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Posts: 457
| There's a lot of debate around about the use of Bogas and similar devices, some say they do no harm while others say there is a lot of damage done. Luckily, there's a guy out there that has done some work on showing the damage they do to fish. When I was fishing saltwater a lot, I used the Boga; it seemed like the right thing to do for the fish, less handling, less damaging, right? Not so much it would seem. We do a tremendous amount of damage to fish in using them, not just soft tissue damage, but long term damage resulting in delayed mortality. "Most" muskie fishermen are aware of the damage done to fish in the landing period, from the time they're in the bag to the time they are released. Yet, we still see a lot of people using the Boga or another sort of device. We know the best option for landing them is a knotless mech net, some of Frabill's new conservation series being a "one up" on a traditional net. My question is this: What can we do to eliminate the use of the devices? I'm not turning this into a crusade, but there's got to be a better way to land those fish. There's got to be a better way to handle them. Do we approach net manufacturers to build a better net for specific applications so that a net may be used rather than a boga? Do we go the route of providing long term tracking of fish that are landed using said devices, and seek legislative change? Do we approach the anglers and guides on an informational basis and ask them point blank to change the practice? I think it is essential that we do something to change it, it's something that is so easy. We take so many steps in other areas to be stewards, why are we still killing fish that we go to great lengths to protect and release by using a Boga on them? Attached is a study done on the damage done to bonefish by Bogas. The incidence of damage is shockingly high. As is the incidence of post release mortality. Granted a muskie is not a bonefish, but the effects are thought to be the same in most cases, regardless of species. So, how do we make the change?
edit: The study file is 375K and I can't edit it, so I can't attach it. That said if anyone is interested in reading it, which I would encourage you to do, I can email it, pm it, or maybe have one of the moderators post it.
Edited by Whoolligan 8/18/2009 11:15 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm fairly certain possibility for legislative action would be zero. IMO, the best route is to educate the anglers, and hope the mechanical devices go the way of the old sucker 'swallow rigs'.
Send the file to me at [email protected]. I'll post it as soon as my satellite goes out of 'fair access policy exceeded' mode. |
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Posts: 147
Location: Milwaukee, WI | What if you leave the fish in the water while using it ?
Hold the fish with one hand on the Clamp & the other hand uses pliers to remove hooks.
I don't own one, but figured this might be a viable method for situations where space for a net is not available or practical. For example: wilderness portage lakes while fishing from a canoe.
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Posts: 457
| snaggletooth - 8/18/2009 12:46 PM
What if you leave the fish in the water while using it ?
Hold the fish with one hand on the Clamp & the other hand uses pliers to remove hooks.
I don't own one, but figured this might be a viable method for situations where space for a net is not available or practical. For example: wilderness portage lakes while fishing from a canoe.
It's been shown that holding a fish in the water with a "boga" can do enough soft tissue damage to greatly increase the rate of delayed mortality. There have been few, if any, instances shown in which a boga is an acceptable tool that will increase the survival rate. They're just a bad deal for the fish from every aspect. |
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Location: Illinois | I've heard that in some instances (to stabilize the fish while unhooking them in the net or for a full water release), boga grips can be a beneficial tool to use. I recently bought one but haven't put it to use yet. I could see it coming in handy eventually though. I don't fish alone for skies much, but would consider using a boga for when I do for the unhooking, allowing for more space between the hooks and my hand/arm. I would sign a petition to stop boga "holds" on all pike and muskie. Perhaps you can start an organization and buy advertising spaces in outdoor magazines like Musky Hunter. First, edumacate those in your nearby circle- fishing clubs, at the boat landing. You should also focus on proper musky holds and need to be at tons of fishing shows educating kids and the mass public. In other words, a lot of work. Good luck and take my suggestion on keeping it local. It's great you want to make a difference, so change the things you can and accept what you cannot. If you are seeing them used on your home waters, here's an idea of getting your message across non-confrontationally. Make a concise flyer explaining how hand hold muskies, and explain that using boga-grips to lift a fish causes permanent harm- leading to increased delayed mortality. Leave it on the windshields at the boat launch. Have your area musky club offer discounted memberships for anyone who turns one in(not that the product by it self is bad). Just my ideas. Keep it as simple as possible and remember some will NOT be receptive to your advise on the water. Fisherman kill muskies, not boga grips.
Edited by muskellunged 8/18/2009 1:15 PM
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Posts: 255
| Or is it worse if an angler tries to grip the fish via the gill plate and accidentally drop the fish in the boat on a hard shake. That happend with a couple experienced anglers on my home water resulting in the 49 inch hybrid musky they caught being found dead on a shoreline 2 days later. |
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Posts: 457
| You're completely correct in that fishermen kill muskies, but it's accelerated by methods of incorrect handling, such as the case in the poster below you. It's the fact that through some manner, be it education or otherwise, we can help to lower that number, particularly in the case of Boga Grips. |
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Location: Illinois | It's been shown that holding a fish in the water with a "boga" can do enough soft tissue damage to greatly increase the rate of delayed mortality. There have been few, if any, instances shown in which a boga is an acceptable tool that will increase the survival rate. They're just a bad deal for the fish from every aspect. Is there any release method instance that you can show that DOES increase the survival rate? What a ridiculous statement. (sarcasm: wow- no boga studies report an increase in survival rate?) I appreciate your care for fishes health but to discount it's use as a safety measure for you and the fish in CERTAIN instances is extremely short-sided. AS I mentioned earlier, I haven't used one yet, but I got a good one on sale from Cabelas a while back. Whether it ever gets used, I dunno, but if I do- it will be for the benefit of both fish and I.
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Posts: 212
| The study also states that they are testing on bonefish, a soft mouthed gamefish where the boga is damaging the mouth of the fish when thrashing occurs. I'm sure there is damage done to a musky and I don't support the use of them, but when you're stating the facts make sure everyone knows the whole story. Anytime you vertically lift a fish, whether it's by the gill, by the lip, by the eye sockets, or by the tail, you're going to do damage to it.
link:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6N-4SP3...
Edited by PamuskEhunt 8/18/2009 1:39 PM
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| muskellunged - 8/18/2009 1:11 PM
It's been shown that holding a fish in the water with a "boga" can do enough soft tissue damage to greatly increase the rate of delayed mortality. There have been few, if any, instances shown in which a boga is an acceptable tool that will increase the survival rate. They're just a bad deal for the fish from every aspect. Is there any release method instance that you can show that DOES increase the survival rate? What a ridiculous statement. (sarcasm: wow- no boga studies report an increase in survival rate?) I appreciate your care for fishes health but to discount it's use as a safety measure for you and the fish in CERTAIN instances is extremely short-sided. AS I mentioned earlier, I haven't used one yet, but I got a good one on sale from Cabelas a while back. Whether it ever gets used, I dunno, but if I do- it will be for the benefit of both fish and I.
That's just it, there's enough research stating that no matter what you do with it, the device is damaging, period. I fail to see how that is a short sighted statement, really. Release methods that increase the survival rates? Using the correct size net, with a knotless bag, versus using a Boga or cradle plays a large part of increasing survival rates of released fish.
Furthermore, the statement that Boga's will help to increase survival rates is a claim they make on their website. No research has ever been shown to back that up.
You say that you'd use a Boga only in the issue of benefit of safety for you and the fish, there isn't an instance where a Boga will benefit the fish, that's the whole point. There are other things, such as a glove, correct handling, a proper net, that will be of more benefit than a Boga.
Let's put it to these terms: 90% post release injury and decline of overall health, including greatly increased rates of post release mortality with a Boga. Over 98% survival rate with no measureable damage when not using such a device. |
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| PamuskEhunt - 8/18/2009 1:36 PM
The study also states that they are testing on bonefish, a soft mouthed gamefish where the boga is damaging the mouth of the fish when thrashing occurs. I'm sure there is damage done to a musky and I don't support the use of them, but when you're stating the facts make sure everyone knows the whole story. Anytime you vertically lift a fish, whether it's by the gill, by the lip, by the eye sockets, or by the tail, you're going to do damage to it.
The fact that the study was done on bonefish is mentioned in the initial post. I agree that any improper handling is going to encounter damage; it comes to correct handling which a Boga isn't showing to be a part of. (FTR, studies have also been done on Tarpon with have far harder mouths than a muskie, and damage was more severe to them by comparison.) |
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Posts: 170
| This past week's edition of the Lakeland Times seemed like a dang commercial for Boga (Bogus) Grips...nearly every musky had one clamped to it's mouth.
(personally, I'm not one to rag about stuff like this, because I don't think the grip does any more (less I'm sure) damage than an Eagle Claw through the jaw, but it's the fish 40"++ that are free hanging vertically that bother me)
Edited by JimLang 8/18/2009 2:49 PM
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Location: Illinois | Whooli- you said "That's just it, there's enough research stating that no matter what you do with it, the device is damaging, period." Show me a musky study. A Bonefish study is apples and oranges. Even if a musky study ever did materialize- there are just so many variables involved to assign the blame or not. All's I'm saying is that I've heard some reputable anglers say they can be used with minimal if any harm shown to the fish. Don't judge a guy as some anti hand hold wimp if you see a Boga Grip in his release box. You are allowed to have items on board JUST IN CASE. I would think (maybe I'm wrong) that a guy fishing solo in heavy waves could use a boga to get a quick release. You're leaning over your big bag, the boat is rockin in 2-1/2 footers, and there's an angry 46 incher with a mouth full of trebles. You can tell he's tired from the fight though and you worry you might have to execute a full water release. I don't speak from experience but I like to plan ahead and think WHAT IF. I cringe when I see the musky pics of the boga variety too. I think you are envisioning nothing but worse case scenario, which is fine, because they might damage quite a few fish. All's I'm saying is you can never have enough release tools. Might not use em, but you'll be so thankful when they save you by saving a musky.
Edited by muskellunged 8/18/2009 3:08 PM
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| Never used one but wince every time I see a photo of someone holding a large muskie by the lip with that Boga. Muskies are not built to be hanged, in the air, by the lip. The pics make it appear that the fish's gill area is both stretched out and bent. Why not hook a scale to the net to determine weight? |
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| muskellunged - 8/18/2009 3:06 PM
Whooli- you said "That's just it, there's enough research stating that no matter what you do with it, the device is damaging, period." Show me a musky study. A Bonefish study is apples and oranges. Even if a musky study ever did materialize- there are just so many variables involved to assign the blame or not. All's I'm saying is that I've heard some reputable anglers say they can be used with minimal if any harm shown to the fish. Don't judge a guy as some anti hand hold wimp if you see a Boga Grip in his release box. You are allowed to have items on board JUST IN CASE. I would think (maybe I'm wrong) that a guy fishing solo in heavy waves could use a boga to get a quick release. You're leaning over your big bag, the boat is rockin in 2-1/2 footers, and there's an angry 46 incher with a mouth full of trebles. You can tell he's tired from the fight though and you worry you might have to execute a full water release. I don't speak from experience but I like to plan ahead and think WHAT IF. I cringe when I see the musky pics of the boga variety too. I think you are envisioning nothing but worse case scenario, which is fine, because they might damage quite a few fish. All's I'm saying is you can never have enough release tools. Might not use em, but you'll be so thankful when they save you by saving a musky.
Fair enough, I understand your process a little better. |
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| The guys out East will do the Boga one better — they'll gaff the musky through the lower jaw and pin the fish to the side of their boat to unhook it. They think the guys in the Midwest kill fish with their nets. Meanwhile, the guys in the Midwest use nets and think the guys out East are killing fish with their gaffs.
But the muskies keep getting bigger out East and in the Midwest. |
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| Advertize in Musky hunter, that's funny! Have you seen Joe Buchers show? He's the poster child for the boga.
Dan Crooms |
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Location: Mt. Zion, IL | I have the berkley one. I have found it to be very useful during the release/revival for fish that are slow to take off. A friend of mine, whom I wish not to mention, told me never to pull a fish backwards to revive it. I clamp the grip to the jaw WITH THE FISH IN THE WATER and use the TM to revive the fish. It allows water to pass over the gills in the proper direction enabling the fish to breathe. When the fish shows fight, I simply reach down and undo the lip grip. Am I harming a fish by doing that or saving its life? Ban a lip grip device? When is enough enough? Use common sense and educate the masses if you want your fishery to survive. |
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Location: Kodiak, AK | RyanJoz - 8/18/2009 7:02 PM
I have the berkley one. I have found it to be very useful during the release/revival for fish that are slow to take off. A friend of mine, whom I wish not to mention, told me never to pull a fish backwards to revive it. I clamp the grip to the jaw WITH THE FISH IN THE WATER and use the TM to revive the fish. It allows water to pass over the gills in the proper direction enabling the fish to breathe. When the fish shows fight, I simply reach down and undo the lip grip. Am I harming a fish by doing that or saving its life? Ban a lip grip device? When is enough enough? Use common sense and educate the masses if you want your fishery to survive.
Agreed. I do the same thing.
I'm a fan of the Boga when used properly. I've used one for almost ten years now and it's all about using it properly. Yes, they are a scale, but hanging a fish by one from the lip is improper. Landing a salmon/steelhead/pike/muskie while fly fishing on foot by yourself in the back country with no net is proper use. The Boga has helped me land more fish than I can count because I can gain control of the fish right away and keep the fish in the water the whole time.
Anything can be used improperly. Hang a 30 lb muskie from the lip is improper, but using a Boga to manage a fish in the water is excellent use of the tool. |
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| Man up and grab the fish. |
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Posts: 484
Location: St. Louis, MO., Marco Is., FL, Nestor Falls, ON | I am one of those muskie fishermen who routinely uses a Boga Grip to handle fish in the net while removing hooks. Used properly it is better than having a muskie thrash around in the net with multiple hooks in it. It is also better than multiple hooks in your own hand. I have been using a Boga for at least 10 years without ever experiencing damage to the jaw of a muskie. It is also a good tool for reviving fish in the water. You can lead them around circulating water over their gills without removing slime by holding them. There is a problem when you try to use a study on a soft mouthed fish like a bonefish and compare it to a hard mouthed, thick jawed fish like a musky. It would be like saying, "Lip hooking a carp with a Boga grip consistently produced soft tissue damage to the carp's mouth. Often resulting in tearing and interfering with the fish's ability to feed successfully in the future." Every statement there is accurate, but not applicable to other species of fish which are not soft mouth. I applaud your concern over minimizing damage to muskies; but results from scientific studies must be only applied to subjects that have very similar parameters. You are comparing a crappie with a muskie. Won't work. The logic does not flow. |
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| Edit
Edited by esox50 8/19/2009 3:51 PM
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| How do you have better control of the fish with a true Boga? Don't the jaws rotate on a shaft? If the fish can spin as it twists in the water or the net, how is it under control? I used my Boga a few timesn and did experience better control. What would I need to do to keep the fish under control? |
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Posts: 556
| I have 1 and have used it on several 45" class fish and have found it to be a wonderful addition to my release tools--- I never use it on the smaller fish or would I ever hang a fish from it--But I think it has a time and a place and can definately aid in hook removel / safety / revival of the larger class fish. |
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| Last post should read...
I used my Boga a few times and did not experience better control. What would I need to do to keep the fish under control? |
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| triton1 - 8/18/2009 6:48 PM
Man up and grab the fish.
I agree, what are we, a bunch of babies we can't handle a fish? Maybe it should be called the "Boo Hoo Hoo" Ga grip. |
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Location: Minneconia | St. Clair muskies love Bogas |
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Location: Mayer, MN | triton1 - 8/18/2009 6:48 PM
Man up and grab the fish.
I heard your boga should coordinate with your skirt.  |
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| I am curious what type of soft tissue damage is done with Muskie sized hooks on both bone fish and Muskie...I have no doubt a 9 foot rod, 100lb superbraid, and a DC 10 will make a bone fish beg for a bogs the next time around... |
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| rpieske - 8/18/2009 6:54 PM
I am one of those muskie fishermen who routinely uses a Boga Grip to handle fish in the net while removing hooks. Used properly it is better than having a muskie thrash around in the net with multiple hooks in it. It is also better than multiple hooks in your own hand. I have been using a Boga for at least 10 years without ever experiencing damage to the jaw of a muskie. It is also a good tool for reviving fish in the water. You can lead them around circulating water over their gills without removing slime by holding them. JimLang - 8/18/2009 2:17 PM
This past week's edition of the Lakeland Times seemed like a dang commercial for Boga (Bogus) Grips...nearly every musky had one clamped to it's mouth.
(personally, I'm not one to rag about stuff like this, because I don't think the grip does any more (less I'm sure) damage than an Eagle Claw through the jaw, but it's the fish 40"++ that are free hanging vertically that bother me) I think these are some very valid points. I've never used a Boga and don't plan to but I think that they can be used in a way that is less harmful to a fish compared to other release methods.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Here's the article:
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/08.19.2009/2549/An.evaluat...
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Posts: 87
Location: Minnesota Metro | The boga have been a very valuable tool for me and my wife. I personally just grap the fish, but my wife simply lacks the strength to hold a muskie, especially a decent one without help. She is barely 5 feet tall and weights all of 90 pounds, so she just can't get a good grip on a muskie, just not strong enough.
We will still net the fish at boatside and unhook it there, but to hoist it up for the picture she will use the boga while still supporting the fish's belly. It actually works out pretty well and is safer for her and the fish that way. |
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| In the last 3 years, I can think of at least 2 big fish that were saved because of the lip grip. I'm sure there have been others. A fish 3 years ago in the 53"-54" range had a double ten deep in the throat area. While keeping the fish in the net/water I was able to get a good grip on the fish in a fast manner. When a fish is hooked that deep you don't have very much time to get those hooks cut/out or it will die. Anyways, I was able to get it unhooked and kept it in the water the whole time and she swam away. She was bleeding a little, but being in the fall the cold water had a lot to do with her survival. The other one was this year on a 52" fish that totally swallowed a pounder where you coudn't see the bait. I held the fish with the lip grip and my buddy was able to use a 10" knipex that he slid through the gills to cut the hooks. Not easy, but she did swim away. I use the lip grip as a release tool on deeply hooked fish while the fish is in the water. As far as reputable fishermen using these tools, watch "Go Fish", Jerrys buddy uses one effectively on a fish that was hooked pretty good. I think it's important that when these fish have been hooked badly or it took someone longer than it should to get it unhooked, to forget the ego and not take the fish out of the water for pics.
Edited by Baby Mallard 8/19/2009 12:22 PM
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| Quit fishin 'em - 8/18/2009 4:14 PM
The guys out East will do the Boga one better — they'll gaff the musky through the lower jaw and pin the fish to the side of their boat to unhook it. They think the guys in the Midwest kill fish with their nets. Meanwhile, the guys in the Midwest use nets and think the guys out East are killing fish with their gaffs.
But the muskies keep getting bigger out East and in the Midwest.
I agree, I grew up using Beckman nets and still have one in the boat, but having learned how to use a gaff from some of the most responsible Muskie fishermen out there it is the way I use most. I think the gaff is easiest on the fish and much easier when fishing alone. The technique falls on deaf ears for the most part, but quality of the fisheries and the dedication of the anglers out east that use the methods, speak for themselves. Ben |
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Location: Ohio | PamuskEhunt - 8/18/2009 2:36 PM The study also states that they are testing on bonefish, a soft mouthed gamefish where the boga is damaging the mouth of the fish when thrashing occurs. I'm sure there is damage done to a musky and I don't support the use of them, but when you're stating the facts make sure everyone knows the whole story. Anytime you vertically lift a fish, whether it's by the gill, by the lip, by the eye sockets, or by the tail, you're going to do damage to it. link: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6N-... Jesus, do people actually lift Pike & Muskie by the eyes still? I was told years ago that lifting by the eyes is a certain death for the fish |
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Damage done to fish with mech lip grip devices?