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Posts: 238
| This past saturday a good friend and myself were out on a kawartha lake in ontario.I caught a nice clean 47 incher while trolling a pounder.
The fish put up an excelent fight and was quickly netted in the big beckman upon arriving at boatside.
The hook removal was simple as she only had one point of the rear treble through the end of her lower jaw,a quick snip and she was free.
She was in the net maybe 30 seconds to a minute,completely submerged while the gear was moved to a safe spot for a photo.
At this point she was lifted from the net and well supported for three quick photos,30 seconds at most and placed back to the lake for revivale.
She was breathing well and seemed strong.
Upon release she swam on the surface and seemed to have trouble going down,at one point i went back over to her and got her and torpedoed her down deep and she took off only to float back up abot a minute later with weeds in her yap and mud on her belly.It was like she couldnt release the air from her swim bladder,however the fish came out of 16.8 feet of water so i dont know how the swimbladder could have been that badly expanded.Surface temps were 77.6 degrees.
After about 30mins at boat side and looking really strong i gave her anoth shove and she took off and went down.
We waited on the spot for about a half hour casting around and she never reapeared so i felt good she had made it.
How ever about an hour and a half latter we were trolling through the same area and my friend spotted her up at the surface being harrassed by gulls.I went over to her and she was very much alive but bloated with air and could not submerge.
I placed her in the 45 inch live well to see if it would help her.
We checked her every fifteen minutes and she was breathing well and responding favorably to handling,but the bloating kept getting worse.
After having her with us for about 4 hours and in a last ditch attemt to save her i decided to squeeze her abdomen to burp her and it worked,she burped up a bunch or air and reponded very well with good strong tail kicks but no sooner did this occour and her eyes went blank and she was dead.
I felt and still feel super bad.I ended up giving her to my fathers neighbor who eats muskie and he was very thankful for the fish so she did not go to waste.
I have had two other muskies act this way before but i think both of them made it i hope,same deal with the bloating that they seemed to over come.
I have released over 400 muskies and this is only my second definite fatallaty the earlier being a bulldawg caught fish that was hooked badly in the gill arches with two trebles and died due to bleeding.
Needless to say i feel horrible about the passing of this beautiful fish.
And i hope some of you guys can help me out with some methods for dealing with bloated air trapped fish.
I think if i would have burped her earlier she may have made it but at the same time i wonder if me burping her was what killed her in the end.
For all you guys that have had similar experiences your input will be greatly appreciated.
I will attach pics of said fish tommorrow when i upload them to my computer.
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Posts: 774
Location: South East Wisconsin | Hey you know some fish DON'T make it. It sucks but it happens. I had one like that but I kept her in the net and moved to shallow water untill she was ready to go.
S.Killips |
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Posts: 646
Location: In a shack in the woods | You could always try fizzing it. I've never done it myself but supposably it works. |
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Posts: 457
| Bummer, there could well have been some other factor that caused the fish to die. Hard to tell.
When it comes to "fizzing" a fish, fold the pectoral fin back, and count two to three full scales, that's your penetration point. Insert the tool @ 45 degrees, and gently squeeze the abdomen, if you've got good control of the fish, and it's in the water, you should see bubbles.
Another method to release fish caught from depths is a tool from Shelton, though I've not found it to be terribly reliable on bigger fish. It's a sort of reverse hook, with a great amount of weight on the bottom end. Presumably, the tool allows you to re-hook the fish, and the weight will carry the fish down through the water column. When you feel the fish at depth, and it's revived, you simply reel the line, and the fish comes unpinned because of the hook being in the reverse position. |
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| Stuff like this happens from time to time.
I would have burped her first, then simply just HELD her still. I know you tried your best, but I don't think the torpedoing affect helped any, or picking up her up again and putting her in your live well did much good. The best thing for them is to simply be head upright and still. No moving back and fourth, no "S" motion, no shoving her head down and tordeoping, just hold her there up right and still. |
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Posts: 250
Location: Pittsburgh, PA | MURDERER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KIDDIN. Sucks to hear that but at least you tried your hardest. |
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| You shouldn't beat yourself up too badly over this, seems like you gave a valiant effort, and that is what counts the most.
I think what gets lost too often in the CPR ethic is that at some point you WILL lose a fish, so people should be prepared to deal with the consequences with killing a fish. I'm sure many of us have had what we see as a "strong" release that might have ended up dead unbeknownst to us. We use big lures, with big hooks and exert enormous stresses on muskies because these fish don't make it easy on us to land them.
We derive our "enjoyment" of the sport from the hunt, hookset and fight. These are all unnatural occurrences for a musky. And while we may strive to be as humane possible in our hooking and landing of these fish, we still are walking a fine line in the use ‘deadly’ force in the manner in which we fish. And whether we intend to or not, a time will come when due to circumstances out of our control, we will cross that deadly force line and there can be nothing done to prevent it.
It is the nature of the sport and we all should except that as a reality.
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Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | Whoolligan - 8/18/2009 2:41 PM
Bummer, there could well have been some other factor that caused the fish to die. Hard to tell.
When it comes to "fizzing" a fish, fold the pectoral fin back, and count two to three full scales, that's your penetration point. Insert the tool @ 45 degrees, and gently squeeze the abdomen, if you've got good control of the fish, and it's in the water, you should see bubbles.
Another method to release fish caught from depths is a tool from Shelton, though I've not found it to be terribly reliable on bigger fish. It's a sort of reverse hook, with a great amount of weight on the bottom end. Presumably, the tool allows you to re-hook the fish, and the weight will carry the fish down through the water column. When you feel the fish at depth, and it's revived, you simply reel the line, and the fish comes unpinned because of the hook being in the reverse position.
I have seen this on TV. they claim it works.
How about just jumping overboared and swim her down yourself? Does that really sound that crazy? I've picked snagged baits off rocks fairly deep. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | i would have got her to a taxadermist and made a mount out of her. and keep it as a rememberance of her on the wall.. thats about the best you can do for her...bill |
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Posts: 556
| Sounds like you worked hard at keeping her alive. I have never experienced this before but some great suggestions here may someday help me save 1 if such as case should ever happen to me. They don't all make it but someone besides the gulls enjoyed her---Sounds like you have had great success at releasing them unharmed so keep doing what you have been doing and don't beat yopurself up over it---Maybe you can save the next one. |
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Posts: 619
| nice effort!!!! thats what we need, guys doing there absolute best to release fish and keep em alive. i had a 51 that come out of 25 feet of water this yr. in the net, never came out of the water, popped hooks out very fast (again never came out of water). it WOULD NOT go down. it was breathing and staying up right no problem, it would try to swim down, but it couldnt. we tied a very loose circle around its girthy part, then put weights on the circle and slowly sank the fish down. i believe the fish lived. it never came back up. i sat for another hour ( no sign of the fish) revisited the area several times in the next 8 hours (nothing there). So, my best guess is it lived???? SO, Try tying a weight around them (loosly of course) once you get the fish weighted to the bottom, slowly pull your rod and slip that loose circle w/ the weight of the fish... you can feel it come off. anyone else ever try that.
by the way i have seen more dead floaters this yr than ever before, even though water temps arent even high... i inspected a few and they look like the werent even caught by anyone, hardly any marks in the mouth area.
Edited by Slow Rollin 8/18/2009 8:07 PM
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Fish die, ......................Deer die, ........Turkey die,..... Moose die,..Bear die, and Humans die.... so... Lets try and replentish our resources as much as possible.
Do the Best you can do, and see what happens.
Jerome |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Please do not "fizz" a musky. That technique is for deep dropped saltwater reef fish that come out of 500 plus feet. It is the rapid ascension that causes them to bloat. Muskies mostly bloat from stress and changes in water temperature. Even "Fizzing" saltwater fish results mostly in delayed mortality. With a semi-fragile fish like a stressed musky, all you are doing is sinking a slowly dying fish.
It is better to stay with the fish. Don't push off until it kicks if it seems lethargic. I've stayed with fish over an hour until it naturally burped or kicked down. Did it survive? Who knows? Sometimes there is nothing you can do. Like it's been stated a couple times, Unfortunately, muskies die. |
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Posts: 1455
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | My partner and I worked a 47 for over 35 minutes...one gill was 'breathing' more than the other but she at times seemed strong, but when released would swim down and attempt a roll...we always prevented her from doing this thinking it was a bad sign...we placed in livewell and turned on air for 25 minutes and both gills started pumping....placed her in water and she still kept wanting to do a spiral-roll which we continued to prevent her from doing...eventually we let go of her and allowed her to do this spiral roll....rolling over as pushing downward into water...we thought, aw...crap...and circled back around through the dark toward her expecting her to be belly up. .to our surprise she was upright on the surface and swimming away slowly...we followed her for another 15 minutes until she powered away into the depths...high fives...
We talked about how it seemed as if the fish NEEDED to do this spiral roll to get her balance back b/c once we allowed her to do it, she really seemed to get her bearings....who knows. |
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Posts: 8
Location: Indiana | I do not care what anyone says! Trolling does not hurt the fish anymore than casting does if your do it the correct way. I have trolled for 25 years and have never lost a fish. |
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| Muskies dont bloat from stress
Signs of stress are pretty easily spotted,rosy or reddish flanks
they naturally have air in their swim bladders to control buoyancy and allow them to stay on the bottom or suspend
Best way to deal with a fish which has air trapped in its swim bladder is to release immediately and stay with the fish during the time its stays at the surface until it expels the air.
This process can take up to 1 hour
the fish is uncomfortable with trapped air,any human contact or restraining will elevate the stress levels which will lead to mortality or post mortal release
restraining a fish either in a live well or net or by hand will only elevate the stress levels that will eventually lead to a mortal stress related reaction.
I deal with it on a regular basis
dont feel bad,fish do die when you fish for them
good luck with your future releases |
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| trolling kills more fish??????
That is the most un-founded comment I have ever read
physiological reasons are the reason the fish did not survive
Not the method of fishing |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | marc thorpe - 8/19/2009 5:14 AM
trolling kills more fish??????
That is the most un-founded comment I have ever read
physiological reasons are the reason the fish did not survive
Not the method of fishing
+1
Regardless of how the fish is hooked and the method of catching... one shouldn't favor the other. The method of getting the fish to the boat is all the same whether you're casting or trolling. |
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| As Jerry has mentioned, please do not fizz a muskie, or any other fish for that matter.
***Whooligan, I'm sure you are well intended, but my friend you have just described the location of the esocid heart!!**...You'd get some fizzing alright:-O
Escocids, and other soft-rayed fish have a direct connection with the swim bladder. In other words they can be burrped. This may be one reason for the behavior we know as porpoising. |
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Posts: 1220
| I disagree with the comment on fizzing. It's a widespread and "perfectly" good technique to use on bass and walleye brought up fast from deep water. The BASS organization even markets a fizzing tool with their logo on it. My first problem is that while the loacation mentioned above for doing it is correct on those other fish, I am not sure that it is correct for a musky. I am also not sure from the story that this fish was caught really deep where the swim bladder blowing up is the particular issue involved. For me, if you have enough size to your live-well, it's ice and Rejuevenade in the well with the pump running at max. Marty Forman |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | marc thorpe - 8/19/2009 5:10 AM
Muskies dont bloat from stress
Signs of stress are pretty easily spotted,rosy or reddish flanks
If a fish caught out of 2 feet of water fills like a balloon once caught, what is the bloating a result of? I always believed it to be an additional result of stress?
There was no dramatic depth change, needing a drastic adjustment of the swim bladder?
So what causes bloat in a shallow caught fish? |
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Posts: 126
| PSYS - 8/19/2009 6:56 AM
marc thorpe - 8/19/2009 5:14 AM
trolling kills more fish??????
That is the most un-founded comment I have ever read
physiological reasons are the reason the fish did not survive
Not the method of fishing
+1
Regardless of how the fish is hooked and the method of catching... one shouldn't favor the other. The method of getting the fish to the boat is all the same whether you're casting or trolling.
I don't quite agree with the statement about trolling not killing fish. If a fish is brought up from deeper water too fast in hot temperatures you will see a lot more dead fish. I am not talking about trolling in just a few feet of water. In the summer months when the thermocline sets up and the fish are hanging deep and fisherman are trolling deep, bringing fish up 15-20 feet it is hard on them and you are gonna see more dead fish. Period. I have seen it and in my early days I've done, with regret. I don't do it any more.
As to the original post, congrats on a good fish. It sounds like you tried. Some of them just don't make it no matter how hard we try. That is part of musky fishing and something that we need to be prepared to handle. Don't fret too much. Dave. |
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Posts: 238
| Thank you everyone for all the kind words of encouragement and your opinions on release methods.
Like othres have said here fish die,its a fact we are going to have to deal with if we are going to fish for muskies.
I feel ok about it now and looking back over my muskie fishing carear i no i have done my best with each and every fish i have ever had the pleasure of dealing with and that is all i can ask of myself or anyone else who shares my boat.
Again thanks guys for giving me a lift,it helps knowing your not the only one this kind of thing happens to.
I said i would have a photo today but unfotunatly when i got home from work the wife had plans for me and i never got to the computer so i will try and get it done tonight and update the post with a pic tommorrow.
I do have a question still which i had asked in the original post which i didnt see an answer to in the replys and that is is it ok to manually burp a fish with my hands ,no needles just work my hands up the abdomen until burping occurs.
Or would this do more harm than good?
As some stated,thre best advise is to just monitor the fish untill it recovers on its own,which is what i normally do but in this case recovery was not taking place and again in exteme case like this where recovery is not happening should i again try to burp the fish or am i potentially doing more harm than good?
I am going to put in a call to a fisheries bioligist friend of mine who works for the MNR out of thunder bay ontario and see if i can get some professional insight on the matter,ill let you all know wht he says tommorrow.
Thanks again everyone for your input.
Cliff |
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| As mentioned the air bladder has a direct connection in muskies. Therefore, they can be burped. In my opinion, if done gently without undo force on internal organs, burping is a viable option if a fish will not stay upright. I have put this in practice on a few occasions. Keep in mind there is one additional atmosphere of pressure for every 10 meters of water. I recently read a paper for tournament caught SMB that suggests swim bladder distention at 5 meters (roughly 15-17 ft).
There are research papers out there that found positive results for venting, yellow perch comes to mind in particular. There are also papers finding no to negative effects. Here is a very recent article that summarized all the available literature about venting which basically concludes venting is a no no. Of particular interest is the section I included within ****.
Does Venting Promote
Survival of Released Fish?
Fisheries • vol 34 no 1 • january 2009. Gene R. Wilde
http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/gwilde/Shared%20Documents/Reprints/...
Abstract: Fishes captured and brought to the surface by commercial and recreational fishers may suffer a variety of injuries
that collectively are referred to as barotrauma. To relieve barotrauma symptoms, particularly those associated with an expanded
swim bladder, some anglers deflate, or vent, the swim bladder (or body cavity when the swim bladder has ruptured) of fishes
before releasing them. I compiled 17 studies that assessed the potential benefits of venting in 21 fish species and 1 composite
group. These studies provided 39 sample estimates that compare survival (N = 18) and recapture rates (N = 21) of vented
and unvented fish. I used relative risk to summarize results of individual studies, which allowed me to combine results from
experimental and capture-recapture studies. ********Overall, there was little evidence that venting benefited fish survival. Venting was
equally ineffective for freshwater and marine fishes and its efficacy was unaffected based on whether venting was performed by
fishery biologists or anglers. The effects of venting did vary with capture depth: venting was slightly beneficial to fish captured
from shallow waters, but appeared to be increasingly harmful for fish captured from progressively deeper waters. The available
evidence suggests that venting fish should not only be discouraged by fishery management agencies, but given the possibility
that venting may adversely affect survival of fish captured from deep water, this practice should be prohibited, rather than
required by regulation.******** |
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Posts: 238
| Tfoot - 8/19/2009 10:44 AM
As mentioned the air bladder has a direct connection in muskies. Therefore, they can be burped. In my opinion, if done gently without undo force on internal organs, burping is a viable option if a fish will not stay upright. I have put this in practice on a few occasions. Keep in mind there is one additional atmosphere of pressure for every 10 meters of water. I recently read a paper for tournament caught SMB that suggests swim bladder distention at 5 meters (roughly 15-17 ft ).
There are research papers out there that found positive results for venting, yellow perch comes to mind in particular. There are also papers finding no to negative effects. Here is a very recent article that summarized all the available literature about venting which basically concludes venting is a no no. Of particular interest is the section I included within ****.
Does Venting Promote
Survival of Released Fish?
Fisheries • vol 34 no 1 • january 2009. Gene R. Wilde
http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/gwilde/Shared%20Documents/Reprints/...
Abstract: Fishes captured and brought to the surface by commercial and recreational fishers may suffer a variety of injuries
that collectively are referred to as barotrauma. To relieve barotrauma symptoms, particularly those associated with an expanded
swim bladder, some anglers deflate, or vent, the swim bladder (or body cavity when the swim bladder has ruptured ) of fishes
before releasing them. I compiled 17 studies that assessed the potential benefits of venting in 21 fish species and 1 composite
group. These studies provided 39 sample estimates that compare survival (N = 18 ) and recapture rates (N = 21 ) of vented
and unvented fish. I used relative risk to summarize results of individual studies, which allowed me to combine results from
experimental and capture-recapture studies. ********Overall, there was little evidence that venting benefited fish survival. Venting was
equally ineffective for freshwater and marine fishes and its efficacy was unaffected based on whether venting was performed by
fishery biologists or anglers. The effects of venting did vary with capture depth: venting was slightly beneficial to fish captured
from shallow waters, but appeared to be increasingly harmful for fish captured from progressively deeper waters. The available
evidence suggests that venting fish should not only be discouraged by fishery management agencies, but given the possibility
that venting may adversely affect survival of fish captured from deep water, this practice should be prohibited, rather than
required by regulation.********
Thanks for the information,great post.
I am now getting closer to the answer to my question.
I think i will only attempt to burp as a very last resort when not doing it is certain death for the fish anyways.
Edited by kawartha kid 8/19/2009 12:40 PM
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Location: Illinois | "I said i would have a photo today but"
Nice post, we empathize, really but I'd rather not see pics of a dead skie. Unless it's really going to serve some purpose to you or the community at whole, please don't post em, I/we understand some will die- but to post pics of said fish seems, uh like bad form somehow. Congrats again on the catch and kudos for the valiant release effort. |
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Posts: 8782
| Somehow, the idea of inexperienced anglers trying to vent or fizz a muskie seems like it would do more harm than good in most cases. I think, as others have said, that we all lose more than we like to admit to delayed mortality. The best you can do is... the best you can do, and accept that a few fish are going to die from being caught, and there's sometimes nothing you can do. I've never killed one that I know of, but I'd be a fool to believe that every fish I've released survived the encounter. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | TFOOT, thanks for posting that. |
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Posts: 457
| Tfoot - 8/19/2009 7:15 AM
As Jerry has mentioned, please do not fizz a muskie, or any other fish for that matter.
***Whooligan, I'm sure you are well intended, but my friend you have just described the location of the esocid heart!!**...You'd get some fizzing alright:-O
Escocids, and other soft-rayed fish have a direct connection with the swim bladder. In other words they can be burrped. This may be one reason for the behavior we know as porpoising.
Odd, the biologist, that happens to be an esocid manager, is the one that told me to do it exactly like that. Furthermore, I've done it successfully on several fish. |
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Posts: 21
| Dont poke holes in fish!!! Thats all we need is a bunch of people punching holes and not nowing what there doing.
2nd point is everybody on here has different ideas of how to do this and this works but this doesnt your wrong im right, makes me sick, fish die! do your best and move on for hell sakes. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It's differing ideas that allow us to learn, and to acquire new and important viewpoints and even information. |
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| To the guy who has killed several fish because they are hooked deep.... Try a HOOK PICK, they save lives..... |
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| Worth a try with a hook-pick, but unfortunately it is not a magic wand like some people think it is.
Edited by Baby Mallard 8/19/2009 10:09 PM
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Dead 47 incher!