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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Mexico.
All the Mojo's are made south of the boarder. There's an ad in June's issue of TackleTrader World. The company down there is called Axiom, looks like St.Croix bought them. | |
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Posts: 646
Location: In a shack in the woods | I think they are moving the triumphs from china to Mexico too. | |
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| pretty big exaggeration to say "St. Croix's New Country of Manufacturing" there, Heibs.
their entry-level Triumph rods have been made overseas for awhile now - they sell too many of them to make them all in Park Falls and production costs need to be kept down in order to sell rods that cheaply. my understanding is that the Mojo rods are one of the top-selling bass rods, so production capacity is an issue with those rods too.
Legends Tournaments? hand-made in the USA...and worth every penny.
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Posts: 1058
Location: Medford, WI | Couldn't agree more with Lambeau about the Legend Tournament series rods. I got a replacement rod for an Avid that was out of production and can not believe how light-weight and smooth the rod is. I'm one who always believed that "a rod is a rod" (for the most part), but after having one of the Legend Tourneys, I have a very different opinion. | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Its an exaggeration if it wasn't true or it was a partial truth. St.Croix's newest facility is in Mexico. Nothing exaggerated about it. I never said they were moving or all they're rods would be made there, if you don't like the thread title, change it.
I also heard that the Triumph line up may be moved there. The Chinese plant where the Triumphs are made isn't owned by St.Croix, the're a vendor. This new facility is in partnership with them.
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Posts: 1270
| It wouldn't surpirse me to see all St, Croix production going out of the country soon. I don't have any inside information or anything it's just my gut feeling. They first sent the Triumph series overseas to see what people thought about St. Croix's being built overseas and they sold very well. Now the Mojo is made in MExico and they can't keep up with production. For all those who claim they want there rods made in America we are not seeing that they will buy one's made overseas. Especially when they see the prices drop and quality remain the same or even increase. | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I'f I'm paying 365.00 for a rod, it better be made here. If St.Croix moves all production to Mexico, GLoomis here I come.
If you think St.Croix will lower prices if they move all the production to Mexico, you're wrong. That will do nothing but lower brand value. If I bought a Legend Extreme jig pole this year for 365.00, and next its 300.00 but made in mexico, it tells me they're cheap or made by using cheaper labor, which makes me suspicious.
While I do sell alot of Triumph rods, I also get alot of "no thanks" after I explain where they're made. MADE IN THE USA is a major selling point for St.Croix. "Fish with a Mexican Legend" sure as hell doesn't sound right in my book. | |
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Posts: 569
Location: Williamstown, WV | Gander Mt. Guide,
I Agree 100% with you Sir! That is why our country is going down hill because let's just get everything made elsewhere. I try to always buy American made and if everybody else did too maybe these companies would take a hint.
Shawn | |
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| It looks like China is starting to pass some workers rights laws. Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the move to Mexico? Yep, market segmentation works better when you only have to pay 20 cents an hour to some poor Chinese girl who has to work 16 hours a day, but I'm pretty sure they could still make a profit making them in the USA. But that's not enough, is it? There's more money in exploitation. Glad to see China starting to rectify that, but India is next in the queue. I wish there was such a thing a "conscientious capitalism", but that's probably an oxymoron. Buy American when you can, it might not do much in the grand scheme of things but it makes me feel better. | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If it's made in Mexico, it IS made in America, and North America at that. Just a point.
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| If it's made in Mexico, it IS made in America, and North America at that. Just a point.
ha! so is socio-fascist Venezuela if that's your standard...
Viva la Raza and all that, but in terms of industrial regulation, workers' rights, environmental laws, etc., Mexico is most definitely not America...it's more like Mars in comparison to what's in place here north of the border.
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| O.K., I DID say buy American and not made in the USA, which is technically wrong. Although, the term "America" is generally accepted as ambiguous in the English language and is often used to describe the United States. Especially, when used in the context it was. Still, thanks for pointing that out Sworral, that was absolutely necessary, and I'm sure you did it just to clear up all of the confusion I created. Right? | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sam,
I've spent a fair amount of time in Mexico, and they are sensitive about that. The term 'America' or 'American' is misused alot. Yes, we live in America. So do the folks in Mexico. That's not a 'standard', it's geography.
lambeau, politics and who's in power aside, people are people. I believe Isolationism won't correct social, political, and 'moral' wrongs across the planet, and there's plenty of that right here in the US to correct, too. That's not what the issue is anyway. Big picture, it's a world out there and our 'economy' is global. I see it as just plain hypocritical to hoot 'BUY AMERICAN' about St. Croix, yet our single most discussed topic lately is which reel to buy, one made in Japan, Sweden, China, or Korea. It's also somewhat short sighted to call buying from a vendor in Mexico or Viet Nam or China exploitation. Check out what the economy in each country is like, and what's considered a 'living wage' in each...they ain't the US and won't be for a very long time...if ever. If a new factory is built producing a high quality product, people have to work there, and in most cases it means a boost to the economy and more 'living wages' than was available there before. If it's our goal to see all workers everywhere make what we do here in the USA, it should also be our goal to see to it the cost of living is the same while we are at it, or it won't work.
Money and the ability to be 'socially revolutionary' are not mutually exclusive (witness the comment above about China and workers rights regulation), that's for sure. Folks who have 3 squares a day are more likely to seek social reform than those scrounging for one because they can focus. Yes, I agree, many revolutions have occurred to correct exploitation, but 'Bout every 'revolution' that HAS occurred south of our Texas line to date was funded in part by Super Powers and fought with arms made in China, Russia, and the US. Buy American in this case means Buy USA!
So to me buying a reel, rod, or lure made in 'somewhereland' isn't a social statement, it's a decision based upon value and quality. If the value and quality of a USA built brand is there, I'll buy it. It isn't a humanitarian or social or even political decision for me, because of reality. If I want social reform in India or China or Mexico, I'll try to get politicians elected who share my belief structure. | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | sworrall - 8/1/2009 10:48 PM
If it's made in Mexico, it IS made in America, and North America at that. Just a point.
Funny you mention that. Axiom's logo is "Axiom.....North America LLC.....Premium Fishing Rods". | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Marketing is wonderful, isn't it? | |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Now if anyone of you were into Enthusiast Bass rods and reels the best are made in JAPAN, Evergreen, Megabass, Daiko, Gan Craft, Daiwa Ito, has anybody seen a Shimano Conquest ????? go to http://www.plat.co.jp/shop/catalog/default.php?cPath=22_81_1335 and take a look at some of the best reels in the world, all made in Japan. Take a look at the Gan Craft KILLERS rods at http://www.plat.co.jp/shop/catalog/default.php?cPath=22_80_352_425 Even the new record bass is from Japan, the IGFA is still cking it out. | |
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| Well, the third acceptable definition in Webster's dictionary for "American" is: a citizen of the United States. So since we are splitting hairs here, technically I didn't misuse it. Look it up.
You say it's hypocritical to discuss buying offshore manufactured reels, but that would only be true if we had any other choice. If I recall correctly, some people brought up Avet, but they don't have levelwinds so they didn't apply. The difference is we have a choice in buying a rod made overseas and one made in the United States and we don't have the same choice in reels. How is that hypocritical?
There has been much discussion lately that our economy has been "reset" at a lower level. A recession implies recovery to a pre-recession level, and that isn't what is happening. We aren't growing and, yes, that is due to the global nature of our economy. Tell me Sworral, do you think capitalism is self correcting? If not, then we do have some responsibility, don't you think? We've known for a long time that a free market ultimately creates a rigid division of wealth, and that the private sector needed some supervision. There has to be some regulation, and that is what the Buy USA trend is an attempt to do. Successful, or not, you shouldn't berate people for trying. You made the point that the other countries standard of living isn't the same as ours so it isn't exploitation, and there is some validity to the argument that they aren't the USA, but then neither are we anymore. We are headed down while they are heading up. Eventually, maybe we WILL all be the same, but not through their elevation.
I don't know where you were going with the revolution thing. And the reference to isolationism doesn't really apply. The Chinese were isolationist for centuries and all it got them was behind. Encouraging Americans to support manufacturing in their own country isn't the same thing as isolationism, now is it? You seem like a smart guy, maybe a little smug, but smart. Let me ask you this: If you were running a small company with 20 employees, and you found out you could double your personal income by laying off all your employees and moving over seas, would you do it? | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If I'm 'smug', you are 'smugger'. So there, name caller.  If 'smug' is having a a strong opinion and expressing it as best as I am able in the language we all were supposed to have learned in school, I'm smug. So are you, I'd say.
Third definition isn't best when discussing NOT buying from a North American country and saying 'buy American'. Context.
If I buy a rod from St Croix made in Mexico, I AM buying American. If I bought a rod from a Wisconsin based company paying high Wisconsin taxes and provided them profit banked in the US, I bought American.
Anyone who thinks we can pull back from a global marketplace is, in my very humble non smug opinion, delusional. If anything, we need to export more, the US consumer is way to directed to lowest price/best quality for the buck to be all Stars and Stripes about their buying decisions at this juncture.
Our economy isn't growing because of incredible greed and worse, non existent regulation on all things Wall Street and the 'banking' industry, and our model for heavy manufacturing (autos especially) is broken..badly. We had to bail it out...and will have to for awhile longer. A big readjustment is due there if consumers world wide are to buy USA built autos. Buy USA as a 'movement' isn't correcting regulatory problems or forcing the USA builders to build and sell autos and other products US consumers will buy, the correction occurring from a very deep recession is, and that only because we bailed the banks and auto/truck builders out. Otherwise, they'd be gone. The USA was fat, lazy, and rolling in 'profits' from the insane decade of the 90's, and we got our collective fannies handed to us by our own lack of foresight and control. Now we beg our government to force us to be responsible. I didn't berate anyone for trying to suggest we buy USA, I pointed out the irony of the motivation behind that plea; we claim to be self righteous, but only IF we can easily get exactly what we desire from a USA builder. If not, all bets are off.
The 'revolution thing' was directed to lambeau.
So we say we should not exploit the low wages paid in Mexico or China and shouldn't until the standard of living and government there equals ours or meets with our approval, yet we
buy billions of dollars worth of the products built there and encourage them to buy our stuff.
On one hand, we claim we should not buy ( and that means, by proxy, import) goods built in other countries, on the other we say that isn't isolationist economic behavior. In any event, the US consumer speaks with their buying power, and we buy HUGE volumes from China. Hypocrites are we; or not?
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| why in the world you're arguing semantics about the proper use of the term "American" is way beyond me...in common use it refers to the USA.
sheesh.
The 'revolution thing' was directed to lambeau.
misdirected, more accurately.
if you review what i posted, i said that "buy American" only works when the American-made option is high enough quality to support the increased organic costs of production in this country...ie., if you're going to keep production here where it's more expensive, you better make a good product, because an average product won't compete with lower-priced alternatives from overseas - that's why your clothes are all imported: there's no quality differences in t-shirts or jeans to justify the higher labor costs here in the U.S.
there's plenty of quality fishing gear brought in from overseas, and there's also a lot of junk. generally you get what you pay for no matter what the "Made In" label says on the bottom of your rod or reel or lure or whatnot.
if you make a product of high enough quality to distinguish it from all the lower-priced competition, people will be willing to pay for it regardless of where it's built. rather than shouting the "Buy American" mantra, a better approach would be to encourage "buy quality". if more people demanded quality, and were willing to pay the extra costs for it, American production costs would be more competitive.
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| Yeah, I got it. The United States is part of America, no need to reiterate that. Look: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/american. You can use it either way. Is it ethnocentric to refer to US citizens as Americans. Yes. But you still can, and we all know what it means. Who cares? It wasn't that clever, so get over it.
Actually, I agree with much of what you said in your last entry. Although, I don't know how we are going to export more when our manufacturing is all going overseas. What are we going to export? Kind of a Catch-22 that. I saw this the other day and thought it was cute: http://www.storyofstuff.com/index.html
A little elementary for you guys, but still pretty thoughtful. It goes along with what Sworrall was talking about being directed to lower price products. A very valid point. Indeed, it would be naive to think we can pull back from a global marketplace, but you said yourself regulation is needed, and I wholeheartedly agree. One of the problems is with the model (it's cultural too, but let's just leave that alone). Capitalism is the best system we have IMO, but it isn't perfect. it feeds on exploitation whether in this country or in others. The gov't had to step in before (remember Teddy Roosevelt) due to the inherent problems with the model. Greed is just a byproduct, and is actually encouraged. We needed regulation then, and we need it still. I never said we should never buy goods manufactured in other countries. I said "Buy American when you can, it might not do much in the grand scheme of things, but it makes me feel better." That's isolationist? Really? I meant we should support what few companies are left manufacturing in the USA i.e. St. Croix. I, for one, tend to buy them because they are made in the northwoods, and to me that means something. If it's an exercise in futility then that's just the romantic in me. I'm still going to buy them when I can, and I will hate to see them leave. Sometimes we can't buy American, due to price or quality or whatever, and that's fine too. Just plug all your arguments in there. Buy American when you "can", that's all I said. Do guys really need called out by you, and given an elementary economics lesson, because they like buying a rod made in musky country and hate to see it go overseas? You keep wanting to make sweeping generalizations, and put words in peoples mouth. Misdirection is great in magic, but I find it tiresome in debates.
Anyways, sorry if I kicked up a fuss, I'm through with this trivial BS. I still have enormous respect and appreciation for Sworrall as a fisherman. You've helped me many times over the years, and I thank you. I'm a much better fisherman due to your participation on this board, as are many of us here......even if you are a little smug. No hard feelings, Sam Vimes | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I wasn't being 'clever', Sam and lambeau, I was being accurate because I have experience as to how the rest of North America feels about being geographically redefined by us smug 'Americans'. Sort of a stickler that way, and no apologies. It's our 'Ours is the only definition' attitude that makes us Americans soooo popular elsewhere.
Regulation is needed in banking and heavy industry if we are going to basically socialize both businesses and remove the most rudimentary free market principle in Capitalism...make money or fail and go away. I said regulation is needed in the banking and auto industries, not the free market. I'm a Milt Friedman fan and have been since High School, can't help it, I guess.
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'Sometimes we can't buy American, due to price or quality or whatever, and that's fine too. Just plug all your arguments in there. Buy American when you "can", that's all I said. Do guys really need called out by you, and given an elementary economics lesson, because they like buying a rod made in musky country and hate to see it go overseas? You keep wanting to make sweeping generalizations, and put words in peoples mouth. Misdirection is great in magic, but I find it tiresome in debates.'
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No, I never said that, Sam. I said:
I didn't berate anyone for trying to suggest we buy USA, I pointed out the irony of the motivation behind that plea; we claim to be self righteous, but only IF we can easily get exactly what we desire from a USA builder. If not, all bets are off.'
What Muskie rod are we talking about?
I put no words in anyone else's argument, I refer point by point. I could do it using a listing of points, but that IS smug...I assume everyone reading this all the way through is perfectly capable of seeing correlation.
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lambeau actually has somewhat the same attitude I do, buy quality and those who are not competing will either improve quality, sell for alot less, or go away. US companies can and do compete globally and we export products of all kinds. I don't for a second think the USA is washed up in that regard, we simply have to retool, rethink, and pay more attention to our competition. Eventually the circumstances that create opportunity because of low social and environmental standards will equalize IF the overall acceptance of 'free trade' remains viable; I personally hope we're well down that road. We polluted our waters, killed our workers, and nearly wiped the life from one of our greatest assets...the Great Lakes, and eventually figured it out...sort of.
lambeau,
"ha! so is socio-fascist Venezuela if that's your standard...
Viva la Raza and all that, but in terms of industrial regulation, workers' rights, environmental laws, etc., Mexico is most definitely not America...it's more like Mars in comparison to what's in place here north of the border.'
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Hardly misdirected, my comments were directed to this statement; not all that disagreeing with and actually expanding upon your comments. And those socio-fascist 'folks' are in South America, by the way, a small but to the Mexicans important distinction.
All of this added to this thread on a Dell XPS made in China.
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | Did Mexico change their laws, because I know in the past it was illegal for foreign nationals to own a majority interest in Mexican companies/businesses. You had to have a Mexican partner own 51% of the business, or seek an exemption which were rarely granted for anyone other than large corporations such as Ford.
Did those laws change with Nafta, or are exemptions easier to come by now? | |
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Posts: 620
Location: Seymour, WI | I want to buy a Buick Rendevous. | |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | The Buick Rendezvous was produced at General Motors' Ramos Arizpe, Mexico assembly plant, where it shared an assembly line with the Pontiac Aztek. | |
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| dang...in my attempt to point out American-made crap i inadvertently added fuel to the American owned but foreign-made crap argument?
gargh. the global economy is too confusing. NAFTA be #*^@ed, we should close the borders to all trade. it'd be simpler to understand. pretty expensive, but easy to understand at least.
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | castmaster - 8/2/2009 10:26 PM
Did Mexico change their laws, because I know in the past it was illegal for foreign nationals to own a majority interest in Mexican companies/businesses. You had to have a Mexican partner own 51% of the business, or seek an exemption which were rarely granted for anyone other than large corporations such as Ford.
Did those laws change with Nafta, or are exemptions easier to come by now?
I work for a NAFTA company. We have branches in Mexico and Canada that we own 100% of. The Mexican office answers to our CEO here in the US. | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Update: We just got our 2010 St.Croix catalog. The Triumph as well as a couple fly rods are made in Mexico now as well. | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | St.Croix isn't hiding it either. They have "country of origin" logos on each brand. | |
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Posts: 139
| Not to muddy the waters, but when I called St Croix about the availability of a LT rod in early July, I was told by the rep that it was out of stock and wouldn't be finished for a month because Park Falls was also producing some of the Mojo series first because their Mexican factory couldn't keep up with demand. I'm sure the rods built here in the USA are to the exact specs that the ones in Mexico are, correct? | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I bet they are. | |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Same components, same equipment, different hands doing the work. | |
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Posts: 375
| i do not understand why you folks think all is the "same". since no one from st. croix chooses to post anything concerning "all is the same" in writing to that effect maybe we all should "think" that all is not the same!... i'm just sayin... | |
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| Hard to say, really. They could be exactly the same, or they could be like a MIM Fender Strat vs. a made in the USA Fender Strat. Mexicans probably work in both factories, it's just all about components and quality control. Nationality of the worker means nothing. | |
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St.Croix's New Country of Manufacturing