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| Lots of lost fish this season by me an my buddies. Curious what many of you think about the combo of stiff rods and no-stretch lines. I'm beginning to think a fish can get slack line WAAAAAAY too easy with these set-ups. I'm thinking just a headshake alone can produce enough slack line for a lure to be tossed.
Will I need to give up the benefits of a stiff rod and start using softer tips to ensure a fish doesn't get any slack line? I'd hate to give up the ease of wildly twitching a bait, ripping free from weeds, etc. just to allow me the extra "slop" needed to keep a hook in a fish. I've been using the classic "Bob Mehsikomer" hookset to reduce the risk of slack line... but still been losin' 'em. Any ideas?????? |
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| The classic what should I do when using the super braids. I am convinced that except for very specialized conditions that I am going back to the regular Tuff Line. This has about twice as much "give" as the Power Pro or Tuff + or xp. I do not like all the shock I feel through the line when I have a fish at the boat with any of the super braids. Great for hooksets but when the hooks are in I wish the fish was on about 30# mono. I have gone to a couple of rods with a little softer tip. Seems to work for me but the jury is still out on the Power Pro etc for me. Hope this muddies the water for you some more.[:devil:] |
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| I’ve been having a problem hooking too. I’ve had my 6’9” heavy for almost two years now and I absolutely love the way I can twitch/work a bait, but have lost way too many fish on it. Last fall I lost what would have been my first 50” and the weekend before last I missed three ferocious strikes by decent legal fish that almost took the rod out of my hands.
I’ve since stopped palming my reel and I’m holding the rod by the fore grip. I can still work the baits good and I hope I’ll gain the needed strength to hold on. I hope this helps me because I feel like a pigeon toed paulzie with the rod crooked in my hands when this happens. I’m also starting to reel like a madman after the strike. When I lost “the big one” last year on a thrashing head out of the water boat charge I started doing this.
I HATE slack line when fighting a fish and LOVE slack line when working a bait.
What to do… what to do… what to do… [:blackeye:]
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| I have lost one fish this year using mono and that was my fault. Sorry to rub it in. |
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| This "problem" is one of the reasons that I am a fan of setting the hook twice. The second hookset can sometimes pull the lure free, but most of the time it will dig the hooks more, increasing your chances of safely landing the fish.
How much slack is good? none [;)] |
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| With the superbraids I like using a high speed reel like the Abu C4's. It makes it much easier to keep a tight line when that fish is barreling in toward the boat. It does get to be hard on the wrists if you are using them for deep diving cranks all day though.
Mike |
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| No time to get into my entire theory here but the simple answer to your problems is a lose drag. Like I mentioned many times before a lose drag lets the fish take line when they want with still keeping contact and avoiding any lose line.
I use stiff rods with 80# power pro and still lose very few fish after they are hooked. Like everyone else I blow a hookset sleeping once in a while but once the fish is on it makes it to the net 98% of the time. [:sun:] |
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| Jason, I was having the same problems. Since I switched to lighter 7'6's and 8'ers my ratio has been much better. I'm sure I would have lost a four footer the other day(barely hooked by the time I got it in) if not for the give in my rig. |
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| As the old say goes,been there,done that...Yup I had the same problem with the 6'9" Heavy and super braids.I lost way too may fish to remember.I switched to my bucktail rod,a 7'6" medium and would't you know,I didn't loose half as many fish! For twitching and jerk baits I use a 6'6" with a little give in the tip and that seems to be even a better hooker than a medium heavy. Just my observations and I hope you find a combo that works for you.Paul |
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| I think this is just "one of those things". We all go through periods where we either can't catch a fish or every one we see falls off. If you have landed fish on the gear you're using in the past just get your head down and keep going, eventually it will get better. I had a great days fishing recently with loads of takes, only about half of them stayed on for more than a couple of seconds, but the ones that did were really well hooked. The ones that came off just weren't hooked well. All the fish were taking the same lure, just some of them were making a better job of it. It happens.
Tim |
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| TrophyMuskie hit it right on the head. The tendency I notice in people using the superbraids is to tighten the drag way too tight because they think the line wont break . This is a mistake because exactly the problem you are describing is going to happen. With a tight drag you can cannot make any mistake at all such as dipping the rod back toward the fish-slow second hookset etc. Loosening the drag setting makes it difficult for the fish to get what I call "line leverage" (new term since the advent of superbraids}.The problem is exacerbated by the combination of tight drags and the heavier duty rods used today.Loosening the drag setting is usually all that is needed to correct the problem. |
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| I gotta go w/ Richard on this one...the biggest ski I ever hooked was lost at boatside because the drag was maxed + the hook on a 6" Poagie pulled out. I was also using an Ocean City boat/pier trolling rod which is like a broom stick. I like a tad lighter tip but like Richie says, a lightening of the drag near the boat may help the most. I don't have enough experience w/ skis to know for sure but it works w/ big fish of other types. A little slack in the line + often that is all they need to free themselves...the worse part is watching them swim around the boat as if they are still hooked![:(] * Didn't mean to repeat HCs post! wnet upstairs in mid post for java + forgot where I was...[;)] |
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| J,
Maybe YOU need to losen up a bit??????lol
MUSKY ILLINI
"I going to go get the paper...get the paper" |
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| Going to softer rod tips is no secret to me. Backing off on my drag is NOT an option. End of discussion.
However, I will entertain the softer rod actions if someone can teach me how to use them. I've tried to use them for many of the "slack line presentations" that I favor and find them too inefficient and sloppy. Perhaps this is why you guys like those telephone poles (8 footers)? Do you think I could tolerate a little more "give" in the rod with the added length since it won't take as much work at the wrist to move the rod tip a larger distance?
Sorry for being so stubborn on the drag issue, but I've "been there, done that" with the loose drag.... and will NEVER make that mistake again. Thanks for your feedback and I'd like to learn more about how you guys are "slack snapping" glide baits and radically twitching crankbaits with the softer, longer rods. Thanks. |
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| I like the idea of of a little more line stretch, but can’t see going to mono. It would be cool of the super braid manufacturers could weave in some stretch and offer lines with different stretch ratings. They should come up with a completely new rating system, ex. 65lb test offered in 1% 6% 12% stretch.
I’ve heard of shock tippets in saltwater fishing, what’s that concept about?
Would that be like having my tuff line attached to 5 or 10 feet of heavy mono and then a steel leader? How would I tie the tuff line to mono and still get it through the guides? Am I nuts for thinking this?[:p]
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| Jason we need to tie you down and spin that star drag back to show you what you are missing. You said you had previous problems I would like to know what they are.
I have landed hundreads of big fish that trash at the boat and some that take me for a walk around the boat and everyone of those had a chance at getting off if I had a tight drag. ( You should see what a 54 incher does when she swims around the boat 3/4 way then back 3 to 4 times with her head out of the water shaking it left and right) When the fish are not hooked that well the extra tention just pulls the hooks out by giving the fish extra leverage just like HC said. Tight line also helps create or enlarge the hole where the hook is and any little slack will let the hook slide out.
Believe it or not I also know that the extra tention makes the fish fight different or harder, the fish having it's way with your lure may cause them to put up less of a fight then if they are pulled and dragged in by a tight drag.
Now Jason if you mention freespool then thats your direct answer to why you get slack line and your fish get off. The only way to land a fish on freespool everytime would be to have it in freespool as your reeling in. That split second when you reach to hit the button is all the time a muskie needs to get off or losen that hook. [:sun:] |
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| Hey Jason it sounds like you have to stop using those 8" Jakes!![:p] I know somebody else that had that problem once upon a time.[;)] |
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| Gotta go with the guys saying back off on the drag setting. I lost entirely too many fish of different species (muskies, rock fish, steelhead and salmon) when I first went to super no-stretch lines and had my drag settings entirely too tight. Nearly every one was lost right at the boat after the fight was 95% over and the fish should have been mine. Loosened up the drag and my lost fish talley plummeted to near zero. I just can't argue with success...[;)] |
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| NXT, I love your idea of designing lines with various stretch levels. Hope someone jumps on that one.
Richard, sorry man... but I'm set in my ways on the freespool thing and a TIGHT drag. I can't tolerate the constant slippage when working my lures. I've lost way too many fish because I THINK there is slack line.... but it is simply the drag giving the fish line. I like to be in control... and a drag is one more variable to have to be conscious of when things are most critical. I've tried a loose drag... and just can't get used to it. A loose drag is one trick you will never teach this cat. Believe me, I've tried it... and it just ain't for me. As for time to hit freespool..... that is not a problem with the reels I use. They all have thumbars so there is no REACHING for the BUTTON. Secondly.... if I am not turning the handle... I am in freespool... so the fish can have line whenever it wants. I've only lost one fish due to not being able to disengage the reel... and that was back when I used 6500's and not as conscious about the freespool thing.
I think the biggest issue here is NOT the drag.... but the no-stretch line and stiff rod actions. A loose drag won't prevent a fish from getting that one inch of slack it generates with a headshake. Freespooling won't prevent it either. I personally believe that is the biggest cause for most of these lost fish... other than just bad luck. It is when the fish is moving TOWARDS you. A drag can't do anything for ya when they do that.... but a rod can.
I know a softer rod action will fix (or at least help) this problem... but I'm fearful of reducing the number of strikes I produce due to less lure action. Once you get a fish to hit, a longer, softer rod is obviously the ideal way to go..... but how do you "walk the dog" with an Ernie, slack snap a Reef Hawg, or get a 10" Jake to kick out with a limber 8 foot rod???????? If I give up those "triggers" I won't connect with as many fish. Is that worth it? Like I said, would you rather battle with 10 fish and catch 1 or battle with 1 fish and catch 1? I'll take the action.
So, who is going to teach me how to use an 8 foot rod????[:halo:] |
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| Daggone dude!!!! Loosen the daggone drag a BIT when the fish gets near the boat, AFTER you have worked/jerked the bait! I use 8 footers w/ a fairly soft tip for rocks + use a longer hook sweep. As far as working jerks, experiment w/ different rods/tips...other than that, you have worked yourself into a frenzy that no man can squelch![;)] |
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| J, nearly all I do is slack snap, hence the handle. One trick I use is to start cranking immediately upon the snap, right when the bait turns to make the glide. My reel is often helping me move the baits, and I seem to miss fewer fish on the pause, though I still miss my share. I've been doing this with the R&G too. |
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| Great topic.
This is going to sound a little crazy to some, but if you try it you'll see what I'm talking about.
I had the same problem with losing fish when I got my first 7'6" muskie rod back in 93. The problem that I ran into is really a simple one. The longer the rod is, the more force you generate with it when you set the hook. I was previously taught to lay into the fish on the hook set. This ended up costing me fish until I figured out that I was literally pulling the bait out of the fishes mouth.
If you're using a 7ft or greater length mid weight or heavier rod all you need to do to get a good hookset is to pop em. Especially with the super lines. I use tuff line in 50 and 80# test on all my baitcasters. The only donwside to no strecth lines that I've come across is that they seem to add some wear and tear on the reel.
With muskies I always set the hook twice. After the first run I wait until I have the fish running the way I want it and I hit it a second time.
I don't believe there's a right or wrong way to control the line that a fish gets. It's personal preference.
I control the line in a similar manner as Jlong. Whenever the fish is not coming towards me I disengage the reel, put my thumb on the spool and manually control how much line the fish gets. It's easier for me to roll the rod on a fish that's heading out away from me if I control the line in this manner. However, the real reason I choose to do it this way is this. I trust myself to let out the proper amount of line and keep the fish where I want it more than I trust the reel to do it for me.
The only time I use the drag button on any of my reels is with spinning tackle and light line or light hooks where there is a threat of breaking the line or bending out the hook.
Brian |
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| Brian, I went through the same learning curve with no-stretch lines several years ago too. Nothing worse than literally ripping the lip off a nice fish during a tourney!!!! Quickly learned my lesson there. Sounds like we use the same technique... except I only set the hook once.
Reef Hawg..... I GOTTA see how you are working your hawgs with a long rod. I've progressed from my trusty 5'6" to a 6' and last year made it up to a 6'9" for my Reef Hawgs... but felt this was the end of the road. Obviously "slack snapping" can be done with these longer rods... I just need to see it done. When is my first lesson?[:bigsmile:] |
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| Thanks a bunch guys [:blackeye:]. Now I have to go out and by another combo [:bigsmile:]. My longest rod yet (I'm a slow learner too). I’ve got it narrowed down to two, G Loomis 7’7” 1-4oz or St. Croix 7’6” ¾-3. I’m leaning towards my first Loomis. Any diff?
Hey guys, can I get in on those lessons too? I have a cabin and a lake.
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| I think your putting way to much on the rod. Man just give me a pool cue with eyes on it and a 6500C3 and lets go fishing.
The rod can only make it easyer to cast and work your lures and has very little to do with landing the fish. Yes the rod has something to do but the difference between a 6'6" or and 8' one if not that big.
All I need to catch a tonne of muskies is my G-Loomis 6'6" jerkbait rod with a 6500C3 and my 80# powerpro and last but not least a few lures. I can cast and troll my spinnerbaits and troll my believers as well as casting my reef hawgs and sledges.
Man out of over 30+ fish so far this season all but a handfull came from 1 type of lure. I broke in this new one last Friday and so far in 24 hours of fishing it's caught 12 fish 7 of those are muskies up to 46 inches long. Man muskie fishing is not that complicated. [:p] |
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| Jason,
I think you need no lessons, but if you want to watch me
poke around a rocky river stretch with a beat up reef hawg give me a call when I return from Canada on the 22nd.
Good luck in the Fox Valley,
Jason Sch. |
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| Jason, we will most certainly bounce a few rocks on the river yet this season.
Richard, what is your point.... or are you simply bragging and putting a little salt in my wounds for fun? I am a pool cue guy myself. I'm just trying to learn why people are using these ungodly long rods and what potential benefit they may offer. The ONLY thing I can come up with is the softer tip action MAY prevent a fish from getting some slack line... especially at boatside. The "bend" in the rod will prevent the fish from getting that little tiny bit of slack they need to shake a hook. However, you don't need a LONG rod to have a soft tip.
For now, I'll stick with my pool cues and keep telling myself the rash of lost fish me and my buddies are experiencing is simply part of the game. |
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| This is my 1st post on this board, so if it's screwed up, I'll try something different next time.
After reading this thread, I realize I'm definitely out of step with the majority of my peers. I use no rods longer than 6', with 3 of them the old pool cues between 5'2" and 5' 6". I have the drag almost completely off, with just a little to keep the line from breaking. my hooking percentage is fair like everyone's. There's cycles where I can't get a hookset and times when each fish gets set.
I count my fish as on, after the 1st hook set when I feel the fish is still at the end of the line. It's at the point that my percentage is counted which is around 75%, and after the 2nd and 3rd hook set it jumps to around 95%. I can't explain these numbers, but it seems the fish that aren't hooked good will shake off between the 1st and 2nd set, but only rarely get off after the 3rd.
I have never tried any line but dacron which has served me well since I started down the dark road that's called musky fishing. I've watched many of my partners try all types and weight of lines which convinced me to stick with the plain old fashioned stuff. Call me old fashioned, but I haven't had anyone show me they do better with superlines or longer rods. My advise is go with what you're comfortable with, and know that musky catches go in cycles, the good with the bad. During the bad, sometimes looking for the "miracle" new equipment maybe just chasing the rainbow! |
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| "Tight line also helps create or enlarge the hole where the hook is and any little slack will let the hook slide out". Qoute from Richard Collins...
I like this quote, really says alot about super lines. The trick that I do because I am a free spooling lock the drag tight fool like you jlong. I set the hook and when the fish is on his first run and I am thumbing the spool on free spool, I take my right hand and role the drag back. I do this in the first 4 seconds of the fight if the fish is a good one.
Free spooling is fine, but you still need to allow for quick head shakes and runs that sometime come unexpected when you re ingauge the reel to bring the bad boy in.
My biggest problem with super lines is its too quick, sometimes on spinnerbaits I set the hook before they shut there mouth....and PING!....those single hooks slide out and its gone before the fish even knows what happened.
Rods can make the difference, I use 8' Lamiglas and they are heavy enough to pitch baits and work them, but forgiving enough to not rip a 3" hole in the fish. Quickness sets the hook. Talk to the walleye boys, the first 1.5' from the rod tip is for feel, the next foot quick hookset, and the rest to the cork is for backbone.
Just some ideas, great topic jlong!
[:bigsmile:] |
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| Not ripping at you at all Jason. Just mentioning that at times we tend to just think to much. As you well know your one of the leaders when it comes to a thinking man behind a rod. What I am trying to say is forget about your bad streak and go out there have fun and the fish will start making it back to the boat.
We all have been there many times and I believe the day you start to relax and forget about the fish you lost yesterday you will get on a positive roll where no fish will get off for weeks.
I am sure the guy going out there thinking to himself " Hmmmm will I land one of these damn fish today, I lost 3 yesterday and one was a monster" even before he gets on the water. Then once he's out there and gets a hit his mind is not where it should be is making him lose more fish then he should.
I say go out there with a possitive attitude of landing every fish that hit your lure. Try not to think to much once you do have a fish on, I am sure you are already pre-programmed to do whats right to get that fish to the net.
I am sure it's all bad luck and in no way will a change of rod help, maybe a bit loser drag. [:p]
Now get out there and stick a few on your next trip.
P.S. One thing that I mention to most of my clients is " The hardest thing in muskie fishing is getting them to hit, the rest is the easy part." |
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| Richard, that's some good advice. I am already doing as you recommend. Personally, I can laugh and enjoy even the mishap of a lost fish. I quit beating myself up over lost fish many many years ago... just not worth it.
I asked these questions because it seems that many other people besides myself are losing more fish than usual the past few years. This seems like too much of a coincidence... so my brain started trying to solve the "problem".
I still think bad luck is a BIG factor.... but I just like to make sure I am not being too narrow minded (like the drag thing [:bigsmile:] ) and try to keep on top of new equipment and techniques that MAYBE I should be trying.
Operator Error is never one of my excuses.... I usually go with Bad Luck everytime.[:halo:]
Don't worry.... I'll get the next one. |
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How much slack does a fish need?