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| What do you do when a party come's up want's to fish with you on there first day gps everything and then fish on there own for the rest of there trip?
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| Take them to spots where I've never seen a fish before?
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Take them out and try to put them on fish as usual. I'm not in it to hide anything from clients. If they book me, I'll show them what I can and try to help them catch fish the rest of the week. I'd tell them to give me a call as well to try and help them through the week. |
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | To me GPS is too far. Plus I'd worry about not getting to many of thems best spots. It's not hard to make visual markers and come back on them. |
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| but after spending the amount's of money and time to find everything you have to just give them away so easy just dosen't seem right to me. even more when your trying to make a living out of it. i look at it more like there stealing from you. i've never brought a gps in my boat with me or map did everything with just my brian looked at the map before going out, so i say if i did it that way you can.
and to boot they never book you again ether
Edited by Anonymous 11/17/2008 3:26 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | muskynate;
If the fellow you are fishing with is an 'outfitter', whom you have hired to catch a fish, the bigger the better, I'd expect there may be an exception. If you hired a 'guide' who's job it is to teach you the way to those fish and teach you the water, there would probably be fewer objections. My take, anyhow.
Either way, if the client brings a GPS, I'll tell him exactly when to punch in a waypoint, no worries. Most clients don't hire me to 'just' learn the water (although some do, and if they own a hand held and do not use it, they missed an opportunity), most hire me, and then re-hire me, for the overall experience and what they can take home from it. There's much more to being a successful guide than knowing the water. |
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Posts: 232
Location: Sun Prairie, WI | I have hired guides in several states, and I always ask beforehand if bringing a gps is ok. I have never been turned down, in fact most have suggested it during our talk before we book. At Bull Shoals, a guide spent an extra 3 hours just motoring us around so we could mark spots, and this was after our day was finished. He really earned a big tip, and we booked him again and learned even more.
Being up front and honest usually works, and creates good friendships. |
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| i've spent lot's of time with guy's helping them out and showing them the lake and even giving a few free trip's. thinking it would help me out later with more clint's and re-booking's but has never happened.even more with the die hard guy's . |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | Well i have no problem with it. i look at it this way, all my clients that i take out are doing it for a reason. and i hope to be able to teach them a thing or two , maybee something that they never knew. and that includes the lake and its spots and how to fish them, thats a must. i have had a few clients so far this year that have actually never fished for musky and after the day they went to the local shop and spent almost a grand in rods and reels and net and everything else to get started and then went out and bought a boat. they caught their first fish with me and they were hooked, and i have had them fish spots close to me. i want them to feel like they are number 1 in my boat.. they get the front and use of everything. and i dont hold back nothing. they get to learn it all.. so back to the question. yes they can bring a gps and usually i mark maps for them.. heck i have marked maps on lakes we didnt fish so they can try those on their own.. just my 2 cents on the way i do things besides work my butt of to get them fish.....bill
Edited by archerynut36 11/17/2008 4:05 PM
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Often times, I help clients out to understand their GPS units and mark the spots for them. I have no problem with people hiring me and marking spots. I want them to catch fish, and not just when they are in my boat. I do appreciate those that ask before they bring them, but I will never discourage it.
Like Steve said, there is much more to being a guide than just knowing water. |
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| has it started fight's with you and other guide's in the area.because with me it has. |
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| i look at it as your a teacher as well not just a guide. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | not that i know of. here in indiana there are enough guides. and usually most of us get along. we even help each other out. like i said here in indiana waters there are around 15 guides. yea i know alot for so little water.. but we all get along..bill
anny you hit the head of the nail on that one..
Edited by archerynut36 11/17/2008 4:05 PM
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Not in this area (SE Wisco). Most of the lakes are pounded and it's not necessarily the locations we are fishing, rather how we fish those areas. What we look for, what directions we work a spot and why, basically all the little stuff verses just setting up a drift and bombing casts away.
So due to that, no real issues down here. The spots aren't secret, but some little things that we do might be, or little areas under the water that we key on. Like has been mentioned before, showing them the areas to fish is only part of the game. |
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| well i look at it like hey were all out here trying to do the same thing why not help other people out.
that's why i asked just wanted to see what everyone else was going to say about it because it's some of the thing's i have had to deal with. |
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| I fished with a great guide a while back when the musky fishing in that area and at that time had been particulary tough. He'd been working hard at putting together a patern and was having more success than any other guide in that area but there were only a few spots that were producing for him. When we arrived at one of those spots, a small one, his clients from the previous day were already there. He'd asked them during their trip, as he did us, if they would avoid that area for a few days as he was using that spot to earn his livelyhood with other clients untill things picked up elsewhere. He was furious when he saw them and I can appreciate his position. I think it was just a matter of courtecy and I respected that. Besides, we caught a couple and had a great trip. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Then that fellow is an outfitter, not a guide, by that description. |
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Posts: 720
| I fished with a guide for the first time this fall. I think as a custumer, I'm entitled to a couple of things. First I think I'm entitled to the guide trying his best to put me on fish. Secondly, I think its the guides responsibilty to explain the reasons for why he or she is trying a certain spot with a certain pattern and method. That is what I think my money entitles me too. Nothing more. Marking spots just doesn't seem to be in the contract as far as I'm concerned. This is a persons living and I don't feel that a paying costumer has the right to cut into that.
Besides isn't most of the fun of musky fishing trying to find those spots? I enjoy the satisfaction I get out of fishing new water and implementing what I've learn to new water. I don't maybe its stupid but that is what gets me off on musky fishing. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
What is the difference between an outfitter and a guide?
The way I see it, if a guide is on public waters, than any spot he takes you to is what you paid him for, and you're entitled to "document" that spot and use it whenever you choose to.
JS |
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| i think hunter has a great piont |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | An 'Outfitter' usually takes you to a place you would not go on your own. Some lease private waters and land. Others use public land and waters and are pretty up front they are about the client harvesting a trophy or in this case CPR a trophy, not learning the water or the land. The Outfitter specifically is hired to put a trophy in the hands of the client and has no responsibility to teach the client anything more than is necessary to accomplish that goal. Big game outfitters are good examples, and there ARE Muskie 'Outfitters' out there.
A 'Guide' usually teaches you the water and lay of the land, the way TO the water and the land, and how to CPR a trophy on your own so you do not necessarily need him/her to be successful there in the future. Most guides try very hard to put the client on a good fish, but have a different end goal and methodology.
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| nicely said steve
i would put my self in both category's |
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| It's no secret that it is a good chunk of money to hire a guide, even for a day. The client earns that right to GPS spots if they choose to do so. I think asking the guide prior to going on the lake if taking a GPS out would be alright is most necessary. I know if I hire a guide to help me learn a lake, I will ask if it would be ok to take along my hand-held. If they so no, I might take my business elsewhere. There are a lot of good guides out there that don't mind. I already know what baits work, most of my learning would come from learning locations. A big lake would require a GPS to find most of the spots again. My 2 cents.
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| i still thiink there should be some kind of respect to a guy that has shown you all his stuff, even more when he does it for a livin and you do it for fun
Edited by Anonymous 11/17/2008 6:13 PM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
It's not about respect.
It's about why you are hiring a guide.
Are you hiring one because you don't know the ropes about catching muskies, or because you want to maximize your time fishing and learn new water?
I have more respect for people who show me spots that aren't charging money for that than those that do.
That statement isn't meant to be a knock on guides. I simply mean that I expect to be shown good spots if I'm paying for it. I apprecitate and respect the favor of those that do it willingly.
So fishing spots that a guide shows you is not a lack of respect for that person.
You're just reaping the benefits of your purchase.
JS |
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| but in hiring a guide or an outfitter you hire them to get you a fish of a life time arn't you.
Edited by Anonymous 11/17/2008 6:34 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Not necessarily, hence the difference between the two. |
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Posts: 1455
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Anonymous--
Since you are a guide and and outfitter, you certainly reserve the right to not allow GPS units on your trips. Be up front with your clients and let them know this ahead of time when they ask. We operate in an open market and each guide can determine for him/her self what they will and will not permit.
I have an opinion on the GPS matter, but it is not really relevant.
By the way, if you were to post your guiding/outfitters business' name on your signature line, you might pick up some clients. It is very easy to register here and you might discover that you increase your ability to share your knowlege by picking up new clients from those who see it when you post.
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| i don't see hunter's gpsing everthing when they hire a guide to get a big buck or moose, most of them hire that same guy again the next year. so what's so diffrent about it. |
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| outfitter's own there own land and don't most outfitter's only hunt, as far as i know you can't own the water in canada so there is no way of being an outfitter up here. correct me if i'm wrong.
Edited by Anonymous 11/17/2008 6:52 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | There are many fishing Outfitters. |
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| ok thank's never new |
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Posts: 89
| Guides, aren't just there to show you the meat! I personally enjoy teaching anglers how to handle, release, and catch muskies in an effective and ethical manner. The areas I fish gps is not necessary for the most part. I don't discourage anglers from bringing a gps in anyway, with todays mapping gps units there are few secret spots left. Of course if I have a secret spot, I ask anglers to respect that. But I would never be upset if I saw another fisherman on one of those spots. They paid me for a day of learning and knowledge on the bodies of water I fish, and that is what I strive to provide. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This is an interesting subject, and has been covered a couple times here, I think. |
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| i look at it the same way as bjolly i just have gotten in a few fight's with other guide's in the area that say why do that now were going to have to deal with them and there buddie's every year.
Edited by Anonymous 11/17/2008 7:47 PM
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| i look at it the same way as bjolly i just have gotten in a few fight's with other guide's in the area that say why do that now were going to have to deal with them and there buddie's every year.
i'm confused about your purpose here...
you're "anonymously" (even though it's obvious who this is) posting a "question" for guides to answer and then arguing with the responses you get?
if you're looking for support for your point of view on this, why not just be open about who you are and what is your perspective?
if you show something to a client or even certain friends (a technique, spot, etc.), you should probably expect it'll get used in the future. you haven't kept it secret, so it's no longer a secret.
most guide clients are paying to be put on fish or to get some lessons to improve their own techniques. a good guide can probably do those things without having to resort to secret/unknown/unpressured waters.
taking clients to known spots on well-publicized waters is VERY different than showing them unknown lakes or rivers, especially if those are small waters that are easily susceptible to pressure. VERY VERY different.
it's probably a good idea to think about that before taking a client to certain places, especially if it'll mean upsetting other guides or local fishermen who could be helpful to you with information in the future if you respected their wishes about being quiet about those waters.
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Posts: 2089
| I ask questions of clients when they book the trip. Lots of questions. If they are hiring me to LEARN the water and plan on returning on their own at some point, I tell them to bring a GPS. I can point out spots on a map, but also having the "correct" path or route can make all the difference. In my mind, these folks are making an investment in their future. Now, if someone "smuggled" one on board, being sneaky like, then it's pike all day.Hahhahahahahaha. Oh, and if your guide gives you lots of info and goes above and beyond.......show your appreciation. Steve
Edited by Steve Jonesi 11/17/2008 9:47 PM
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | I think thats going a little too far. Guides rely on repeat business to make a living. If they are going to mark the spots on a gps they are less likely to hire him again. I doubt I'd allow it in my boat.
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 2089
| They'll hire me again, because in my boat it's not just about the fishing. That can be good too though. Hahahahahahahaha. I'm the "shortcut". I take out many very experienced/accomplished anglers who , in all honesty, don't "need" a guide. I'm a source of information, another resource if you will. The best anglers are on a constant quest for information. That's where I come in.It's all about the learning man. Funny though, not a lot of secrets on a 132,000 acre puddle. They go blindfolded to the "backwoods" lakes though.Hahahahaha.Screw me once , shame on me, screw me twice, I'll drill holes in the bottom of your boat at 2am. Hahhahhahahahahaha. PIRATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Steve
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | well everyone know's that i'm the one that put it up and thank's for all of you for saying something. i now know i was doing the right thing and that's my job as they hired me to do.
Edited by muskynate 11/17/2008 11:07 PM
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | i have just got alot of hassel for doing it the way i do it. so i wanted to know how everyone else handled it.i just wanted to put up everything that was said to me about it. i was all way's like hey there here for a week at the most and paid that much money to put fish in the boat i'm going to do what they pay me to do put them on fish.
Edited by muskynate 11/17/2008 11:19 PM
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | good way to put it jonesi
Edited by muskynate 11/17/2008 11:22 PM
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Posts: 366
| As a private entrepreneur you or they have every right to refuse service to clients who would like to bring a GPS with them in the boat. But you have to ask them, if all they have to offer an angler are fishing spots, then how truly valuable are they?
It can also seem as hypocritical when you think of hiring guides to learn lakes and spots and then later start a guiding business of your own based on some of that information. What could be a more direct example of taking money from guides or “stealing it”, if that is the case?
Maybe that’s part of the reason for animosity among fellow guides?
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | hey i worked my ass off and spent alot of money to find out everything i got on my own by reading and whatching lot's of book's, mag's and video's.i have put some of those guide's on the hotest spot's on the lake
Edited by muskynate 11/17/2008 11:36 PM
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Posts: 366
| So none of those other guides you show spots use them with their clients or ever fish them on their own? If so, then how is it that some one else using your spots for profit is ok, but someone who paid you using them for pleasure is not ok? Maybe I'm not understanding what your complaint really is, but from what I've heard it sounds pretty hypocritical to me, but I've been wrong before.
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | no i give people that hire me allmost everything i have and other guide's to. i was just wondering if other guide's do so or if not.because where i guide everyone is all about keeping it to them selves. |
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | turst me i'm all about putting people on fish. i don't even fish most the time unless they tell me to so they even have more of a chance at boating one
Edited by muskynate 11/17/2008 11:51 PM
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Posts: 1289
Location: WI | I think a gps could be handy while night fishing. I know a few months ago I was fishing with a guide and had no clue where we were. That's fine though, he marked up my map and showed me a bunch of spots.
Another guide I fished with didn't mind me sitting there marking my map up while we were buzzing around. He was pointing out where to go in the springtime, late fall, etc.
I don't think taking a gps with would fly out east. I guess I'd rather just get a small feel for the spot while with the guide, and then try and figure it out a little more on my own. |
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| I think when you hang a guide shingle out you need to quickly realize there are NO MORE secrets. If the goal truly is giving all clients 100%. I have no problem with that, but what this does is take away the right to complain if a prior client is fishing “your” spots. You decided to guide, you decided to take money to show people techniques and spots.
Most people on this site are likely to hire a guide to shortcut the pattern on a week long trip, much like Steve said above. Or to be guided to a trophy on a LARGE body of water.
Two Nate’s fellow guides, I would say they are old school, and just don’t understand how it works now. If you have secrete spots that you don’t want others to fish, you shouldn’t be guiding. I think it as simple as that.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 376
Location: Lake Vermilion Tower, MN | I have never told a client that they couldn't bring a GPS along on our trip.
Before the advent of GPS, I always marked a map with the spots we had fished, so they could find the spots on their own.
I always appreciate it when they ask if it's OK. Many spots are seasonal anyway and they may only be around a few days. I can adjust my plan of action if I see a boat on a spot I was going to fish. 
If your're guiding for a living like I do, you better have more than a couple of spots to fish. If I see a client on a spot I showed them I just wave and move on to the next spot.
I also enjoy getting e-mails from clients with photos of fish that they caught on spots that I showed them. I don't agree that you never see those clients again. I have a good number of regulars that GPS the spots we fish and have for years.
Like Steve W. said, there is much more to a guide than just showing you some spots to fish. I'd have to say a spot is a spot, is a spot, if you don't know how to fish it correctly.
"Ace"
Edited by guideman 11/18/2008 9:16 AM
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| Maybe instead of whining about your clients you should just not take them to your best spots. You don't sound like you know what you're doing and you don't sound very professional. I don't think you are whoever you are pretending to be, either way just stop whining. |
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| Not sure you're "entitled" to anything when you hire a guide, only what you agreed to beforehand. So ask the guide, or outfitter, or whatever you want to call him, if you can bring/use your GPS. Then decide how to proceed according to his answer. Is it really more complicated than that? |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I will agree to what "guest" said in concept in the whining reply. But you will notice I have a signature at the bottom of my reply. Man up to your opinions people.
Corey Meyer
Edited by muskymeyer 11/18/2008 10:19 AM
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| any guide should expect his/her spots they take customer to get crushed after that.....the spots and patterns will get beat into a pulp until they no longer will work and the guide should expect lots of pressure on the spots they take customers too...and a overall increase of pressure on the lake.. its a tough deal, but we all pay taxes...even somebody that didnt hire a guide can look over and see what they are throwing and areas they are fishing and go over a crush the spots, its not hard to figure guides out!! IMO opiniion guides are worthless for the lakes, most dont give any back to the community and crush it into a pulp so when weekenders want to try to catch fish it makes it pretty tough (good luck).. |
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| The same could be said of the WMT. |
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Posts: 313
Location: On your favorite spot | Steve, you're way off base. The only thing that matters on the lake is whatever has happened in the last 3 or 4 days before you fish it. That's what a guide is for, to be out there everyday. The good spot/bad spot thing is just a theory and buying into it will hurt you on the water. You can't fish the same spot everyday and catch fish everyday, they move. If you go out and piss pound the same 3 spots each weekend you're not going to do so hot.
Most of the guides do their part for our state and for the resource, sorry the fishing has been crappy for you this year. |
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Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL | I believe that Hunter 4 is right on with his comment also. I have only used a guide once, but the one lake that he took me to is one of my all-time favorites.
I have never caught a fish in "his" spots, I have found my own. And I REALLY like that............ 
Edited by Northwind Mark 11/18/2008 1:08 PM
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| "IMO opiniion guides are worthless for the lakes, most dont give any back to the community and crush it into a pulp so when weekenders want to try to catch fish it makes it pretty tough"
totally agree. after this past summer how many well known guides in MN were lake hopping to the lake with the hot bite I have lost respect for quite a few.
I'm curious for the guides making a living off of the fish, how many give back? what do guides that make $400+ per day do for the stocking of the lakes they take their clients to? They are there for the hot bite, get their clients on a bunch of fish then turn around and jump to the next hot lake. With seemingly no care in the world for the pressure and spotlight they are bringing to the body of water. Exploiting might be a bit harsh but aren't they to some extent? One guide put V on the map, only to jump ship this past summer to less pressured waters because he was sick of the pressure. But wasn't he part of the cause?
just a little venting on a boring tuesday. some might not be on target, but some of it is.
Personally I would love to see the day the DNR makes a guide get a guides license for one lake and one lake only for a full season,and charge a pretty penny to the guides with 100% of the fee going to stock the lake. |
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Posts: 313
Location: On your favorite spot | If you're an MI member in Minnesota than you've been the benificiary of seminars put on by various guides, along with the time and product that most of them DONATE.
If you're not, than you're probably not much better than the people you describe in your own post.
You guys think guiding is some kind of glamorous, get rich and catch 5 fish a day profession and with lots of chicks in camo bikinis (nice pic steve) and it's not.
Amazing that this whole dumb thread was started by someone who didn't know how to handle his own clients.
Edited by Marc J 11/18/2008 2:13 PM
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Posts: 8782
| As a professional client, I say you're paying for a day on the water, not free waypoints. Just like every guide is different, every client is different. It pays to know exactly what you expect before you even pick up the phone. I've fished with guides who just take you around, hand you a lure and say "throw this at that"... I've fished with guides who just run the boat and let you decide where/how/with what to fish. I've fished with guides who take you out and explain intricate details of a spot, how the fish set up on it, when to fish it, how to fish it, and when not to bother. I've had guides take me to lakes and show me spots that they would only fish if there were no other boats around. Those are the guides I hire again. And when they tell me something in confidence, I keep it to myself out of respect for the lake, the spot, and the person who showed it to me. Some of those places I wouldn't even think of fishing on my own. Bringing a portable GPS? I would ask first. Some guides I wouldn't even dare ask.
As for hiring a guide being a shortcut? I don't know about that. That's kind of like saying going to school is a shortcut to a good job. |
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| All guides should have to give 10 percent of there profits back to the fisheries they exploit................ |
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Posts: 720
| Steve,
Should the clients also pay an extra 10 percent for exploiting the water that they are hiring the guide to fish? |
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| Steve M - 11/18/2008 2:24 PM
All guides should have to give 10 percent of there profits back to the fisheries they exploit................
i agree, they take over a lake, 24/7, i try to stay away from guide infested lakes.. hard to do these days now!! |
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Posts: 8782
| Steve M - 11/18/2008 2:24 PM
All guides should have to give 10 percent of there profits back to the fisheries they exploit................
We all exploit the fisheries, Steve. Every single one of us, every time we fish.
Have you ever hired a guide? Do you know any guides?
Edited by esoxaddict 11/18/2008 2:35 PM
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| 10% of their profits wouldn't be much. They already pay an extra fee, GUIDE LICENSE, to be on public water.
Not sure why some of you can't get it through your thick skulls that these guys are not getting rich doing this.....................
Edited by muskydeceiver 11/18/2008 2:38 PM
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | no we do it for the love of the sport not the money. well I do anyway. I've eattin pancake's for a week because I only had money to pay the rent and go fishing to keep my skill's up. Or pay rent, eat good and then when my client's come up I wouldn't be ready for them. Not being ready for your client's wouldn't make you a very good guide i don't think.
Edited by muskynate 11/18/2008 2:53 PM
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Posts: 8782
| I crunched the numbers once. I figured at $350/day working from the opener to ice up, 6 days a week, with a full calendar and not a single cancellation/down day due to illness, broken equipment, etc you'd gross $45,000 a year.
Then when you subtract payments on your boat, truck, taxes, buying your own health insurance, a guidel license, and enough gear to last through the season at the end of the year you'd have enough money left to rent a trailer and eat at least twice a week.
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | that depend's on if you don't work for a lodge and your on your own. if you guide for a lodge most place's only pay you 150 for the day.
Edited by muskynate 11/18/2008 2:57 PM
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | just gas alone is bad here in canada we were paying 1.55 or so a litre so in the u.s it's in gallon's 3 litre's in a gallon. that's 5 buck's a gallon not cheap
Edited by muskynate 11/18/2008 3:00 PM
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| nobody is saying they make any money, avg income to below avg at best. |
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Posts: 225
Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | This is a fascinating discussion... throughout this thread, I've felt myself get pulled in one direction, then the other- a good number of good points being made. Regarding the statement that guides should pay more, if I had to guess I'd say part of that has to come from envy. Who among us hasn't thought 'Man, it would be cool to be a guide! Your job is to go FISHING.' I have to admit I've had that daydream... along with 'resort owner', 'bait shop owner' and 'professional fishing tv personality' (Angling Edge? Any openings???). I've actually considered switching from professional practice to the academic world because it would give me more time in the summers to fish. Not kidding. And you guides out there actually get to do it... with some really nice folks, and some great big jerks, and likely everyone else in between. On really nice days and on some not so nice ones. I have to admit, I've never hired a guide. Never had to, really... most of the water I've fished in my life I've mostly fished for my ENTIRE life. But I'm strongly considering it for a trip up to Mille Lacs- not because I want to know the secret spots, but because I want to understand that particular ecosystem. A guide can show a person locations, but that doesn't mean they'll catch fish there on their own. If it did, I'd think guys like Jonesi could just sell location maps or pre-programmed GPS chips and mostly avoid fishing with jerks like me. Also, I think most of us could look at a map for a lake we've never fished before and pick out the top 5 spots we'd think would be most productive, and most of us would have the same (or similar) spots. (At least for smaller lakes, that is... LoTW, Mille Lacs, etc. not withstanding.) But fish on every lake behave a little differently, and I would think that's what you're really getting. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, guides out there- I can understand being protective of a location that has helped provide for your family... but if you think the spot is the only thing you're providing, you're likely selling yourself short. |
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Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | Sorry if that got a little long-winded. |
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Location: The desert | esoxaddict - 11/18/2008 2:43 PM
I crunched the numbers once. I figured at $350/day working from the opener to ice up, 6 days a week, with a full calendar and not a single cancellation/down day due to illness, broken equipment, etc you'd gross $45,000 a year.
Then when you subtract payments on your boat, truck, taxes, buying your own health insurance, a guidel license, and enough gear to last through the season at the end of the year you'd have enough money left to rent a trailer and eat at least twice a week.
Try working in the fisheries world. I'd be jumping for joy over 45k. Maybe I should be a guide. |
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Posts: 313
Location: On your favorite spot | I fish a lake by my house almost everyday. My truck is always at the ramp. Everyone sees my boat when they are out there and sees where I'm fishing. I take other people fishing there quite a bit. Am I worthless for the lake? |
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Location: Twin Cities | Pointerpride102 - 11/18/2008 5:20 AM
Try working in the fisheries world. I'd be jumping for joy over 45k. Maybe I should be a guide.
You do realize that's $45k GROSS? There are all the business expenses before you can talk about income. |
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Location: The desert | JRedig - 11/18/2008 3:33 PM
Pointerpride102 - 11/18/2008 5:20 AM
Try working in the fisheries world. I'd be jumping for joy over 45k. Maybe I should be a guide.
You do realize that's $45k GROSS? There are all the business expenses before you can talk about income.
Yep. When my gross income looks like 27k, I'd take 45k in a heart beat. |
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Location: MPLS, MN | I don't care what any guide says about it being OK, I wouldn't bring a GPS because I'd still worry about not getting to certain spots if I had one. |
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| Does that $27,000 come with paid vacation, sick days, health insurance, guaranteed pay, no cancellations, and not having to watch some clown you never met throw your brand new 400TE in the lake or step on three of your rods at once?
Granted, it was quite a few years ago, but when I started my current job I was making $300/week. |
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| ........and a 401(k) or other retirement package? Guessing if you are working with fisheries it is a State job. Retirement, pension, etc. are often overlooked as a large amount of money. |
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Listening, er, reading these posts I can tell there must be ice in much of the musky-world already. 192 days until the opener above HWY 10...let the mindless ranting begin! |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I don't have anything "against" guides. I know people who fish almost every day that aren't guides, they cause pressure too.
But I do think you should be a resident of the state you guide in.
I also think MN should have a liscence and a "season" for guiding.
On a side note, our MI chapter has never had a guide give a free seminar. They charge anywhere from $250-600 a night.
Sure they donate, but I wouldn't say anymore than lots of folks do.
JS
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Location: Twin Cities | esoxaddict - 11/18/2008 5:52 AM
Does that $27,000 come with paid vacation, sick days, health insurance, guaranteed pay, no cancellations, and not having to watch some clown you never met throw your brand new 400TE in the lake or step on three of your rods at once?
Big +1.
Pointerpride102 - 11/18/2008 5:40 AM
Yep. When my gross income looks like 27k, I'd take 45k in a heart beat.
You're not comparing apple's to apple's at all.
Edited by JRedig 11/18/2008 4:08 PM
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Location: The desert | esoxaddict - 11/18/2008 3:52 PM
Does that $27,000 come with paid vacation, sick days, health insurance, guaranteed pay, no cancellations, and not having to watch some clown you never met throw your brand new 400TE in the lake or step on three of your rods at once?
Granted, it was quite a few years ago, but when I started my current job I was making $300/week.
No insurance, sick days or benefits. No 401k. Zip. Hell the job isnt even garaunteed funding, it could run out at any time. |
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| This is a pretty major tangent here, but then why would you make that kind of career decision, Pointer, if it is so bad? Or at least none of the benefits seem to be monetary, so what would be the benefit?
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| Hahahhahahahaha. Absolutely no clue. Very entertaining though." You want the truth? You couldn't handle the truth". Give back? 6 full day donations to Muskies Inc.(in State and Out Of State) and one to the local Boy Scout Council this season. Every season. I know others that do the same. Peace. Steve
Edited by Steve Jonesi 11/18/2008 9:42 PM
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Location: The desert | When did I say my career choice was bad or I dont like the fisheries world? I chose the fisheries field for the same reason Jonesi chose his. I absolutely love what I do. Eventually I hope to have a job that has benefits. |
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | I have hired a guide 20 times easy over the last 10 years & will hire another 20 in the next 10 years. Each & every time I hire them to spend a day trying to catch a fish, have a great time & maybe learn someting I didn't know about a lure or that particular body of water.
My expectations are always the same, put me in the best position to catch a fish & correct me when I do something wrong. I expect the same treatment for my kids or friends depending who who I bring.
I also like to see the guide fishing with us. I do & have learned how to work some baits by watching them. I also love to see the passion they have & fire at them when they have a backlash. A good sense of humor is even better. Frank Walsh wouldn't even have to leave the dock & I could listen to him all day. He still would get my $ + a tip.
In almost every case, the guide I hired would ask questions like Steve mentioned. If we were staying to fish on our own for a few day's following the guided trip, everytime they would offer to mark up our map. That get's them a free lunch at the local gin mill for the mid day break my treat! All except that Ty Sennett & Tanner combo.. They will fish you so hard you don't want to go out the next day!
Mike |
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Posts: 366
| Sorry, I guess when you use your prospective income as comparison, for a less enviable situation to how guides have it I assumed that the statement was comparable to a complaint.
Guiding is not about making $$$, heck I don’t think there is a position in the muskie fishing biz, that is really about $$$. Which is a discussion that’s been covered several times and you either agree, or you don’t.
Slamr, thanks. That truly made me laugh out loud. My wife always looks at me like I’m crazy when I start laughing looking at the muskie boards.
“anybody touches my stuff, and I’ll kill ‘em”
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Location: The desert | Fishwizard - 11/18/2008 4:52 PM
Sorry, I guess when you use your prospective income as comparison, for a less enviable situation to how guides have it I assumed that the statement was comparable to a complaint.
I was simply throwing it out there. I know guiding doesnt pay well. I also knew the career I chose doesnt pay well. Now if only I could combine the two.....Guided electrofishing surveys. |
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Posts: 171
| “anybody touches my stuff, and I’ll kill ‘em”
Lighten up, Francis.....
Yes, it is cold out. That's when I read these kind of threads. Entertaining, to say the least. Lots of good (as in well-thought-out) opinions here. I've hired a couple guides in the past....the worst one actually gave me the most info, but he was kind of a jerk. Treated me like I'd never fished before and we were trolling.....don't get me started!
Still hoping to get out once or twice more, but until then, keep the posts coming, folks!
ErieBoy75 |
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Posts: 553
Location: deephaven mn | Thanks Mr. Jonesi and everyone else who has donated a seminar or guide trip to
MI or anywhere else for that matter. I know it happens thanks. |
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| I give them a general safe run through the lake system, so that they can branch out from that, and find fish on their own. I will give away a few basic haunts, but I do not give them my "moneymakers"....I definetly save those my repeat, high tipping clients. This is all a guest should expect when running a gps, why would I give away 15+yrs experience for one low profit day? If they are good enough fishermen to try it on their own, on such big waters, then I would expect that they will find some great waypoints themselves. |
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Location: Altoona, IA | I have fished with 3 differant guides over the last 8 years, one of them once and the other two 4 or 5 times each. The first guide was great, I didn't really know anything about musky fishinng and he definately met our expectations, I do feel bad now days because I didn't realize tipping was common. With that said the other two guides have been top notch, giving advice throughout the season with a pick up of the phone, staying out well past scheduled times, marking maps when you see a guy in a resturant, etc... Oh, also spending an extra hour disecting a large area telling us when to mark the hand held.
I do appreciate what the guides do, I'm sure there are bad ones out there but they definately don't have the glamorous life that some think.
BTW, a guide that frequents this site, gave a FREE seminar to a multi species club I belong to at a location approx 250 miles away from his home. No gas money either, completely free.
Edited by matt ia 11/18/2008 9:45 PM
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Location: Rhinelander. | Your not going to catch fish on the same spot day after day! I can't believe you'd say that. You may not catch one there everyday but I have spots that are very productive and probably 3 0ut of 5 times there we will at least se fish. Now if this were an unmarked hump on maps and I took a client there and he marked it on gps I would be upset. I think he should respect me enough not to that> I would not do it to a guide if I booked one. Now if I asked him if its ok and told him him I was going to it and he said fine fine it becomes another story.
Pfeiff
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Posts: 427
Location: Wausau | I have hired five guides and when I research the guide, I look for someone who is going to appreciate my background and experience, but also understand what I expect. I look for a guide with personality, not someone who guides b/c they have get paid, but someone who wants to and the money is a bonus. I'm up-front with the fact I don't need to use their equipment, except a lure they tell me to throw - if that lure happens to be soft plastic and I catch a fish and it get's wrecked, I will tip additional money b/c I know the costs. I try to explain it would be more like fishing with a friend, than a new client. I want them to catch a fish just as much as I do. I will add that I have brought along one hand held GPS at the request of the guide. Other guides I have ask for specific GPS coordinated to enter later. These requests I feel are made with confidence knowing I will not share with others, but expect I will fish them myself. I also remind the guide that if over the next few days he's with clients and see's me working a spot I learned from him, to feel free to "cut" and I'll fish second in line. To me, that show's them you respect their job and understand the importance of guiding new clients. I have been extremely happy with 4 out of the 5 guides I have hired and 3 out of the 5 have become better friends who I stay with while out of state and fish with when they are available - which I offer gas, meals and/or beverages. The last one I hired, I believe would do the same if the opportunity presents itself next summer. I think the guide/client relationship should not be approached from a business aspect, but more personal and understanding. |
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Posts: 19
| Jonesi,
Crap!!! Out of all the times we've been out I just realized that you must have thought that I smuggled a GPS on your boat!!!!!! But, we didn't even catch a pike!!! If I see you over ThanksGiving I'm gonna make a weagle disappear with your help!!! Can't wait to hang out next week.
Mike |
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| In response to gps in the boat-
As a guide myself, who was trained by one of the only guide training programs I've heard about to date, have been privy to much information on the lake where I guide, Lac Seul. I understand the sentiment from guides who think their livelihood is being taken from them when people board their vessels with these units, but I do not share that feeling at all.
Technology is changing and is becoming more and more accessible to people everyday, and everyday that goes by it becomes cheaper, so the reality is that more and more people are going to have hand held gps units with them. With that, cell phones are becoming just the same as hand held gps units, so what are you going to do when people board with phones, not let them bring them on??? No.
There is much more to being a guide than simply knowing a spot or two. If you take people out who want to catch fish but only want you for one day of their trip, than that is what you deal with, regardless if you're an outfitter or a guide. You are getting paid to take them out and show them fish. I would hope that you would try and get that person a fish of a lifetime, even if you are only taking them for one day. That being said if you did get that person a fish of a lifetime I would bet that they would book you for another day. Most muskie fishermen know that muskies are not found in one or two spots but rather all over bodies of water.
In conclusion, I would like to reemphasize the simple fact of technology availability. It is simply a matter of time before hand held gps units are found in almost every guests' hand, and what will people do then, electronically jam them from the boat???? No they won't, it will be accepted wether you like it or not,
regards,
Patrick keating,
guide- Lac Seul |
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | There are guides out there who would never let you in their boat if you had a GPS with you. If they caught you with it, they'd kick you out. Hell, if they catch you fishing their spots without them, you're in big trouble. No, these aren't guides on LOTW or Lac Seul, these are guides who get paid hefty fees to put people on large numbers of large fish...."outfitters" as Worrall would say. But then again, I don't know of many guides who can catch 30+ 50" fish every year either...but they are out there and you won't get in their boat if you have a GPS in your pocket!!!! |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | I have fished with quite a few guides, a few of which have posted on this thread.
To be quite honest, the best guides don't have to protect one or two or three spots because they are so confident in their own abilities they think they can find fish on several different spots. Do they have a gameplan and get irritated when others are in a spot they want to fish? Sure, but the best guides can shrug that off and go find fish somewhere else. Or better yet, fish that spot later on when it is free.
Whining about GPS, taking spots, etc seems pretty unprofessional and also looks the part of someone who isn't entirely confident in their own abilities i.m.o.
Edited by Musky Brian 11/20/2008 2:17 PM
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| One thing I have learned over the years is that there are no secret spots. You say that you would never want a guide to catch you fishing 'their' spots, lol, I love it. Last time I remember, these are public lakes. I can almost guarantee you other people fish those spots too, unless you are in some remote place in Canada or something. The way I see it, if the guides don't like it, find a new job. I will never hide a GPS on someones boat, but I will be sure to ask prior to the trip. I have never hired a guide, but if I did, it would be to learn the lake.
Look at it this way. A friend offers you to go fishing with him. You are both avid fishermen, and everyday you fish is a learning experience. I know everyday is a learning experience for me at least. You come across a great spot throwing 2 different presentations, and you are working as a team. Should I never fish those spots that a friend brought me to just because he offered to take me out fishing in his boat? It could have easily been the other way around, I could have asked him to go fishing in my boat etc. etc. All I know is that I have never told someone I fished with that they can't come back to this spot or whatever. That's ridiculous. I may tell them to not tell anyone else about the spot or keep it on the downlow.
Now I pay $400 and I can't mark the areas or come back to fish them? Please.....I think the guide needs to rethink their profession in a big way.
Edited by Baby Mallard 11/20/2008 2:49 PM
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| Baby Mallard - 11/20/2008 2:19 PM
One thing I have learned over the years is that there are no secret spots.
That you know about... |
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Location: MPLS, MN | There are alot of small points and rock piles not on maps that only people who put in their time know about. I'm not going to risk not being able to fish them by bringng a GPS with. |
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| there used to be secret spots prior to GPS, there are no secret spots anymore... put in your time on water w/ a good GPS and no need for a guide. |
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Posts: 2015
| Steve Wright - 11/20/2008 4:18 PM
there used to be secret spots prior to GPS, there are no secret spots anymore... put in your time on water w/ a good GPS and no need for a guide.
LOL!!! - Ya go to Lac Suel, LOTW, or Eagle with your GPS........and there are no secret spots on any of those lakes... again LOL!
Edited by IAJustin 11/20/2008 8:29 PM
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Posts: 86
Location: University of Hartford | well there are still secret spots on eagle, its just they turn on when your not there, at least in my case.
Alex |
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| I have no problem showing a client spots and having them GPS the spots. Just because they are on a spot later doesn't mean that spot is burned - especially in S.E. WI. where these fish are used to being hunted. Each client is different - some are rookies who just want to catch one - they don't care where - and others hire me to learn not only locations, but techniques, seasonal tendencies , effects of fishing pressure etc. I've taken clients out during a weekday and placed a dozen marker buoys at the breakline on a very productive weedline holding 50+"ers outlining that structure so it was easy to figure out. I wouldn't want to hire a guide who held info back for himself. The longer you guide - you realize that those spots 20 years ago may have been your spots because they were truly unknown. Now with map chips that are reasonably accurate - there are very few secret spots anymore. I still look for them though - Fish are caught everywhere on these lakes - not just a few spots. |
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Location: New Hope MN | If you are vehemently opposed to letting your clients use GPS then let them know up front. Just be prepared for them to find someone else.
Otherwise, I suggest spot overload. Take them to 200 spots and let them mark all of them. Mix the good with ok. But again, don’t expect a repeat customer.
Or maybe do the opposite and fish spots very thoroughly. That way you want give up too many spots.
I personally will not take guide that won’t let me GPS the spots. Why would I bother? I could lose or misplace the map, but I am very unlikely to lose my GPS.
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Posts: 61
Location: Sioux Lookout On Canada | This is an issue I have had to deal with and begin to address in the past five years. I noticed through years of guiding that my repeat customers started going out on their own. By sharing information with them year after year, they begun to paint their picture for the future. At first it ticked me off but then I realized that I was successful in doing my job. Here is why.
1) I taught them how to fish.
2) I taught them how to run a boat.
3) After so many trips they knew the landmarks.
4) I made them feel confident about their abilities to help out in the boat, and how to fish. Everything from netting to knots.
5) I made them feel that it was their trip not mine.
6) I stayed connected through the off season.
7) I let them drive the boat home from up the lake or, I let them drive to the spots in the morning.
All of this was done with no GPS. Ultimately, learn the lake for how it appears to you and not what the electronics say. I build my business and services around this approach.
GPS or no GPS, today's world of fishing is changing only now, in the north. Bow mounts and fish finding technology is only starting to catch on. Anglers in the USA are far more equipped and advanced but, if you do not know your equipment you are no better off.
I gave up fighting this topic. It is much more enjoyable meeting new people and being the "ambassador to the local sport fishery", than some loud mouth smuck, who thinks that they own the spots.
Guiding and outfitting is all built around service.
I tell guides "if you want to fish... go fishing, but, if you want to guide, get ready to show your guests a trip of a life time. Everytime.
Guides do not make much money up here in a five month season. Maybe it is time to ask your customer about this next year. Communicate first and then work.
Musky Nate. You are young and determined, jut stick to your game and lighten up some.
Let's stick together on this. It is a big lake up here and you know there are fish all over the lake.
My 2cents worth for now.
Neil Michelin
Canadian Heartland Fishing
"A Guide's guide to fishing Lac Seul"
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| Neil,
Great points! I agree 110%. Steve |
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Location: syracuse indiana | i also agree. those were words that all guides should live by. i know i will....bill |
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Location: thunder bay | your very right about that Neil you and I both have been on the same page since i went up to sioux. I was just wanting to know if we were doing it the right way or the wrong. because i know you have dealt with some of the same thing's I have up there. for what everyone has said on this topic, I now know we were doing it the right way not the wrong.
Edited by muskynate 11/24/2008 1:00 PM
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| Guides put in long days in outdoor conditions. They earn what they make. Many people learn how to musky fish by going with a guide. How else would a person know what kind of geart to use.Take GB for example. 5 years ago very few people fished it. Throw in a few guides and a tournament and now it is getting slammed.
but if you are person who loves fishing their home waters, it is not a good idea to start guiding on the water. No one owns the water which is why it is so great |
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| I once talked with a Indian guide on LOW, and said he charged $150 extra for the GPS
on pressured lakes it don't matter in my opinion the good spots get pounded. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Neil,
Words well spoken, thanks sir. |
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Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Neil, that explains it dead on.
Local lakes with extreme fishing pressure are not the same as out of the way hot spots. I guide on one of the most over fished lakes in the state and offer any and all info to my clients because I want them to become better fishermen and enjoy knowing they can pass it on to others they fish with. Knowledge is key to our fishing future. Knowing how to catch and handle fish will save a few fish from poor releases. Once people get a few fish in the boat they start becoming better at the game and become a teacher also.
Muskies are a renewable resource. Muskies Inc, the DNR and other local deals keep this area stocked to make up for lost fish due to all the pressure. Poor handling is the biggest issue. I see it all the time. Fish on the floor of the boat, dropped fish, long picture sessions, etc.
I thrive to teach people to be better at all aspects of the muskie fishing game. Bringing a GPS out is only a small part of the whole package. I can show you spots on the spots but if you don't know when, why, and with what you might not ever catch a fish on it. This is why I will mark GPG units for them, mark up maps, and explain when and why to fish these spots.
Remember people that these fish patterns change from Spring to Fall. You need to learn the whole picture to truely understand why that GPS spot is so good and when to fish. Also how to go about fishing it the most productive way. ITS JUST A SPOT on a GPS otherwise. I quality guide will teach you all aspects of this spot. A guide with limited info and spots may keep it just for his clients and will not expect you to ever come back.
Sweet spots are hard to find and can take years to learn them. It can only take hours to show clients them. But thats what guides do and thats why poeple hire guides. To shorted the learning curve and get quality time on good spots. Guides should understand that and give clients the most every time out.
(My opninion) REMEMBER that this is on high pressure lakes, not small out of the way honey holes. Out of the way SWEET spots have their own rules. You must follow some different rules by some to get on these spots.
GPS is a tool, just a tool but a very good tool. Just ask your guide before you hire him/her the questions that need to be asked. I recomend clients get this done while sorting through all the guides and lakes they want to fish. Get to know your guide and what he/she has to offer you. Know what you paying for so you get the most out of your guide trip. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | There are different types of guides. some numbers or poppular lake guides won't mind it at all. But out here in the big fish land of the east we are hired to catch big fish and not to learn the water or techniques. It's all about getting the big ones.
Now $500 a day will get you in my boat and get you a great chance at a 50+ but there is no way that I would sell off my fisheries even for $10 000.
I have had a few clients come back on their own, one in 2002 came back fished 5 days and caught 5 fish and no big ones. Hired me for a day and caught 5 including a 50. This fall had a client who in 5 years fishing with me has released a 56, 53.5, 53, 50.5 and 50 or one big fish every single year. This year he fishied on his own for 8-10 days and caught 3 up to 48 and on his first of 2 days with me he caught a 53.
Even if one was to mark my spots of just remember them from fishing with me many times it's doesn't mean they will be able to come back here and nail them. It's huge waters and we all know these fish change locations. There is an advantage to been out there 100 days a year. |
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| Being upfront with a guide doesn't always work. i hired one in florida a few years back and talked to him on the phone 2-3 times and told him we would be fishing the whole week on the spots he showed us.. we did very well with him on our trip, and ran into him the next day at the ramp, and i thought we were going to come to blows!! made me feel like crap.. he later apologized and it was a shame because we had a great trip, but this ruined it.. and i would never hire him again because of it..
so be warned even if you do discuss it this can happen
Dave |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | As I said before...Outfitter/Guide. Big difference in expectations. |
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Location: Illinois | agrimm - 11/19/2008 11:17 AM I look for a guide with personality, I try to explain it would be more like fishing with a friend, than a new client. I want them to catch a fish just as much as I do. I think the guide/client relationship should not be approached from a business aspect, but more personal and understanding. I'm the oppo, it's business as usual! Put me on fish, please. Sure, we can be friendly, but I'm not paying for another friend. I'm paying for the shot at some nice fish. I did not pay your guide fee to be your groupie/netman! lol
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You do realize this thread is from 2008... |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'd pay a guide to teach me how to do something i haven't done myself or help me approach a big body of water i might be intimidated by (ie: mille lacs, eagle lake, lotw, lake michigan or lake superior), so i'm in the camp with Andy and look for someone who i'd continue to support (via recommendation) and develop a friendship with, so that if i pinged them in the future i would get help down the line.
the guides i've fished with are all guys that are the best friends you could ever want to have in life and also #*^@ good guides with a ton to offer! one guide in particular helped me to get a first fish for the 14-year old son of an important business client. it helped me to bridge a business to friendship gap with a person who's become a lifelong friend and customer. part of that experience was standing under a pontoon awning for about 5 hours waiting out a hellatious storm. if that "guide" wasn't who he is as human and friend, the whole experience would not have happened. a time for money guide would have cancelled ...
the great guides see beyond the fish ...
Edited by jonnysled 7/13/2012 10:57 AM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | sworrall - 7/13/2012 10:26 AM
You do realize this thread is from 2008...
it's a good one tho!! |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | If you are coming from out of state and I know that you will only be fishing the lake a few times after our trip, I would let you bring a GPS, but if you are a local trip I would not allow it. Think about, many guides have fished many years and countless hours to find some of the spots that we have. Why would we just hand them over to someone so that they could camp on them and burn them for us in the future?
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | leave it to mike to dig up some old dirt...lol |
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Posts: 540
Location: Leech Lake, Walker MN | I'm in with Steve
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| If you dont want people fishing your spot, quit guiding! pretty simple really |
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Posts: 8782
| Depends on where you are fishing and with whom. The community spots that everybody fishes are just that. There are spots (and lakes) that I would not even think about fishing without first making a phone call to the guides who showed them to me. And a GPS? Well, I don't fish with guides to get the exact location of spots, so I wouldn't even consider it unless they suggested it ahead of time.
I keep hearing how there are no secrets anymore... Like %^$& there aren't. |
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