a photographer and I travel all over the US shooting for commercial/advertising clients. Much of my work is done outside of my home state. Last year, I had to file taxes from the City of Los Angeles, the state of California, the state of Minnesota, New York (city and State), Florida and the state of Illinois in addition to the state of Indiana because the Depts of Revenue in each state is being very pro active in finding individuals who come to their state to make income but file no taxes. Kind of like NFL and NBA players who have to pay taxes for every state and city that they played in (what a nightmare!).
Guides, just hope that the taxing bodies don't take notice or you will be paying taxes to a state in which you do not live. They're trying to close every loophole that they can, and this is a big one. Doesn't matter if they sent you a check to your Wisconsin home or if you took cash on the water in MN, they want a piece of it if you earned it in MN, (or CA, FL, NY, IL, whatever) | |
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Posts: 720
| I can't understand why people get threatened physical violence for simply trying to make a living. It's fishing folks. This is not a matter of life or death. Yes the locals have a right to question the tax implications. But the threats of violence is way out of line. The act of vandilism is way out of line. But at some point eithier one of the locals or guides is going to have their bluff called and somebody is going to get hurt. Not cool at all. | |
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| I have trouble with a private business destroying a public resource. I do not believe MN requires a guide license so there is no restitution being paid by the guides to reinforce the resource they are profiting off of. When 3-5 well known guides decend on a 3,000 acre lake like a bunch of cormorants for several weeks during a peak bite you cannot tell me there is not some delayed mortaility going on. Minimally the sudden impact of their back to back 15 hour days on a little 3,000 acre lake has to be changing fish behavior and therefore disturbing the balace of the lake. We're not talking walleye's here, this is a low density fish. They ARE making an impact! I would like to see some kind of guide fee instituted with the funds dedicated to stocking the lakes they fish. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Disturbing the balance of the lake? | |
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Posts: 311
Location: Ontario | The taxes/putting money directly into a fishery in a state you live in is the only part of this debate with any merit at all if you ask me. The rest is simply local fishermen and guides not liking out of state guides pounding their spots. I agree with casting55...a guy who lives somewhere else travels to a lake out of his home state and is able to catch enough fish to warrant charging people to fish with him and people are getting upset? If you ask me, the guy deserves at least a little credit. He has found out how to do well on a lake that might be quite far away from his 'home base.' Points about not paying into local stocking, lake associations, federal taxes etc are all well-taken, though. If a guy is making a living out there, he should be putting back some of that money along with the locals. Were I a travelling guide, this'd be the first thing I want to do..get involved locally and try to support a fishery that I enjoy no matter what state its in. If there are guides out there running and gunning all over the place without consideration for this, I think its a business mistake on their part. Image-wise (as noted by many above) as well as sustainability-wise (ie: support a lake that is supporting you!) | |
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Posts: 3158
| not a "bash" just passing on a fact,,,not one outstate guide showed up at the Gull lake public input meeting for stocking muskie,,held in Brainard central part of the state easy access from Mile Lacs and northern Minn months of notice given about it,,Its too bad their input about how impressive the Minn muskie fisherie is that our DNR has created and the fact that they were willing to relocate here would have been powerfull testimony but sadly none showed up.
Minnesota is divided into 4 fisherie management zones,,if you had guides apply for guide licenses by "zone' you would eliminate the piling into 'hot bite' overcrowding factor | |
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| so let me get this straight, a minnesota guide can jump from lake to lake, fishing the "hot bites" but if somebody from out of state does it, then it is wrong. I have also read where it is wrong to have out of state guides stay on one lake. So which one is it??? Why don't these northern guides from Wisconsin and Minnesota head south for the spring and guide in Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana?
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Posts: 3158
| NO,,,all guides apply by zone,Resident and non resident,,,you have to apply for a turkey license by zone to avoid crowding and you have to apply for a deer license by zone,,why not do the same for guiding??? | |
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Posts: 15
| I think one of the major concerns is the interest in the lakes well being. Guides who live in the area they guide in may belong to chambers, associations, musky clubs, etc. that care for those waters. Also they may earn their pay from only those lakes. Since yesterdays post I have made some non assuming / anonymous calls this morning to 2 well known local guides and two well known visiting guides looking for possible stocking donations for specific lakes. Only one of each answered.
The local guide answered with a bunch of questions about what the money will go to? what organization am I from? and
exactly what lakes was I calling about? He was a bit stand offish but seemed willing to get involved. I
told him this was just a contact call and we would get back to him later about the actual donation
Maybe I wasn't a good enough actor since he seemed skeptical of my call.
The visiting guide told me he didn't live in this state. When I asked if he would donate since he guided here, he said he was busy and didn't have time for this. and politely hung up on me with a rushed Goodbye.
Maybe he was super busy, but he dropped it to answer? And the TV in the background sounded like he wasn't that busy and just didn't want any part of this. Who knows?
This little experiment may have been falsely intrusive, and maybe I shouldnt have done it,, but for some reason I want to know the general opinion on this. Are the people making money from the lakes actually doing something to improve them?
And the damage guides do on lakes can be pretty severe. Don't you think Mille Lac, Leech, and other places where the fish are now slow to bite have felt the abuse from guides on the same spots day in day out catching the same fish over and over? The fact that on some lakes fish mainly bit only after dark where they used to bite through out the day is an obvious sign of pressure. The only people who really have the advantage of fishing every day, and putting that type of pressure on the fish are the guides. Yet many of them could care less. They just move on to the next lake to demolish.
Edited by Joe musky 9/8/2009 9:57 AM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Hooker has a very good idea. Brad you should take the ball and run with this one. I think you'd get alot of support.
JS | |
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Posts: 148
Location: Northwest Wi. | I was born in Il. ,,Work in Mn.,,Live in Wi...Can I fish in Mn?? This is silly...Does fishing a MMTT in '02 make you a guide?? | |
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Posts: 15
| I just got a call from a very irritable out of state (southern) guide working in Minn. not sure how he got my number? He explained how my thought process on this is wrong, and the water in Minn. is public, therefore he can fish where ever when ever he wants, and shouldn't have to bow down to any local or give a penny to keep fishing it.
I told him that the "Public" stocked lakes he is fishing were built with "Private" funds from mostly local people. So he should respect that. He had some other choice words for me about TV and videos etc. and again I pretty much got hung up on.
I like hookers zone idea. What about a steep fee for guides in general. Has that ever happened in minnesota? Or licensing? That way alot of the part time fisherman want-to-be guides would fall off. And the serious guides would remain.
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | How many out of state guides are there guiding for muskies in Minnesota? This makes it sound like there must be hundreds of them to be wrecking all of this havoc. | |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | I find this whole 'my waters mentality' extremely silly. Some people in Minnesota are starting to sound like some people out East. That's pretty sad. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Joe musky/everyone,
We do not allow personal arguments and vendettas here, for obvious reasons. Creating both or either for dramatic purposes and posting it here won't keep this thread alive for long. Discuss the concepts of why a license, fee, or whatever should be applied, etc, but keep the names and direct references to what they 'supposedly' said out of this conversation.
I'd also suggest you contact the Minnesota DNR, get in touch with the fisheries folks managing muskies up there, and discuss what funding came from where to stock and manage the lakes up there for muskies, down to the penny if that suits; just in the interest of accuracy. | |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | MN hasn't licensed guides because of the argument presented from the resort owners had their kids guiding people as a part time summer job. There has been a lot of people outside the muskie world in MN that have been clamoring for a guide fee as well. This is especially the case in Brainard where there are guides bringing in limits of walleyes for 2-3 groups a day every day of the summer. Don't be surprised if there is legislation that gets presented this next legislative session.
I believe that guides should be licensed myself. In a perfect world it would mandate insurance and the fee would give back to the resource. This will be especially important as the DNR budget gets squeezed more and more over the next few years. | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | I would think that if your DNR budgets get squeezed over the next few years that it would be especially important to have lots of out of state revenue coming into Minnesota. Guides (generally) are brining in people and their $$$ from out of state. | |
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| The MN DNR has been contacted with the concerns about guides lake hopping.
I find it very funny that guides are suppose to be some of the best fishermen out there right but when a lake cools off or the fishing gets "tough" in their eyes they simply jump to another lake to find fish to catch.
Lakes can and do change with the guides coming. There are a few lakes that they guide on that the fishing pressure has increased as a direct result of them showing up. Fish have become harder to catch, are more boat shy and quite often you catch one thats jaw is mangled from being caught so many times.
The one point above that is probably the most eye opening is that not ONE out of state guide showed up any of the meetings to get more lakes stocked but we all know they will show up at the landing to profit off of the hard work done by others. Why didn't one show up? They use the public resource for private gain but how many guides really give back to the stocking of the lakes they fish? Are any out of state guides members of the local Muskies Inc chapters they guide on as a minimum?
It is very sad that some lakes use to be somewhat quiet and fishing was good, now there are days there are 4-5 guides that never use to fish the lake on it pounding it for 15 hour days, one day after another. You think that doesn't have some negative effect on the lake? who are you kidding? it does.
I like the idea of a zone permit, at a minimum a guide should be required to buy something like that for stocking the lakes they fish.
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | I'm fishing with an out of state guide next week and he better be on a hot bite! I am driving 9 hours and dropping over $1000 on the local economy which should trickle down into the tax cofers to pay for any fish I might catch. Would I be doing this to fish with a local guide? No. I have a cabin in Wisconsin and can go there anytime. I choose to fish with this particular guide because I know I can learn something new. Maybe I'll even be on his next video. | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | What percentage of in state guides showed up to this meeting? Where was this meeting held and what dates? I'll ask the question again, how many out of state guides are currently guiding for muskies in Minnesota or is this a vendetta against a small handful of people? | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Musky23, the money the out of state guides bring in never gets near the DNR. The people who buy a license from out of state more then likely would have done so anyway. The $$$ from those that would not have come because of it is counter balanced from them not utilizing the resource in the first place. | |
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Location: New Hope MN | Land of the Free..? | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | Treats, if that's the case (you're making it sound like out of state $$$ means nothing to your economy) then why is tourism such an important industry? I know I spend a lot of time fishing in Minnesota and spend a lot of $$$ there and may never had gone there if I wasn't brought there once upon a time by an out of state guide. | |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | musky23 - 9/8/2009 11:11 AM
What percentage of in state guides showed up to this meeting? Where was this meeting held and what dates?
I was at this meeting and I don't recall any guides being there, in state or out state. There may have been an in state guide, but I don't recall. The meeting was held in October of 2007 (maybe '06?) at the local college in Brainerd, MN. It was announced several months in advance.
Aaron | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Reread where the money goes. The VAST, VAST majority doesn't find it's way back to the resource. Also with what the MN muskie fishery has become I seriously doubt that most out of state people would not have come if it weren't for out of state guides.
dtaijo174, while this may be the land of the free, stocking muskies and getting new lakes and changing public opinion about muskies and muskie fishermen is not.
Edited by Muskie Treats 9/8/2009 11:22 AM
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| Out-of-state guides probably bring in some out of state anglers, who buy out of state licenses, that generate revenue for MN that you wouldn't ordinarily have. But in terms of the fishery? It doesn't matter where the guide is from. Even if all the guides from other states dried up and blew away, those out of state anglers will still come. Even if there WERE no guides, those anglers will still come. The cat's out of the bag. Everyone who fishes for muskies knows about MN. Guides or no guides, that's where people are going to go, because the fishing is better than WI, IL, IN, TN, KY, and all the other states where everyone fishing in MN is from. You can take it out on the guides who aren't originally from MN, but all the bickering in the world over whose fault it is isn't going to change the fact that everyone is, and always WILL BE fishing where the best fishing is. I'd rather have someone who may not have caught many muskies fishing with a guide from some other state than out there on their own.
When it comes down to it, it's ALL about money. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, whether it's a guide trying to make a living, the DNR trying to make money, the locals wanting the bars and resorts full, the truth is that big muskies = big money. And the people who stand to gain financially from big muskies WILL.
The other unfortunate truth that nobody seems to want to admit is that all the argument surrounding this issue boils down to the fact that many of muskie anglers in MN just simply don't want people from other states fishing on "their" lakes and catching all of "their" fish. That's an undesratandable position. But why won't anyone just come out and admit it? If it's all about too many people fishing, and being concerned for the well being of the fisheries, than why not go through the proper channels? Why not get tighter regulations passed, get more lakes stocked, increase fees for out of state licenses? Why take it out on the out of state guides? They're just doing what any guide with a half ounce of #*#* between his ears would do, and fishing where the fishing is good, because if they don't someone else will. Customers want to catch big muskies, and they are going to go wherever they need to go in order to do that. So whay spend your summer fishing muskies in IN, in 85 degree water, two days a week, for a handful of 40" fish, when you could go to MN and guide full time, catch big muskies for your clients, and actually be able to EAT at the end of the week? | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | Aaron, thanks for your response.
Mike | |
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| its like the plague in west central MN they just keep coming. eventually will destroy the lakes or fishing results will become so poor they will move on and destroy the next area. look at miltona right now, it looks like a muskie tournament out there almost every day. good luck catching fish out there for the next few weeks. it would be interesting to know the percentage of the population of the fish that have been caught on that lake and how many times each fish has been caught so far this yr???? | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | What keeps coming? Plague? huh? Who's going to destroy the lakes? | |
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| I think in the case of Local guide vs Out of state, the Out of towners IMO gain a bit more exposure due to their wide spread movements and they stay at home Local guide suffer because their exposure may be only county or state wide.
The traveller is like Wal-mart and the local is more like the Mom and pop shop. The big name vagabond guide hurts the local guy just trying to get by off his or her small area.
Bytor, Minnesotan fisherman have gotten pretty protective, however I am originally from wisconsin and have seen much more severe methods of keeping visitors away. It is just not Minn. that is protective. | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | For the third time:
I'll ask the question again, how many out of state guides are currently guiding for muskies in Minnesota or is this a vendetta against a small handful of people?
Why can't anyone answer this or the the second part of my question the answer? | |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
The core argument here is about using a state's resource for profit when you don't reside in that state.
Anyone is entitled to come to MN and fish by merely buying a fishing liscence.
But you shouldn't be able to profit from public resources of another state. Many other states have already recognized that and require guides or outfitters to be residents.
The collatoral damage done by guides that go from lake to lake, leaving only when fish have become so pressured they are hard to catch and everybody and their brother is fishing on that lake because of the publicity the guides have brought to it is another debate.
There are reasons why hunters have times they can hunt, zones they can hunt in. It's to alleviate congestion of those trying to enjoy the resource and head of potential conflict.
Is fishing going to go down that road? I don't know, but it sure seems like conflict is becoming more of an issue.
I wonder how some of these out of state guides would feel if the MN boys came down to thier waters and guided all winter?
Maybe some people need to step into anothers shoes and think for a minute.
JS
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| This isn't about money for the dnr, but is being used as a cover up against the big issues mn people have with out of state guides.
1. they catch more and bigger fish than most of the locals
2. they get to fish everyday
people don't like others going to "their" lake and catching more and bigger fish. This isn't about money, tax revenue, etc. It is about people getting mad that others are catching fish day in and day out. | |
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| yes, but they will never admit it.
The good and busy local guides in MN don't mind the out of state guides and are really good friends with most of them. Funny how that works...
It's about catching fish and being made about the fish they catch 100% | |
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| How many anglers would be willing to pay the guide a surcharge on top of their guide fee that the guide is required to pay to the DNR that will be dedicated to muskie stocking? | |
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| it wont be long until fishing takes a steep downward turn and catches will become less every yr and people will lose interest. way too much pressure and not enough lakes. 1 thing about the guides that is interesting to me is that for the most part if someone has there own boat and rods, why would someone hire a guide to fish a medium to small body of water. it shouldnt be to hard to figure it out. i can see hiring a guide to fish a large body of water like leech or mille lacs, but these lakes (come on) there is only so many places to hide. i can see if you dont have equipment, etc. | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | And if we want to specifically mention Miltona, seems like I just saw an ad in Musky Hunter Magazine from the Miltona Chamber of Commerce to come musky fish Lake Miltona. Maybe we should start a thread bashing them for bringing more pressure to the lake? | |
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Location: WI | Wouldn't there be a more productive thread talking about stocking more MN lakes rather than bickering about who gets to fish them?
It seems like these types of discussions didn't end up on the muskie boards until Mille Lacs went dead and people who were trying to make an HONEST living decided to to venture out to other lakes rather than wash lures all day. The debate can continue, but we could also put energy in getting more lakes stocked in MN so that the resource can continue to strive.
An Out of Stater who appreciates MN. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Guest and Guest;
Your assumptions that out of state guides are better fishermen than locals and they are jealous is hilarious.
Not everybody, including many MN guides tell everyone on the internet about the fish they catch. Exposure doesn't meant you're better, just means people know about you.
As far as MN guides being friends with them, yah some are, some used to be. Lots of out of staters have burned bridges by talking clients to spots MN guides showed them while fishing as friends. Despite promises being made from them of never taking clients there. You'd be very suprised at some of the antics that have happened in the past.
I think a lot of MN residents and guides are angry, but not jealous.
JS
Edited by john skarie 9/8/2009 12:04 PM
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| Interesting discussion that will probably get hot before it gets over. I fish with a guide in the winter who goes out of his home state to guide during the summer(actually his home state is MN!). He has regs and restrictions he must clear before fishing where he does. Once he does that he is legal to fish and so what? Nobodies' business at that time but his own.
If MN has regulations and a guide is qualified through those regulations you are pretty much out of arguing points about where they fish and who they take fishing.
However the discussion brings up several points that are interesting and germane to most musky fisherman.
#1 Do guides help or hurt the resource in any way? IMO, they do a lot to hurt the resource for me by adding crowding, a competitive aspect to the fishing, pressuring, catching and burning fish, giving up good spots and areas that I might have worked to learn, and in my home state some actually disregard ethics, and the resource to put money in their own pocket by fishing in overly warm summer water.
#2 Do guides bring in cash to MN? Negligible if any. Build a great fishing resource and the fisherman will find it, and exploit it. Only a guide would try and make the argument that they are bringing clients into the state. We have pretty much all instate guides down here, way too much out of state fishing pressure, and it is laughable that we would need out of state guides to bring in clients. WI does not need out of state guides either, nor does MI, TN or NY. If the fisheries good, guides will bloom like flies on dog####, or roses in a garden, whichever view one takes.
#3. MN is suffering from culture shock and just haven't identified it as such........yet. They went from an underutilized trophy resource to one that now is getting lots of national attention. I recently went to Vermillion, first time ever. Amazingly interesting ecosystem, and a huge number of quality fish are available in that lake. It must have been unbelievable just a few years ago. However, what I viewed is a pressured resource, with the good spots getting hit with regularity, and some getting hammered. Guides have a lot to do with that stuff too. Too bad for you guys, but although I wouldn't call the catching in that lake up to the standard of what I might catch in northern WI, the opportunity for a real quality fish is there, but the doggone buggers aren't jumpin in the boat anymore(if they ever?). You put the angling hours up there vs fish boated and that picture isn't all that stunning, if it ever was, but the angling hours per trophy boated are probably decent. The guides, for all their knowledge weren't getting them to hop in the boat when we were up there either, and in fact, if my info was correct, it was a tough bite for most of August. Welcome to WI MN, at least you have a big fish resource second to none, but perhaps Canada. You still have a lot less pressure than say, KY, and less than a lot of WI lakes. The total pressure on your trophy waters probably HAS NOT PEAKED YET.
#4 What can be done about guides? Well, you can probably better control the guides with some simple regs, if they are tenable to MN residents. I am always surprised there is not a stiff out of state fee for guiding in other states. I would think that would be the first step and the fee directly applicable to the resource they are milking for cash, ie goes directly into musky walleye etc. whatever their license specifies. The MN musky resource is almost totally a state funded resource and I would think that economic benenfits in the state would be best utilized by residents of MN, not KY, IN, MI, IL, and WI. We are poor down here and should probably be thankful for every guide that goes to MN in the summer or WI rather than fishing 80-90 degree water, but if I was a MN resident, I would probably place a tariff on out of state utilization of my revenue producing investment. My guess is, the lakes won't suffer a bit if they do this.
#5 And unfortunately, there is ALWAYS A NUMBER 5 that's a real bugger to deal with! Technology has far outpaced all the guides in MN. I was looking at GPS navigational stuff that goes far beyond what I would ever require a guide for at this point in my musky fishing. Between the Navionics chip technology, depth charting technology, and never even talking about tackle development, all Lake Vermillion locals and experienced fisherman are going to be under a lot of pressure in the future, even if MN banned guiding completely in their waters. If I had Navionics when I went up there, I would have been days ahead in my education, and I learned enough in a couple hours and with a map to effectively add some pressure to the lake, though not at an expert level. Maybe there isn't all that much point worrying about the guides. We all have other problems and intrusions on our fishing that basically go way beyond guides so.......SMILE......BE HAPPY!
Edited by firstsixfeet 9/8/2009 12:18 PM
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Location: New Hope MN | Muskie Treats - 9/8/2009 11:20 AM
dtaijo174, while this may be the land of the free, stocking muskies and getting new lakes and changing public opinion about muskies and muskie fishermen is not.
I agree, but it comes from voluntary means via Musky Inc. Catch and release ethics came from educating anglers, and again voluntary. Teach anglers, through education, to use local guides if you think it is wrong to use outside state guides.
Using government to enforce your moral belief, which it is, is tyrannical. Not to mention you are creating a mini local monopoly. In addition, the US constitution would protect outside businesses (in this case outside state guides) through the interstate commerce clause. Though, I doubt any guide has the money to take it to the Supreme Court.
My big issue with people pushing this is the monetary issue. If I regularly guide, fish only the hot lakes outside my state, and didn’t take payment for my services you would have no problem with it. If I make my living off of it you do have a problem with it. Case in point, there are no arguments for outside state anglers having to buy zoning permit or lake permits. The gimme gimme society.
Since you quote Jefferson:
“An Honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.”
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
“It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.” Think of this when you have to buy a zone permit as an in state angler.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | This is pointless.
Every state has stocked lakes with public access. A guide from Indiana has just as much right to go to Minn. or Wisc. and guide a lake of his/her choice as anyone from WI or MN does on Indiana's waters. Private funding for stocking and preservation makes no difference because it's all relative around the country. Lake associations that support the fishery of a private lake with no public access is a little different, but public fisheries are public fisheries. MN and WI are not different continents or countries. The invisible borders don't have road blocks like Canada. Woods and water belong to all of us, and it's a simple personal dilemma for individuals who suffer discomfort when other people fish or hunt "their" woods and water. So if I have donated towards the funding of a lake, can another who has done the same for a different lake fish the particular lake I donated to? SURE, and I can fish theirs.
What's the argument here? | |
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| Yes getting more lakes stocked would be nice in MN. But we who live here put in the work to get one stocked recently.
How many out of state guides put in any effort to get more lakes stocked in the recent Gull and Pokegeman meetings?
Answer: none
But you know who will be the first to take clients to the lakes other people put in the work required to get them stocked.
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| Sam Ubl - 9/8/2009 12:14 PM
This is pointless.
Every state has stocked lakes with public access. A guide from Indiana has just as much right to go to Minn. or Wisc. and guide a lake of his/her choice as anyone from WI or MN does on Indiana's waters. Private funding for stocking and preservation makes no difference because it's all relative around the country. Lake associations that support the fishery of a private lake with no public access is a little different, but public fisheries are public fisheries. MN and WI are not different continents or countries. The invisible borders don't have road blocks like Canada. Woods and water belong to all of us, and it's a simple personal dilemma for individuals who suffer discomfort when other people fish or hunt "their" woods and water. So if I have donated towards the funding of a lake, can another who has done the same for a different lake fish the particular lake I donated to? SURE, and I can fish theirs.
What's the argument here?
You might like it to be that way, however, if the state wants to step in and regulate things they will. There is actually no innate right for guides to go guide in other states. They have to meet qualifications to do so, and as an example, I meet the qualifications to guide for Moose in KY, however, I am suspicious that I do NOT meet the qualifications to guide for Moose in Alaska, even though currently I am probably the only guide willing to take you out Moose hunting in KY.  | |
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| again, why don't the MN guides go south during the spring and fish when the MN lakes are still frozen or the season hasn't opened up yet?
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Location: Watertown, MN | Lots of good point, missed a good post from voice messages left.
To me the biggest issue was the bite falling off on Mill lacs and the guides going on the move, thus putting pressure on many folks favorite lakes, that they have never guided pressure before, no one minded all the guys beating the h@ck out of the POND, but they have moved on. Some out of staters are guiding regularly on brood stock lakes, ethical no, this was one first things that was first brought to my attention when I joined MI. Protect and respect your Resource. I think JS post it well on ethics and guide mobility has changed in today world. Great for clients, YES. for resources and general publics, probably not,
Gotone(dan): I agree with getting new lakes started, but who is doing that, is not being pushed by state, but by MI, MMA and several folks donating time and sitting on special committees and roundtable with officials, and presseing for this. Are the interested in getting new lakes started to have out of staters and mn guides come bring pressure to lake, and educating high rate of return pressure to their lake or new resource. So do some feel why should I build a resource John Boy to come make a living, I see more and more of the movers asking themselves that ?
Probably 12 or more out of state guides, but mutliply the pressure they bring to a resource, by educating anglers, dialing in patterns, and giving many folks the keys to good bites. This also does apply to local guide too.
But it is a limited resource and that one many want to protect, like on guy stated us becoming like WI, that is why you see the passion about the resource here is we want to protect it, and do not know the best answer to do that with the guide situation. Like the one post and it just take one bad experience with a out of state guide (OSG), like refusing to help support local chapters and the word travels fast in this group. MN fish are support by Tax payer money, and get a lot of support from the MI chapters through the state in subsidising stock of fish for DNR short falls and helping them on other projects.
The more toes get stepped on the louder people will scream!
PS- I would like to that the guides that have been a big support of MI donating time, tackle and trip in helping us raise money for the support of MI raising money to stock fish.
Troyz
Edited by Troyz. 9/8/2009 12:39 PM
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| Guest - 9/8/2009 12:29 PM
again, why don't the MN guides go south during the spring and fish when the MN lakes are still frozen or the season hasn't opened up yet?
What does this have to do with the discussion? | |
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| There are a lot of guides in Minnesota. It just sucks when a lot of them pound your home water each and every day of the week.... | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | I'd like someone to explain "protecting the resource". Since we are all CPR, what is it that we are exactly protecting? Seems to me the Minnesota DNR hasn't seen any population density declines. I think the local definition of "protecting the resource" is having dumb, uneducated fish that are easy to catch.
Edited by musky23 9/8/2009 12:52 PM
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Location: Musky Country | Slim - 9/8/2009 12:36 PM
There are a lot of guides in Minnesota. It just sucks when a lot of them pound your home water each and every day of the week....
Boy I here ya there Slim!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| I agree with TroyZ.
Guiding on Brood stock lakes should be banned by the DNR.
Profiting from those lakes is not what they were intended for.
The advent of email and the internet has changed this sport dramatically and it's not a good thing. Look how many guides have left Vermilon and Mille Lac for less pressured and dumber fish.
Guides do have an impact on the resource and it's not a good one imo | |
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| Slim,
How many of those are out of state guides? I only know of a very select few that are out of state guides. | |
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Location: WI | I see your point Troy.....to be honest I am surprised to see that out of state guides would not support the local MI chapters in the areas that they fish. Seems like the logical thing to do to me.
Since the MMT and other groups help to support stocking in MN, could an out of state guide join the Minnesota Muskie Guide Association who help MN support stocking in the lakes.
I guess maybe the out of state guides could use some better PR for themselves to eliminate some of the negative feelings. But when it all comes down to it, I think it is more of a personal feeling of being "invaded" rather than "what are they doing for MN".
Understandable? Yes.....but they are still trying to make a living. | |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Musky23 if you reply my post, Brood stock lakes are lake that hold the fish that are used for stocking MN waters. Yes usually higher pop, and we tend to leave them alone and not harrass them daily. Ethics, you can kill a fish everyday because the laws states that you can, but I am sure you would be bashed if you did.
Troy | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | If fishing is going to affect the success of a brood stock lake, the DNR would ban fishing on them to protect the fish. There is nothing about fishing (except during the spawn) that is going to hurt egg recruitment in the spring. | |
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| Hard for dead fish to produce eggs........ | |
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| Here is the point Slim is trying to make.
He had a lake possibly that wasn't being guided say 5 yrs ago.
Then say a local guy develops a new lure and it gets hot. He becomes friends with some out of state guides who used his new hot lure on lakes like Mille Lacs and V.
Those lakes turn off, too much pressure on V and fish move out of weeds/rocks on Mille Lacs.
Then said guide friends come to lure makers lake to set up basecamp. Now you have at times 4 to 5 guide boats on the lake every day, not just once in a while, every day. So at primetime they are camped on the 5 best spots. If I were Slim I would be annoyed too. You can't go out some days without those same guys being out there camped on all the fish and spots you want to fish.
Always try to look at both sides of the coin. | |
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| musky23 - 9/8/2009 12:40 PM
I'd like someone to explain "protecting the resource". Since we are all CPR, what is it that we are exactly protecting? Seems to me the Minnesota DNR hasn't seen any population density declines. I think the local definition of "protecting the resource" is having dumb, uneducated fish that are easy to catch.
I think they are looking forward to possibly protecting the resource from having to wait in line to fish every good potential musky spot. Protecting the population from having increasing losses from increased hooking/handling mortality, and possibly as suggested by literature, growth loss and maximum size loss for numbers of fish. And in brood lakes protecting the large breeding fish from overhandling/stressing as might be cause by excessive targetting by guides with clients(I wanna picture with my 50!).
Understand also that protecting the resource can mean sustaining some semblance of unpressured fish, eager biters, etc. Something many of us have rarely encountered, and a resource that is notably exciting when experienced. | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | While I understand some of the negative aspects of fishing pressure, I REALLY have a hard time understanding how 5-6 out of state "gypsy" guides are going to cause all of this to happen. Pressure is a completely different topic than a handful of out of state guides. I guess my point is we have an open bashing of all current and future evils of the state of Minnesota musky fishing and it's all being (completely unfairly) blamed on a handful of guys.
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Location: New Hope MN | musky23 - 9/8/2009 1:08 PM
While I understand some of the negative aspects of fishing pressure, I REALLY have a hard time understanding how 5-6 out of state "gypsy" guides are going to cause all of this to happen. Pressure is a completely different topic than a handful of out of state guides. I guess my point is we have an open bashing of all current and future evils of the state of Minnesota musky fishing and it's all being (completely unfairly) blamed on a handful of guys.
Because someone must be blamed for your failures. Except yourself of course. | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | And I would think that things like resorts, local guides, Musky Hunter Magazine, heck, even MuskieFirst bring a heck of a lot more fishing pressure to Minnesota that a handful of out of state guides do.
Edited by musky23 9/8/2009 1:17 PM
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| You are the one making this about the out of staters.....it is more about the roving band of guides that lake hop. | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | Ummmmm......muskydeceiver, I think you need to go back and read the rest of the posts if you think I'm the only one making this out to be out of state guides. It's what the whole thread is basically about. | |
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Location: Nowheresville, MN | There is one benefit there though Slim...when you round that corner and don't see those rigs parked you know the fishing will stink before you even launch the boat...and you know which lake is going better... | |
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| ....nevermind......I'm going fishing......
Edited by muskydeceiver 9/8/2009 1:28 PM
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| I agree with other posters, this should not be about a couple out of state guides. This is about a flock of gypsies that are deceding on small lakes. If we focus only on out of staters they will just claim residency in MN, afterall they are here so long it would be easy to do. | |
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| musky23 - 9/8/2009 1:08 PM
While I understand some of the negative aspects of fishing pressure, I REALLY have a hard time understanding how 5-6 out of state "gypsy" guides are going to cause all of this to happen. Pressure is a completely different topic than a handful of out of state guides. I guess my point is we have an open bashing of all current and future evils of the state of Minnesota musky fishing and it's all being (completely unfairly) blamed on a handful of guys.
It looks like an open group of topics to me, centering around pressure, the role of guides in general, possible need to regulate out of state guides for each state, and a number of other things. If we agree that there are only "5-6" out of state guides, then I don't see why everybody can't see to eliminate out of state guides entirely. If that is the primary objection MN residents have, I can support them in getting rid of the out of state guides. That makes sense and will leave any MN musky guiding income stream, available to be utilized by MN residents, paying MN property taxes, income taxes and supporting the area by spending the income they earn, in state winter and summer. It may also open opportunities for more MN in state guides to operate year around, through snowmobile, hunting ice fishing and summer fishing seasons.
Whats the big deal about getting rid of a few out of state guides? There will be plenty of guides available for those that want them. I can guarantee it.  | |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Musky23, it not the 6 guides that brings total pressure, it the hundreds of angler they are educating them networking with friend to show up back to this lake again for weekends or weeks stays once they have been given the key, both in and out state, but issue arising more since the vast majority have moved off mill lacs which people said okay because there local lakes were left for them, know everyone is moving in on them. Any the pressure will multiply as more get to these new lakes.
How does it effect brood stock, delayed mortality, excess pressure can get them change spawning locations, injured fish might be as strong spawners due to fighting injuries from previous years.
So I ask why release fish, because we have chosen CPR, these are guides they are supposed to be better than average anglers, anyone can beat up on dumb fish, impress me and fish regular lake like the rest of the folks. or is it a ego think? The DNR has designated one CPR.
Troy
Edited by Troyz. 9/8/2009 1:45 PM
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Location: New Hope MN | you cannot regulate out of state guides differently than in state. Interstate Commerce Clause US Constitution. What is done to one person applies to all. | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | Troy, good points. But if you take away these 6 out of state guides and there is a demand for guiding, 6 new in state guides will take their place. Then you still have all of the exact issues you just stated...no?
Mike | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Wisconsin used to have a residency requirement for a Guide license. That was changed a few years back, I believe because so few 'new' guides had put out a shingle, and the feds stepped in regulating all the Captains who didn't know they WERE a Captain. All have to pay for a license, but it's a token charge at $40 a year for inland waters when compared to a captiain's License requirement.
I thought that was a step backwards.
I personally think residency for a Guide or Outfitter license should be a requirement in ALL states, as should insurance and an affidavit signed and notarized that the Guide will uphold all State game and fish laws with the understanding that as a State Licensed Guide, any infraction would be punished severely. This encourages accountability to all guiding/outfitting regulations the state deems necessary including state taxation, acceptable insurance guaranteed for the client, and a record of who is a 'guide' and who isn't. I think you'd still see the same number of MN guides you see now, except all would be 'legal residents' since that is not all that hard to accomplish given the amount of time many spend there, so the objections would then be more to 'conservation' than 'invasion'. Many of the top Guide names are MN folks anyway, with a few from other states sprinkled in.
The concept it's Out of Sate guides only who bring pressure to lakes anywhere by teaching the water to clients is not well founded, those anglers would learn the water one way or another if they intend to fish it and return. there are many arguing points here, and some should not spill over to others, IMO. The 'problem' is MN has created an incredible fishery, and folks will go there to fish. I do believe that was the goal from the State level.
On the other hand, the concept of 'ownership' of the fish due to volunteer work for the good of the public resource seems to be much like the old saying about volunteering...the SECOND you expect compensation, you are no longer a volunteer. | |
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| The orginating poster reposted about what the guides are contributing to the fishery that they are clearly having an impact on. While they may not be calling him back offering to write checks, some do give generously to MI chapters and some of those chapters are writing big checks to stock many lakes and will write more checks if/when the MN DNR gives approval to start the 8 new lakes they promised. Their giving to the resource does not eliminate the need to equitably distribute the fishing pressure they bring with their business. | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | By the way, I am not against Minn having a guide regulation or having guides pay a higher out of state guide fee. I think there should be a standard to make sure the guides all (in state included) have their ducks in a row. | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | dtaijo174 - 9/8/2009 10:11 AM
Muskie Treats - 9/8/2009 11:20 AM
dtaijo174, while this may be the land of the free, stocking muskies and getting new lakes and changing public opinion about muskies and muskie fishermen is not.
I agree, but it comes from voluntary means via Musky Inc. Catch and release ethics came from educating anglers, and again voluntary. Teach anglers, through education, to use local guides if you think it is wrong to use outside state guides.
If you read my posts you'll note I wasn't singling out out of state guides but that a guide license is general is desired. If it was structured right the revenue would go back to the resource whether it be walleye, muskie, bass, etc.
I also do promote the guides who give to our chapter and who have a history of being proactive with the resource and generous with their time and money. These guides have booked many more trips then they would have if they were keeping to themselves. I also have cost many guides (instate and out) trips that have a history of not helping and/or those that show poor ethics. It's funny how many of the guides out there don't get the marketing aspect of their business. | |
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Location: New Hope MN | Treats, I know you weren't singling out out of state guides.... I just didn't want to post twice. Sorry for my wrath
I agree guides should want to help out the lakes they are working on. It's in their best interest to keep well stocked lakes. | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Maybe they should have a "muskie" stamp additional to a fishing license. Just like a Salmon or Trout stamp. Pay more to fish that particular species. And that portion of the license is soley directed at stocking. People pay to catch fish, not a boat ride, so any smart angler will fish where the bite is, who the heck wouldnt. I personally will not argue any "guide" issues as I am not one of them. FYI - Just reading all of this thread though is almost enough to never hire a guide in the first place. | |
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Location: Musky Country | Guest - 9/8/2009 12:59 PM
Here is the point Slim is trying to make.
He had a lake possibly that wasn't being guided say 5 yrs ago.
Then say a local guy develops a new lure and it gets hot. He becomes friends with some out of state guides who used his new hot lure on lakes like Mille Lacs and V.
Those lakes turn off, too much pressure on V and fish move out of weeds/rocks on Mille Lacs.
Then said guide friends come to lure makers lake to set up basecamp. Now you have at times 4 to 5 guide boats on the lake every day, not just once in a while, every day. So at primetime they are camped on the 5 best spots. If I were Slim I would be annoyed too. You can't go out some days without those same guys being out there camped on all the fish and spots you want to fish.
Always try to look at both sides of the coin.
You said that Perfect | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Muskiewhored, do a search on "muskie stamp" it's been hashed out several times. The feeling in the DNR is that when you figure in the cost to manage it there wouldn't be enough net income to make it worth their time. MN just had their first voluntary walleye stamp and it only netted about 10% of the total take. That's not a great investment of our $$$. | |
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| as i see it, the issue in MN is sustainability.
MN has a few really huge lakes that can absorb a ton of boat pressure...but when those boats go elsewhere the options are very limited indeed.
- is the muskie resource sustainable under the current/increasing pressure?
i'm not a biologist, but with high levels of CPR, i think it is, yes.
- is the fishing experience sustainable under the current/increasing pressure?
without more lakes, no, i don't think it is.
i'm a southern WI resident with a land-owning stake in west-central MN who has given thousands of dollars in donations to Muskies Inc in both states, so i'm not sure where i get slotted...but i know i'd much prefer it if all those big-name guides were bringing clients to Mille Lacs rather than "my" area. and i suppose the folks who live near the big pond are happy to see everyone leave...classic NIMBY.
regardless, i don't think state residency is the proper measure for whether or not someone has enough of a stake in the fishery or has done enough for the fishery to make a living or some money from it.
that being said, i do think it's entirely reasonable to require by law that any profit-making effort (guides, tournies, etc.) to give back to the resource either through fees or licenses or whatever. if you're willing to pay that fee it shouldn't matter what your address is. and i think those fees should be quite high.
if we can't get that in place by law, we can exert social pressure on the tourney organizers, guides, etc.
one thing that we can all do is to support local fishery efforts: there's waaaaay more out-of-state fishermen who aren't supporting them than guides - and that means you and you and you who have gone to MN in search of a trophy fish. send a donation to an MI club, write a letter to a legislator when asked to do so, or just choose to hire a local guide who's a member of the local club in that area.
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Location: Oswego, IL | I see treats... point taken.
I have read both sides as a simple angler, what I see is two senarios, out of state guides bring in money, if not just themselves the people they guide buy gear, gas, lodging, licenses. They on a small portion do support the community, maybe not the lake itself, but they do contribute to the state. Those same guides may be helping thier own state stocking with the money they make from another, which on the other coin, also have other out of state guides fishing that lake they just put money into, so I see both have the same issues, and more of a wash. Sure some dont think its a wash because one is more favorable than the other, but one day it could be the opposite so be careful on what your trying to do. With as silly as some sound whats next? Telling the lure manufactures for making such a great lure that its dropping hundreds of muskies in boat for stocking money? is it the guides or the lures catching fish? Again I am sure guides give back or at least IMO should, as giving back is only JOB SECURITY! No fish = no work. If everyone worked as hard together as they do against eachother on here things would be that much better.
Edited by muskiewhored 9/8/2009 3:02 PM
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Location: New Hope MN | If you are a guide, MARKET THAT YOU DONATE/VOLUNTEER to MI chapters! Another good idea, ask your clients if they would like to donate to the local chapter. Maybe that would cool down some of this... | |
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Location: Colorado/Birch Point, Lake Vermilion | I personally would only use a local guide. I find they have a better knowledge of the area and while all guides may know the 'hot spots' the locals will have their own spots that out of towners may not know. I like to support the local economy when I go to areas I haven't fished before. I also like to buy bait, groceries and some tackle locally as I believe it makes the fishery and local economy stronger. I personally do not have a problem with out of towners guiding as long as they are respectful of the locals , the resource, and non-guided fishermen. They are trying to make a living and may have to travel to do so as fishing is not always great in one area. I think if you have a problem with out of state guides do what you can to support the locals, buy their lures, hire them as your guide, recommend them to friends or even the vacationers at the bar. I think that will have a better outcome then bashing specific guides on the internet. | |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Muskie Treats - 9/8/2009 2:36 PM
MN just had their first voluntary walleye stamp and it only netted about 10% of the total take. That's not a great investment of our $$$.
If the numbers I read in the paper recently were correct, anglers were surveyed before this voluntary walleye stamp became a reality and just over 50% said that they would buy it. Fast forward to today and only 1% of anglers buying a license also purchased the walleye stamp.
Aaron | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Crazzzzzy....... | |
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| Musky23 -
Lets for arguments sake say you are a deer hunter. How would you feel if some out of state people, came in and started guiding deer on public lands in IL?
How would you feel if they started hunting the land you have been hunting for years?
What if they all talked to each other everyday about where the bucks have been moving, and when you walk out to your stand one afternoon there are three of them in the same woods chasing the same buck that you have been scouting for weeks?
Now how would you feel if pretty soon there were less and less bucks to shoot? That is where this is going.
We all want to catch more and bigger fish. Peoples feathers get ruffled when someone else is benefiting from our hard work and $$ then having the resource left worse than they found it, which is exactly what is happening.
I'd love to hear from some out of state guides, or in state guides for that matter on how they would feel about paying a fee to guide in MN, with the understanding that the $ would go back into the resource.
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| ColoAndy, yours is a statement to be commended in a world of chest pounders. Every one wants to hire the guy on TV. Because he's "The Best" since he's on TV. What about the local guide who is probably better? What about the guy who lives in the area and feeds his wife and children from the money he makes guiding in his home range? Or the guide who has a non fishing job in the community and takes people out when he's done with work. Aren't those the guys that need protection from the "Gypsy" (I like that) guides who have no ties to the area?
I for one have fished with both of these kind of guides. And after this you can bet I'll go with the local.
Joe | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Good post Mike!
Although I don't think that MN can sustain it's current quality of fishing that we're enjoying right now (much less 5-10 years ago). There's just too much pressure and too many outlets for information out there. Even if we added 20 new lakes this fall it'd be 10+ years before it was a decent fishery. Not that the DNR has the political will or dollars to actually start another 20 lakes. Shoot, it's going to be a battle to get 8 in the next 10 years!
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have seen this in Wisconsin even when residency was required. Guides staked out 'territory', and expected no other guides would infringe- which was unrealistic. I see quite a few top name MN based Guides moving around from hot bite to hot bite too, so what are we talking about with 'protection' for the local guide? Some of the guides moving about have WAY more to offer in education and knowledge than some of the local folks, and that's a fact...so it becomes a question of how micro we get with this discussion. I'd hire the most qualified based on customer ratings and success ratio, myself. I would also be more comfortable knowing the Guide's rig has passed a State inspection, he/she is required to have sufficient insurance, and all required stuff is onboard by regulation. That's just a small segment of the requirement on fed waters for captains, which I find to be a great idea. Mike's idea of a 'very large' license fee is laudable, but realistically, the administrative amounts needed to put that into effect would require the fee be QUITE large before any money ended up in the hands of the DNR for muskie habitat or stocking. The $40 in Wisconsin doesn't do much. What is the suggested amount,$200. $500 $1000.00? Less, more? And what would be left for the DNR? Law would need be written to allocate those fees to the desired habitat and stocking programs. Would there be 'divisions' for Walleye, Bass, Pike, and Panfish Guides so those fees are allocated to those species?
Promoting one's business by appearing in magazines and on TV isn't 'chest pounding', IMHO, it's promoting; if a Muskie Guide intends to make a living JUST guiding, it pretty important to do.
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Location: Mallard Island Lake Vermilion MN | Guide some time now.
Enjoy it all....
Less now as slowed down a bunch an trying o enjoy it all still.
CANCER blows...but 9 months free so eat that.
Why argu on this stuff...dose it really matter?
Will this stuff online do anyone any good / bad.
Most guides I ever met are good people.
Period.
Running around different lake when young is about as cool as it could get.
I would be one of them for sure had muskie fishen been this good 30 yers ago..no doubt.
on thing is never mentioned is in long run this running around will do harm to them in long run as far as if not saving for future.
Cause no paying into SS or that type stuff or being emplayed for a pension or having dental or health stuff like that.
Otheer wize....I say just go guide, have fun.live life.
Never really cared who fished where.....
Never thought about really...did ask couple guides I knew fished lake in 1998 if they figured I could fish muskies an make any money an if they gived a hoot?
Both told me go for it an actually helped me with some odd questions I had about peope stuff an money an setting up whole guide deal....was fun...plus we watche fish grow to what it has bcome now...
No way did I ever figure on what is going down now with fish or numbers of people...not in my life time..no way.
We are...still friends....don't see each other much as they work when I play an I play when they work or I play to much or am to handsome an on an on.
Aaron Zorn...a guy I knew a long time ago....asked me once what I thought of Chadly Cainer fishen Vermilion...I honestly said Chad who.
DA!
I guess that shows you how much I knew about other guides and out state guides.
Then one time I seen Chads truck at a landing I had land by.......left him a note that it would maybe be cool to meeet him an have something grilled n killed.
Been sort a friends with him since.....think he knows my Mom better than me, met my sisters an is a good dude.
Kinda reminds me of Gomer Pyle when he was younger.
LOL
But he can fish...no doubt...no doubt.
This year out of blue I got to meet Lee T. of Lees lures.
Nice guy....he was on lake with friends I think....then got a call or something to guide...met them here...something like that...so who cares?
Fishen is fishen...sposed to be fun....
Heck I was bizzy when he called....even invited him out to my docks to meet me boyz and up onto my island digs for a bit while I was redoing my deck boards.
Hell he even guided someone I had guided before....plus got the guy on a 52" inch or so.
Sweet. How could that be bad?
Makes some nice lures also...good fisher, very friendly nice person.....how could I not welcome him to the area, lake or my digs.
Known Luke R. a long time but not like buddies.
He makes good lures an runs all oveer.
How can that be bad to enjoy life an do it doing somwting your good at a enjoy...plus make a few bucks an have fu.
He can fish too...dam tooten.
One night I took a guy into Greenwood to show hm how to run it....was amazed as in 15 minutes there were four other guides in there I know don't live on lake or near lake....couple new guys also how do...BIG PARTY I guess....funny.
Some or all way deep in the STUFF an me way out in my holding areas lookin in.
All said hi I think....but after showen the guy I was with how I would work it I did leave scrathen me lil brain.
LOL
Guess I just like to get along with everyone.
No idea why someone would care where someone else lives to guide or keep them away to guide.
Make no sense to me.
But I did do a lot of things to fog me brains when I was a kid.
Travled the world doing it...no one stopped me.
LOL
Everything was free...so why not.
but I drift.
Sorry.
Keep on rocken!
Got into guiding to help others learn lake while on vacation.
I did it a bunch, learned some junk...figure I could help others....nothing better than meeting some other fun people like simular stuff, spend day on water fshen an make a few bucks.
Use coin earned to keep doing it....hell yeah!
Just figured I could help...never claimed to know more than anyone or be best at anything.
Before I owned island 13 yuear ago I was a no local also...still only live there in open water.
Cabin is 79 year old...would turn into a humansicle if i stayed to long.
I know Bob Benson is same way...an he is a heck of a fisher.
Dustin Carelson is also a great fisher guy an don't live on alke.
I don't feel they would mind or care if someone from where ever guided ...maybe but I doubt it.
Josh B. can fish ...dam good fisher..he is a minnesota kid...fishes all over...should he not be on V....heck of a shame if he could not show his clients a good time.
Some new guides on lake very year....it is not same place it was even 5 year ago but still fun place to hide.
Wish them all a safe sucsseful season.
Lots of guides only really mean fish see more lures....more often.
Funny thing is I must fish in wrong places as I rarly see these guys.
Freaky.
Maybe they wear Camo?
Taxes...hell with that...come on...we all would not pay if yer honset an did not have to pay.
DNR would find a way to work it out.
Like My idea to Shawn "Treats" Kellet....lets have a dunk tank at state fair.
Fill it ith water...also have one for $10 full of chezzzzzzz Whizzzzzzz.
$5 to dunk dinks of muskie world.
Make 100's of K and bling...to fund mukie junk or help kids or something fun...needed....having fun doing fun junk...like uskie fishen is sposed to be.
I play...we pay..wife Bean is accounttant so by the book...but would not if did not have to.
FOR SURE!
Or have a casino for just DNR...don't like it...don't go.
Simple.
Go to the one for something else.......like yer choice of nasty fast food, Rotten Ronnies or Wasted Wendys or Slury of Arbys....wow....how can one eat that.
Kill it then grill it.
Even Areosmith are hippodinks...rememeber eat the rich....now they get $400 a seat...sumthin stinks.
B.C. idea or Hookers idea could be cool...everyone on same field...make everyone happy...no need to argu or bicker with fingers.
Guide pays a bit, money goes to something good.
Works for me.
Dose anyone ever get in a good ol fist fight any more with out a lawyer being called...I used to love to...for sure.
POW...we got it on an now best buds or not...resecpt each other for sure.
OH YEAH!
I guess one should not coment unless a guide or a relation or a tax man.
But I do know like me cops love donuts.
Has nothing to do with fishen or dose it?
Maybe someday I will even be on THE NEXT BITE!
How cool would that be for everyone!
Me an Pistol Pete in same boat........wow!
LOL x 1000000000000000000
I ramble as nothing to do until Thursday when I go back to lake.
My son is 32...getting married Sept 19th....sweet eh.
I waited until I was 48...so he has found his MRS. RIGHT early....how cool is that....guess I be Granpa Musky T. next year?
Well...hope ya not mad at me for wasting yer time...none of this means anything but you read it.
Now go fishen, help a poor guy out, take him or her with, think of good not bad, smile they are free..
Watch yer PSA an LIVE!
Keep on rocken.
Tommy | |
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Posts: 8844
| So the real issue isn't the guides themselves, is it? It's the number of anglers that now fish these lakes that never saw much pressure. I suppose its more convenient to blame the out of state guides, but it's probably a combination of out of state guides, resident guides, magazines, TV shows, websites, muskie videos, and even Muskies Inc. that is causing this. Every time angler X catches a 50"+ musky in MN, and the pictures of that fish find their way to all the Muskie related media out there, it is going to bring more people to the area, in search of that big fish.
If you build it, they will come. If you build it, and promote the heck out of it, they will come by the thousands. Blame whomever you need to blame if it helps you sleep at night, but the truth is that muskie anglers will find good muskie fishing wherever it occurs no matter what you do. | |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | I hope no one complaining about the amount of pressure in MN was once a Twin Cities guy fishing Bone and Deer every weekend back in the 80's and early 90's before the metro area had a quality muskie fishery. That would be the epitome of heresy. Well, other than the signing of a certain quarterback...;) | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | The wierd thing to me is as BIG as most people are trying to make Muskie fishing, it seems there isnt the resources for it. Does the stocking even keep up?
By the way Tommy, got a kick out of your post. Live on brother!
Edited by muskiewhored 9/8/2009 4:35 PM
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Slim, who else is guiding up there these days? | |
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Posts: 2361
| lambeau - 9/8/2009 2:49 PM
one thing that we can all do is to support local fishery efforts: there's waaaaay more out-of-state fishermen who aren't supporting them than guides - and that means you and you and you who have gone to MN in search of a trophy fish. send a donation to an MI club, write a letter to a legislator when asked to do so, or just choose to hire a local guide who's a member of the local club in that area.
The guide thing to me is kind of a moot deal. Get rid of 10 guides and 10 more sprout to take their place, and eventually the clods and dorks and selfish end up getting shook out and you are left with the guides that provide service, personality and teaching ability.
However as for out of state fisherman supporting a fishery? I think that an 18 hour drive, accomadations, license, docking fee, food, fuel, and a couple baits and a few meals out, does a lot to support the fishery, particularly when I would never be in that area, the resort most likely not be full, and the bar down the road slow due to the season. All those things support the fishery. particularly when you don't even keep a fish, or in the case of many anglers don't even catch their target specie. Think of all the guys that went on the musky first trip and their expenses. They ALL both bought and supported the musky resource MN provided. I doubt ANY of us would have gone for Walleyes, though I hear the blue gill experience is phenomenol. I think there are other ways to support outside fisheries, but you and I and all the muskiefirst bunch have supported and given MN a good return on their musky stocking ventures.
The MN guys and the crabby KY guys like me, need to remember that the stream of visitors that pressures the resource also gives the DNR a good reason to continue providing it. Talk to the Ohio guys. They could tell you some stuff. | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Actually, its the internet's fault. Word of mouth is now word of fingers. | |
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| I think everyone who fishes muskie realize, "new" lakes typically have an amazing run in the early stages and then things settle down to normal fishing...this happens all across the muskie range...It was mentioned that no guides either in state or out of state showed up at the Gull Lake meeting...the way folks speak about guides, especially the out of state ones, why would they? Read your own posts, sounds like Rush Limbo inviting Nancy Pelosi to help him out....the drama is entertaining though....only in MN.....Ben | |
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| AWH - 9/8/2009 3:29 PM
Muskie Treats - 9/8/2009 2:36 PM
MN just had their first voluntary walleye stamp and it only netted about 10% of the total take. That's not a great investment of our $$$.
If the numbers I read in the paper recently were correct, anglers were surveyed before this voluntary walleye stamp became a reality and just over 50% said that they would buy it. Fast forward to today and only 1% of anglers buying a license also purchased the walleye stamp.
Aaron
Unfortunately this is exactly why the stamp should NOT BE voluntary... Just like a fishing license is NOT an option. Is a salmon/trout stamp voluntary? Maybe only non-resident muskie fisherman should be required to buy this stamp??? Just an idea. Or maybe a non-resident stamp should cost substantially more than a resident stamp? Either way. As an out of state fisherman who fishes MN for muskies, I would be more than willing to pay $50, $100, or $200 for a MN muskie stamp. I think alot of the people who are currently upset about out of state guides, and the added pressure they bring, along with their past clients returning to MN would be all for this idea? More guys muskie fishing MN would equal more $$$ towards MUSKIE stocking.
Personally I am blaming Al Gore, not out-of state guides. If he hadn't put an end to Global Warming, maybe every summer would offer incredible muskie fishing like in the hot summers preceding 2008. Record setting cold the last two summers has not done any muskie fisherman any favors in MN.
Another out-of-stater who appreciates MN...their muskies anyways.
Another U.S. citizen who appreciates the freedoms America offers. (like fishing in whichever state I choose whenever I choose to.)
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Posts: 20263
Location: oswego, il | I would like to see all guides, clubs and organazations be at the forefront of musky fishing and it's causes, period.
Not sure why a guide would turn down a client because the hot bite is not close by? That arguement escapes me completely, why turn down business.
Not once has anyone mentioned the guides who go north who help the north guides come south when their season is closed. | |
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Location: Carver | Tom - Nicely said.
As i see it more exposure due to guides in state or out can be a good thing for musky fishing in Minnesota as long as the new people that are drawn into the game become inolved in organizations that support the resource. Our DNR/MI has done ubelievable work creating great musky fishing opportunities in MN. The negative side of that is what is being focused on here, ie out of state or for that matter heavy in state guiding pressure. On the flip side - is it possible that this exposure could help create more research/funding/additional water in the long term? I guess the answer to that is up to.....pretty much everyone on this site.
So, instead of saying we dont want a bunch of out out of state guides on our waters, maybe we ask that they promote minnesota chapters of MI and such? Get those clients donating some $$$ and sooner or later we have more waters...
wrong? | |
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| In my opinion people have a right to fish anywhere they want if it is a lake open to the public. Sure fishing pressure on a lake can get frustrating .
But that does not mean we should start making up petty rules about who is allowed to fish a certain lake.
You just have to learn to adapt to the pressure. It is part of the fun of fishing. The challenge & some times the FRIENDLY competition. | |
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| Many suggested money will fix the problem by increasing stocking. The MN DNR will not increase the number of fish that can be stocked in these lakes. They have a formula and they are not going to change it. And some of the lakes that are getting pounded by these guys don't get stocked. This is why so many people are concerned about the long term effect of a flock of guides decending on a small lake. If they increase catch mortality during a peak bite and the lake cannot get a shot in the arm with supplemental stocking you know what will happen. Also consider if they are such great guides then they are catching some of the biggest fish in the lake, the ones with the big fish genes that produce the next super tanker offspring. A sudden increase in delayed mortality on these fish could have devastating effects on a small lake. Heck Mille Lacs may be proving to us that it can have devastating effect on a big lake. | |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Someone asked a few times how many guides we are talking about, could we get a close estimate, both MN and out of staters for the traveling guides? | |
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Posts: 379
Location: Thief River Falls MN | millesie,
Out of the 1000 you spend, I doubt if much more than a small part of the license will get back into the fishery. The first 400 or so for the guide is probably leaving town untaxed..... | |
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Posts: 229
| I agree with Steve it really is Al Gore's fault. Yes Al Gore ended global warming as we all know... But Steve failed to mention he too invented the internet- where people have let the word out on how big and plentiful Minnesota muskies are. So it is ALL Al Gore's fault. Without Al Gore we'd have none of these problems
John | |
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Posts: 3158
| finally can we put an end to something!!!
were getting 8 new muskie waters in Minn over the long range plan
8 -period !
8 -done deal !
8 -were through talking !
8 accept it and get on with it !
all this talk about exposure getting new waters is a waste-were getting 8!!!
actually make that 7 because POK got stocked last year.
we cant even get a timetable from the dnr for the rest of the 7 they have owed to us. | |
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Posts: 15
| I was trying to think in my head of the number of guides
Visiting: I came up with about 20 that I have personally met. In the last few seasons. I think a couple have switched residency to MN the last year or two.
Resident: Who knows... I figure without resort guides maybe somewhere around 100? | |
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| I would like to see a list of 20 of the out of state guides, that actually are guides...not just there fishing with friends and what not. I think 20 is about 15 to high....
List them please. | |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | toddb,
People keep talking about state taxes are what drives the fishery. So the money I spend on lodging, gas, food is not income for someone? Which is taxed and some goes to the fishery. Multiply me by a few hundred and the money adds up. Maybe you should ask the chambers of commerce if they want our money. | |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | For muskies alone 20 is low. Look on some websites and see how many guys do special multi day guided trips on V. I don't think any names will be listed on this forum.
Millsie, the local guide spends that same $ you just paid him on the community
Edited by Flambeauski 9/9/2009 10:40 AM
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| 20 is low for out of state guides??? NO way. There are just a very few. | |
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Posts: 15
| I have been advised not to list any names since this is such a touchy subject. I will not list them in a private email either. | |
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Posts: 1237
Location: South Portsmouth, KY | ok. out of state guides gotta make a living too you know. for some like our guides down here in the south must go up north in the summer cause thats the only job that they got. They cant fish down here cause the water temps are to harmful to the fish. They still gotta bring in a source of income. | |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I see no harm in posting the known in and out of state guides and the waters they fish, the listing may get them a booking or two. Look at the views on this thread in a day and a half, over 3300, on the way to 4000 this afternoon. | |
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| so is it wrong that I choose to do business with an out of state business when I get replica's done??? Should I stay within my own state and get my mounts? Is it wrong that I drive to the next state to buy a truck every two years? Out of state business is part of life, it happens in every aspect of business...fishing is a business for some. For the others, the get mad, cry, pout, throw a fit when people are catching fish while they are at work. Then they use every excuse they can come up with as to why they don't like them and they will never speak the real truth.
Should I stop buying lures from guys in WI because I don't live there?
It's call SIMPLE BUSINESS. I know it's hard to understand. | |
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| So i have a business in Illinois. I get called to do work in Indiana for Indiana businesses. or even Wisconsin and Michigan. at the end of the year i do my taxes and pay my federal and state just like i am supposed to. should i tell my Indiana, Wisconsin, and Michigan dealers it is wrong for me to come there, please stop calling me????
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Location: Colorado/Birch Point, Lake Vermilion | No it's not wrong, it's a choice you make. That's the beauty of America you are free to make these choices and support whomever you choose. Even if someone else thinks it's wrong. | |
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Location: Twin Cities | Guest - 9/8/2009 12:59 PM
He becomes friends with some out of state guides who used his new hot lure on lakes like Mille Lacs and V.
Those lakes turn off, too much pressure on V and fish move out of weeds/rocks on Mille Lacs.
Do you really believe the pressure moved the fish out into the main basin of Mille Lacs? Couldn't have any thing to do with the booming bait populations and cool summers that have allowed large number of tulibee's to survive and thrive? Not to mention the extremely large perch hatches....
On the north end, maybe...or maybe the pressure moved the fish just beyond a cast length of your rod because they learned the noise of a trolling motor and the result and move away... | |
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Posts: 379
Location: Thief River Falls MN | Millesie,
My point is the first 40% of your 1K leaves without a trace. The first 40% of my income doesn't get a chance to leave MN, and I bet that more of my tax dollars get to the resource than from some out of state guide. Garanteed the guides are using their expenses as a write off also. Give your guide a 1099 and see what happens. I bet if half the guys guiding in MN would go legit as for tax purposes and such, half would disappear. Not saying the local economies don't appreciate your tourist dollars, just saying that some are getting away with something. | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | As I see it, not everytime a out of state muskie angler comes with a guide. If anything guides seem to be a stepping stone to bring new clients to your state. With that said I almost gurantee that those clients whom used this (out of state) guide, use them because either they are new to the water, won on a auction(donations/OM1,2), or have a great reputation, then they will eventually go on thier own and fish your lakes with out a guide. So I dont see why to complain so much when those out of state guys are truley bring you business for life. Once that guide is not needed by the clients do you think the clients no longer fish your lakes? Be careful what you wish for........ | |
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| You make a point Whored, but I don't see any resort owners falling over themselves to cater to the OOS musky folks and grab all that cash they supposedly bring with them. | |
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Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | ColoAndy - 9/9/2009 11:14 AM
No it's not wrong, it's a choice you make. That's the beauty of America you are free to make these choices and support whomever you choose. Even if someone else thinks it's wrong.
Thank god someone actually still believes in freedom!! | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | Guest, you have to be kidding. Look at Spring Bay Resort who is a MuskieFirst sponsor. They seem to be falling all over for the Out of State musky folks. Everywhere I have stayed in Minn, the resorts have been grateful for the musky business. Heck, even the Miltona Chamber of Commerce has ads in Musky Hunter Magazine promoting the musky fishing and the local resorts. | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | Just another point, no states would even stock muskies if they didn't bring revenue to the state. Look at Ohio, they've determined that the cost of stocking is financially worth the return and have stopped their musky program. Minnesota isn't stocking all of these musky lakes just for the locals to enjoy. They are also doing in to bring out of state reveune into Minnesota. | |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Do we have a specific example of the above tax and income issues? Does anyone know anyone who is self employed who DOESN'T deduct legal expenses? Do we know for sure ALL In State guides are reporting every dime in guide fees?
Guys, PLEASE keep to the points without pointing fingers. | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Guest, most of the out of state clients book an entire week or more, compaired to the in state people who may not stay there at all, maybe they buy a beer or two, three, four, or five, $20 with an sandwich. So I guess I am missing your point about resort owners not making money from out of state people, thats where they make most thier money. Now I cannot say for sure because I am not one, nor know one personally, but I can almost bet their biggest income comes from out of state fellows.
Edited by muskiewhored 9/9/2009 11:57 AM
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Brad Hoppe is a tax paying MN resident who has done very well for himself in the State of MN. Started a tackle company, marketed it well (advertising, a tax write-off), pumped money back into his business, branched out into DVD's, sets up huge booths at all of the shows to promote his product and his guide service, updates his website to keep it fresh and works with others in the industry to grow the sport in general. Not to mention promoting the Alexandria area in general, bringing money to the community.
Gregg Thomas, Mike Hulbert, Lee Tauchen, Chad Cain, Steve Genson, etc are doing the same. They aren't big names by accident. They are doing a better job promoting their business. I know I would rather hire a local, but if I can shake a dude's hand and talk 'skies with him at a show for 15 minutes, watch their TV appearances and read their articles, I will probably book them instead and not feel bad.
My first sales job I was complaining that I never finished 1st in the company. My boss says, "You know why Richard beats you every month? Because he's better than you." Sad fact, but it's true. Out of state guides have a tougher time in a localized area and they STILL are out-booking many local guides. Because they are promoting their business better. | |
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Posts: 454
| I guess I am not fishing the area that we are speaking of (western/central mn) all that often, but I am making an assumption that this (pressure) is not any worse than what the metro lakes feel every day from guides and non guides alike. Yes, lake Minnetonka is a big lake, but it gets hammered daily and still pumps out fish............many smaller lakes get abused as well. The number of fisherman targeting this species is growing and I do admit it can be frustrating when many of the spots you worked hard for and found are now being used by other fisherman (guides, and non guides alike).
Many rookie or (newbie) anglers are out there right now. Many lack proper equipment because the either can't afford it, or they are just unaware as to what is needed to properly fish for, handle, and release a muskie. I know of several gentlemen on particular lake that I have seen on the water 3-4 times a week for the entire summer. They did not have a proper net, release tools, or gear to be fishing muskie, but they had a love for the sport and were out there enjoying it. I have done my best to educate these gentlemen, and they have been receptive. I am sure however, that there are many more fishermen/women like these on lakes who are doing "damage" to the resource. Most guides that I know are very protective of this species and will do their best to ensure their survival.
If someone wants to troll open water and "kill" fish that is a separate issue. That is an irresponsible angler, guide or no guide. Irresponsible anglers hurt our lakes and muskie populations.
Just my two cents and probably worth about the same | |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Once again, a core point here is using a public resource to make money. This isn't about private business or products.
Shouldn't only the "owners" of that resource, the MN public be allowed to make money from it? I think that is a very valid point. Apparently many of you do not.
The other side of this is very obviously seeing pressure on MN waters drastically increasing, and it's causing rumblings among MN anglers. The quality of the fishing experience declines when the amount of users of a finite resource ever increases. Some of you thing that it's selfish for MN anglers to feel that way. I suppose it is in a way.
But isn't also selfish for somebody using a public resource to make a living to think that they have unlimited access to it?
There has to be a line between use and expliotaion when you start talking about public resources. Especially when you have a limited amount of that resource and an ever growing demand for it's enjoyment/use.
In MN we have the Boundary Wasters Canoe Area, BWCA. To ensure a quality experience the usage is limited. You have to apply for permits to visit and work there. It provides a non-congested place for anglers/campers to enjoy.
Are we headed that way?? When will the pressure on these lakes become to much? When will the public (MN anglers) demand something be done?
What are the alternatives? Out of state fishing from Memorial day to Labor day only? Applying for permits to fish in one "Zone" of the state per year whether your a resident or not?
At some point the gents in MN that do the leg-work for improving and expanding this fishery are going to ask why they are doing it. How much time and effort can you put into something that isn't giving you the return you are expecting?
In all seriousness, you do the work to improve your quality of fishing in your State. When the quality starts to decline no matter how much work you do, what next?? Keep beating your head against the wall?
Something to think about. The FM chapter of MI has been funding stocking of a new lake for several years now. We (and also the Hugh Becker foundation) are fully funding the stocking, 100%. Is it selfish of use to never want guides to show up and that lake? Or is it entirely within reason to be disgruntled if that happens?
We all gotta live together here, and something has to change.
JS
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Location: Hudson, WI | Darn right. Lots of pressure everywhere, and it isn't going away. Something we all have to deal with.
Tony, are your students at gym class or something? | |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | John, I hear ya that it sucks. But this happened in western Wisconsin and the Hayward Lakes years ago. Stocking still takes place and the lakes are coming back around again. Not for nothing, but I buy an out of state license for MN for $40 every year and I fish it 5 times a year, maybe. The thought of additional permits sounds like communist Russia to me. | |
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Posts: 231
| I've been reading this thread, and have noticed alot of good points on both sides. With that being said, I get up to MN once a year to fish (Cass Lake), and really enjoy it. I'm from Ill & don't use a guide. There is guide at the resort we stay at (Wishbone), who is really good, and knows the Cass Chain well. If I was looking for a guide, I would have no problem using him, but.... I have to be honest, I would also have no problem using someone along the lines of a... Mike Hulbert, Tony Grant, or Steve Jonesi. It doesn't matter to me where their from, it's about that fact that I think they're GOOD! This also includes different states/country. From Ontario to Indiana, If these guys were available, I would hire them. This is nothing against "local guides", as I know there are alot of good ones, it's just who are you comfortable with in what state? JMHO.
Chas | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Pressure will only get worse the bigger the sport becomes. Point is: its not any guide making your pressure worse, its TV, magazine, News, ADVERTISING. People wanted to make this sport huge, and this "problem" is what you will get with the resources available to them- is just not enough for everybody. Blame a suit not a fellow angler: the suit only wants your money the angler wants your friendship. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'At some point the gents in MN that do the leg-work for improving and expanding this fishery are going to ask why they are doing it. How much time and effort can you put into something that isn't giving you the return you are expecting?'
That goes directly to the point I made earlier about volunteers. If you are expending that effort and money as volunteer conservationists (very commendable, by the way), and your DNR and the general public sees it as such.... and then that changes because the end result is unexpected and people show up to fish you personally do not approve of; at what point do you then become 'competition' to the stated goals of fishery management in Minnesota by doing all you can to drive off out of state pressure? If you volunteer to stock a public resource, and the State of MN decides not to restrain, license, or otherwise control the Guiding population, I'd say yes, it's unreasonable to be disgruntled.
As lambeau said, you can exert 'social pressure', but the State Fisheries folks may not take that as well as you would hope, and defer any other new waters...for good. | |
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| Lunch actually and this teaching is really cutting into my muskie fishing.....Sounds like I should be in the Bemidji Area
Only joking gentlemen, don't take it seriously......the last thing I need are jet skiers surrounding me in November......again, only joking.
I know that it must be frustrating to work hard to get a lake stocked only to have it bombarded when the fish population peaks and big fish are starting to be caught regularly. I just don't know how you are ever going to prevent it.
Anyway, I will be out in the metro with the 100 other muskie boats chasing them on Tonka at some point this week. Good luck to all. | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | I now totally understand why god created women.... to keep us guys from arguing with eachother over personal feelings. Just think if it was all us men in this world, beeting eachother with tree branches, arguing over who cuts thier grass better, just complete chaos! | |
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Posts: 135
| I don't think that anyone on here thinks that there should not be interstate commerce, just that if one is making money from a states resources that it's not unreasonable to think that they should in some way pay into that state's resource pool. Saying that guides contribute their share to this by buying gas, food, lodging and paying the taxes on those just doesn't cover it, IMO. The locals who are fishing are doing the same thing, but in addition, they are paying income and property taxes.
If you travel alot to earn money in other states and that state or municipality's dept of revenue comes after you like they did me for working in other states, then you just have to deal with that. Anyone who has ever dealt with tax issues knows, they may be right, they may be wrong, but if they decide you owe them, it's on you to prove that you don't Every state has different tax laws regarding this, and different levels of interest in going after folks who do travel to make a living. I was pretty peeed after getting tax bills from other states, but hey, it's right there in the law books in Black and White. FYI, I wasn't double taxed, the taxes I paid on CA, NY, etc income didn't get taxed in IN.
Specific to the topic of making money guiding in another state, that state's taxpayers have paid the vast majority of cost in establishing and maintaining that resource, which I believe is reflected somewhat in the fact that out-of-state licenses for hunting and fishing are more $$ than those for residents. I don't think, however that a guide making money off of that resource is covered, per-se, by that difference in cost, nor is is in the spirit of that principle, IMO. It just makes sense that if it cost $$ to establish and maintain a resource that if you want to use that resource to make a living, then you need to pay into the cost of maintaining it. If you're a guide and you think you're paying your fair share by just buying local gas and burgers, you're not, IMO. Tourists are doing that, and so are folks who aren't even fishing, but without the impact to the state resource that a guide is having. Do I blame a guide for wanting to hit the best place to have success guiding musky, hell no! I'd sure do it if I were a guide. I would take my medicine, however, if the state decided to recoup some of their cost since I was making part of my living off of the resource that they established and maintain. Worral's idea about a license such as a captain's license would cover it nicely, IMO. It would make the guides cover insurance and liability, and weed out the people who aren't serious or professional. If a resort wants to have their kid guide, hey no problem as long as they meet the requirements and pay their fee. Just like fishing license, it could cost more for out-of-state guides than for in-state. If the powers that be start to believe that there is a large enough amount of $$ being made commercially off of their public resource in any state by locals or by non-locals, there will be an adjustment, you can be sure of that.
For those who think this is no big deal, take another look at the post by "Guest"
I think that this is where it could be headed, big bucks are like big musky, not that many of them, and while there are more now than before, not nearly enough to support a big influx from out of town hunters and still have a decent a safe experience for the local hunters whose tax dollars and efforts have gone towards improving that resource. Now if you added to the quote below the concept that not only were tons of people now utilizing the resource, but lots of folks who are making money off of that resource without really paying into it like the local folks are doing, I believe you'd have a pretty similar scenario there.
guest - 9/8/2009 4:46 PM
Musky23 -
Lets for arguments sake say you are a deer hunter. How would you feel if some out of state people, came in and started guiding deer on public lands in IL?
How would you feel if they started hunting the land you have been hunting for years?
What if they all talked to each other everyday about where the bucks have been moving, and when you walk out to your stand one afternoon there are three of them in the same woods chasing the same buck that you have been scouting for weeks?
Now how would you feel if pretty soon there were less and less bucks to shoot? That is where this is going.
Summing up, I'm all for guides and whoever else being able to travel anywhere they want in this great land of ours, but I think that a guides license with a professional sized fee is appropriate, and it should be more $$ for the out of state guides, but not prohibitively more, kind of like the difference , percentage-wise in out-of-state vs. in-state licenses. I bet most guides might welcome this as a way to better sift out the amateurs and wanna-be's. Then again, I could be wrong....
Edited by whit65 9/9/2009 12:40 PM
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| Anyone want to go fish MN this weekend? I have a boat... | |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
The Ducks Unlimited Volunteers in North Dakota lobbied to have out of season hunters have a later starting date so they would have more of an opportunity to hunt in un-crowded conditions.
Being a volunteer doesn't mean you don't have expectations of how your donation of time and money will turn out.
Who would volunteer money to something that had an end result which they didn't approve of, or for which they thought was a waste of effort? (not meaning what we've done has been a waste, but you can't expect people to give and not be happy with what the end results, they will stop giving sooner or later.)
JS | |
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| Something to think about. The FM chapter of MI has been funding stocking of a new lake for several years now. We (and also the Hugh Becker foundation) are fully funding the stocking, 100%. Is it selfish of use to never want guides to show up and that lake? Or is it entirely within reason to be disgruntled if that happens?
i'm glad you brought this up, John, as i think it speaks to one of the core issues.
who "owns" the resource in any particular area?
let's use this one lake as a microcosm of the issue in general:
the lake you describe has been stocked entirely by private donations, no public money at all. at the same time, the lake itself is public waters. are the fish a public resource even though they were bought with private monies since they were placed into a public lake?
in fact, this lake has been on my radar for a few years because it's close to my family place and because of what FM-MI has been doing...
so, can i catch a muskie on that lake or will it upset the people who paid for those fish?
what if someone who's a member of the club decided to do some guiding and chose to take clients there? is that okay?
what if someone who's a MN resident but not a club member decided to guide it?
what if someone from out-of-state guided clients there?
my point is: where do you draw the line? don't try, because you can't.
at the same time i can understand how frustrating it can be to develop something good and get the sense that others are using it without "earning" it or giving back enough to the resource.
the bottom line is that unless you're raising fish in a private lake, muskies and muskie waters will always be a public resource available for people to use in lots and lots of ways. heck, we're discussing whether or not it's "right" for guides to make money on the resource and in all actuality it's technically legal to harvest one muskie every single day of the open season...
so i think instead of banging your head on the wall, the next steps are twofold:
1) do everything possible to protect the resource with size limits, education, etc.
2) be mentally and emotionally prepared for the fact that others are going to use the resource and may not be as invested in creating/preserving it.
and for you and you and you out there reading this who have a picture of a giant MN muskie hanging on your wall, ask yourself: how have i helped preserve and advance this wonderful _public_ resource?
we can't all be lobbying the legislature, putting minnows in a rearing pond, or driving a stocking truck to the lake...but for the price of ONE LURE, a donation to an MI stocking fund can help support the guys who are doing that and put a couple of fish into one of these lakes.
*** and i happen to know from personal contact with a fair number of both resident and out-of-state guides in MN that they are in fact doing their part - in fact many of them give way more than most people.
direct monetary donations, appearing as speakers at MI clubs for a low fee (which draws in people who donate to the raffles), donating free guide trips to fund-raisers, donating products from their lure companies to fund-raisers, educating clients about safe fish-handling, etc., etc., etc.
how many of you have won a trip or a lure or a dvd at an MI raffle? many of them are sold to the clubs at cost or completely donated.
it's a horrible misrepresentation to generalize them as uncaring consumers.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If one lobbies for control of a specific public resource and is successful through legislation in gaining a benefit others cannot equally enjoy, you are no longer 'volunteering' in the sense of the word intended when those who 'volunteer' look for public approval...one is attempting to create a resource to be available to 'outsiders' only when it's approved by the folks who 'funded' the direct effort-- which may run afoul of your states expressed management goals, not to mention the fact we all pay for the MN DNR Fisheries folks (and mine) to function, and without the cooperation of the DNR the fish would not be stocked at all no matter who pays for them.
From the MN website:
http://news.exploreminnesota.com/category/fishing-report/ (brought to you by Minnesota Tourism)
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fisheries/index.html (a goodly portion of the DNR budgets in all stares comes from federal Excise taxes we ALL pay if we buy fishing gear or boats, etc) The Section of Fisheries is responsible for managing the diverse fisheries in Minnesota's 5,400 game fish lakes and 15,000 miles of streams and rivers. Staff size: 320 workers (302 in field and regional offices; 18 in St. Paul headquarters).'Annual budget: $22-$30 million, most of which comes from fishing license fees and a federal excise tax on fishing and boating equipment.'
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fisheries/muskiepike_2020.html
Fisheries management of Minnesota's lakes, rivers, and streams is based on public input as well as an understanding of fish communities and the best available science. While this plan emphasizes muskellunge and northern pike management, the Section of Fisheries Management's mission statement is "to conserve and manage Minnesota's aquatic resources and associated fish communities for their intrinsic values and long term ecological, commercial, and recreational benefits to the people of Minnesota."
Note the term 'commercial'. I bet that means tourism which means full resorts and busy guides. If it doesn't, perhaps someone can tell me what it does mean.
Not that I disagree the pressure sucks for you guys in WC and NW MN, I'm sure it does because you are not conditioned to it yet. You have 790,000 acres on 116 water bodies managed for muskie, and our State has 790 water bodies. We can spread 'em out better when looking at the entire picture although we don't have the sheer acreage. You have some MASSIVE lakes and river systems that take pressure well, but those don't seem to be the deepest portion of the subject here....it's the smaller lakes most of the conversation seems to be about. Sort of like my favorite over here, Pelican. For years Pelican had the highest creeled hours chasing muskie in the State, believe it or not. I guided there during the early tough years, and suddenly when the lake grew 'hot' from tons of volunteer and state funded stocking, LOTS of guides showed up. Now that the stocking has ceased and the muskies don't literally jump in the boat, only a couple guides work the lake. But that didn't stop the ridiculous harvest numbers there, the last creel I have access to showed a HUGE number of Muskies over 40" harvested. That's why Norm and Mike got busy and spearheaded a 50" limit effort there...and got it done. The 50" limit is now under attack, and guess from whom? Local Muskie anglers and resorts, thinking that a trophy fishery will not bring in tourism ( and you guys find it brings too many, which is right?). Hard to win, this battle.
Excellent post, lambeau.
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Location: Hudson, WI | John, what percentage of these lakes you are talking about are 100% privately stocked? | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
It's definately not a black and white issue. While I agree that in the purist sense a volunteer gives without thought to self-reward or accolades. I also feel that we aren't going to volunteer our time and money with the same enthusiasm if we feel our efforts are taken for granted or being capitalized on by others who really don't have a right to. MHO of course.
There were strings attatched to our stocking project which had to be met by the DRN and Tribal fisheries dept. The tribe cannot spear these muskies and they have to adhere to any MN length and possesion laws. The DNR has to stock it as long as we have money, they can't stop without a drastic cause. So I guess we didn't really volunteer, we did what we did with condiotions.
Will that be the future of MI stocking monies? New stockings can't be used for commercial gain? (not saying I'm pushing for that) You have to be a MN resident to fish them? I don't know, that sounds very extreme, but if we're footing the bill, are we within reason to attach clauses like that?
We'll see what happens, all I know is that right or wrong, a lot of MN anglers and guides are starting to feel like they are being pushed off the waters we "own" as residents.
Maybe this will just pass on it's own.
JS
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | IMHO the issue probably will pass, as it has everywhere else this has happened, but it will probably pass sorta like a kidney stone. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Moltisanti;
I'm refering to one lake. | |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | If you start thinking that you "own" the lake as a resident and you should be able to decide who gets to use a resource and for what purpose you start falling right into the same type of mentality as a group like No More Muskies. These are folks who don't want muskies stocked on "their" lakes. The "entitlement" attitude of some posters is walking a VERY slippery slope. | |
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| These out of state guides must be doing a pretty good job catching fish on "your" lakes. Just as an FYI...of the 5 non-resident guides that were previously listed...one left in early August to teach, and another didn't even get up there until late July. So, the entire muskie system is out of whack because of three and a half guides? | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | You can do whatever you want if it PRIVATE property. Thats the only way your going to get what you want. | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | sworrall - 9/9/2009 1:54 PM
IMHO the issue probably will pass, as it has everywhere else this has happened, but it will probably pass sorta like a kidney stone. :)
Hilarious! | |
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Location: New Hope MN | john skarie - 9/9/2009 12:07 PM
Once again, a core point here is using a public resource to make money. This isn't about private business or products.
Shouldn't only the "owners" of that resource, the MN public be allowed to make money from it? I think that is a very valid point. Apparently many of you do not.
They are making their money off their knowledge not the fish. a lump of coal is simply a rock. Without knowledge it stays a rock. With knowledge it can be turned into many 'things". | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | "Once again, a core point here is using a public resource to make money. This isn't about private business or products.
Shouldn't only the "owners" of that resource, the MN public be allowed to make money from it? I think that is a very valid point. Apparently many of you do not."
Who proffits from tournaments? The residents? I dont think so. People are bashing out of state guides, yet Tounrys bring in hundreds at a time and make more money. Simply living somewhere doesnt give "ownership" to anything. Buy the land, buy the fish, pay taxes on that property, and its yours. If you "owned" it you would be paying taxes on that property also, not just your home. Your property taxes not only go to the DNR but also pay for schools, law enforcement, fire fighters, etc... do you own the fire truck, and the gym, and the library?
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Location: Hudson, WI | Guest,
According to a lot of people on this thread, that is a good thing. Maybe now that guide won't drive 1000 miles to spend his hard earned dollars in Minnesota. Neither will his clients. Problem solved........ | |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | There seems to be about 10 to 15 different topics being discussed here, most of which spin off of two main ones - giving back to the resource and pressure. So I'd like to create another tangent off of the pressure topic.
As we look to add new waters in the state, we know the main topics that opposition will bring up. We can easily address some of them. But one common point of opposition as of late is boating pressure that it will create on "their" lake. As we can see here, musky anglers are frustrated with the always increasing pressure on existing musky waters. So when looking to stock new waters, how are we going to address this? If opposition is dead set against it because of pressure, how are we going to convince them that stocking muskies in this new lake is going to be beneficial to the water which they currently enjoy?
When I look at the Gull Lake situation from a couple years ago, the opposition was generally either uneducated or trying to twist the truth in order to get more people against the stocking. The people in favor of the stocking were generally very straight forward, presenting factual evidence and being very professional about it. I think this is the only way to go about it and be seen in the public eye as a group that has the best interest of the resource in mind. Trying to convince the opposition that pressure won't be anything to worry about would be misleading. Reading this thread is evidence of that. So how do we approach this topic with the opposition? Instead of bickering amongst each other, we need to work together to figure out how to address these kinds of issues. We need to learn how to work with the opposition to reach common ground. But how do we do that is the question that needs to be answered so we can actually reach those goals.
Aaron | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | We should all start digging a new lake together that boarders all of us so its equally another argument for the future. I will start with a shovel in my back yard tonight. Meet you all in MN sometime in 2025. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Musky 23, everyone in MN "owns" our resources. It's not a school of thought, it's reality.
We share that resource with others. It's not a right to be able to hunt and fish in MN, it's a privalege bestowed upon you by our state.
There are areas of the West where you can't hunt if you aren't a resident. In Alaska you can't hunt without hiring a guide or oufitter if you aren't a resident. There are many states that have rules which apply to non-residents that do not apply to residents in regards to public resources.
The fact is that it doesn't belong to everyone, and it's the choice of each individual state as to what extent non-residents can utilize it's resources.
JS
Edited by john skarie 9/9/2009 3:53 PM
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| So JS thats the way you want it? - My family "feeds" most of the deer and pheasants near a large public hunting area in Iowa - I guess these are "our" deer and pheasants - NO non-residents??? come on seriously.. | |
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| I guess you haven't tried to get on private land to hunt deer and pheasant in Iowa. Good luck Oh that's right your family does own private land. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said no non-residents. I've fished with non-residents more days this year than I have with MN boys. People from WI and ND.
But to think that a state doesn't have the right to regulate non-resident usasge of resources is ridiculous, which is what many of you are trying to say.
JS
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| Yep 5000 acres of the cleanist farmers you will ever see so not much hunting for me on family land- but have killed hundreds of birds on th public land that ajoins...Anyway.. my point was all sates should just lock down their unique hunting and fishing opportunities? | |
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| john skarie - 9/9/2009 3:47 PM
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said no non-residents. I've fished with non-residents more days this year than I have with MN boys. People from WI and ND.
But to think that a state doesn't have the right to regulate non-resident usasge of resources is ridiculous, which is what many of you are trying to say.
JS
Is there a single public lake in the US that allows residents to fish but not non-residents? Or set different limits once you buy an out of state licenses? (Serious question)
Edited by IAJustin 9/9/2009 3:53 PM
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Location: West Chicago, IL | Regulate based on what? The DNR determining that a resourse is being harmed by over utilization or a few locals who don't like others fishing "their" lakes. If the DNR thought the fishery was being harmed, they'd regulate. Sorry to be on such a soap box about this but the lakes around where I live get WAY WAY more pressure than any lake in Minnesota and yet we still have healthy viable fisheries and we still catch fish. This whole argument is not based on facts at all. We'd all like to fish on lakes where there is less fishing and boating pressure but it's not the case. The popularity of this sport has done a lot of good things for Minnesota and now you have to take the good with the bad. Do you honestly think the Minnesota DNR would have the stocking program it currently has if there wasn't a high utilization of the resource? If muskie fishing wasn't popular, you'd all have A LOT less lakes that were stocked and the fishing wouldn't be anywhere what it is for anyone. Fishing pressure is cyclical. The facts are that for most species, the people fishing over the past 10 years has declined significantly. Muskies are an exception to that trend. Maybe we should all just be happy that the sport has grown and more and new lakes are being stocked everywhere (except Ohio). So many outdoor sports are dying out due to lack of interest and the amount of things available for kids and young adults to do. If musky fishing keeps its popularity and it is a reason kids get back involed in the outdoors, I think it's a great thing and hope to see all of these boats out there in the future. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Since federal excise taxes we ALL pay and resident AND non resident licenses fund a goodly portion of the MNDNR's budget, and since the MNDNR is most assuredly lobbied hard by Tourism, I bet they won't be real excited about an exclusionary policy proposal. Just a guess.
And, I'm sure everyone already knows the privilege to hunt and fish is extended to residents as well as non residents by the State, and can be taken away by the State from both or either, but not without incredibly solid political and social footing. Ask us up here in Northern WI, we were educated in a heck of a hurry back in the early 80's. Only one portion of our population/society has the RIGHT to fish and hunt, and it ain't me. | |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Scott, you're telling me an Illinois guide sat down with his clients and talked about emptying the beer cooler to fit muskies in there and they were serious. They had to be joking or I am completely out of touch with reality (which I'm not ruling out).
I can remember Miltona back in '05. I used to fish it with Joe "Slim"Renner and there was NO pressure whatsoever. Now, there is "too much pressure" and didn't he catch a 56 and a 54 in the same week this year? Have any of you Minnesotans ever been to Deer or Bone in Polk County? Those lakes have been POUNDED by Wisconsin and Minnesota residents for 40 years. Even with spearing, the quality and quantity is still there. Sure, the fish aren't where they used to be, but the cream always rises to the top. Change tactics or get left behind. WI residents dealt with pressure long before MN residents had to deal with it at all.
And as far as resources go, didn't the first batches of MN stocked fish come from the LCO/Bone Lake strain out of WI? Waconia and Mille Lacs were stocked with WI fish without question. So, if your arguments hold true, then those big ones caught out of Mille Lacs 2 years ago were MY FISH! I want them back or stricken from the records because they were MINE! | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Wow very interesting, actually most interesting thing I read in 150 posts. | |
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| .... Sorry wrong spot
Edited by Scottie Thomas 9/9/2009 4:28 PM
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| This is just dumb, nothing more than an argument over what's mine and what's yours with a whole lot of jealousy thrown in for good measure.
By the standards some of you are following, Brent Favre should not be allowed to QB your Queens because he's an out-of-stater. Oh, wait, Brent's okay but you don't like the non-resident guides because they didn't contribute anything to the development of the Minnesota muskie fishery. And Brent donated to the construction of the Metrodome? It's the same argument, only different circumstances. | |
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| MUSKY 23
I dont see your point about "do you think Minnesota would have the stocking program it has now if it wasnt for high utilization" apart from two how many new lakes have we got in the last 10 years???,,6-7 years ago people hardly knew Minnesota existed has a muskie destination,,99% of our muskie lakes were designated/chosen loooooong before the boom. DNR has always tried to stock muskies 1 per littorial acre and still do,,do you know that weve actually 'lost' lakes there are tiger lakes that dont get stocked anymore because they dont produce 'trophy/quality fishing" Minnesota DNR has always said they manage the muskie has a trophy species and stock accordingly,, Im not seeing the policy change that you refer to???? | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Joe musky - 9/7/2009 10:27 PM
Been reading the forums for quite some time, and finally decided to join the ranks.
There was a thread that was pulled on here earlier today that caught my interest. It was about some guide conflicts. I know the guide accused, and he is a great guide, fisherman, and guy. The post honestly raises some interesting questions.
I'll try to pose this as a non-argumentative topic, however it may turn that way once the internet brawlers take hold.
There has always been some localism in fishing. And since the sport is growing by leaps and bounds, there is definitely going to be some tension when fisherman and guides collide. Maybe jokes, maybe fights, who knows but it's bound to happen.
I've heard of pranks, vandalism, fights, and even guns being drawn to ward off foreign guides.
As a Wisconsin turned Minnesotan, I've noticed the guides are blossoming like Asian beetles. Many of which have out of state tags on their rigs. So I guess the question is, do you hire an out of stater or a local guide and why? Should there be a fee for out of towner guides to work in another state? And should the non-local guides show respect the local guides? And if so, how?
It is obvious, MN has worked hard to maintain a quality fishery over the last several decades, and the inconsideration from guides with no specific ties to an area may do nothing but harm it I fear.
These are obviously some of the thoughts that popped into my head when looking at some related posts. Do you all feel the same or not?
Hope I'm not crossing any forum guidelines, Like I said, I'm new to posting.
Joe Albrecht
Just incase you all forgot the original post. Take a deep breath, read. Now what the heck are we talking about now? LOL! Wow a day went by already. | |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hi Everyone,
In state, out of state, guide, no guide...in all honesty, does it really make a difference? I will agree that Guides who promote their business can and do bring in more people (both locally and out of state) to fish for these great fish, and I do feel that it all adds to the increased pressure we see on our lakes..A good guide can turn a person on to fishing for these critters, and all it takes is one fish to do it.
Is there a way around it? I don't know...the resource is limited and the sport is growing...right now, I see a massive demand for spots to fish and a very limited supply to meet the demand.
As stated, In MN, through various efforts of MI and other organizations, the addition of the 8 lakes to our waters will help spread out the people...but we must also keep in mind that through all that acreage as stated, it has been said that 90% of the fish use only 10% of the water. That 10% is what everyone is looking to be on for their fish....
To me the main issue is one of people being frustrated that the waters they "own" (which I think is a bad way to state it) is they are seeing more and more people on them and there is nothing they can do about it....it's where this sport is heading right now...but I don't feel it is due to the out-of-state guides...it is just more people taking interest in this great sport.
What I DO see happening is many people getting frustrated with not catching fish, not seeing fish in some cases, and finally just giving up on the sport after some time... The bad thing (for me) is, I feel myself going this way, where the pleasure to be out there is not as much fun due to how much tougher the fishing has become. I will never give up or throw in that towel....it's been in my blood for 30 years....others will, though and I do feel the sport will see a plateau at some point.
What it (the pressure, etc) does tell me, though, is that I NEED TO FIND NEW METHODS, NEW LOCATIONS, AND NEW PATTERNS for the waters I choose to fish. Am I happy about that?....not really...it means more work for me, but there are still fish to be caught...it just has to be by different means. Troublesome part is time on the water to try those experiments and see if something pops. Find that key and you find the fish... Then, when everyone starts to catch on, the process starts again.
Steve | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | Hooker,
Simply, the state wouldn't continue to stock fish if there wasn't a high demand for the fish. You don't see them stocking carp do you? Look at Ohio, they've stopped stocking muskies due to the fact that the state doesn't feel like they're getting their bang for their buck. Your DNR had the fore sight to see what they could create, they didn't stock the muskies in all these lakes just for fun. While the amount they stock per acre has stayed the same, they obviously have stocked a lot of new lakes over the past 20 years. They did this so people would come and fish for muskies, not so they could just destroy the walleye population...hahaha | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | I am confused, how do you blame a guide for all the pressure on your lakes? They have 1 BOAT, with maybe 2 other guys on it. 3 people!! You not fishing a puddle are you? The lake is over there ---------->
Edited by muskiewhored 9/9/2009 4:47 PM
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| So let's say you charge the out of state guides a license fee that the resident guides don't have to pay. What changes?? Short of a marginal amount of revenue that could potentialy be used for stocking, you still have tons of out of state anglers using that resource, and likely coming back again and again to fish those lakes. Where is the benefit? It sems to me the arguments all boil down to "too many people fishing"... I don't see how that's going to change even if one has to be a resident of MN to guide there.
You can't put the cat back in the bag. MN has the best trophy muskie fishing opportunities in the U.S. Everyone knows this, and that's why everyone fishes there. No matter what we do withour home waters here in IL, for example, they will NEVER rival those of MN, because the lake ecosystems simply aren't the same. The same goes for WI, and all the other states where muskies have been stocked. | |
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Location: Hudson, WI | VMS...a Minnesota resident who has the right idea. Post of the day. | |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | That's why we ALL have to continue to support Minnesota and their efforts in stocking. I live in Illinois and donate money to stcoking funds in Minnesota. I'm certain that Wisconsin is going to start becoming a much better state going forward now that their DNR has seen what has happened in Minnesota but it will take time. In the mean time, we all need to keep supporting the efforts to get more lakes (everywhere) stocked and the efforts to put in higher lenght limits. While the fish may be more pressured now, they are all still there and can still be caught if you just figure out how! | |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | I've decided to move to Utah and fish with Sorno..........problem solved!
Dan O | |
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Location: Oswego, IL | I would also like to point out some of these "out of state" guys going fishing on a trip to "your" lake may also only fish there for 1-2 weeks out of a year. In state (resident) you buy your license and you fish every single day as long as possible. What really hurts(pressures) the lake more? The guy who pays more for a out of state license, and fishes 1-2 weeks a year there, or the guy who gets a resident cost license and pounds the lake everyday. Its your own residents crouding your own lake IMO. Seems to me they make more off non residents for your stockings
Edited by muskiewhored 9/9/2009 5:07 PM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | dtaijo174;
Your point is what exactly?
To those that think guides don't put all that much pressure on lakes, ask the guides and see what kind of answer they give you.
How many times have we read on these internet sites how so and so is the hardest working guide, fishing as long as it takes to put fish in the boat. Many guides will brag about fishing 12 or more hours a day. They will camp on the "hot" spots and take them over (I've seen this more than once.) They bring clients to lakes, who then learn them and come back themselves. They tell other guides about the "new" lake and soon you have 3-4 boats pounding on a lake, along with the clients.
Then ask yourself why they leave to hit new waters?? What is the answer they will give you? It's because they can't catch fish there like they used to anymore. The pressure changes the fishing success.
Now, that is legal. Guides have a right to make a living, just like you and me.
But the guide "culture" has changed, and if you don't think they bring a trememdous amount of pressure to a lake then you aren't paying attention.
So don't just dismiss the observations of those that are seeing this.
It may whining, and wishing we had the lakes to ourselves to many of you.
But in the end there are things happening that deserve attention, and maybe need to be changed.
JS | |
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| Moltisanti - 9/9/2009 4:06 PM
Have any of you Minnesotans ever been to Deer or Bone in Polk County? Those lakes have been POUNDED by Wisconsin and Minnesota residents for 40 years. Even with spearing, the quality and quantity is still there. Sure, the fish aren't where they used to be, but the cream always rises to the top. Change tactics or get left behind. WI residents dealt with pressure long before MN residents had to deal with it at all.
Moltisanti--Very good point. I have a place on Deer and as you stated the pressure is heavy on any given day. Take a stroll through the parking lot at the launch and you will see more MN plates than WI. Often see rigs parked their belonging to guides from MN. It's just the way it goes.....Do I wish there was less pressure on Deer, for sure, but it sure doesn't mean it ruins my day when I am out fishing.
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| It may whining, and wishing we had the lakes to ourselves to many of you.
nothing wrong with wishing for that, it's something we all want on the lake.
of course, i've heard someone say that MN is now paying the price of talking a bit too loudly or hosting a few too many fishermen in their boats on the "quiet" lakes. no amount of promises from someone will keep the cat in the bag once you take someone to the lake...and there's a lot of that going on in west-central MN, isn't there?
at a minimum, we've all got to share a limited resource, so we've all got to make sure to respect and care for it.
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| Perhaps rather than mistreating people for the good of muskie, these folks can treat others with care and it will trickle down to the fish.... | |
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Posts: 21
| Moltisanti and guest.
First off i know the pressure on Bone is nowhere near what it used to be. My fishing partners cabin is on the lake (his home water) The people chasing those fish have moved to diferent spots. the high 30 and low 40inchers on that lake are not as appealing anymore. I think that is the topic at hand. people following the bite and piliging everything along the way. Also those lakes are 30-30 mins from the twin cities. They are the home waters of alot of TWC people. And i assume, or hope that even though those are wisc waters, people from the twin cities to contribute to some funding and success.
The story about the guys in the bar. I dont know. They sounded serious. I sat at the bar next to them for about a half hour and listended to all sorts of distrubing stuff.
I dont care where you come from, i just dont like these bite chasers. Also i dont think alot of MN fisherman contribute enough either. After all, most muskie baits cost more than the license that allows you to fish for a year. | |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | mw, I am not disagreeing with you at all...I think you are correct for the most part, especially on those smaller waters where there are a multitude of properties, and some of which harbor guys/gals like us. No doubt having those out-of-stater's coming to northern MN to fish, regardless of what species they go for, is $$ for that community. By and large that is what northern MN and other states are all about....brings in a bunch of money, which is great for the state, but also as has been stated does not trickle down to the fisheries (in our specific case, muskies). Would it be nice if some of that did? You bet!! but we also need to keep in mind that our fisheries must contain a balanced population, or things really get out of whack! We cannot just keep adding more and more fish to the waters we have and call it good....that would be a very BAD way of managing our lakes.
Sure...it'd be nice to pull up to any decent looking spot and see or catch a fish...but it's not gonna happen!! It's not feasible, nor is it sustainable, nor would I think it to be a healthy, balanced fishery. I think one major thing that is not thought about here is that (I feel) MN stocking program is not solely there for creating more availability of fish...it is to sustain the populations that already exist. We didn't get big fish in waters by overpopulating them...we did it through a very well planned stocking program. Glasses raised for those involved for getting it done, and getting it done well!!
Now...a question to pose to all of you (a brainstorm/brain-fart, whatever you want to call it)... It's always nice to dream about getting more fisheries and help to maintain our stocking programs, so I will put this out there as a "carrot" so to speak. What if....bigger retailers, online stores etc were to increase the price of each of their muskie items (lures in particular) by, oh...say $1.00 that was specifically set aside for stocking purposes in the state...would you go for it, even in this economy, and with the prices we pay for lures, etc to enjoy the sport? (No doubt, much easier said than done...the logistics of this could be a bit boggling...)
I ask this because so many people have mentioned getting $$ flowing for helping to replenish the source and very little $$ go toward the fisheries themselves (license fees and some tax-payer monies). Just as an example, MN has a few different venues located throughout the state that this could work: Reeds, Gander Mountain, Online companies (Pequot Lakes), Blue Ribbon Bait, and various smaller stores that sell lures. Each has some sort of Regional aspect to them to which the monies raised in those areas could be donated directly to stocking efforts. This way, those from out of state who come to the area to fish will have a positive impact on the fishery. Just a thought to ponder...
Steve | |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | GOTONE - 9/9/2009 4:58 PM
I've decided to move to Utah and fish with Sorno..........problem solved!
Dan O
Careful, Dan. Sorno starts to bring in out of state clients, and the local LDS guides and their wives will be all over him. They'll sit him right down and give him a good talking to. Those Tigers belong to the followers of Joseph Jr., and his right hand man, Brigham.
Kevin | |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Um, uh, er.
Nope, I promised myself I'd stay out of this one!
C'mon out Dan, there's plenty of dumb fish to go around.
S. | |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | sorenson - 9/9/2009 7:43 PM
Um, uh, er.
Nope, I promised myself I'd stay out of this one!
C'mon out Dan, there's plenty of dumb fish to go around.
S.
Jump right in, Bro. You've got family in MN. You're Norwegian for God's sake. I think.
Kevin | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Funny how Vilas, GB, Hayward, 'Bago, Madison.... just keep getting better....
KEEP going West young man....
JS | |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | What are you talking about Jason, There arnt any big fish in WI. I think people need to head to Utah!
Peter | |
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| Shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! | |
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| I'm not sure where the concern is really.
I mean seriously, there are tons and tons and tons of acres of muskie water in MN. Hundreds of thousands of acres where you can wet a line.
And to go along with all those acres of water, there are TONS of guides. Guides in all sorts of small, local towns. Guides at all the resorts. Guides that advertise, and guides that work by word of mouth that aren’t all over the internet. Lots of them.
The number of out of state guides that head to MN is virtually negligible. It’s a blip on the radar of the total number of guides in MN. It’s statistically insignificant.
Also, out of state guides aren’t the only ones that don’t pay the taxes on a cash exchange. I’m sure in that cash based business, there are quite a few local guides that don’t pay their taxes. And their numbers are large enough to again make the out of state guides impact close to nothing. All guides should be paying their taxes…I’m not condoning what they do. But I encourage everyone to look at the bigger picture.
In addition, as many have said, if these out of state guides didn’t travel to MN, there would quickly be a local guide to soak up their business. Essentially the effects of delayed mortality from increased guide trips on a given water would remain unchanged with or without them.
The main reason the traveling guides catch attention and focus is because for the most part they are well known all over the muskie world. They write in magazines and have fishing DVD’s. They promote themselves, and we all know their faces. It’s psychology, we will pay attention to the guy we recognize rather than the 20 unknown faces that are behind him doing the same thing. When these guides hop on a lake, we know their boat. We recognize them. But like I said, if they weren’t there, another guide with a less known face would be in their place…along side the 20 other guys that are already there not catching our attention to begin with.
If guides bring in out of state business, that’s awesome for MN. But But it’s not a ton, and in reality, the fishing is what brings people there. The fishing is awesome. And with that awesomeness comes greater fishing pressure. It’s not due to out of state guides bringing people to your local lake. It’s because a local guy told someone about it that couldn’t keep their mouth shut
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Halfpint - 9/9/2009 8:32 PM
The main reason the traveling guides catch attention and focus is because for the most part they are well known all over the muskie world. They write in magazines and have fishing DVD’s. They promote themselves, and we all know their faces. It’s psychology, we will pay attention to the guy we recognize rather than the 20 unknown faces that are behind him doing the same thing.
They remind me of famous TV chefs, and I don't mean that in a bad way.
Kevin | |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
You are exactly right. People pay attention to them. That's why everyone wants to go where they are fishing. That's why where they are at gets burned out, and then they move on.
The publicity they put out there is a bullseye on whatever lake they happen to be working.
That's what I can't understand. The local guides I know tend to keep hot bites a secret, they don't want to attract attention to lakes that aren't getting hordes of 50" hungry anglers on them.
That's the difference in the guide culture now, that's why people don't want the "circus" coming to town. It's not just the guides, it's the entourage that follows them that scares people (litterally, it really does).
So, there is a difference in "local" guides, and guys who go lake to lake, promoting and showcasing the lakes they are on, and then moving on to the next.
Good, bad, right or wrong the traveling guides are causing resentment among anglers.
Maybe that will change, be nice if they'd just spread out, and park on an area. People will be attracted to the name (guide), want to fish with so and so to learn.
But, it is what it is I guess.
JS
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Posts: 724
Location: Southern W.Va. | I haven't posted on here for quite a while but this time I'm gonna give my $.02
As an "out of state" fisherman I can say that , without a question, the internet, Muskie Inc, and other forms of imformation thast are available are the MAJOR causes of fishing decline. If it wasn't for the internet, I would have never fished any of the trophy waters like the "Big Pond", the "Big V", Cave Run, Lake of the Woods, Webster because I probably wouldn't have heard of these waters. It is not "out of state" guides that have brought on the preasure that is seen on these and other musky waters, but it is a fact the musky fishing is enjoying greater numbers of fishermen . That , along with the fact that there will always be a limited number of musky available can only mean that instead of having the lake all to themselves, they will be more people using these waters. That being said, to me the biggest thing that I look at is not the number of fishermen or guides but the number of fish being taken from the water. CPR works , we all know that but a speared fish has little chance of making it . Like its been stated before , if you write about it and I read it then I and many others will probably be fishing it.
As far as "local guides" only , then don't let out of state contractors come and bring their crews to build our schools and businesses. Maybe we should band out of state apple growers or potato farmers from selling their products anywhere but "local". Seems dumbs to me.
C.J Cantley aka Mauser | |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Mauser - 9/9/2009 10:06 PM
I haven't posted on here for quite a while but this time I'm gonna give my $.02
As an "out of state" fisherman I can say that , without a question, the internet, Muskie Inc, and other forms of imformation thast are available are the MAJOR causes of fishing decline. If it wasn't for the internet, I would have never fished any of the trophy waters like the "Big Pond", the "Big V", Cave Run, Lake of the Woods, Webster because I probably wouldn't have heard of these waters. It is not "out of state" guides that have brought on the preasure that is seen on these and other musky waters, but it is a fact the musky fishing is enjoying greater numbers of fishermen . That , along with the fact that there will always be a limited number of musky available can only mean that instead of having the lake all to themselves, they will be more people using these waters. That being said, to me the biggest thing that I look at is not the number of fishermen or guides but the number of fish being taken from the water. CPR works , we all know that but a speared fish has little chance of making it . Like its been stated before , if you write about it and I read it then I and many others will probably be fishing it.
As far as "local guides" only , then don't let out of state contractors come and bring their crews to build our schools and businesses. Maybe we should band out of state apple growers or potato farmers from selling their products anywhere but "local". Seems dumbs to me.
C.J Cantley aka Mauser
I find your post confusing. Are you saying musky fishing is in decline? Are you saying that too many fish are kept? Seems to me the number of large fish being caught is increasing, and CPR is most likely one of the primary reasons. Granted, the Internet puts information in front of a lot of people, but you're also blaming Muskies Inc. for a decline? Isn't MI generally considered a positive factor as far as the development and protection of musky fisheries?
You mention spearing in your post, but I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion of more pressure and out of state guides. They're not spearing or keeping fish as far as I now.
You say the Internet is a negative factor, yet then state without it, you would have never heard of or fished a number of major trophy waters. Are you saying that as an out of state fisherman spurred to travel by available information, that is is you and people like you that are causing a decline in musky fisheries?
Maybe I'm just tired, I know I'm not drunk, but I have no idea what point(s) you are trying to make.
Kevin
Edited by MuskyHopeful 9/9/2009 10:39 PM
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Guest,
As a cabin owner on Deer, you know what pressure really is, no doubt. Anyone remember the Lindner/Spence Petros tape when they put 23 muskies in the boat in one day? That put Deer on the map. And BAM, truckloads of Minnesota folks were out there. The Minnesota DNR learned a lot from that, but never paid for it. You can't overstock, it's harmful to the resource. You can't understock if you can get the resources, especially where there isn't natural reproduction. In fact, everyone in the muskie community who pays attention learned what happens when overstocking and overfishing takes nature out of balance, based on what has happened on Bone and Deer.
That said, Wisconsin is taking on a new format for musky management, based on what Minnesota learned from us and what we learned from Minnesota recently. I think the fact with Wisco has 790 musky lakes compared to MN's 116 or whatever is a testiment to what WI has in store for us in the future. | |
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| the productive run of this thread is apparently complete, as it's devolving into personal and inter-state attacks that have needed to be removed.
please try and remember the points of agreement: trying to protect and expand a shared resource all across the muskie's range. respect it and respect each other even when the viewpoints differ.
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Locals only?