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Posts: 39
| I am a relatively new angler looking for tips on fishing suckers for the first time this weekend in Eagle River. Any info on techniques, hookset, etc would be appreciated. Thanks for your help!...
Edited by Believer 10/21/2008 5:42 PM
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | This clip explains how to rig a Howie Rig and is in my opinion one of if not the best sucker rig I've ever used. It's very simple and has the best hookup ratio I've seen compared to others I've used. I know many other guys on this board use this rig.
http://upload.outdoorsfirst.com/watch.asp?id=790
Edited by Merckid 10/21/2008 6:05 PM
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Posts: 454
| Please use some sort of quick release harness. I like the Mania Lift off Rigs. Put a treble on each side of the sucker, one towards the stomach, one towards the back on opposite sides. One should also be closer to the head and one towards the center of the body. When you get a muskie to take your sucker make sure it is moving away from you before setting the hooks. Some people like to use the trolling motor to "chase down" the fish and set the hooks from right above them. Do not let the muskie hold the sucker for a long time as that will increase the chances of the fish swallowing hooks.
This type of rig requires a rubber band run through the nose of the sucker. Pretty easy to do, but takes a little practice.
Set the hooks as hard as you can, try to break the rod when you give your hookset.
Good luck! |
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Location: Des Moines IA | I like the howie rig also, but I use a slightly modified version. It's the same rig, swivel at one end, hook at the other. I then attach a larger snap around the tiger material so it can slide up and down smoothly, then instead of putting a hole in the lip of the sucker and running the whole rig through the hole, I just push the opened snap through the top of the lip, and close it. Pretty simple, very effective. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Want easy?
1) 2/0-4/0 Single Circle Hook (emphasis on CIRCLE) Mustad Demon Circles are great, especially red if you can find them
2) 80-100 lb fluro carbon (100 lb will require a crimp, 80 can be tied)
3) Large Thill slip bobber float
4) 1/2 - 1oz rubber core sinkers
5) Small Twister tails (walleye size), whole or parts to slip over the barb once you hook the sucker through the lip.
Float goes under, wait about 10 minutes, use the trolling motor to get along side the fish, lift straight up, not a snapping hookset, just pressure at all times. Net. Enjoy.
I've heard all the "you can't do that's", "you're killing fish", "they swallow it".
I've had two fish, in the 5 years I've been running flouro and circles, swallow..of about 100 fish that have taken the rig. 9 times out of 10 the circle is in the corner of the mouth and many pop out when there's slack line after the fish is in the net.
I see at least 2/3's more fish than running lift offs, suckers alot more lively and their longevity is 5x that of a lift off where you puncture the sucker.
To each his own. |
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| so 2 dead fish is ok to you then? Do you have a lift off rig and circle hook rig out at the same time to figure out your "2/3rds more" stat? |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | 1) Yup. I am pefectly fine with 80-90% survival. You? And you think by running lift-offs you get 100% survival? What's more stressful, a hok that comes out by itself in a net or cutting out 2-3 trebels?
2) Running lift offs for upwards of 20 years then circles for the last 5 gives me a pretty decent idea of how many more fish I'm seeing. Same holds true with Fluro leaders.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 10/22/2008 12:12 PM
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Posts: 454
| I have never used a cirlce rig so I am not going to comment on their effectiveness or the danger the have on a muskie (that is documented).
I use lift off rigs and I can't imagine my suckers being any more lively than they are. They swim and do whatever they want in the water with the Mania lift off rigs.
I will sacrifice a couple of missed fish to ensure they live once they are caught.
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | There's absolutely zero garuntee they'll live. How do you know what happens after it leaves the net, the bump board, the gunnels of the boat when you take time to cut hooks, take pics and/or degorge. you have no idea, I have no idea.
Fish swallow hooks no matter if its a circle or a trebel..that's documented. |
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Posts: 371
Location: Dixon, IL | 2008 Illinois Fishing Information from IDNR....Recreation Use Restrictions..All live bait in excess of 8" must be rigged with a quick set rig on Muskie lakes in Illinois!
Believer, there's famous tackle shop in Eagle River on the Main Street close to downtown of Eagle River and they would be happy to help you how to take care of suckers, rig, etc! They have ready made rigs! |
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Posts: 454
| Yes, they will swallow hooks (circle or treble) no matter what as long as you give them the time (10 minutes) before setting the hook. The premise behind a quick strike rig is that you are setting the hook QUICKLY and not allowing the fish time to swallow the hooks.
We are talking different things here. Do fish die from handling them? If not done properly yes, and even if you do everything right is there a chance they won't make it, yes. But you still net fish with circle hooks, use a bump board, take a picture, and release it. Those are different reasons for a fish not to survive. I was only talking hooks. It isn't the circle hook killing the fish, it is the 10 minutes you give it to ingest the sucker. If the sucker gets swallowed, so does the hook.
As stated, I have never used a circle rig, nor do I plan on it for the reasons stated above.
As you said, to each his own... |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | GmG,
I have used circle hooks (daiichi improved circle hooks) for over 8 years and would agree with your survival rates. In that time I have never released a fish with any part of a rig still with the fish. Yes I have had to cut rigs and hooks but never sent a fish away with any part of a rig. With that said I would still think there is some mortality, I also believe there is some mortality in the fish I release in the summer, it's just a fact and part of fishing.
I originally used a single circle hook rig and have since graduated to what I call a circle hook quick set which is one circle hook attached to a rubber band through the nostrils and another circle hook near the rear of the sucker attached with a rubber band wrapped around the sucker. The time to set the hook, or in this rigs case engage the reel and start reeling is the same as any other trebled quick set rig, the sucker is not ingested. One of the two circle hooks usually end up in the corner of the fishes mouth. I say usually because I do miss fish on this rig just like any other.
I would be interested to see how the term "quick-set" is defined in the regulations for Illinois.
I hate to see this post turn into a rig bashing thread when all a guy wanted was some quick info on sucker fishing.
Corey Meyer
Edited by muskymeyer 10/22/2008 2:06 PM
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Posts: 371
Location: Dixon, IL | Quick set rig was idea from England Pike Anglers. They care to release fish! When float go down or you know the fish take a bait (no float) with quick set rig then you do firm set the hook then take easy until the fish land. Long rod is other thing is great for quick set rigs. In' Fishermen magazine discussed about it in 1980's!
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Posts: 371
Location: Dixon, IL | 2008 Illinois Fishing Information IDNR
45) When using live bait, all live bait in excess of 8 inches in total shall be rigged with a quick set rig. The Hook shall be immediately set upon the strike. Quick set rig is defined as follows: a live bait rig with up to 2 treble hooks attached anywhere on the live bait, single hooks prohibited. The rule does not apply to trotlines, jug lines, etc. , if allowed on the lake. |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | Hmmmmm . . . . interesting description. If Wisconsin changes to this rule it looks like I will need to solder a couple tiny treble hooks onto the circle hooks to circumvent the rule.
Hopefully by that time motor trolling will be allowed on the Chippewa Flowage. 
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "All live bait in excess of 8" must be rigged with a quick set rig on Muskie lakes in Illinois!"
When I fish Illinios, I'll be sure to bring a ruler measuring no longer than 7.875" |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "The premise behind a quick strike rig is that you are setting the hook QUICKLY"
What about lures with trebs? Ever have a musky take one gullet deep? Happens all the time and I'd bet dollars to doughuts that hook set is 5x quicker than one with a lift off....first you hear the clicker, then you find the rod, then you hope the fish is swiming away from you, then you set....that can be at least 15-20 seconds. Far from QUICK in my book.
You fish your way, I'll fish mine. I won't change your mind (although I have changed others) and believe me, you wont change mine.
Don't worry, be happy. |
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | I've used both, and had success with both. Used more circle hooks on catfish and pike. A couple pike come back gut hooked, but way more in the in corner of the mouth. I personally like to quick strike everything muskie, that's just cause I'm partial to setting the hook rather than reel into the fish.
Edited by Magruter 10/22/2008 3:10 PM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
The notion that allowing a fish to swallow a sucker, and then pulling it back out is harmless is absurd.
If you think that, than you aren't thinking.
JS
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| Hope not too many minds have been changed; even the most experienced guides don't do better than 70% with circle hooks. Some of the lakes in northern Wi. are still suffering from single hook use 10 years ago. Swallow one yourself and see if you can cough it up without hurting yourself. |
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Posts: 395
Location: NW WI | As I'm still a relative newbie on QS rigs (just started to use suckers a few years ago -- just never believed in using live bait for muskies) I was looking forward to reading how some go about this...as I find the Maina rig cumbersome (just don't do it enough I guess).
It's sad when a simple question turns into a bash fest...an all too common occurrence on the Internet. |
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Posts: 454
| I think for the most part people have been respectful and just shared info and their thoughts. I hope none of my posts were considered bashing.
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| I have to agree with John Skarie on this one...just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If a fish under the size limit swallows a rig and you cut the line...imo should be ticketed for killing a fish under the size limit. no different than the guys on shore with swallow rigs.
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "If you think that, than you aren't thinking."
You fish with hooks John? because more trebels kill fish per year than circles do.
BN? What if an undersized fish ate 2 trebs up to the gullet? Whats the chances of survival then? I think you folks using trebel rigs, that don't set IMMEDIATLY, should be ticketed as well then.
I think some of you aren't understanding the premise behind CIRCLE hooks. Not jusy plain "j" hooks. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "Swallow one yourself and see if you can cough it up without hurting yourself."
Should I try a pair of 3/0 trebels and see what's worse??? |
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Posts: 344
Location: Musky Country | Believer - 10/21/2008 5:41 PM
I am a relatively new angler looking for tips on fishing suckers for the first time this weekend in Eagle River. Any info on techniques, hookset, etc would be appreciated. Thanks for your help!... |
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| no, GMG i perfectly understand your premise..I use circle hooks for cats all the time...we set once they take off with the bait...we don't let them swallow the bait for 10 minutes like you do...
sorry, I just don't agree with allowing a fish to swallow a sucker with any type of hook in it....quick set, j hook or your circle hooks....
the laws are written so you can, but that may not mean it's right.
I also find it very hard to believe you think you would have had action from 66 less fish by using a quick site over the last 5 yrs...very hard to believe..i fish in vilas all the time and we get tons of action by using quicksets ...i get way more than 20 pickups per season using my quick sets... |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I fully understand the premise of circle hooks.
You can use them in "quick strike fashion", and not let them take it for 10 minutes.
You don't let any fish swallow something if you intend to release it.
If you don't agree with that, fine, but don't pretend you know you aren't hurting fish by pulling a sucker back out it's throat with any kind of hook.
You're using this method because it catches more fish, not because it's more fish friendly.
JS |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Well Said John. Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Gander Mt Guide - 10/23/2008 1:48 PM
BN? What if an undersized fish ate 2 trebs up to the gullet? Whats the chances of survival then? I think you folks using trebel rigs, that don't set IMMEDIATLY, should be ticketed as well then.
QUOTE]
You guys have both made good points and You G.M.G. just made a case against your allowing cirle hook to be swallowed. I have followed this debate for as many years as I have had a computer. Here in Michigan I have watched guys use Treble hooks on wire leaders to tip up fish for pike. They allow the pike to swallow the minnow completly and then rip thier guts out. If the pike is too small they stick it back down the hole. Dead pike every time. Now in Wisconsin SOME OF YOU GUYS think that this rig has somehow magicly become a quickstrike rig????? I can not now or ever have been able to grasp how a treble hook swallow rig can be different in another state? Many of you have Demonized the Single J hook as a fish Killer. Granted if the fisherman allows the fish to swallow a Jhook and rips the fishes stomach when he set it that J hook is going to kill that fish. BUT------ a swallowed treble is going to kill one even faster because it has three barbs not one. I have said this a thousand times there is no such thing as a Quick strike rig. Any hook can be used to quick strike a Fish and any hook can be swallowed and cause death.
The best example I can give is Brook trout fishing with worms. I used to let brookies eat a worm until it was in the stomach before reeling them in. I killed hundreds of sub legals before I realized that I had to change my whole Idea of what is ethical. Now when mr Brookie hits my bait I hit him back. If I hook him cool, thats great! Trout for supper if its a keeper but if its a small one I remove the barbless J Hook and he goes back to grow. You see I learned that I dont have to hook and land every fish that takes my bait. So what if I dont hook them all, those fish live on to bite another day.
Now comes the truth that most of you are conditioned to disagree with. A BARBLESS J HOOK used properly is the easiest on Muskies and pike because they cause very little damage to jaw tissue. But No one uses them properly. This hook has been labeled a swallow hook when in fact it is just a hook. The truth about single hooks is that there have been instructions on packages that teach fishermen to allow pike and muskies to swallow the bait before setting. This is what you all should be fighting are these instructions. Just for the sake of sub legal pike the instructions should be banned not the hooks. I know several guys over here who use barbless 7/0 single hooks and quick set with them using tip ups and they do not kill sub legal pike. SURE THEY MISS A LOT OF FISH but they kill zero sub legals. The key words here are quick set.
So what I am saying is this, If you add what Gander and John said in the last several posts #1 We should not let a Musky or Pike or any other fish for that matter completly swallow (ANY TYPE) of hook.
#2 Any type of hook swallowed can Kill fish even Circles.
#3 Any type of hook can be used to quick set a Musky or any other type of fish.
Quick setting is an action not a thing. Its a mind set that starts with this ethical premise. I would rather miss a few and hook them all in the mouth then kill a few and risk many others so I can hook them all by letting them run with the bait.
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "You don't let any fish swallow something if you intend to release it."
But it's perfectly ok to use trebels on fish knowing darn well that there's a better than decent chance that a fish will swallow a lure gills deep.
Circles are intended to do just that, swallow and come back up and out. My success rate had been pretty good with this method. While I can't with 100% certainty say that a fish will be perfectly fine after release, nor can anybody fishing with trebels...especially if you have to take the time to cut them out of a fish or reach into the back of their throat or gills to get a lure out.
"You're using this method because it catches more fish, not because it's more fish friendly."
Isn't that the reason why everybody fishes? A new three trebel Weagle comes out and you guys are jumping all over them...why? because they aren't the easiest to get out of a fish if it takes it three hooks deep, but because they catch fish. You debarb all your hooks john?? you remove 2 out of the three trebels from your Weagles or Suicks?? That to me would be fish friendly.
Fishing is bad for fish, yet we all continue to do it. I don't agree with fishing in July and August and I rarely do it, yet I'm sure some people who are ripping me for using circles do. If we all look at the perfect way to fish musky, we'd have a week long season using no hooks.
Again, fish your way, I'll fish mine. |
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Posts: 454
| Gander-
I don't disagree with trebles being hard on fish. I think what most people are commenting on is the fact that you state that you let a fish have the sucker for "10 minutes".
I support quick strike rigs with trebles, but the hooks are set with 10 seconds of the fish taking the sucker. Never have an issue with swallowing the hooks, but I do miss fish. Could I have a better catch % letting them take it for 10 minutes - you bet! |
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Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | How about someone asking a biologist what harm, if any, comes from taking the sucker out of the fish's gullet by using a circle hook rig? The Circle hook has a good reputation of hooking in the corner of the mouth, and I believe circle hooks are used widely in C&R saltwater fishing. I know that's what we used in Florida fishing for Tarpon. |
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| I see some differences that maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. Isn't the bait used in tarpon fishing smaller in respect to the size of the mouth/throat of a tarpon as compared to using say a 16" sucker and a muskies mouth/throat?
Are you also waiting 10 minutes to set the hook fishing for tarpon?
Since you guys seem to know some fisheries biologists why don't you drop one an email and find out so we can get someone who knows more than we do on the subject.
I have used circle hooks for cats, the chunk of bait is about an inch square, they pick it up, slirp it in and take off..we grab the rod and sweep it to one side slowly..you either hook them in the side of the mouth or you don't...
Now waiting 10 minutes? by then a large musky could easily have the sucker in its gut...surely Steve you can't be defending pulling a swallowed sucker out of a suckers belly?
That just doesn't sound smart...at all..
to me using circle hooks and letting them swallow it for 10 minutes is clearly putting the musky in more danger than a quick strike.
yes we are fishing with hooks and there are times we can do harm to the muskies we catch accidentally...but he has told us he has killed 2, and he continues to yank suckers out of their bellies.
seems like a dumb idea. |
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| I've never heard of a muskie swallowing a quick set. If that was a common thing most guys wouldn't use them. Some people practice C&R cause they care about muskies, some people practice C&R so they can keep fishing. |
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Posts: 2024
| bn - 10/27/2008 2:23 PM
I see some differences that maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. Isn't the bait used in tarpon fishing smaller in respect to the size of the mouth/throat of a tarpon as compared to using say a 16" sucker and a muskies mouth/throat?
That's an interesting point. The diameter of a fish's gullet may have something to do with it as well as the size of the bait. We used probably 6x6" chunks of barracuda rigged on a circle hook for sharks and the size of the bait compared to a shark's gape is minute. We also didn't wait. The fish would pick the bait up and we'd engage the spool and as the fish swam away (without us pulling back) the circle hook would work its magic and then came the blistering 400 yard runs. Hooked perfectly in the corner of the mouth every time.
The typical method of using a circle hook is to allow the fish to swallow the bait, but I'm not so sure that's necessary. I'm not sure if our sharks had completely consumed the barracuda chunks or just held them in their mouths, but if someone does consider using circle hooks it might be worth NOT waiting and immediately engage the reel and begin applying tension. Sort of like a "quick strike circle hook." DISCLAIMER: I've caught one fish on a sucker using a quick set. I've had one strike on a quick set and caught it. I have no real opinions on the matter and am neither condoning nor finger wagging at using circle hooks. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I'd never agree to wait 30 minutes or an hour. I think 10-15 is plenty. And I do get alot of suckers swiming back up the line (not stuck in the fish or the hook) which does tell me that not every fish swallows that circle before I lift. I've also caught a few fish that haven't swallowed the sucker at all or even turned it, they won't let go of the sucker, and not even felt a hook. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | there's an answer in here somewhere that makes sense. the saltwater industry is just too big and the sport-fishing and tourney component is also penalizing to players that don't validate a hook coming out to score points. considering it an altogether "wrong" method just doesn't add up. finding out if there's some math involved for size selection makes plenty of sense rather than condeming a guy who has more experience than most but also willing to admit how and when they failed. it could be a good olive branch to the single hook mentality that could help everyone in the end.
i know i've got some in the boat and have wanted to try it but just haven't because i fundamentally hate sucker fishing for the cost and pain in the butt it can become.
what's neuswanger doing these days ... sounds like a good project for those guys to give some commentary on. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "I've never heard of a muskie swallowing a quick set."
I've seen it. Guys are trying to get stealthy with their one and two hook rigs and decide to use #6 and #8 trebels. You don't think a fish can swallow that? |
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Posts: 8818
| GMG, You said you get many more pickups. Why do you think that is? Is it just because a typical quick strike setup slows the sucker down too much?
2. What are the other advantages of using circle hooks?
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Advantages:
Suckers stay alive longer than when they're punctured or have rubber bands through the nose
Suckers are more lively and more natural
Suckers don't have a bunch of jewlery hanging off them, I really think pressured fish get smart to hooks
80-100lb fluro leaders helps camo the circle.
Believe it or not, I've seen guys use No Hook rigs with the line basically tied to a sucker. |
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| really pressured fish get smart to hooks.
Wrong..can think of 2 lakes in Southern WI they have NEVER gotten smart to...
to me if you are using circle hooks you are getting pretty desperate to catch fish at the risk of killing one over a quick strike..quick strikes work just as well on "pressured fish" ...this I am 100% certain of... |
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| also, there is a much higher "fun factor" laying the steel to a fish on a quick strike rather than dinking around twiddling your thumbs 10 minutes and then just simply reeling them in and hoping the hook gets hooked in the corner...
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | 10 years or so ago when I used circle hooks as a single hook rig I did let the muskie swallow the sucker. But the object was not to remove the sucker from the muskies belly, just the circle hook. We would run a rubber band through the suckers nostrils and attach the hook to the rubber band. When we thought the sucker was down we would try to get the fish moving away and start reeling.
I would even say in the "j" hook days the object was not to remove the sucker from the muskies belly, but to rip the hook free from the sucker and snag something on the way out.
I believe the sucker coming back out of the fish is a mute point.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | From what I've seen, yes, a slow moving sucker, or bait for that matter, will get followed for some time, if that bait or sucker looks un-natural, they'll avoid it. One circle hook with a fluro leader is about as natural of a presentation as it's going to get.
"also, there is a much higher "fun factor" laying the steel to a fish on a quick strike rather than dinking around twiddling your thumbs 10 minutes"
Says you, I love watching tip ups for hours un-end.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 10/27/2008 4:04 PM
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Location: Contrarian Island | I still think your numbers are flawed...100 fish that have eaten your rig in 5 seasons..20 fish per year...you really think 66 would not have eaten a quick strike ...? c'mon...get realses as Fenner would say...
anyway...good luck and go get a big one. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | ahhhhhhh tip-ups!!!! .... i use a single treble and a filet knife on the pike i catch |
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Posts: 371
Location: Dixon, IL | Quick set rig.......quick mean not ten minutes!
Single and circle rigs....swallowing mean dead!
I remember that I readed about researchers did study on muskies swallowing on single and circle and they don't live long! Even found a dead musky on the bottom!
Today is better than 20 years ago and I am sure that muskies survive in high percents today than years ago.
If you have old Tony Rizzo's books that he allowed muskies swallowing his bait then cut the line to let the fish back to the water....Tony think the fish will be okay because stomach have acids that would tear up the hooks but it sure kill muskies. Even Tony wait longer to let muskie swallowing a large sucker and warn his cliet to not pull musky up to surface to see how big it is then let it swim down with sucker then wait much longer to let the fish swallowing a large sucker!
I am not sure if swallowing is 100 percent dead but probably very high as much as 90 to 95 percents because one time I caught a bass and I found a fishing line from its anus and I pull the line out and the piece of hook seem almost gone because of rusted.
Quick set rig is great but I am not sure if its still good on real large suckers like between 18 and 21 inch long......bigger treble hooks!..
Size of quick set rig match the size of sucker. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | ILmuskie - 10/27/2008 5:04 PM
Single and circle rigs....swallowing mean dead!
I remember that I readed about researchers did study on muskies swallowing on single and circle and they don't live long!
you might want to read back through the thread again. nowhere is the circle hook tied to the single-hook study or to tony rizzo or to any of the musky data that's been presented so your comment is opinion without any merit.
circle hooks do not equal a dead fish ... they result in hooked fish reeled in, netted and released. there is a huge experience level in saltwater fishing and tournament activity supporting their success rate for proper technique.
the fact is that they are used in limited situations with muskies ... some are sharing their positive results and most are curious without a foundation to make a statement either way.
your statement is ill-informed, unsubstantiated and emotional at best in response to what's been put into this discussion. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | That study should have been done with trebles and with circles along with the single J hooks that were used. I cant believe the mentality that thinks a treble wont go down and a Single will. Michigan Pike anglers have been letting Pike swallow trebles for over 50 years. What the study proves is that steel(hooks) do not dissolve as once thought. There for any hooks that are swallowed and lodge in the stomach will kill them. One fish survived for one year after swallowing a hook. The hook in the stomach was examined and found to be intact. That is all the proof that anyone should need to know that all(swallowed) hooks will eventually kill them. I think its time for a second study and all three hook types should be tested. Kingfisher |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "I think its time for a second study and all three hook types should be tested."
amen to that. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Circle hooks are effective, but still there is a chance that the fish will be gut hooked or throat hooked. Also, not everybody is educated on the right circle hook to use...off set or straight circle hook....
Quick strike rigs were designed with the best interest of the musky in mind. Circle hooks are not.
Allowing a fish to swallow a bait, then pulling it back through it gullet isn't a good thing.
Quick strike rigs can be HIGHLY effective. I would not suggest using circle hooks on suckers for musky fishing as there is a chance that problems could and do happen.
Also pressured fish eat quick strike rigged suckers just fine. Now, if you are using a quick strike rig that has a ton of extra wires hanging around and off of it, and there is a huge hook in the nose, etc...then yes, pressured fish might not eat them as often.
If you are planning on sucker fishing this fall, use a quick strike rig. I personally know of a good one that is highly effective!!!
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| Definitely a lot of emotion stirred with this topic.
The growth of muskie fishing has brought constant upgrades to the way we are able to effectively catch more fish. Better equipment ranging from rods, reels, electronics, boats/motors, and tackle all have and continue to help us to effectively put more fish in the boat. Most invoation today provides us with better versions of the tools that have put fish in the boat for years.
Sucker rigging is no different. If inovative sucker fishing methods which are a modified version of past methods are designed, I beleive as an angler we are doing ourselves and the sport of musky fishing an injustice by not experimenting with them. Knowing what we know today about potential mortality to fish on live bait it is important to utilize methods that will reduce these odds.
Regardless of harness design or hook choice, it is hard to argue that the potential for problems will not increase the longer a fish has with the bait before hook set. Aside from the fish getting deeply hooked, the opportunity for a fish to snag your line in underwater structure increases.
With this said, we will never all be in agreement on the best method to use. Hopefully every angler can take an open minded aproach and relize that others may discover a better tool that is effective not only to catch fish but also increase the odds the fish will live long after the release. Whether we are talking live bait, artificials, hook choice etc.... The sport would not be what it is today if anglers did not embrace catch and release.
Edited by ranger6 10/27/2008 11:14 PM
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Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | bn,
I'm not certain if it's harmful or not. What 'sounds dumb' many times isn't, just as what sounds 'smart' many times isn't. I posed the question, open minded and willing to look at all the options, shelving my opinions and avoiding condemning out of hand. But that's me.
I have had Pike, Muskies, Bass, ands Walleyes puke large fish they have eaten in the livewell years past, so I'd guess it isn't always fatal, but again, I'm not sure.
The Tarpon rig we were using was a fairly large circle hook, and a crab on 20# mono line. The boat captain set the hook by gunning the boat's dual 250 HP motors. He told me setting the hook, reeling steadily, or anything at all except gunning the engines would result in a lost fish.
I'd bet that the Tarpon had that crab pretty well down by the time the captain got the message an Angler on deck thought a fish had that crab 45' down, but I'm not certain.
I don't think we are talking about mouth size, are we? Are we not looking at the stomach opening, and aren't those all closed; simple anatomy? The question is whether pulling an object partially or completely out of a fish's stomach would harm the fish, correct? In most cases, is the sucker all the way down? I wonder.
I've never seen a single sucker rig set the instant the fish took the bait. Saw a video once, where there was a delay of sorts but nothing exceptional, probably an average deal, so how long does it take to partially swallow a sucker? I don't know, but the Muskie I had in my tank had good sized suckers (ratio) down REALLY fast.
I don't remember any particular study done on Circle hooks and Muskies.
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Posts: 2024
| sworrall - 10/27/2008 11:30 PM
I don't remember any particular study done on Circle hooks and Muskies.
There are none. I looked pretty hard last night. There is mention in an article by Cooke and Suski (2004) that says a group of anglers reported 33% mortality using OCTOPUS style circle hooks and that the same group thought using TRUE circle hooks could greatly reduce mortality. However, there is no scientific data to refute or support this conjecture.
[Cooke, S.J. and Suski, C.D. 2004. Are circle hooks an effective tool for conserving marine and freshwater recreation catch-and-release fisheries? Aquatic Conservation: Marine and Freshwater Ecosystems 14: 299-326.]
For me, a group of anglers reporting XX% mortality is not good enough for me. I would want hard scientific proof like the study conducted by Margenau and colleagues that showed EXACTLY what happens to muskies using J-hook swallow rigs. I agree with others that it would be great if a repeat study could be done adding circle hooks and comparing mortality between gear types. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | I'm not going to do anything intentionally that may cause any internal damage to a muskies stomach, esophogus etc.
Observing that fish will "puke" stuff up after capture says nothing to the issue of whether or not you can harm internal organs by pulling a fish out it's stomach with a hook attached.
A circle hook, or any hook can easily tear inner tissue without you ever knowing.
Now of course the act of fishing in any manner can wound or kill a fish.
Knowing that, we all have choices to make.
I can't control everything that happens when fishing. A fish can swallow a bucktail, or get gill-hooked. But not because I'm letting it swallow my bait, that is my choice.
I really don't see the need for a study on this any more than I do for a study on vertical holds or the one they did on swallow rigs.
Some things you should be able to figure out on your own.
I feel I have a somewhat informed opinion on this as Aquatic Biology was my degree of choice. I'm pretty familiar with the physiology and anatomy of fishes.
So to each his own, it certainly isn't an illegal way to fish.
Just think about it a little bit.
JS
Edited by john skarie 10/28/2008 9:08 AM
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| Just don't use any hooks!!!!!  |
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| while we all understand the premise behind circle hooks, are any of us confident enough to swallow one and try to pull it back out? i agree the point is not about whether pulling a sucker out of fish's belly is bad for it, but whether there is a decent chance that the circle hook could catch the soft gullet of the fish as it's being pulled out - especially when the gullet is contracting trying to keep the sucker and the hook down in the stomach. why risk it? it's just common sense. |
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Posts: 8818
| Guest - 10/28/2008 10:29 AM
while we all understand the premise behind circle hooks, are any of us confident enough to swallow one and try to pull it back out? i agree the point is not about whether pulling a sucker out of fish's belly is bad for it, but whether there is a decent chance that the circle hook could catch the soft gullet of the fish as it's being pulled out - especially when the gullet is contracting trying to keep the sucker and the hook down in the stomach. why risk it? it's just common sense.
I'm not going to try to swallow a fish that weighs 5% of my body weight either, but that doesn't mean a fish can't do it. |
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| that makes no sense |
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| a small circle hook study was done by some of the writers of Musky Hunter a few years back when they did the single hook study.
I remember it showed Steve Heiting with a decent fish that was hooked in the gullet with a circle hook, and the fish died.
Circle hooks can and do kill fish. |
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Posts: 2378
| Guest - 10/28/2008 11:01 AM
Circle hooks can and do kill fish.
And, the same can be said for artificial lures.
Might as well just stop fishing for the stupid things. |
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