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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Today at work someone said something about boats and said they were wondering how many fishing boats were sold every year. I have no clue at all anymore. Anyone have any numbers for any of the manufacturers?
Ranger, Tuffy, Crestliner,Lund and princecrat to mention just a few.
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | National Marine Manufacturers Association. |
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Posts: 1529
| i bet with this downturn there will be manufatures going bankrupt.. my thoughts are.
who will survive ?? |
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| things are definitely hurting, and that impacts manufacturers, dealers, and even the secondary market.
the Madison Boat Show this weekend is much slower than normal. we spoke to one dealer who only talked to 3 people on Friday night; we were there on Saturday and it was pretty thin. this was nice for spending a cold afternoon poking around looking at boats, but probably not so good for selling boats.
many boat companies are owned by larger corporations. if they do more than just boats it might help them weather the difficulties. that's a big factor in how valuable your warranty is...the company has to exist to honor it. for that reason i'm personally very relieved that Fiberdome (owner of Tuffy) is well diversified and actually growing right now.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Brunswick has already shut down several boat builders and cut back others, but the fishing boat companies so far have been weathering the storm despite that Dealers are hurting. Default/delinquency on floor plan interest has never been higher, and some floor plan companies are not allowing new purchases for many dealers now, which will hurt. Over all, I think most will be OK, but the boat business may never again be what it was in the mid 90's. |
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Posts: 360
Location: Tinley Park. Fish Cen IL. Bass & Vilas Cty.Muskie | This is hearsay.I heard Ranger use to make 120 boats a day and in October they were making 80 a day.
Edited by basscaster 1/25/2009 9:39 AM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | the gears may shift into other markets including refurbishing materials and services. i did it and would think there are others out there who have and are considering just stepping backwards buying used and then doing some restoration projects that modernize or update them. i'm happer and smarter with my "new" '95 boat than i would have been buying a brandy new shiny one.
this year i'm putting new model seats in it and an improved steering system along with some electronic upgrades. a little trailer repair, maybe update the trailer with a coating of that bed-liner stuff on it too. old classics restored can look like new, be more rewarding and run just as well as new ... |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I believe 30 a day for a fiberglass boat builder is a very respectable number. I think I remember not all that long ago Tracker was number one in the total boats built category building 30K plus.
http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20070825145709ibinews.html
Keep in mind second quarter is a good one in the boat business.
Used is hot now, especially those that can be purchased in the low to mid teens or less, so I bet Sled is on to |
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Posts: 1317
Location: Lebanon,Mo | Tracker will shudown one of there aluminum plants this month in Bolivar,Mo. and move those models to the aluminum plant here in Lebanon,Mo.
120 people without jobs now,bad deal. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | One good thing that will come out of slower boat is that used boat sales will be hot as steve said. If you have a used one to sell you'll probably do allright with it. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | well here in indiana, i live in a town where 3 boat manafactures are rinker/smokercraft/polarcraft ect.. they are working building boats but i think rinker is building more that the others.. they still have not done any layyoff's that i know of.. the rv plants are the ones hurting....bill |
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Posts: 78
| I don't think reality has set in for a lot of people yet. This recession is probably going to last for the next four or five years at minium! The stock market is not going to recover very fast because all of us baby boomers are to old to invest in it. (Not much time until retirement) |
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Posts: 620
Location: Seymour, WI | The baby boomers entering retirement need to be invested in the market more now than at any time in history as many of them will spend 30+ yrs in retirement. Many do not have traditional pensions anymore. Their assets will need to grow or at least stay level as they draw on their retirement savings.
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Posts: 699
Location: Hugo, MN | basscaster - 1/25/2009 5:38 PM
This is hearsay.I heard Ranger use to make 120 boats a day and in October they were making 80 a day.
I love my Ranger but 60K for a new 621 is completely out of control! There is nothing you can do to convince me of anything different. Hopefully this will brings the costs back to reasonable level. |
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Posts: 273
| The boat industry has been punched in the gut pretty hard over the last year. One observation I have noticed while checking out boat ads on numerous sites is that the high end used boats are still for sale, but the under 15k aren't. I think a lot of people are holding on to there old gems instead of stepping into something new. Used 620's are a dime a dozen, while the 17 foot aluminums are harder to find for sale. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "things are definitely hurting, and that impacts manufacturers, dealers, and even the secondary market."
Just spoke with a Merc engineer. He said its scarey right now, every day he goes in hoping and praying, he's already used 2/3's of his vacation time. Said, "The only market Merc can work with success is yachts. Those are the only folks spending money."
You'll be seeing alot of aftermarket parts and accessory sales. Make the boat you want instead of buying it. |
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Posts: 619
| marine_1 - 1/26/2009 2:01 PM
basscaster - 1/25/2009 5:38 PM
This is hearsay.I heard Ranger use to make 120 boats a day and in October they were making 80 a day.
I love my Ranger but 60K for a new 621 is completely out of control! There is nothing you can do to convince me of anything different. Hopefully this will brings the costs back to reasonable level.
OH MAN, i completely agree, 60K for a Ranger, OMG!!!!!!! Really how much does it cost to make??? Its all what your willing to pay......my percieved value on how much i would pay for a brand new 620 Ranger w/ a 225 Yama is about $ 30K... i cant believe how much they charge for a boat like those, i an 08 Alum Nav. , wish i had a new Ranger. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I never did understand why a 250 hp outboard is about 20k and I can get a 250 hp motor for my truck for 1/3 that. |
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Posts: 619
| Gander Mt Guide - 1/27/2009 10:30 AM
I never did understand why a 250 hp outboard is about 20k and I can get a 250 hp motor for my truck for 1/3 that.
I agree, have asked myself that all the time, i can get a new motor in my SUV for approx $ 5K give or take...........I AGREEEEEEE, WHY??? Why would i have to pay almost $10k for a 100HP boat motor approx (give or take on that $10K)... anyone? |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Slow Rollin - 1/27/2009 10:17 AM
Gander Mt Guide - 1/27/2009 10:30 AM
I never did understand why a 250 hp outboard is about 20k and I can get a 250 hp motor for my truck for 1/3 that.
I agree, have asked myself that all the time, i can get a new motor in my SUV for approx $ 5K give or take...........I AGREEEEEEE, WHY??? Why would i have to pay almost $10k for a 100HP boat motor approx (give or take on that $10K )... anyone?
I think if you had to replace the whole engine, transmission and drive train (controls included), you may find a more reasonable price comparison. Replacing a motor in an auto is analogous to replacing a powerhead in an outboard. An outboard is the whole package. But I agree, they are an expensive package.
S.
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I bought my entire 2006 Dakota V8 for 21 grand.......NEW. I'd be lucky to get a new 250 Verado for 20K. |
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Posts: 366
| An outboard is more comparable to your SUV engine, transmission, differentials, and ect, ect. More like replacing your entire drivetrain and then throwing in the cost to enclose all this equipment into a nice shiny fiberglass case with fresh paint and a few cool decals. Volume also reduces the cost on your truck/suv motor where as the number of outboards that they make is considerably less. |
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Posts: 366
| you must also look at the space that this equipment requires in your Dakota and then compare it to the volume that a Verado occupies. Not much of a comparison, yet I'm willing to bet that your boat takes up pretty close to the same volume of space as your truck body. That type of engineering isn't as easily accompolished. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | My ENTIRE truck has a shiney metal casing. |
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Posts: 619
| i am not yet being sold on or justifying the cost of boat motors yet.....i wonder if the market/pricing will drop dramatically on some of the motors where it becomes a little more affordable on a beer budget??? |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I was just looking at pricing on line and I came across a web page for the state of Florida. It gave msrp and what they paid for all sorts of Merc motors. I wish I could find the link again and I'd post it, but the MSRP of a Verado 250, I believe it was CXX or something like that, was 19.9+, the State of Florida paid 12+.
The 12+ I can see and sorta understand. The 20k, not really.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 1/27/2009 11:49 AM
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Well, I'm sure there's something to the whole supply and demand thing...
It seems to have hit the automotive industry, the recreational watercraft industry is probably on it's way. For instance, I was pricing new trucks in 2002 (for 2003 models). The 4-door cab was all the rage and kind of a new novelty at the time and demand was high. I couldn't touch a 4-door 4WD half ton for less than 33K. I got a flyer in the mail last week where a local dealer was offering the same truck (or at least comparably equipped) for about 27K after all of the incentives, etc. That was for a 2009!
So as people's disposable income tightens, their willingness to spend $$$ on toys will hopefully drive the prices down a bit. If there truly is a 35% difference in Gov't vs. public pricing, there is obviously room for some price reduction.
I'd hate to see the outboard industry in line for government bailouts/operating loans though. |
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Posts: 431
| Your truck engines have been around for a long time. 4 stroke outboards haven't been around all that long, and none have incorporated a supercharger before. They have to recoup R&D costs. As with most things, you have to really pay in order to be the first to play. |
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Posts: 619
| i can see $12k for a 250 Verado.....my perceived value of 09' 620 Ranger w/ 250 Verado, total package costing no more than $30-$35K to the consumer (selling price).. just seems like that would make so much more sense, than todays prices which seem so unreal??? |
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Posts: 443
Location: Indiana | Where are they selling a 620 for $60K? Last year I got a new one with an Evinrude 225HO, pretty well decked out and didn't pay any where near that! |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | mseybert - 1/27/2009 3:56 PM
Where are they selling a 620 for $60K? Last year I got a new one with an Evinrude 225HO, pretty well decked out and didn't pay any where near that!
There's a used 2008 620 in the Classifieds selling for 50+. Maxed out with a 250. |
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | Outboard are more expensive to mfg, just due to shear volume of sales, compare the numbers of motors GM or ford manufacture compare to # number of motor merc pushed out. cost of tooling up, R&D, and overhead to support that line. Not enough unit sales to spread the overhead cost out. When economy was good no one complained to much about spending the $$$.
Troyz |
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Posts: 529
Location: Not Where I Want To Be | A buddy of mine spent 58500 on a 07 620 fully decked out. I was looking at a 619 in 07 which was 53000 at the time decked out. I paid 33500 for my 619 in 02 decked out and wish i still had it. I just couldn't justify a 20k jump in 5 yrs. I have no problem with research and development. But have any of these manufacturers ever heard of word INFLATION? The average employee gets a 3% raise if there lucky. This country needs to get back to a little common sense.
The example of the trucks tells the tale. Why can i get a new 09 truck for 26k When my 03 was 33k? And the new ones are better built and get better gas mileage. Makes no sense. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It isn't just the highest priced rigs that are not selling, it's all the way through the pricing structure out there. Bound to drive average/overall prices down, that's how supply and demand works. |
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| GMG, your analogy is right but your model is wrong, you need to compare that 60k ranger to a 60k Suburban, This means your 20k Dakota is in comparison to something like a ....................14' alum with a briggs and stratton! |
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | "Used 620's are a dime a dozen" Where do I get in on that deal? It appears to me that a lot of folks are upside down with the loans on their rigs. They may want to dump the payment due to the economy, but still need to get their pay off to avoid a deficiency. Tough times in this "new day". Kim says I can buy a (used) 620, but I can't justify the asking prices I am seeing. Maybe I'm just tight!  |
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Posts: 619
| dcates - 2/19/2009 12:41 PM
<p>"Used 620's are a dime a dozen" </p><p> Where do I get in on that deal? It appears to me that a lot of folks are upside down with the loans on their rigs. They may want to dump the payment due to the economy, but still need to get their pay off to avoid a deficiency. Tough times in this "new day". Kim says I can buy a (used ) 620, but I can't justify the asking prices I am seeing. Maybe I'm just tight! : )</p>
Thats just it........alot of people could pay for one or make payments on one, but I just cant justify paying the price of these types of boats....one boat i think is a little more in line w/ my pecieved value is a Tuffy....a little better value for the price paid to what you get in value.
Edited by Slow Rollin 2/19/2009 3:07 PM
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Posts: 273
| Dime a dozen as in there are a lot of top end boats for sale right now. Boats in the 10-15k range aren't showing up in the boat ads like the 25-40k boats. Check out walleye centrals classifieds it is full of 620's. Some of the boats have been in the classifieds for a long time. You would think some of those boys would be ready to cut a deal to dump there boat. |
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | The Tuffy line looks good. A local guide has one on order, and I intend to take a close look at it once it comes in. The problem with Tuffy is the lack of local dealers near my home (northern Indiana).
I'll continue shopping, but my 12 year old debt free Stratos keeps looking better and better. |
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Number of boats sold?