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Posts: 29
Location: Gananoque Ontario | I am going to start making my own fluorocarbon leaders with 130lb, 150lb, or 180lb seaguar using a nail knot, crimp, and glue. My first question is where can I get the right crimp and how do I pick the correct size for the diameter of fluorocarbon 130lb/1.17mm, 150lb/1.26mm, or 180lb/1.38mm? My second question is which crimpping pliers work best and where can i purchase them? My final question, is there a specific type of glue to use to seal the knot? Not sure if any type is corrosive to the fluorocarbon. Thanks for you help.
Reed Findlan |
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Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Not sure about the crimps, as I don't crimp any. As far as glue goes, any standard type of super-glue works just fine, and is not harmful to the flouro. If you are not sure, a test will never hurt. Just cut off a 1or2" piece, put some of the glue on it, and see what happens in the next few hours. |
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Posts: 292
Location: SW MI | You'll have to get double barrel sleeves from Stamina to do fluoro that large. Check their site and they'll have the diameter so you can get the best one that works for you. |
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Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | This is the style pliers you need for double barrel crimps. Most tackle and terminal tackle suppliers carry them:
http://www.muskyshop.com/modules/cart/products.php/nav_id/28/page/1...
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Posts: 626
Location: ashtabula ohio | yes that is the correct tool to get. check out leadertec.com for explanations of different crimpers and crimping techniques. i learned those techs. and have not had a fail yet. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Regarding the sleeve size, just find the size in mm of the line (looks like you've done that), and then search the net for leader sleeves. If you look at a few sites many of them will list the sleeve size, and that the maximum diameter line that will work with those crimps/sleeves.
You want to pick the smallest sleeve possible that the line will slide into. Also make sure you get the double barrel sleeves, and the proper swager (crimper) like the one shown in the link. You need one that has cup to cup jaws like this (), and not point to cup like criming pliers for wiring are. That leadertech link will explain a lot of this stuff.
curleytail |
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Posts: 29
Location: Gananoque Ontario | Thanks for the input guys, this is really helping.
Reed |
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| Or you could just get a Stealth Tackle Leader and you won't have to worry about anything.
MIKE HULBERT |
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Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Mike Hulbert - 2/9/2009 9:40 PM
Or you could just get a Stealth Tackle Leader and you won't have to worry about anything.
MIKE HULBERT
I would, if all I had to do was say this, and I get them for free too.  |
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Posts: 29
Location: Gananoque Ontario | That is also a good point Mike, which i am also considering. Have you had much experience with the Stealth trolling leaders? Do you ever have any signs of wear where the swivel or snap attach after longer periods of trolling larger lures like Jakes, Plows, Hookers?
Thanks,
Reed |
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| I don't troll, so sorry, but I do know that he sells a TON of them out east and there are zero issues what so ever. You simply can't go wrong with Stealth Leaders.
HULBERT |
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| It will save you money over the long run by making your own. Stealth leaders work just fine but it is nice to make your own. Trolling leaders are just a longer version of a casting leader. 3'. Not too hard to make or figure out.
the crimper is about the biggest expense. Fluoro, crimps etc are cheap.
I would not recommend trying to tie 150 or 180. A double barrel crimp with mushroomed tag ends pulled tight will not fail.
Been making (and selling a few) of my own for 5 yrs. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Jackpot, why don't you recommend tieing 150 pound fluoro? I just started making some fluoro leaders and I tied up some 150 lb Seaguar. It seemed to tighten up just fine, and wasn't too hard to tie. I think the knot I tied is the nail knot. Here's a link to the one I tied: http://www.thenextbitetv.com/images/site_images/lees_leader_knot.pd... I also plan on crimping them just for added measure.
curleytail
Edited by curleytail 2/10/2009 10:03 AM
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| I guess if you find a good knot and want to tie, go for it. I think you will find 180 to be too stiff.
IMO I don't think it's needed, I have tested 150 and 180 with just a crimp and they have held unbelievably well with my weight into them. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I would never trust a crimp alone. The knot is the muscle behind the leader. The crimp is pretty much on Stealth Leaders to clean up the tag end.
If you want 150-180 pound SEAGUAR leaders that are tied correctly, then again, I would highly suggest just giving John with Stealth Tackle a call.
Edited by MikeHulbert 2/10/2009 1:17 PM
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| Mike,
I have used 180 lb fluoro, crimped only, for 5+ yrs, with plenty of my friends and other people using them bought from me. something like 600 or more fish on them to 40+ lbers. guess what, zero failures.
crimping when done correctly with the right sleeves and crimping tool is just as strong as tying..I have put my weight into them hanging from a nail in the garage...I doubt you will catch a musky as heavy as me....
to say that crimping should not be trusted is just another one of your closed minded statements...sort of like, there are no fish on that rock bar. comical.
I understand you want to push Bette's product but c'mon. you simply don't know what you are talking about w/ regards to crimping 180. imo. |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Couldn't agree more BN! |
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Posts: 2015
| Add another 200+ over last 5 for me as well (on 100 and 130 lbs) - If properly crimped you will have NO issue......Oh, and its $2.50 per leader to make your own.
Edited by IAJustin 2/10/2009 3:50 PM
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | i knew the fish numbers were gonna get thrown on the table at some point haahhha.  :-)
payin your taxes on them sales brad, woops i mean jackpotbay?
i could also argue that there is nothing wrong with knotting 150 or 180. i can get a good clean knot up to 200#. i have guys using them who boat a ton of fish as well. bottom line is use what your comfortable with and leave it at that. if your comfortable with a certain style or brand then use it. if your comfortable making your own, then make them.
thanks for the support mike and others !!!!! it goes a long way! |
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| a great tutorial on the subject ...
http://www.ofncommunity.com/forums/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid... |
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Posts: 292
Location: SW MI | The only two muskies that I've caught were on leader that I made. I use 130# with Lee Tauchen's knot and a couble barrel crimp. I figure if knot and crimps are good on their own, why not use both? Heck, I might even start gluing them too. |
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Posts: 2015
| Esoxonthefly421 - 2/10/2009 4:22 PM
The only two muskies that I've caught were on leader that I made. I use 130# with Lee Tauchen's knot and a couble barrel crimp. I figure if knot and crimps are good on their own, why not use both? Heck, I might even start gluing them too.
right!!! and if one crimp is good why not use 3 crimps + 4 knots??? A single crimp will retain 95-99% of leader test - the same as a knot + crimp. |
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| Is their really that much savings in making your own?
I agree that if you were able to buy 18" of Flouro, one snap, one ball bearing swivel and a set of double crimps, a savings could be had.
But now factor in not having and needing to buy a Fas-tie and crimper. So in your effort to save a few bucks, you now have purchased tools and supplies that would be enough for making 25 leaders. So now you have a supply of leaders that will last you for the next several years, unless you are on the water 150 days a year, or you are now selling them.
If you are selling them, you will find yourself spending a ton of time in your basement tying leaders to undercut the market. The "legit" market that has a tax ID, donates to clubs, outings and works shows.
If it's part of the fishing addiction and your have sharpened all of your hooks and in need of filling your time, God Bless. If your goal is to undercut the market, best of luck. I think you will pretty quickly come to the realization that tying leaders is far from glamourous. In order to make it worth your while, you will rarely if ever find yourself ahead by any significant money. When you are only looking to make $1-2 per, you'll have more money tied up in inventory and purchasing more supplies that you will never actually be "up" money. To achieve any true economies of scale, you must buy in bulk. In order to save when buying in bulk, you need a tax ID to pay wholesale, or you are simply paying retail and not saving much.
In any event, if its making leaders to sell, do yourself and the other "QUALITY" leader makers a favor and make a quality product. The flouro market has a lot of eyes on it and people waiting to cry foul for leader failures. Tie good ones, or none at all. |
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Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Hooper - 2/10/2009 6:42 PM
So now you have a supply of leaders that will last you for the next several years, unless you are on the water 150 days a year.
What???!!! Only 150? I couldn't DREAM of only being on the water 150 days! LOL!! I do save money making my own. I did the math, and I save. Plus, I enjoy doing it. I don't do it to "screw over" the leader makers, I do it for enjoyment. |
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Posts: 552
Location: deephaven mn | another yes crimps work just fine. but i do believe you need to mushroom the tag end with a lighter. when crimped and
mushroomed correctly 100 lb test braid will break at the knot before the crimp gives way. based on pull tests.
another reason to tie your own is leader length( i prefer mine to be a 15").
knots seem to snag more milfoil also |
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Posts: 2089
| WTF!! I spent 15 minutes last evening typing a very insightful response and ......the thread got frozen. Now it's unfrozen. What gives??? |
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Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Alright, Steve... I'm all ears (eyes). Let's have it! |
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| WTF!! I spent 15 minutes last evening typing a very insightful response and the thread got frozen. Now it's unfrozen. What gives???
lol...sometimes a timeout gives the Superego time to kick in and get some rather poorly managed Id's under control.
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Posts: 1023
| Feel free to pick on this idea but I simply tied two loop-style knots at each end and then put a glob of 5 minute epoxy over the knots and tags. I have never had one fail and the epoxy makes a nice, clear, smooth and weedless mini ball over the knot and tag. ( I have never hooked a muskie over 46" on these leaders though - so use at your own risk). |
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Posts: 292
Location: SW MI | I think in the end as long as you're using muskie appropriate components, whichever way you finish you leaders is completely up to you as long as you're confident that it will safely handle a muskie. I prefer a knot and crimp on mine, I like redundency. |
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Posts: 2089
| Hahahahaha!! Uncle Sigmund. I love to start the day with a chuckle. Oh yeah, with proper crimps and pliers, just crimping should be fine. Salt guys and gals have been doing it for years on fish that would eat or drown a muskie. I made my own for 25 years but now use Stealth Leaders exclusively. Why? Great components and attention to detail . Also, buying all the components to do it myself, I'd spend over $100 easy(Sampo/Spro swivels aren't cheap). With clients, I go through a bunch each season. I'll leave the leader making to the Professional. And no, I don't get 'em for free.LOL. Steve
Edited by Steve Jonesi 2/12/2009 1:14 PM
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Posts: 231
| I'll give another plug for Stealth (no, I don't get them for free LOL) I have used all different brands, from factory to home made. I have even made a few of my own that seemd strong & passed my personal weight tests that I put them through. With this said, I just would rather buy them through Stealth. I have beat them to death ,like I'm sure alot of you others have, and I'm amazed at how they hold up.!
I admire you guys that make your own, and share with friends. I just don't have the time with two boys who play travel baseball. So one it comes to having to buy my own, I don't think there's any leader that holds a candle to Stealth. Again...(JMHO).
Also, sometimes I think it's hard to get a read of peoples "Intentions" through a "Key Board". I say this B-cuz I have fished with Mike Hulbert before, and I never once saw where mike was "closed minded". I thought just the opposite, I thought Mike was very open minded, and worked his a$$ off for me. No......... Mike did not prompt me to say this (LOL) I'm just an average joe who's lucky to get out 12-15 times a year.
Chas
Edited by Chas 2/12/2009 9:53 AM
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Posts: 2015
| Steve Jonesi - 2/12/2009 9:13 AM
Also, buying all the components to do it myself, I'd spend over $100 easy(Sampo/Spro swivels aren't cheap).
You do need to make a one-time investment of a quality crimp tool $30, but this will last a lifetime. I use the Sampo/Rosco Barrel Swivels (American made) in the 225lb test and they are .25 cents each. String Ease Stay-Lok Snaps are about .30 cents each... I can make a ton of leaders (like 50) for $100.
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| the biggest beating a leader makes is throwing and working a bait.
I agree that the salt guys have been simply crimping leaders for years with success, but I doubt they have tried to heave a Pounder have way across a lake that resulted in a backlash.
there is not a fish in the world that puts the stress/ shock to a leader and line that a backlash does. when you fight a marlin, the rod and drag are working for you, when you backlash its 200 mph to 0.
I'll take the tied and crimped leader. |
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Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | I make my own because I like to. I also make the majority of the baits I fish with, and have made three of my rods myself. Do I save money doing it? No. My work bench looks like Larry Dahlberg's basement. I've spent more money experimenting with baits and leaders than my wife needs to know about. However I enjoy the time I spend doing this stuff throughout each winter. It's what gets me through an otherwise miserable season. Sounds like a few people on this board would benefit from a winter hobby. |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | sounds like some guys know how to crimp a fluoro leader and be good,about 5-6 yrs ago I bought one from rollies that was crimped(not sure if it was hard mono or fluoro)that I think was a smittys brand.Well I put it on to see what it was like and got a snag,got over top of the snag and gave it a rip and the crimp gave,luckily the lure came out also and floated to the suface.After that I started using knotted and crimped fluoro from charlie who sells them on ebay, with no fails,and also tried out the stealth with no fails,now I use both kinds,both are great.The only leaders I make are on my sucker rigs,I`m too lazy to make all my leaders so I buy them,no way I`m gonna sit around and make leaders all day,too lazy for that. |
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| I found myself very intriqued by this post. As a result I went out and obtained a few crimpted only flourocarbon leaders. One of them a very well known brand.
FYI
I did not run just a weight test, but a stress test with pulling twisting bouncing and jerking. Every crimpt only flourocarbon leader eventually failed at the crimpt. The one 130lbs seagur tied only still has yet to fail on the same test. It is night and day the durablility of the hold compared to the crimp only. I presume if given enough time it will likely fail at the loop where the snap or ring is on and not at the knot??
In the future I will be tying and possibly crimping, but am now scared to use a crimp only based on my results. Confidence is nearly everything in fishing. |
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Posts: 3868
| I make mine with 80# Climax and just tie them, no crimps. I can't imagine why a crimp is necessary when just knots have never failed me or anyone I've given/sold them to. I also don't understand why folks need flouro over 100#. Wouldn't such a stiff heavy leader compromise the action of various lures?
BTW - I use Extreem Mike's design on making the leaders. Hope he doesn't mind the mention.
Last, c'mon, lighten up on Mike Hulbert. I think he's just a intense dude, works his a$$ off and really wants to get things right. This is a totally unsolicited opinion; in fact, I don't think Mike cares for me at all!
Congrads to the Stealth sucess, another good guy.
Edited by Ranger 2/15/2009 11:15 AM
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| stop talking more fishing good guyes |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I have made my own leaders for several years now. There's nothing to fear, if you understand what you need to do...and why. First of all, the technology is pretty much exactly the same as crimping collar (sleeves) on cable. Any aircraft you've ever been on has a bunch of crimped cables--I'll guarantee that. Anyone who says they don't trust crimps, has no clue how to crimp. A couple of million aircraft flying around seem to have no problems with the technology, and neither will you...providing you take a bit of time to learn the technique, and practice making leaders. Sleeves MUST be double-barreled, as mentioned already. Do not use single barrel sleeves. Also, don't crimp right to the very edge of the sleeve. Rather, leave the last 1/16th of an inch or so uncrimped. The crimping tool should have a flare on the outer edge, so the edge of the sleeve curves away from the leader material at the sleeve ends. It's simple, and once you see it, it will make perfect sense. I learned how to crimp sleeves onto cable many years ago in aircraft mechanic's school, and it's a simple and easy technique to learn. All it takes is a little practice.
Using 135-pound nylon-coated cable (from Seven-Strand), I make trolling leaders for use on Green Bay. I also make them out of 100-pound Seaguar fluoro, but only for friends who want them for clear lakes. I see no need to use these in the south of Green Bay as there's nothing *stealth* about fishing in water with 2-3 foot visibility. Actually, the color of the nylon-coated steel leader material perfectly blends with the discolor of the water, and the things are virtually invisible in the water anyway. But we've caught numerous fish in excess of 30-35 pounds, without a single problem. I've tested the crimped ends to failure a couple of times, and the cable always fails first.
I use Berkley #5 ball-bearing swivels, and a Malo tackle black delrin "tuna ring" on the distal end of the leader. The swivels are rated to 175-200 pounds, and the black delrin rings are rated to about 350-400 pounds as I recall. Massive overkill. I also use the 400-pound split rings to attach the lure, so there is no chance of a snap opening. I can take some pictures of the completed product, if anyone is interested in the components.
I have absolutely nothing against Stealth leaders, because I've used them in the past and they seem to be very good. But the nice thing about making your own leaders is that you are then set up to refresh the ends as needed. For instance, I will routinely cut the swivels and about 3-4" of leader material off the ends of the leader, at the first sign of any kinking in the material. Kinks are stress risers, and sources of potential failure. And when you fish in an area like Green Bay where you are one hit away from a huge fish, why would you ever take a chance on your terminal tackle? Sleeves are all of 2-3 cents each, and it takes all of 5 minutes to refresh the leader. I have several made up and ready to go, so I can just cut the line at the leader (which you should do anyway, after a big fish) and attach a new leader. Then I refresh the old leader while I'm trolling. I carry a 1000-yard spool of the 135# leader material.
All told, I have about $150-200 into leader making materials and supplies. If you buy high-quality ball-bearing swivels (about $4 each) and the tuna ring (about $3 each), you can make your leader for well under $10 each. But then the terminal components can be re-used time and time again--as they are so much stronger than the actual leader material, and thus are far from the weak link.
I have no interest in selling these leaders, but I'll gladly show anyone who is interested how I make them. With only a little investment of time and money, you can learn how to make your own leaders correctly. Then you can refresh the ends as needed, instead of trying to get every last cast out of the one you've purchased. Not that there's anything whatsoever wrong with buying leaders if you don't want to make your own mind you, it's just not for me...
TB
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Posts: 112
Location: Nielsen's Fly-In Lodge, on Rowan Lake | Just forget the crimps forget the knots just use a single wire good snaps a good swivel and eleimenate what ever else can go wrong at the moment of impact beacuse thats when many hearts are brcken and the pain is there forever just keep casting Don |
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Posts: 230
| knooter - 2/12/2009 6:42 PM
I make my own because I like to. I also make the majority of the baits I fish with, and have made three of my rods myself. Do I save money doing it? No. My work bench looks like Larry Dahlberg's basement. I've spent more money experimenting with baits and leaders than my wife needs to know about. However I enjoy the time I spend doing this stuff throughout each winter. It's what gets me through an otherwise miserable season. Sounds like a few people on this board would benefit from a winter hobby. :-)
Amen, brother.
I make my own leaders because I enjoy it, and frankly as an 18 year old kid I can't spend $5-7 for every leader I use. Plus I get very good deals on leader making materials, so why not. |
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Fluorocarbon leader crimp/sleeve