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| This is why spearing shouldn't be allowed on our BROOD lake. This is a very common problem and we have caught fish that have survived encounters like this.
Very sad and definately a problem that needs to be stopped.
Click on the following link to view the fish:
http://www.forum.minnesotawaterfowler.com/viewtopic.php?t=12471
Contact our DNR Office and tell them that this needs to stop:
Bemidji Area Fisheries Office
2114 Bemidji Avenue
Bemidji, MN 56601
218-308-2339
[email protected]
Please take one minute out of your day and give them a call or send a quick e-mail to our local office and tell them that spearing on Musky Brood Lakes needs to cease.
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Posts: 727
| What were they trying to spear? |
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| They were trying to spear northern pike which is permitted in MN. Spearing muskies is illegal. There are more muskies than pike in this lake and it is also a brood lake. That means that the DNR uses these fish as a large part of their efforts to stock other lakes. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Kevin, if you know these guys have them drop me a line. We've got the DNR Round Table coming up in the next couple weeks and I'd like the full scoop on this first hand if possible.
Thanks,
Shawn
612-201-0209. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Shawn,
They are a friends of a friend. I can get them to call you or get their phone numbers for you. This is a huge problem up here and it has been brushed under the rug when dead fish are found or speared fish are caught. |
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| When you guys see or hear of this anywhere in MN call Shawn or post it up. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I have a few pics of speared fish I can send you Shawn. Can you post your e-mail address? |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | [email protected] |
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Posts: 699
Location: Hugo, MN | I hope someone has the balls to turn these idiots in. I have heard more than a couple of morons refer to the Muskie Spear and Release program up there since the Muskies eat all their Walleye. . . |
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| Unfortunately, the reality is that things like this happen a lot more than we would like to think it does. Everyone (muskie anglers) does a good job of acting like it doesn't happen. Maybe that is their way of not going insane. |
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Posts: 193
Location: Mayer, MN | My understanding is that the individuals in the images are not responsible for the spearing, but for the recovery of a speared muskie. Officials have been notified from reading the forum contained within the link. I hope everyone understands this and that these guys in the photos are not the "idiots". Correct? |
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| what's the name of the lake ,could you send me the [email protected] |
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Location: Hugo, MN | lots of luck - 12/30/2008 4:11 PM
My understanding is that the individuals in the images are not responsible for the spearing, but for the recovery of a speared muskie. Officials have been notified from reading the forum contained within the link. I hope everyone understands this and that these guys in the photos are not the "idiots". Correct?
Since I'm the one who used the word Idiot I guess you're talking to me and yes I understand the guys in the photo were not the ones who did the spearing. And I should have added Kudos to those fellas for doing the right thing and getting the word out about this incident. |
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Location: New Hope MN | ouch... |
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Posts: 100
Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | It's not that everybody spearing intentionally spears muskies. The problem is that since pike and muskie appear so similar from above people may not be able to tell them apart. Many people believe pike get just as big muskies so they don't use size as possible difference between the two. Everyone's probably seen the DNR poster comparing the two species and noting the differences. Let me say that does not matter when a fish comes in slashing at a decoy. Time can be factor when a shot is presented, they don't always stalk it. I have witnessed this scenario. Any lake with a reputation of an abundant muskie population needs to have a spearing ban. I know there are lots of very passionate, ethical people that spear, but not everyone else is. Some muskies will always get picked off if spearing is allowed on muskie managed waters.
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| Spearing should be banned for either pike or musky, period. |
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Location: Hugo, MN | Sackett - 12/31/2008 3:14 AM
It's not that everybody spearing intentionally spears muskies. The problem is that since pike and muskie appear so similar from above people may not be able to tell them apart. Many people believe pike get just as big muskies so they don't use size as possible difference between the two. Everyone's probably seen the DNR poster comparing the two species and noting the differences. Let me say that does not matter when a fish comes in slashing at a decoy. Time can be factor when a shot is presented, they don't always stalk it. I have witnessed this scenario. Any lake with a reputation of an abundant muskie population needs to have a spearing ban. I know there are lots of very passionate, ethical people that spear, but not everyone else is. Some muskies will always get picked off if spearing is allowed on muskie managed waters.
Sorry but that's B.S. here's an excerpt of an e-mail from a Darkhouse buddy of mine "I've seen muskies while in darkhouse...there's no mistaking them for pike. unfortunatley they are a bit dormant (stupid) in the winter and very easy to spear if you choose. Musky Inc got their way on Cass so I can no longer spear there, however the Natives can and do spear not only musky but also walleye." IMHO, Most Muskie spearings are intentional. It is not that difficult to tell the difference between them. More importantly if you aren't sure you shouldn't spear the #*^@ fish. They should ban spearing on all Managed Musky Waters and Brood Stock Lakes. This has been an issue for many years and we've fought the fight on lakes like Plantan and French problem is whenever there is a meeting to discuss with the DNR 200 Darkhouse guys show up and the Muskie side is lucky to have 20. Apathy with respect to this cause could seriously hurt our resource and more inportant our sport.
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I recommend calling.
Here's the mass e-mail that we have been getting back as a response......
Thank you for your comments concerning the illegally speared muskellunge on Lake Plantagantte. Our local Conservation Officer is aware and investigating the incident. The musky was brought to our office for necropsy. It was not one of our PIT tagged muskellunge from the 2007 mark and recapture population estimate, but confirmed to be a large mature female in the 49-50 inch range.
As I am sure you are aware, northern pike spearing is a legal activity on a number of our natural and introduced muskellunge waters. When practiced responsibly it is legitimate sport providing considerable recreational opportunity.
Unfortunately irresponsible actions such as these do reflect negatively on dark house spearing in general. The fact that this mature female was removed from a brood stock lake will not have any noticeable affect on our muskellunge production program. We do collect muskellunge eggs from Plantaganette when needed but generally have no trouble collecting adequate numbers of brood fish to meet production needs. More concerning is the removal of a very large individual from a fishery where a recent population estimate confirms how scarce 50 inch muskellunge are in these populations.
Gary Barnard
Bemidji Area Fisheries Supervisor
218-308-2330
[email protected]
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Posts: 3155
| heres the best plan IMHO,,,,lets get the 8 new lakes were supposed to get designated and approved,,,,then go after a spearing ban on ALL designated muskie waters, once we have the eight they cant hurt us,,,the darkhouse assoc showed they dont care about whats right look at the BS they pulled on french lake sneaking through some obscure legiislator to get thier way,,,Im not bashing them this is documented history |
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Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | I don't like the idea of reducing liberty in the so-called land of the free. We pay fees to stock musky, and notherns are rarely stocked. Add a stamp to the license of those who wish to spear on musky waters (very high) to supplement the loss of fish. Make it visible on the outside of the darkhouse. Have a high fee $5K+ for those without the stamp and a reward of half that if you spot someone doing this. Keep the length restriction as normal 40", 44" whatever...
No one will want to spear on these waters, and we have maintained freedom. |
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Posts: 172
| i m not against spears. but i do agree on ban the spears on rest of the muskie lake but i think the probem is which lake is to ban? all lake that hold muskie or just lake that have good numbers of muskies or included the lake that have of muskie but they are there.. i dont think the ban on muskie lake wld hurt spearers.. land of 10 k lake and nearly all of them have pike. hows bans on 80-90ss lake gonna hurt the sports? kevin is right we have to chime in our opinions to our dnr offices and let them hear what we have to say.
matty |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I think banning on brood lakes is something that needs to be done. There are more muskies in them then northern pike. There aren't that many brood lakes in the state as well. That's not out of the question.
If you look at pg 77 of the MN Long Range Plan on the DNR website it shows that Elk, Little Wolf, and Plantan are not on the banned spearing lakes. These are the brood lakes. There is something wrong with this.
I encourage everyone to please call Gary at the number listed above and voice their opinions.
Thanks
Kevin |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Anytime the muskie community and the dark house guys come together it's always tenuous. I'm getting lines of dialog going with some of the key dark house guys. All I ask is that everyone keeps their cool and doesn't do anything that will make things worse.
It's difficult for both of our groups to see eye-to-eye. Our sport is based on conservation and catch and release. Theirs is based on the legal harvest of a known food fish. The majority of each camp don't seem to understand the other. This makes working together hard and emotional. |
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Location: Bemidji | Shawn,
At the bottom there is a star indicating that Brood Lakes are banned from spearing. This is on pg 77 of the Long Range Plan. So why is spearing allowed on Plantan? What brood lakes are banned and which ones are not. Seems kind of confusing.
Kevin |
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Posts: 75
| Kevin, we might also want to contact the Chamber of Commerce to let them know our concerns. http://www.bemidji.org/
They might not understand the amount of money muskie fishing brings to town compared to spearing on muskie lakes.
Money does talk and with the right local business support a local ban might have a chance. After all if you add up the tab for a place to stay, food out, gas, Gander, guides and Bluewater a muskie fisherman spends a few dollars.
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| BenR
how can you say that after what the spearers did with french lake?????? |
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| On another website it says this happened on Lake Bemidji. Can we get some clarification on this? |
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | As being master of our own demain, I will ? what we can control, why do we beat up on brood stock lakes, and bring such great pressure to these lakes. 1 got killed by a spearer, how many have been killed by musky anglers due to delayed mortallity. Who has put more pressure and stress on that fishery? Should we as anglers be beating up Brood stock lakes? These lakes are the future! I was told it was a unwritten rule no to fish them, yet alone make a living on these lakes.
Troyz |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | have you ever said anything to the guides about maybe not fishing the lake,does the dnr have different rules on brood lakes that helps the fish out more. |
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| Should we as anglers be beating up Brood stock lakes? These lakes are the future! I was told it was a unwritten rule no to fish them, yet alone make a living on these lakes.
i fish 2 of the brood stock lakes most every time i'm in MN, as they're both nearby my in-laws property.
on one of them, most days i'm the only boat out there even on summer weekends, and sometimes there's one or two others. it's fished, but i disagree that it's getting "beat up".
on the other (larger and more easily accessible), there's usually a couple other muskie boats, including a couple guide boats. i've never experienced it as what i would consider "busy", although over the course of the year it definitely gets it's share of fishing pressure. this is also the lake that the fish in question was speared on.
the idea of protecting the fish is laudable, and i'd personally prefer if all brood stock lakes were catch-and-release only and designated (no spearing); however, to suggest that people not even fish them goes too far, imho.
every report i've ever seen is that the DNR continues to be able to meet it's needs for variety and size of fish that they take brood from in these lakes. if that were to change and the DNR reported significant trouble meeting their needs, i'd be willing to entertain the idea of closing the lakes.
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| BenR
French lake is NOT ancient history this is recent history this just happened couple years back,,Working with the darkhouse spearers the DNR gave their recommendation and after it was all said and done the DHS went behind everybodys back recruited a politician who didnt really understand it and push through their proposal hidden inside another one, that isnt exactly an off the cuff task,, they sat down and put some real time and involved some people in planning this,,Talk about disrespecting the dnr I think this is about has "narrow minded" has you can get.
Edited by happy hooker 1/2/2009 10:12 AM
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| actually I know of a guide who 'pike fishes' on little wolf in may only thing is he isnt pike fishing and admits it.,,,, |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Mike
Take the ball and run with this one, just spent 3 hours in meeting yesterday about the future of MN, yet we cry foul when a spearer "Illegally" harvest a fish. Do what needs to be done, and sounds like that is already happening, inform DNR and give info to them, and let them do their job.
But now we should put forth the effort to fight a huge well organised group because "one person" did something illegal. Yet we can't get or "Musky People" to turn out to meetings about stocking new lakes, meeting, or fundraising events to help stock fish. We could fight all winter to save a couple of Violated fish or spend time in developing the fisheries.
I am not saying don't fish them at all, but this lake recieves heavy pressure and when guides are making a living on a brood stock lake, that is pretty sad in my mind, and many others. Why exploit a handful of lakes, if you want to fish them every now and then thats fine. Why do think these lakes are not on the International Tournament list, little self discipline goes along ways. We have already come to the agreement to work with the Dark House to move our fisheries forward, and not putting more lakes on the Banned Spearing list. We need to pick battle that will improve the fisheries and the working relationship between MI and Dark House and put up walls the prevents us from moving forward.
Troyz
Remember a founding member ended up with some bullet holes in his boat over this battle years ago, |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Brad,
The fish was speared out of Platan. I talked to the one of the guys that found the fish two days ago.
Troyz,
There are guides that camped on that lake ALL summer almost exclusively. I fished Plantan not more than 20 times last year, guiding there 5 days. There was more pressure out there this year than I have ever seen. I think that this also is a problem. I enjoy fishing the lake but there are so many other lakes in the area worth fishing that is doesn't make sense to only fish one. |
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Posts: 18
Location: White Bear lake, MN | I agree with BenR.
Ironically, you could have legally killed this fish last summer (over 48" on Plantag). If spearing is banned on these lake, then we should also eliminate the legal harvest of muskies on these lakes.
FYI Elk is catch + release only. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | That would be ideal but not likely to happen. Harvesting is not a problem with the musky fishermen up here and the DNR would come back with, "musky fishermen release 99.5% of the fish they catch anyway." They could also bring up the old school train of thought "what if someone wants one to mount." I think total catch and release would be more difficult to get than a spearing ban. I am in favor of it just not sure if it would fly.
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Location: Hugo, MN | Troyz. - 1/2/2009 7:06 PM
Remember a founding member ended up with some bullet holes in his boat over this battle years ago,
Frank was a Great Man. |
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Posts: 720
| I'm sorry guys and I don't mean to be disrespectful and I hope some of you don't take it this way. But the I know a lot of people who are in an uproar over this fish. They spout off about the facted that spearing is bad, guiding is bad and that our brood stock lakes should not be fished at all. These are the same folks that are the biggest complainers when it comes to fishing pressure. These are not OUR brood stock lakes. We piss and moan about the walleye, bass and pan fisherman. Yet we don't have enough smarts to look in the mirror. Musky fishing is a blip on the radar screen in the grand scheme of things. We only make up only 3 percent of the angling public. I think that our problem is this. First we aren't a very well organized group. When you compare us to other groups like The Rocky mountain Elk Foundation, Ducks unlimited, The Bass and several others. Organization as a group like MI is the only way to truly get our agenda's to get a serious look. Secondly, is this mentalilty that these stocked lakes belong to us the musky fisherman. I've seen this time and time again. A couple of guys are running a weedline and mom, dad and the kids pull in front of these two geniuses. They are completely oblivious to what they just did. Setting out snoopy pulls and uglystyx with bobbers. Instead of taking 30 seconds and saying hello and asking the kids how's the fishing. The guys in the musky boat start unleashing some of the most harshly worded training on fishing ethics that you can imagine. Then proceed to cast with in feet of their bobbers. Before anyone says this is an isolated incident I've wittness this twice this year and once by two anglers in my own chapter of MI. Its embarrassing as a human being and its completely inexcuseable as a musky angler. We don't have anymore rights to fish a lake than anyone else.
I think this is totally wrong. We are a small group and if we are going to get anywhere we need to take the approach that we are willing to work with everybody. WMRA showed us how well being a loud mouth, swinging at everything that moves bully worked. A great idea shot to hell because we couldn't work with the Wisconsin DNR.
In an idea world all of the above posts would be terrific. But its not idea and we don't have the numbers or money to be bullying people around. Again I mean absolutely no disrespect. I include myself in the musky fishing community and hope that things keep moving forward for your kids and mine. |
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Location: New Hope MN | Hunter4, Bravo. |
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| Anyone ever hear of a word that was used a long time ago and now seems to have been forgotten because it was old fashioned. Its called ETHICS. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Some have and display them, and some don't. Unfortunate, but a fact of the human condition. |
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| You're right. Thats where the other word comes in. Its called JAIL. |
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Location: New Hope MN | BenR - 1/5/2009 12:38 PM
I agree, point being you cannot legislate ethics.....
You are so right! |
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| I wonder if they teach "know the difference" in this class.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/janfeb09/fish_decoys.html |
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Posts: 32904
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | How about you volunteer to be a guest instructor for that segment?
Walleye pro Tommy Skarlis at the NPAA conference this last weekend:
" If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem'
Some truth to that some days, I guess. |
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Location: New Hope MN | sworrall - 1/5/2009 5:52 PM
How about you volunteer to be a guest instructor for that segment?
Walleye pro Tommy Skarlis at the NPAA conference this last weekend:
" If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem'
Some truth to that some days, I guess.
Remember there was a time when every musky caught was clubbed in the head and brought home for dinner. Now nearly everyone releases them. People got together and educated other anglers of the importance of CPR. It was all done voluntarily, not through the use of government (aka Bans).
It might not be a bad idea, for those concerned, to post pictures showing the difference between pike & musky on the doors of those dark houses. |
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| I would say Tommy is right on the money,
Maybe their should be a lure making 101 course and teach the importance of catch & release.
Know any instructors? |
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Posts: 32904
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | As asked of you once, why do you not volunteer for that segment? |
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Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | I'm a long way from Bemidji  |
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| Being this was a 50" class muskie speared and as far as I know there is not 50" pike swimming in MN, know the difference signs would of ment squat. Its called we hate muskies period! DC |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Or it was a person who saw the fish, speared it, and the rest is history. Maybe that person was impulsive, maybe that person didn't think, and just reacted and really feels bad about it now. Occasionally, well seasoned hunters shoot other hunters thinking that hunter was a deer...happens. Maybe it was intentional, and maybe not, but trying to lump everyone into one narrow minded classification that fits a popular reactionary position is not an answer. |
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| No other hunters shoot other hunters becouse they break the cardnal rule of gun safty, always know your target. Just as a spearer should know if on a lake containing muskies. I'm sticking with IRRESONSIBLE.DC |
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Posts: 32904
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Stick with whatever you wish, but you will get no where with that sort of rhetoric as far as any possible solution to darkhouses and what is speared on pike/muskie waters in Minnesota.
Those folks are well organized, working form a long tradition, very well funded, and a few folks who have posted here know already that past negative 'bullying' was counter productive. Working together is a much better idea, understanding each others position and working towards a solution acceptable to both sides of the issue.
But that's my take on it. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I spoke with one of the guys that found the musky on the ice. Nate said that he asked two spearers on the lake if they knew who speared the fish and they said they didn't. They tried to convice him of not turning the fish in to the DNR because they didn't want the conservation officers "harassing" them while they were spearing. They tried to get him to throw it back in the hole that he pulled it up from.
There are quite a few spearers and fishermen in the area that are not pro-musky. Many locals do NOT want muskies in our waters. I believe that this is a case of wanting to purposely kill a big musky. That is just my assumption from living in the area for the last 6 years. |
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| Some people, maybe alot, hate Musky. I have found musky floating with their guts cut open with a knife. Dont think you can push the fish you (we) love on those that think they are trash. You just might be surprised to find out how many would just as soon see them all dead. I am convinced that Mille Lacs is suffering this mentality. I have no evidence but it is my feeling. When walleye fisherman cant catch walleye do you think they blame themselves or something else like the musky. I'll bet ya there are more walleye lovers than musky. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What possible end goal does this deteriorating line of rhetoric have; will this encourage those who already oppose muskies in 'their' water to feel better about the muskies being there? Isn't it possible to anger enough of the darkhouse folks to encourage more of the same from the less scrupulous? That is a possible consequence, I've personally seen it in other 'spearing' debates in the past.
In many arguments, the reality of things usually isn't as bad, nor as good as either side says. Middle ground is a great place to meet, but it's hard to approach if someone is shooting at anyone trying to get there.
If you think some of the folks who spear pike and do so with care and within the law, respecting others in the process haven't read this thread, you are mistaken, and a possible backlash if the conversation in that crowd spreads enough is possible. I'd be a bit careful in my rhetoric if I was looking for a resolution, and not paint everyone with so broad a brush. |
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| Well said and I agree.....:) |
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| "Many locals do NOT want muskies in our waters."
Why not? The best walleye and northern lakes in the entire state of MN also happen to be the best muskie fisheries the state has to offer. I'm always amazed that so many people feel that stocking muskies is detrimental to "their" fisheries. They're missing out on probably catching more or larger walleye and northern. A local lake near where I live has produced quite a few trophy muskies, including a few 55 inch fish. I sent an e-mail to a guy who is part of a walleye organization and asked him about the catch rates he's seen on that lake over the past 10 years. He said they're catching MORE fish now than in the past, and according to the size numbers I received from him, there has been NO ILL EFFECTS from the muskie population. Educating the general public seems to be a big problem we have. If they only knew the facts, they may be more open to muskies being STOCKED, instead of being speared or harvested. |
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| Thats true but most people are not aware of that and wouldnt believe you if you told them. Its hard to convince someone that a musky that eats their walleye actually makes bigger and more walleye. Most musky anglers probably know this but I dont think this is true of the general walleye fishing population. We should probably be putting this info in walleye magazines and such and trying to educate or I'm afraid we may have run into a brick wall. |
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| Actually, muskies DON'T eat their walleye, was the point I was trying to make, and studies have proven this. Here is a little bit of info from one such study I just pulled off the net. It was clearly proven that walleye NEVER made up the prefered forage for muskies, even on lakes in which walleye were abundant. I agree though, it is hard to tell people this and have them believe you, even though it has been proven to be factual.
"In a report published in the North America Journal of Fishing Management, 1999," Skala said, "the College of Natural Resources, University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, tell us what muskies really eat. Michael A. Bozek, Thomas M. Burri and Richard V. Frie were the research biologists. They came up with the following data as to muskellunge diets. I will try to list the common names of the muskellunge prey. These figures were complied from 34 different bodies of water and samples from 375 stomachs of muskies. These figures represent percentage of total volume of the muskies examined stomachs." Percent OF Total Volume Prey Category (by common name):
46.6 Suckers; 16.9 Yellow Perch; 7.0 Crappie; 4.7 Pike & Muskie; 4.6 Shiners & Chubs; 4.0 Pumpkinseed & Bluegill; 3.4 Walleye; 3.1 Bass; 3.0 Unidentified; 2.4 Bullhead; 0.9 Frog; 0.9 Cisco; 0.6 Mudpuppy; 0.4 Crayfish; 0.2 Rock Bass; 0.2 Mouse; 0.1 Common Carp; 0.1 Tadpole.
I don't know about you, but I was surprised that walleyes were so low on the list. The lakes we fish, ciscos have to be higher on the list and if you announced that muskies consume more frogs than they do ciscos in a pizza and beer bar at most northwoods resorts, you'd start a brawl.
Yet, facts do not lie."
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| Type "Diets of Muskellunge in Northern Wisconsin Lakes" in your internet seach and you'll find the info I was refering to earlier. |
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| I know that DERRYs, the problem is I dont think alot of walleye, bass, panfish, fisherman do. Thats why I said maybe we should be spending some time educating them. I grew up in northern wis and have talked to residents in Minn. They think the musky is responsible and they hate them. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | For those that are interested, I've been in communication to some of the powers that be in the dark house group. We're going to have a meeting after day 1 of the MN DNR round table this weekend. I'm not going to promise any miracles, but it's a start. We're going to touch on this, but more how can we work together to weed out the miscreants as these poachers piss them off as much or more then us. Think about it, 99% of the dark house guys are legit and these clowns start this stuff. It takes away the legitimacy of their organization and sport as a whole. They don't want that in the least because they know where it'll lead. We're also going to have discussion about their sponsored negative public support of stocking new waters. I think I've made some in-roads, but time will tell.
For the record, if you look at that photo the spear was placed perfectly behind the head. That's an intentional shot. I'm not ripping spearing as a whole, just the donkey that did this. For those that know me, they know my father-in-law is a dark house guy and he was disgusted when I showed him the picture and he came to the same conclusion that I did. |
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| Good luck treats I hope for the best. DC |
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| This is a big problem that has a history on the lake and in the Spear and Release program that lurks and works in tight circles, it needs to be dealt with by both groups openly, I know there are a few that would just love to have a retaliatory act against a spear fisherman or their property then they could scream to the heavens to show the world how horrible we are, when if fact the act would probably be committed by the same type of guy that would poach this fish.
I would use the contacts given and ask for more CO's, The MMA and Chapter 54 sent letters to the Commissioner asking for more and if everyone would ask for and demand more PLUS ask for an increase in fishing license to help fund the additional officers we would have a step in the right direction.
I will also be voicing my concerns about the brood lakes as well as Leech, they need more observation and regulation to protect fish from harvest as well as poaching deterrents.
This is a very important time in the future of Muskies and the future of the new lakes we want stocked as well as new regulations that should be implemented, we need to keep in mind the sacrifices of those who worked without fail to give us what we have and we have to move forward with that sacrifice and vision in mind.
I firmly believe that Muskie interests and spearers will never agree on everything some issues are just too touchy and have a long and sorted past, I know the only way we will be able to keep the lines open is to work together on environmental and fisheries issues that are reflective of both groups interest there is plenty of issues within that category, then we will start seeing this type of poaching drop off.
I feel the TIP reward should be reflective of the fine for poaching a Trophy of any kind; say for a 50 inch fish what will be required to replace that fish? 500 fingerlings at $15.00 each or $7500.00.
The Dark house representative Ive worked with does not condone or support poaching or harvesting illegally, he is a man I have much respect for and he has shown me the same respect, even though we disagree on how big a Pike could get in MN, and the need for the current designated Muskie lakes.
ASK FOR MORE CO's
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| Glad to hear it Shawn I hope it doesn't end up like last years after meeting. |
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Posts: 720
| What happened after last years meeting? |
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| Discussion ensued LOL, all healthy, just interesting enlightenment. |
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| As far as fishing the brood stock lakes, I don't really have a problem with it if done responsibly.
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Let's just say the conversation last year got "colorful". 
Good thing I'm the DD this year right John? Don't mess with me and my 45 friends! LOL!!!!1 |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | We should save guides camping on brood stock lakes for another thread. This one has alot of interesting and intellectual comments and I don't want it to get locked down. |
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Posts: 21
Location: Wallingford, KY | What is all the tradition about anyway? Is there some unknown tribal ceremony involving musky? If this is just about survival and it's just about fish to eat, then, I'll personally all the way from Ky, send some frozen crappie, bass, bluegill, walleye, sauger, whatever from here to keep these musky from ending their lives at a spears end. I just don't understand the whole meaning of all this.
I didn't start fishing muskies till 2003, and have yet to kill one knowingly or have no intention of keeping one. There are plenty of pan fish be it bluegill or crappie in this area to eat without over fishing or exploiting a species.
The musky is a top of the chain predator and with that comes some limitations of excistence due to environmental or human detterents. This being said the US corp of engineers #*^@ed the licking river in the late 70's with it becoming a well known lake of which name is Cave Run. Thus they have determined that musky do not not reproduce as they naturally did before this reservoir. So to counter the positive effects of this reservoir to the human poplulation, they began an extensive and still going effort to keep the musky population of the area alive and well being by stocking thru outdoorsman and anglers license fees by stocking regularly musky back into the resource. We have a 30" limit (very small by any means) but I'm sure most people on here saw the new state record that came out of Cave Run very recently. This is due soley to CPR. No spearing here, only the occasional snagging which does happen.
I own 80 acres of land and 35 yrs ago a whitetail deer was almost non existent. 10 years ago a wild turkey was near non existent. Now I could open a window in my house and kill either species nearly daily, but I don't. My mother or father never had those opportunities growing up. Heck they didn't see a light bulb till they were in they're late teens. So it's all about humans and natures blessings and animals all trying to co-exist in the same environment.
This being said, and I'm venting as all that read all this can see. I will end this with one thought.
If you as a sportsmen, angler what be it, were to wake up tommorow and your wife and children need to eat and you had to go fishing to supply a meal for them, what would be your main fish fish to target?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Northern Pike. |
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Posts: 21
Location: Wallingford, KY | I understand. Northern Pike. I have fished Mi, UP Mi, Wi, and Mn and have yet to see a body of water that produces consistent or yet even close to good shot at a tropy pike consistently in the US. Why is this? Could it be that they are treated like a carp (rough fish) as here in Ky?
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Posts: 21
Location: Wallingford, KY | Yes, and the first fish it would be, I would have to ask how many hours anyone on this site puts toward putting a musky in a boat, off the the shore, by spear, hook or line, net, whatever anyone can do to get a fish? And tell me, anyone all knowing, would do and target as a fish to feed their child would do to catch any species of fish to survive? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | There are many lakes in Wisconsin that can and do kick out trophy Pike, one just needs to find them. Pike, for the most part, are managed in Wisconsin as a sport fish that is highly valued for it's table fare value. Some lakes are managed for big fish, with varying success. Bottom line is Pike are far more numerous than Muskie, are valued as table fare, and are managed as such on most waters here and I personally am delighted with it and have been since I moved here in 1974. The Pike fishing up here is the best now I can ever remember. Minnesota has set limits to increase size and populations in some waters recently, and Ontario set a slot in place I think would be interesting to apply on some Midwestern Pike waters here in the US. |
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Location: Wallingford, KY | I agree with you 100% Steve. You have already disclosed the reason for their lakes (the pike) becoming of better size and #'s. I am from a state of only one or two readily options to musky fishing as we see it. Now with the limited access we have and the issues of what goes on up there with all the resources you all have, I just worry about the furure of any sport without regulations. |
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Posts: 32904
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | There's plenty of regulations protecting the fish up here. Al Lindner yesterday while addressing the National Professional Anglers Association Conference said he feels the US fisheries are in excellent shape, and the Muskie fisheries in the US in better shape than they ever have been. The problem here is someone broke one of them in MN, and the possible motive for that infraction and the resulting loss of a nice fish is bothersome, because most Muskie folks want to keep the Muskie fisheries in the shape they are or improve them. Unfortunately, there's also a group or two in MN that work very hard to circumvent those efforts, and just as unfortunately some folks who do actually do it right end up in the undeserved crosshairs. People get mad, everything goes backwards for awhile, and we all lose...... all because some bonehead broke a law. It's always something, isn't it? |
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Posts: 21
Location: Wallingford, KY | I agree 100% again, Steve I'm not here to pick a fight or anything near it. It's always good to have a nice exchange of conversation (opinions). I have been a long time reader and now have enough time to converse online. Hope I haven't stepped on too many toes in the mean time. If so, that's what makes for good conversation as I see it. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Not in the least! |
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Location: Wallingford, KY | Nice to hear that you attended the NPAAC. ALL voices heard and anyone that takes their time and money that it takes to attend should be applauded by all anglers. I am for one very grateful as I as of now have not those resources, but look to those that do and this is the way to express our thoughts and emotions for the well being and future of our sport. Thanks again
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| As far as the trophy Northern Pike, I think your chances are very good on Northern Mn lakes...(Rainy, Basswood, Vermilion) just to name a few
I think the main reason you don't see that many true trophy Pike lakes is that they really are much more suited to cold water then Muskies, the further North you go the bigger they get... |
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Posts: 3155
| In Minn if I need a fish to eat fast its a pike not panfish,,,my god their everywhere even in North Shore brook trout streams on little 0 mepps spinners, finding true 1/2to 3/4 lb sunnies is a true goldmine,,,Id trade the location of an abandoned dnr muskie pond where we got 12 in one day for a producer of 3/4 lb sunnies |
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| Dude PM me I got your trade! DC |
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Posts: 431
| I'm not particularly familiar with all of the musky politics up north, but here's my take. Musky fisherman are a small-but by no means inconsequential-segment of the overall fishing population. As with all groups, musky fisherman have an agenda regarding conserving/regulating/expanding the fisheries. My sense, however, is that there are a wide range of goals among musky fishermen. This doesn't help the group. Ex. Missouri recently lowered the size limit on a lake-from 42"- because the Conservation Dept. saw no benefit from that lake having a different size limit. I don't agree with this decision, buy some might. However, the key inquiry is, should this be a sticking point? Most serious musky fishermen in Missouri probably favor expanding the fishery, and improving populations on existing lakes. While I am of the opinion that size limits accomplish those goals, those aren't the only means. Stocking efforts and habitat improvement are also key factors which all parties probably should agree on, making them much easier to pursue. Pushing those agendas also prevents the projection of an elitist image. Further, it's hard for other groups of non-musky fishermen to argue against habitat improvement or water quality improvement.
Given the percentage of musky fishermen, it's supremely important of us to be cognizant of other groups and potential benefits of joining forces. I see lots of folks advocating musky only positions-stocking, seasons and size limits. This furthers the elitist image of musky fishermen. I think it would be extremely beneficial to partner with other organizations in pushing common goals. If instead of 3% of the fishing population you can get multiple organizations behind proposals, chances of success rise dramatically. As mentioned earlier in this thread, increasing the number of Conservation officers would likely curb the number of fish of all species taken out of season. It might be possible for a variety of organizations to get behind such an effort. Further, you help create an image that musky fishermen are stewards of all resources, not just musky and musky lakes.
My point in saying all of this is that though the thought of a speared musky or any dead musky might be disgusting, don't forget the end goal which is not only preservation, but improvement of the fisheries. Everything said and done must be evaluated in a much larger context. |
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| Wow every sight has this on it. do you see all the lakes are in the bemidji area.heres a ? when was the last time spawn was take from a muskie in one of these lakes. im from the bemidji/cass lake chapter im a former president we ruffly have 35 members mostly familys the dark house asso has over 200 in the bemidji chapter when this stuff gets brought up my chapter suffers every time.their are alot of spears that are also muskie fishermen.i have been to all the dnr meeting on these lakes the last couple of years nothing has ever been brought up about a ban on brood stock lakes. wow i dont rember seeing mr. cochran at any of these meeting i have never seen him at a chapter meeting. contacting the bemidji chamber thats a joke the dark house asso puts on a kids fishing durby every year they give over 100 bikes away at the event our chapter trys getting along with the dark house asso. their are muskies speard every year for along time now, we here about it every year. i think the few that do get speard has not hurt the muskies in these lakes, must havent mr cochran is guiding on these lakes sounds like he does good every year. heres a thought how come all the lake you can spear on that have muskys in them have such a large pop of 50inch muskys maybe this is somthing the dnr should look at. |
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| Although I feel that Mr. Cochran has raised attention to a major problem, I think that it is much wiser for guides to just stay out of these types of discussions. I believe that if people took as much time writing to the DNR as they do complaining about what there not doing, something would get done. I personally plan on attending the next meeting in hopes of coming to a comprimise.
Part of me can understand why people want to spear on these brood stock lake its simple. Big Pike... The DNR takes and stocks these lakes after gathering information on how the fish will adapt and survive and alot of this is based off how fast and large pike grow in these waters. So the truth of that matter is these lakes have had big pike forever and that is exactly why people really push the dnr let them spear on these lakes.
I love musky fishing, I do it every day in the summer and strive to do everything possible to keep these fisheries growing, but i also understand the people who spear have the same rights as I do on these great waters. I just find it very sad that a few classless anglers can cause this much annimocity among sportsman.
Anyways I feel I have said enough. To all you musky anglers and legal spearers i wish you the best of luck in 2009! |
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| Do most spearers spear for food or for a trophy???,, I know its all for recreation..,Ive been around spearers at the open house meetings but never asked,,,,Because Im wondering if all of us got together for an outing and decided to have a shore lunch wouldnt we harvest the 3-4 1/2 lb pike??? I always find that the smaller pike are the best tasting,,unless their going to put it on the wall why do they want the larger pike. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | happy hooker Good ??? I to have wanted to know if they spear for food or trophy ??? |
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| I know many who do both! It all depends on the person. I know some people who sit there the whole season and never drop their spear once! That is why it makes it so tough to ban spearing all together. If all they want is a 3-4 lbers than most woudn't spear on the brood stock lakes because there are many better lakes to get that size fish. I love the way that everyone automatically assumes that all spearing is for food! |
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Posts: 720
| For those of you who are beating the drum the loudest regarding the guides and the dark house folks. What exactly do you want? Is it the complete elimination of the guides and dark houses? Or is it just keeping them off your brood stock lakes? I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here. I'm curious. What makes you folks feel that your agendas are more important then other sportsman? Is your money any greener than theirs? Are muskys better fish because we fish them? Fighting with the guides to keep them off your lakes is a farce. Many of the guides that folks are referring too are the same ones we are paying money to hear speak at our club meetings and shows. So I find that arguement to be hypocritical.
To get back to my orignal thought in my first post. We need to work with these folks. All of us. I don't get it. Does making a big stink make you feel better. It does nothing to further relations with the DNR or other angler organizations. We look and act elitist with kind of talk. No give and take means just that. Lets talk to these folks and not at them. Its really simple, but yet we as a musky community continually beat our heads against the wall. I don't get it.
Edited by Hunter4 1/7/2009 8:07 AM
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Hunter is right.
I've seen several fish floating on Plant, all big fish that died from delayed mortality.
If we're going to ban spearers on Brood lakes, than if we don't ban fishing that's being pretty hypocritcal if our reasons are "to protect the fishery".
JS |
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| What if the reality is that they dont 'want' to work with us because is that a zero possibility.
Do we sit down and "work" with sportsman for responsible muske management-"no more muskies" based on their track record.
I understand all about forgeting the past and turning the other cheek but sometimes when you turn the other cheek and the other guy keeps swinging you now end up with two black eyes instead of one |
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| May sound like a stupid question but do you know what a brood stock lake is. Is it a musky nursery, a musky sanctuary, a musky preservation site, or just a place where the dnr collects eggs for hatchery usage? |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I LOVE winter!!!!!
For the record in MN the number of licensed anglers that said they target muskies in the 2006 Fulton study was 14-15% not 3%. This also didn't include out of state licenses. This is one reason why our voices are being heard more now then in years. |
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Posts: 8806
| It's not hard to figure out that there's not a lot of common ground between a group of anglers who thinks someone is killing all "their" fish, and another group who thinks the first group is trying to stop them from spearing "their" fish.
The winners in all of this, if there are to be any winners, will be whatever group can present their arguments in a professional, sensible, and courteous manner to those responsibile for making the decisions.
So let me ask you all something...
Can we as musky anglers collectively get along, play nice, and conduct ourselves in a professional manner long enough to make any difference here?
What IS the common ground? Is there any? Can there be any?
The way I see it is that both groups are killing muskies unintentionally. We're killing them through little or no fault of our own simply by fishing for them, they are killing them by little or no fault of their own by spearing them thinking they were big pike.
So do we argue about which ones are deader? Do we argue about who shouldn't be doing what they are legally entitled to do? Do we argue about who owns what fish, what fish are more important, what laws are right or wrong?
Seems like that gets us nowhere, year after year, after year...
You can't tell me that there aren't at least a few cooler heads on both sides of the fence who would like to see this go away and find some common ground where both groups can be happy. Or I should say both groups can be slightly less unhappy about the way things are...
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Posts: 720
| Hooker,
All I want to know and I don't think its that difficult of a question. What do you as a musky fisherman want from the folks that spear? That would be a place to start. All I'm saying is the all the hard talk and chest thumping is going to get us the big goose egg.
You know if I wanted to argue with someone I could step away from the computer and go talk to my wife. |
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Posts: 23
| EA- not calling you out, just quick questions- Yah, I agree with most of your post about cool heads and getting people together in a sensible/professional manner...
The part I find a problem with is when you said "both groups are killing muskies unintentionally." That muskie, along with many others from that lake and other lakes in the region was killed intentionally by an irresponsible spearer. Spearers can easily tell the difference between fish, as they should. You could have a 30 inch pike and a 30 inch muskie next to each other and very easily tell them apart. Why throw the spear if you don't know your target? A 49-50 inch northern pike? No. The spearer in this case is at fault for killing a large, mature muskie illegally.
How can we stop it? Realistically probably cannot. Probably the same 'outdoorsmen/sportsmen' (ha) who shine deer, kill 20 ducks a day, fish before season, etc. Just hope the MN DNR catches these guys.
Edited by Scottie Thomas 1/7/2009 3:51 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So now this entire thing begs the real question, what can be done, how can it be done, and who will do it?
Not much
By negotiation with everyone in all aspects of this debate
Treats and company, that's who, and he pretty much summed it up already.
Someone broke a law. No one, apparently, knows who. Hard to punish someone if you don't know who to punish, or this guy would have a court date scheduled already. So beating this horse some more won't accomplish much, except for arriving at the same conclusion a few more times.
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Posts: 8806
| Scottie, that's a valid question. Intentional spearing of muskies is a different problem in my opinion -- that falls under illegal and unethical behavior. I suspect that a vast majority of the Dark House guys are as angry about that sort of behavior as we are. As much as I believe that IS a problem, I think we have to ignore that segment of the population for purposes of this discussion. There will always be people who don't respect the laws, and dont respect the natural resources they enjoy. There are people like that in muskie fishing as well. All we can do is report them when we see them, and hope that they get caught sooner rather than later.
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Posts: 8806
| sworrall - 1/7/2009 4:06 PM
So now this entire thing begs the real question, what can be done, how can it be done, and who will do it?
Not much
By negotiation with everyone in all aspects of this debate
Treats and company, that's who, and he pretty much summed it up already.
Someone broke a law. No one, apparently, knows who. Hard to punish someone if you don't know who to punish, or this guy would have a court date scheduled already. So beating this horse some more won't accomplish much, except for arriving at the same conclusion a few more times.
Steve, let's forget about illegal and unethical behavior for a moment -- that occurs on both sides of the fence, and is more a reflection of poor character than it is a certain sporting group or activity.
The question was raised and not answered:
What does the muskie angling population WANT from the spearing community? What is it we want them to do or not do?
What exactly do they want US to do?
Other than the obvious fact that we don't like them because they spear fish and we like to release fish so we can catch them again, and they don't like us because we don't like them , what IS the problem?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The problem is muskie anglers want to ban spearing on Muskie lakes so this sort of thing can't happen.
The Darkhouse folks want to be left alone to pursue their sport on the lakes it is now legal do do so, and do not want any further regulations limiting same.
Everyone wants everyone else to behave ethically and legally in an acceptable fashion.
Have I missed anything? |
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Posts: 3155
| Hunter 4
what I want from the spearers is when we do have a dispute on things how about letting the DNR settle it and accept their judgement,,,,we do,,, Muskie Groups wanted a dec 15th closing date because that would pretty much cover all open water. The dnr said they favored a dec 1st closing we went along. We wanted and still want 54' minimum on some waters the DNR advised us to go 48' so again we went with their expertise. Dark house assoc and musky fisherman cant see eye to eye on an issue and the DNR is asked for their opinion and if it dosent go the darkhouse way they use politicians to make resource decisions over the dnr. When we want something changed we ask the dnr to look at the feasibility of doing it, Recent history shows darkhouse gets a politican to push it.
In regards to Brood stock lakes If we now feel that they are being hit hard I say lets bring the issue to the dnr and have them take a look and see,,I dont fish Plant,little wolf or Rebecca because their brood lakes and I know Im missing some good fishing,If the dnr thinks its best for the program I'll go along with no muskie fishing and spearing on those waters even though our muskie lakes are getting crowded. |
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Posts: 720
| Mr. Worrall,
Thank you. Nothing can be done that hasn't been done already. Yet some seem to be dead set on lumping a whole group of tax paying anglers into the same barrel. I understand the outrage but statements like "we need to eliminate in our brood stock lakes" or how much of man I was because I can use a few curse words with some of the opposition in the parking lot makes us look stupid and unwaivering. Not what we need at all. This spearing incident was carried out by some unethical morons and I suspect it made no difference to them wheather it was a spear or a rod/reel. This is fishing and not life and death. Threatening a full grown man with violence over fishing is a joke. Challengeing someone's views over a certain aspect of fishing with diplomacy and class will carry a man or woman much farther. Just ask the WRMA and Larry Ramsell how well that approach works. I continue to use that as a reference because of the great idea they had that got shot to hell because of a few chest thumping, huge egomanical folks. That whole issue set us back and made us as musky anglers look foolish. I don't think spearfisherman have any more or any less of a right to a lake than I do. So outside of the few morons that break the law what grounds do we have to complain. The answer to that is none. So chalk this incident up to an unethical idiot and leave the good folks that do abide by the laws alone. |
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Posts: 720
| Hooker,
Thank you for your answer. If you could give me a little time to think about what you wrote I would like to respond to your post. You have made me think and I appreciate the thought that went into your response. I'll send you a PM later if that is ok.
Dave |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | "Guest, Former Bemidji/Cass Lake Chapter President",
You are right I personally don't think I have done enough to voice my opinion on these matters. I will start attending meetings in the area and getting more involved. If there is an upcoming meeting for these type of discussions feel free to post it on my website. Also, is there a website that has these meetings listed? If so could you e-mail it to me or post it here?
I posted this thread on here and on many many other sites to make people aware of the problems we face in northern MN. I would assume that quite a few people called/e-mailed our local DNR office and let them know their thoughts on the matter. I have gotten around 30 phone calls/e-mails from friends and even people that I didn't know stating that they called and talked to someone at the office.
As far as me introducing other guides to the lake being discussed that is false. This is a common misconception and one that I am not fond of. I let one of the guides rent a room at my house for a few summers, he was fishing the lake before I met him. I no longer associate myself with him. I have talked to the other guide maybe a few times, never was it about him coming over here and fishing.
I do disagree with the area brood lakes having large pike. I haven't caught more than 4 pike over 34 inches in the last 6 years of fishing up here. I haven't even heard of anglers catching large pike in any of these brood waters. I firmly believe that there are far more musky in these lakes than there are northern pike. I personally don't think that it makes sense to allow spearing on brood waters.
You also asked, "Here's a question... when was the last time that spawn was take from a muskie in one of these lakes?
Gary Bernard at our office indicated that he took spawn from fish in '07 and '08 out of this lake, 53 being the biggest. This is an active brood lake that the DNR use every year.
Edited by kevin cochran 1/7/2009 5:14 PM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I know that snagging muskies was being reported as a problem on Vermillion a few years ago.
Interesting to note that muskie anglers didn't push for a ban on fishing for them with rod and reel because a few anglers were abusing that tactic.
We can all agree that spearing muskies is BS that we would love not to have happen.
But banning the tactic completely because of the things done by a minority of spearers just doesn't seem to be the answer to me.
JS |
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| I agree with John. The question was posed earlier, "What does the muskie angling population WANT from the spearing community?" My reply to this question would be that I would be satisfied if the spearing population refrained from spearing muskies, and make sure all spearers were educated enough in that sport to know the difference between muskie and pike. I wouldn't ask for or ever expect spearing to be banned. I believe most muskie anglers would answer similarly, but of course not all. I'll be interested in hearing about the meeting. |
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| There is a meeting in Bemidji on the 21st of this month at 7pm at Cattails Restaurant. This is the old Northwoods Steakhouse. If you live in the area please attend. I will be attending as well as Brian Truax. The DNR will be discussing information relating to stocking and will address any concerns that we may have. |
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Posts: 335
Location: Minnesota | What meeting is it? Is it a DNR public hearing for something or is it a special meeting of some sorts?
Who is calling the meeting? Hopefully I can attend.
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| Also Rory with the Bemidji/Cass Lake Chapter of Muskies Inc. will be there with sign-up sheets for the chapter. |
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| I am not really sure the exact details. I talked briefly with Rory in Chicago about it. If you have his number I am sure that he would welcome a phone call. |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | I it would probably be good to notify the DNR, I know in my area they have caught a couple people spearing muskies this year. We have guys in the Alex area that brag about it and they think it is funny. I bet they dont think it is to funny when the dnr catches them. Some people will just never learn. |
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Posts: 59
| We went Ice Fishing on Lake Minocqua a couple years ago and saw some Native Americans out there taking picks and chopping through 20 inches of ice. They put pine branches in there to keep it open and set up a mini TP with sticks and blankets and three of them laid down for over an hour with handmade decoys and a handmade spear. They got a 48 inch muskie. The guy who speared it said that their family spears two a year and eats all of the meat. If the muskies are going to be speared by the Natives at least some of them are doing it as close to the traditional way as possible. It was sad to see that great fish go, but at least it was getting used. |
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Big Musky Speared.....