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| Not sure if there is any way to ask this without someone getting upset, sign of the times I guess, but why is it illegal to troll in parts of Wisconsin? Was it made illegal or has it simply never been made legal like most other places. I've never been to WI, so I don't really care if the law ever changes, but I've always been curious. Ever since I read "Time On The Water" many years ago I've always thought that it was kind of funny, thats funny strange not funny HaHa, that part of the state doesn't allow trolling.
After reading the sucker thread, which yes is pretty funny HaHa, I started thinking about this. I'm not a troller, so I don't really see why one would make it illegal. Sucker fishing, trolling, DCGs, whatever, there is no easy sure proof method to fishing. If there was everyone would do it. That being said, is trolling illegal because of the notion of an unfair advantage, or something else entirely?
Is there an effort being made to have this law changed or is it accepted and widely supported? I admit that I'm completely ignorant to this issue, but if I wasn't then I guess I wouldn't be asking this. Obviously the laws are somewhat different everywhere you go, so I'm not making any kind of attack on WI law makers, I just want to understand it for what it is.
Ryan | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tradition. | |
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| enough said.
life without politics? | |
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| Wisconsin always rated its lake as A, B, C. A "A" lake had natural reproduction and was no trolling to make it harder to catch them as old men like me cannot cast all day, but we could troll all day with little phsical effort. A "B" lake had a good population of musky, but no natural reproduction, the population was maintained by stocking. Trolling allowed. A "C" lake has a marginal population of musky, no natural reproduction and trolling is allowed. At least that's how I remeber it. | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | sworrall - 9/24/2008 9:04 PM
Tradition.
Yep.
JS | |
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| Tradition yes, but also I think the idea of fair chase comes into play with it, and at some point in time an esthetic developed in WI that felt motor trolling wasn't fair, however as far as I know, trolling itself has always been allowed and practiced.
There was a window of opportunity for motor trolling a few years back, and naturally guides exploited it to the fullest to get dudes fish, and there were some tales circulating of some rather impressive fish removal days in some of the smaller lakes, and that upset a lot of fisherman again.
My personal feeling is that trolling can wreak havoc on some of the smaller lakes in the state and would impact some larger waters also, if allowed. Waters are very uneven in terms of their "vulnerability" to trollers. Those that are vulnerable tend to get hit hard. My personal feeling is that a lot of trollers are meat fisherman, not musky fisherman first.
Greg Thomas has accused my bias against trolling as being the WI in me, LOL. That may be true, but personally I would hate to see WI open itself to trolling any more than what is allowed at this time. Some fisherman seem to think that all possible ways should be allowed to fish musky(or at least the ones they approve of). I just don't see the need to make it any easier than it already is to catch muskies. If you want to troll, get a boat with oars. Troll up a storm. | |
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| I troll and release all fish. I don't fish Vilas or Oneida counties much because they don't allow trolling. There loss not mine. I'll take my money elsewhere. I can see if they don't want to allow it on lakes less than 1000 acres or if they want to limit it to one line but to ban trolling because of tradition? All tradition does is lead to thick sculls. | |
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| Guest - 9/25/2008 2:32 PM
...I don't fish Vilas or Oneida counties much because they don't allow trolling. ....
That's the best argument against trolling I've heard yet...
I think way too many people would be out there killing fish if joe anybody could go out and troll. The only way I'd support motor trolling would be on lakes that were over a certain size and had a 50" size limit, and only allowed one line per angler, by permit only, the proceeds of which were used to fund stocking on lakes where trolling was allowed.
But then row-trolling is something that's pretty unique, and that's a tradition that I wouldn't want to see go away. I suspect that row trolling would die a quick death if motor trolling were allowed. Maybe tradition isn't always a bad thing.
I do think that people who are too old to cast or have some sort of disability should be able to troll, but that's about it. | |
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Posts: 78
| Another trouble with trolling is that some people would use #100 pound test and when they got a hit they would speed up their outboard and drown the fish by dragging it. Maybe there should be a horsepower limit on trolling: say 15 horses? | |
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| esoxaddict - 9/25/2008 2:48 PM
Guest - 9/25/2008 2:32 PM
...I don't fish Vilas or Oneida counties much because they don't allow trolling. ....
That's the best argument against trolling I've heard yet...
....
I do think that people who are too old to cast or have some sort of disability should be able to troll, but that's about it.
I agree wholeheartedly with line one, but don't agree that old people and disabled need to be allowed anything extra to musky fish. There are plenty of lakes and waters where they can troll to their hearts content already in WI. And, they can still hang out 3 suckers in strategic spots and catch them that way.
As to "guest" comment on tradition, heard it before, not a really well thought out comment at all, as traditions are usually formed for reasons that are rewarding in some way to the population that holds them. | |
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Location: Mayer, MN | MuskyGary - 9/25/2008 4:10 PM
Another trouble with trolling is that some people would use #100 pound test and when they got a hit they would speed up their outboard and drown the fish by dragging it. Maybe there should be a horsepower limit on trolling: say 15 horses?
How do you drown a fish?  | |
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| I don't understand how trolling would "wreak havoc" on smaller lakes...or any lake for that matter. Perhaps you could provide a couple of examples of other waters where trolling, as a specific fishing method, was shown to have "wreaked havoc" on a certain fishery? I would think it would be pretty easy to come up with a few, since trolling is allowed on virtually all lakes/water bodies on Planet Earth, except N. WI....
Why again is it a bad thing to allow anglers a perfectly safe and ethical method to catch fish?
And don't tell me "because its too easy" on some lakes. That argument cuts both ways. As you say, some lakes in Vilas are certainly better suited for trolling, and it would be a productive method of fishing. But then, some lakes are better suited for casting. If you want to use that logic, then it would follow that we need to ban casting on the lakes that are most suited for casting.
From a philosophical standpoint, I tend to disagree with arbitrary, governmental limitations/encroachments on fishing/hunting rights. Give me a solid scientific reason to justify a trolling ban (where trolling is distinguished from other legal methods of angling) and I'm definitely willing to listen.
Otherwise, I have difficulty grasping the basis for the trolling ban as anything other than purely traditional. | |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Seldom do I venture into this discussion but several comments need to be addressed. Trollers are meat hunters???? Trolling wrecks lakes??? Those are two of the most rediculas statements I have ever read on any of the 4 forums I visit. There are some issues with Wisconsin and Michigan Boundry waters where Trolling is legal if you hold a Michigan license. I troll there and release every Musky caught. At 50 I cant cast all day and will be #*^@ed if I am going to go home when tired. Answer? Troll for a while. Have a sandwich, study the lake contour lines. Trolling is a great way to discover good casting spots. I dont know why Vilas county has no trolling and frankly dont care. Just so they leave it there. Dont push that garbage on the rest of us . Trolling is ethical, safe,and a great way to cover water on any lake. Vilas has Row trolling and there are guys and Gals that are good at it. Thats real cool. I am glad they do it that way. But there is no call or reason to condemn it any where else.
There have been several incedents at one of the Michigan and Vilas county lakes where a mans truck(paintjob) was destroyed by somone with a key. This happened after an argument on the lake between a Vilas County Musky fisherman and a Michigan Musky fisherman. The argument was whether or not the Michigan angler has the right to troll the lake. Border regulations state that you are bound to the regulations of the license you hold. So guess what?? Michigan anglers can and do troll in all border lakes that share water with Vilas county. Wisconsin anglers can purchase a Michigan License and troll those lakes as well. So if you want to troll in Vilas County ,go to the border lakes and buy a Michigan license.
Vilas county has a lot of lakes and a lots history. So leave it there. Kingfisher | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Trolling doesn't kill fish, anglers do. If an angler has a kill mentality they'll kill muskies on jigs, topwater, dawgs, etc.
And of course, effectively trolling is as easy as effectively sucker fishing: Throw a line off the side and take off.
The referrence to the backtrolling days of the early 90's is misleading. A lot of fish were also killed casting as well as trolling and live bait fishing. Many guides kept fish, didn't matter how they were caught. Things have changed.
It's interesting how someone running a 4 stroke at 2mph will disrupt the 'small' lake feel and destroy the Northwoods aesthetics, but the wave runners, skiers, pleasure-boaters are just a part of the landscape. The single hook sucker guys that dot the shorelines every fall really hate trolling too.
If it's hook and line, legal, and the fish are releasable, who cares?
"If overharvest is a concern, lower the bag limits and raise the size limits. Banning a sportfishing technique is ridiculous." -Quote from a letter I recieved from the InFisherman staff in 93 in regards to the ban on trolling.
JS
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| There are plenty of lakes in Wisconsin where one can troll legally. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'class' of the fishery. There are class A waters you can troll just as there are class B and C waters you can troll. With about 800 individual waters in the state that have fishable musky populations, I think it's great that there are so many different types that allow different opportunities and experiences. Wherever you are in the state, you don't have tyo go far to find a water to troll on, just as you don't have to go far to find a water with a higher size limit. There are over 200 lakes in Wisconsin with a 40" or higher limit on muskies, way more trophy waters than any other state provides. One size (or law) definitely doesn't fit all. | |
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| Trolling creates lakes with bigger fish.....I cannot think of a single lake that trolling is not allowed on that produces larger fish than lakes where it is legal...clearly trolling increases the size of the fish in the lake.... | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ben, that is REALLY funny. | |
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| Some people think that trolling is so easy that is will wreck the lake and take all the fish out of it. While trolling can be simply dragging a bait behind the boat to do it right take quite a bit of skill.
Kingfisher, You can troll in a MI/WI boundry lake with a WI liscence also but you can only troll on the MI sign. I have trolled LVD and everytime I do it I have people scream at me that it's illegal, at first I tried to explain it to them but know I just ignore them. | |
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| sworrall - 9/25/2008 9:25 PM
Ben, that is REALLY funny.
Why would you call that really funny? That is the wave causes wind argument wearing pajamas and lipstick.  | |
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| Matt DeVos - 9/25/2008 4:55 PM
I don't understand how trolling would "wreak havoc" on smaller lakes...or any lake for that matter. Perhaps you could provide a couple of examples of other waters where trolling, as a specific fishing method, was shown to have "wreaked havoc" on a certain fishery? I would think it would be pretty easy to come up with a few, since trolling is allowed on virtually all lakes/water bodies on Planet Earth, except N. WI....
Long post, so let me split it and respond to one portion at a time. I could give you examples, and I am sure others on this board could quickly add lakes to that list where it would wreak havoc on the lake, and let me remind you, opening lakes to trolling opens all species up to trolling and frankly some lakes are easy to troll. If those lakes have a stockpile of trophy fish in any class, they can quickly be impacted to the point of drastically affecting the size profile in that lake in short order. Many lakes cary big fish simply because the big fish have a refuge area that is difficult for anglers to easily access. This can be more than one class of fish. Trolling can take away the refuge on some of the smaller lakes and fish harvest does occur in many of WI lakes and fish harvest of trophy. There is also the question of buzzing motors, and since trolling is allowed speed trolling also can become an issue with shoreline erosion and habitat degradement from increase wakes. Someone mentioned personal watercraft, well they are bothersome enough that a lot of counties have laws now limiting the hours of usage.
Why again is it a bad thing to allow anglers a perfectly safe and ethical method to catch fish?
Why is it a bad thing to keep it limited to the many waters alread available to trolling? Actually I think Vilas, Oneida etc that ban motor trolling are in fact giving themselves an advertising point if they ever care to use it. BTW, I don't see anyone recommending banning all trolling though yes, I would vote for it.
And don't tell me "because its too easy" on some lakes. That argument cuts both ways. As you say, some lakes in Vilas are certainly better suited for trolling, and it would be a productive method of fishing. But then, some lakes are better suited for casting. If you want to use that logic, then it would follow that we need to ban casting on the lakes that are most suited for casting.
It IS too easy on some lakes, and should be restricted for the reasons I listed above. No musky fishing is exactly rocket science to start with, but trolling is real easy on some lakes and don't think it doesn't impact the fishery on big lakes either, it can. And we have a lake in KY that it has impacted imo, and it is easy to troll.
From a philosophical standpoint, I tend to disagree with arbitrary, governmental limitations/encroachments on fishing/hunting rights. Give me a solid scientific reason to justify a trolling ban (where trolling is distinguished from other legal methods of angling) and I'm definitely willing to listen.
You better pay attention to philosophical standpoints. The government certainly does. Should I ask you as to what the science is, prohibitting using nets and shallow barb spears as fishing methods? Or shining and snagging, is there really a scientific arguement against using those methods? I don't mind fish having seasonal sanctuary, being restricted on both harvest and methods used to effect harvest, and I don't mind fish have sanctuary created spatially by the difficulty of straining parts of their environment. I feel like a lot of what is involved with fishing and hunting has little to do with science. It is ok with me for those things to exist, and fish I never see to exist. I am happy that some guys find a new frontier fishing suspended muskies over deep water basins, and I believe that those willing to learn that, should reap the rewards of their learning and time investment. I am not overly fond of any schlupp in a power boat being able to fish all over the deep water basins where sanctuary once existed, with simply the turn of a key or the pull of a rope, and I would imagine they would be disappointed also.
Otherwise, I have difficulty grasping the basis for the trolling ban as anything other than purely traditional.
I fish in NE WI because of wilderness, nature esthetics, not because I think it is scientifically merritted. So, why should those areas, benefitting from my cash outflow, not consider my reasons for going up there when they pass laws regulating fishing? Just a question.
Edited by firstsixfeet 9/25/2008 10:54 PM
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| We can troll all waters here in IL, and guess what? Our waters aren't "wrecked" and in my opinion, IL produces better quality average fish than WI. Sometimes, pleasure traffic is so bad, trolling is the only way to effectively fish, and there are plenty of WI waters that are similar. The anti-trolling WI crowd are just elitists, who want to control their little corner of the world. The way to fight that is simply not to fish those waters, leave the 34" fish to those guys and fish big fish waters elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I love fishing in WI, but I call it "sight fishing." I go there to look at the pretty water, loons, trees, etc., not necessarily for big fish. | |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | it's kinda funny that the place that puts out some of the smallest muskies out there is one of the last places that bans motor trolling and thinks that will help their cause. I guess I'm missing something here....
From my experiences trolling, I have little doubt I would go out there and catch nothing but seaweed and pike  | |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Every one of the most respected and held up as the best Musky fisherman in the world except maybe Mesikomer has trolled or done video on trolling. Seric,Johnson, Pearson, Lazarus, Maina, Ramsel,LeBlanc,Lawton, and there are many more. These are the guys that this industry holds up as the best of the best and they all troll. This Idea that trolling is just tossing a bait out the back and taking off is ludicris. I guess you could just do that and fail but I like to use my tools. I like to map out lakes with my Gps as I troll the breaks looking for those sweet spots to cast. Trolling is a great tool to locate points and inside turns,weed beds and other structure. The areas in Wisconsin closed to trolling dont matter to me. I dont go there for that reason. They dont get my tourist money. That goes where I can fish the way I like to fish. My wife and I have been fishing muskies for 8 years together now and I have been fishing them for 12 years myself. I have caught them casting,trolling and with live bait. You see for me I need the whole thing ,I need it all and I want it all. I want a sucker on a short line ,I want a top water strike and want a drag screaming while I am trolling.
You could say the same thing about deer hunting eh Vilas?? Better ban guns because its too easy eh?? Be a man cast a carrot or better yet jump out of a tree with a knife in your teeth. Guns wreck the woods. Sound stupid yet? And this same bunch thinks a J hook kills fish too. Better ban J hooks because they are killers. You might as well just say dont fish for Muskies in Our state.
Well Vilas, the truth is trolling doesnt hurt anything. J hooks dont kill fish people do. The more you ban the less you will be loved and when you close your mind you also close your eyes. A great sportsman once said, Use a little common sense and leave only footprints. The question is how big is YOUR footprint on the resource. Kingfisher | |
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| The only thing I want to say here is why and how the trolling ban came about. I wasn't living here at the time, but heard this firsthand while having a beer with Roger Sabota and Lou Eich. They were here when it was banned.
Several people figured out how to backtroll and many, many 30 lbers were being caught and kept. Then more people figured out how to back troll and more 30 lbers were being kept. Trig Solberg who was on the DNR board at the time fast tracked a ban on trolling in Vilas and Oneida Co in an attempt to protect the big fish from over harvest and now we have the postion fishing rule.
Don't know if it is true, but Roger and Lou have been around the musky fishing industry for more years than a lot of us have even been alive. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i lease my office from Trig and will ask him next time i see him. i've always been against it and for the traditional vote ... no particular reason, just don't like to be casting and have a troller come along behind or beside me which i've found to be pretty typical when fishing trolling lakes.
i totally agree with you though jason on the more disruptive influence of jetskis, pontoons and pleasure-boaters to the quiet feeling of the northwoods lakes.
number of lines would be the key to this because without i can see lots of pontoon setups on some of the lakes here that might be at least to me offensive.
question ... it motor trolling went away, what would the future of row-trolling be? | |
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| Seriously, nobody should ever be allowed to wear pajamas and lipstick! Freaky. | |
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| It is possible to get a trolling permit from the DNR for disabled individuals. However, I've seem some pretty questionable cases of that when a reasonably fit looking guy hops out of his car runs around all over the place getting his rig ready and then pulls the "disabled" card so he can troll. Just like anything there are those who will play the system to get what they want.
Regarding LVD I've had talks with the wardens from both states whos job it is to enforce the rules. Michigan guy said no problem and then talked with the Wisconsin warden. He also said no problem and when questioned directly on the deal about which side of the line you have to be on he said it didn't matter. So that's all I know. I don't troll on LVD but as of this discussion last year neither warden had a problem with it.
Edited by Pete Stoltman 9/26/2008 9:26 AM
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| Motor trolling was in effect before backtrolling became an issue. The walleye guys invented backtrolling, but it was really misnamed, because it was really position fishing. Using the motor to stay on a piece of structure, the spot on the spot, if you will. Eventually, the muskie guides figured out that actually trolling in reverse, backtrolling, was legal, and a good way to skirt the no motor trolling law. The law was reworked after that, to the present mess of wording we have now.
I agree with tradition being the reason we still ave no motor trolling in those counties. Do I care? No. I care when others would try to restrict me from trolling in the lakes I can legally troll in now. Not just banning it, but trying to limit the number of lines I can use.
As for wrecking the lake? Nonsense. I've never hooked fish as deeply trolling, as I have casting. I release every fish I catch, either way. I am no more predisposed to keeping a trolled fish, as a fish caught casting. And I think most, if not all, C&R conscious angler fel the same.
As for being easy? Only the ignorant would say that. If you are that opposed to trolling, you've probably never done it. At least correctly, which means you don't have a clue. It's a lot more than just dragging a lure around the lake.
Leave the no trolling up there. I don't care one way or the other. And I agree with Ben. Look at Green Bay, Marinette, Mille Lacs, Vermillion, St Claire, Georgian Bay, etc. All big fish waters. All allow trolling.
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| "Look at Green Bay, Marinette, Mille Lacs, Vermillion, St Claire, Georgian Bay, etc. All big fish waters. All allow trolling. "
They also all have size limits that are well over the statewide 34" size limit in WI. Then there's the fact that you are trying to compare them to lakes that are 200 acres, rely 100% on natural reproduction, and only have quality fish in them because practically nobody fishes there.
I have to laugh at the people who say "trolling won't affect the lake". Many of those same people are bitching about the additional pressure their favorite lakes are seeing. Add in a method of fishing where you can have multiple lines out and cover water at 5x the rate you can cover casting, reaching fish that you simply cannot cast at effectively, and you say it "won't affect the fishery"? But somehow three more boats at the landing on a Saturday DOES? (but only when its someone with out of state plates, right?)
If trolling has no effect on the fishery, why are so many guys complaining about the "pontoon trollers" in MN?
Stalker... You say our waters aren't "wrecked" here in IL? Compared to what? Pretty sure you fish the Fox Chain, don't you? I can't imagine anyone who has fished the Fox Chain more than a few times, and spent any time at all fishing in Vilas County could possibly say our fisheries are fine down here. You said it yourself -- sometimes the waters are so crowded the only way you can actually catch a fish is trolling.
Don't get me wrong, I like trolling. I've done it enough to realize that it's not just dragging baits around the lake. You have to know what baits to run, at what depths, how much line out, where in the spread to put them so they run where you want them in relation to the structure. Then you have to know the structure well enough to put the boat where it nees to be, and actually put the baits where they need to go... And I have no problem with trolling on lakes that are substantial enough, that recieve plenty of stocking, and have decent size limits. But a lake that's 150 acres and might have 50 muskies in the whole lake, with a 34" size limit on top of that? Three guys with a pontoon boat and a bag of shore lunch could turn a little gem into the dead sea in one summer.
I think it pretty simple -- there's a little corner of WI where you can't troll unless you want to row. If you don't like that, there's 600 other lakes in the state where you can fish.
And Sloan... Come on. Why do you think they have that 11:00 - 5:00 only (or whatever the times are), 200 feet from shore only, etc. rule? Yes, the jet skis and pleasure boaters are a fact of life, and the lakes DO belong to everyone. But are you really trying to tell me that jet ski's whizzing around the lake aren't wrecking the quiet northwoods experience for a lot of people? Wait, that's right -- you fish in Minocqua, nevermind
Edited by esoxaddict 9/26/2008 11:27 AM
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Location: New London, Wisconsin | "We can troll all waters here in IL, and guess what? Our waters aren't "wrecked" and in my opinion, IL produces better quality average fish than WI. Sometimes, pleasure traffic is so bad, trolling is the only way to effectively fish, and there are plenty of WI waters that are similar. The anti-trolling WI crowd are just elitists, who want to control their little corner of the world. The way to fight that is simply not to fish those waters, leave the 34" fish to those guys and fish big fish waters elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I love fishing in WI, but I call it "sight fishing." I go there to look at the pretty water, loons, trees, etc., not necessarily for big fish."
WOW, now this is a funny post. Talk about "broadbrushing and stereotyping" our little corner of the world. While "sight fishing" I've done quite well for myself this season. I can't imagine fishing muskies on ugly water, no loons or trees etc...There's a lot to be said for aesthetics while fishing, in my opinion. Give it a try sometime and you'll be suprised how peaceful it is without a motor running (cheaper too, using less gas) all the while having a chance at many fish larger than 34". Vilas County Musky Marathon, for example, shows a number of fish larger than 34", and that's just the people who took the time to register.
Good luck this fall, regardless of how you choose to fish. In the end, we all need to stick together as fishermen and women.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The question was why trolling is illegal in N Wisconsin. Keep in mind, there's OTHER species of fish in our lakes too, so it's illegal for all. Biological impact? Nil. Harm to the fishery? Nil. Bother folks who A) Don't like trolling B) Like to be in peace and quiet and are worried trolling will disrupt same C ) are otherwise bothered by the concept...tradition. Does it bother me either way? No. I can always row troll, and have the boat to do that from. Can I find anything that isn't a 'social issue' reason to support the law? Not really, no. From my perspective the reason we can't troll up here is because the preponderance of the local vocal population doesn't want us to, and I was there and a Guide when it changed, both for backtrolling and then back the other way, Oneida has it right by my memory.
Tradition.
Same reason Jim Kalkofen, me, and a group of others who wanted the season had one heck of a time getting a black powder season lobbied into existence. Traditionalists didn't like that idea at all.
Now I DO fish Canada and other areas in the US. Some smaller waters at times, too, and larger water with more walleye angling pressure than I see on Pelican or George in a year, most trolling. I don't remember a single instance when I thought to myself, 'Man I wish that guy wasn't trolling, the disturbance to my Zen Angling for the Mystic Beast that is Muskie is horrible!', but that's me.
FSF,
Ben did a great job with Research Forum driven hyperbole on that one. Funny stuff. | |
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| Trolling doesn't kill fish, people kill fish. Raise the size limits, educate anglers, and troll on! | |
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| Once again, interesting posts on a well-chewed topic. Lots of diverse perspectives and I appreciate the courtesy with which they are shared.
I live in Michigan where we can troll, and I've done a lot of it. It is not easy to troll well; effective trolling requires careful thought on matching your gear to the environment. Read the trolling chapter in Joe Bucher's "Crankbait Secrets" and you'll see that he's got it down to a science. Its my impression that Kingfisher is also a master troller, as are Shep and certainly Extreeme Mike. All these guys promote catch and release.*
* Note - I dreamed that if Shep happens to snag a Democrat while trolling, he unhooks the poor sap at boatside with big channel locks and then as the dazed and bleeding person is trying to climb into his boat, Shep "releases" the catch by wacking him/her on the head with a small bat. The liberal slides back down into the water and Shep adds 10 points to his tally. He gets 20 points if the person is wearing tiedye teeshirt, and 50 points if that teeshirt says either "Grateful Dead" or "Phish".
(Shep......I thought you would get a chuckle from this nonsense about you. As always, best wishes to you and yours. Signed, your favorite liberal.) | |
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| I am kind of in the middle of this one but has far has this method catching more fish. I have fished the Kevin Worrall tournament on Pelican for ~17 years. Only missed a few years. There are usually around 10 legal (above 34") muskie caught each year. The one year that back trolling was legal, in my memory serves me right there were ~28 legal fish caught that year and I remember quite a few were caught back trolling. I would like Norm Wild opinion on this especially for Pelican. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the one time we trolled for muskies was on legal water ... tired cause we had a long, long week. we put out a couple jakes behind the boat and then drove til the drag clicked off and caught a 50" muskie. we trolled along a known nice breakline ... did a turn and a pause at an inside turn ... caught a big fish.
now ... were we lucky? or were we good?
i just remember being too tired and chuckin a couple baits into the water and then driving down a piece of structure ... so it must have been luck.
people playing the depth and baitfish location games with presentation specifics using leaded lines, certain baits, downriggers etc ... yep, those guys are good ... darn good ... but running big body baits down a weed edge ... somebody tell me that's a skill other than not driving your baits into the thick weeds ... i'm not trying to denegrate trolling but some lakes ... come on you can fool a dummy but sometimes it simply is what it is ... and lots of the small northern wisconsin lakes are simply that ... drive the boat and catch a fish. lived in minnesota on water since i was 8 years old trolling our lives away ... sure you learn some techniques but it's the easier variety of choices to contact fish ...
certain times of year (november) on certain bodys of water (vermillion for example) though without it as an available technique it could make for a rough outing. | |
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| Not sure if I laughed harder at Ranger's lib bit, or at EA's response to my agreement with BenR. hehehe
I wasn't being the least bit serious with that part of my answer, EA. I just said it to as an example of how much things get overanalyzed sometimes.
And sled, I would say you were mostly lucky. But, you did put the bait in front of a fish that was ready to eat. I bet you couldn't repeat that day in and day out, though, untill you learned what you do right, and what not to do that is wrong.
Like I said, thoug. I really don't care if I never get to troll in those counties. Just so long as I can troll as I currently do on my home waters.
Edited by Shep 9/26/2008 2:34 PM
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Location: Brookfield, WI | Trolling is a good way for the fairer, gentler sex to fish. Ladies have no business throwing big masculine lures full of sharp nasty hooks. Too dangerous. They could get hurt.
It also is a fine tool for fat, lazy, gray haired guys with poor vision, who like to drink beer and sit on a soft comfortable seat, and who think casting hurts their shoulders and affects their golf swing. Sucker fishing works for those kind of guys, too.
Kevin
Playing with strangers tomorrow.
Edited by MuskyHopeful 9/26/2008 3:40 PM
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Muskystalker - indirectly answered the question: "The anti-trolling WI crowd are just elitists, who want to control their little corner of the world. "
Yes! No matter what we think, it's "their little corner of the world", and they have every right to control it! However, I wouldn't call them elitists. This is the USA, we all have certain rights and freedoms. As nonresidents we have to respect the residents wishes and rights. It's the same going to Canada or Norway or Russia, or China or any where else outside of where you live, i.e., you're not at home. The rules and laws change. Did you know it's illegal to posess chewing gum in Singapore? The penalty is public flogging. If the people of Vilas & Onieda counties, etc. don't want motor trolling, so be it. As fisherman we all have a choice, i.e., either not fish there or fish there by their rules. It's no different than you going to Utah to muskie fish, i.e., no live bait! NO SUCKERS! Oh my, what to do? Why is it illegal? Are all Utah residents a bunch of fly fishing elitist's? I don't think so. They probably have pretty sound reasons for the no live bait rule - the most obvious being to keep out invasive species, and very easy enforcement. Obviously the majority of the Utah residents have to support it. Just like the majority of folks in Vilas county have to support the no motor trolling regulation there.
Have fun!
Al | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "Kingfisher, You can troll in a MI/WI boundry lake with a WI liscence also but you can only troll on the MI sign."
LVD is the only wis/mich boundry water you can troll the Michigan side from. Stated right in the Michigan regs. | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | ""The anti-trolling WI crowd are just elitists, who want to control their little corner of the world. "
That "little corner" encompasses about 2000 lakes and some of the best musky fishing in the state. The WDNR are Elitists? Then why isn't there a 54" size limit on Green Bay? | |
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| MuskyStalker - 9/25/2008 11:00 PM
We can troll all waters here in IL, and guess what? Our waters aren't "wrecked" and in my opinion, IL produces better quality average fish than WI. .
Stuff those WI lakes with shad, pack the fertility in until they are near winterkill status every year because of 02 depletion under the ice, and then see how they stack up. | |
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| Ya it sure would be a shame to allow a tactic that would allow more fish to be caught. Maybe we shoudl outlaw DC10's right away also since they are so effective that it's not even fair. (sarcasim)
Some will say that you can row troll but that is only for those who have a seperate special boat for it and are physically fit enough to do it. | |
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| You all crack me up, Jesus Sled, an old woman catches a 50 plus inch muskie on a worm and bobber.....is she good or lucky? You do like to pat yourself on the back for sure. WI is Elitist, but on debating nonsense. Trolling would not effect those 2000 lakes at all...they are not really fragile. WI is what it is...a bit of the north that has decent fishing...nothing more or less regardless of a 54 inch limit on Green Bay or trolling...just a nice state with nice fishing...that is it... | |
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| Shep - 9/26/2008 9:48 AM
As for wrecking the lake? Nonsense. I've never hooked fish as deeply trolling, as I have casting. I release every fish I catch, either way. I am no more predisposed to keeping a trolled fish, as a fish caught casting. And I think most, if not all, C&R conscious angler fel the same.
Another post I will respond to in parts.
Unfortunately if WI opened up all waters to trolling not all trollers would be Sheps. Unfortunately also not all anglers that are effective trollers are C&R oriented. Unfortunately some lakes are really laid out to be a trolling bonanza, of course until the population gets thinned out some, and maybe we should argue how many big fish can be harvested in a short time before a lake is in effect wrecked?
As for being easy? Only the ignorant would say that. If you are that opposed to trolling, you've probably never done it. At least correctly, which means you don't have a clue. It's a lot more than just dragging a lure around the lake.
Tollers when challenged, typically want to boost their "art" and "science" with wild claims like this. Ignorant I might be, but it doesn't take brains to figure out some trolling schemes, and be very effective. I am surprised you would even come up with this type statement. I am smart enough to recognize that some situations are tough to troll effectively, and really take some determination to keep at it, but evidently SOME of us don't recognize cherry bowl situations as well as others. Trolling can be spectacularly easy in some lakes and some situations, and can be effective WITHOUT GPS OR A DEPTHFINDER. My biggest KY fish=trolling, my highest size average=trolling, my most fish per hour average, probably trolling. My actual trolling skills as opposed to an expert troller, negligible. I caught my biggest with two rods stuck in boat seats and then strapping the seat in the down position to hold them, and just drove the boat around and caught it. I didn't need to know a whole lot about trolling to catch fish, and neither does anyone else in many situations. It aint rocket science. I certainly have seen enough guys boasting about the dried musky on their deck and asking if anyone wants it, to know, trolling in some waters rewards limited skills as long as you got a boat and a motor.
Get on a lake with a major shoreline break all the way around it, limited cover, limited floating weeds, easy pickins. Get a few guides out with dudes with money and some planer boards and go hit the cisco lakes in late June and July, how long does it take to find the right bait and depth with 8 lines out behind the boat in a 60-90 foot spread? How long do you think it takes guys to figure out how to fish that 60-90 foot spread when allowed?
Edited by firstsixfeet 9/26/2008 8:46 PM
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| Wow Firstsixfeet, you are a great cynic unless you are responding to your own thoughts.... | |
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| reelman - 9/26/2008 8:02 PM
Ya it sure would be a shame to allow a tactic that would allow more fish to be caught. Maybe we shoudl outlaw DC10's right away also since they are so effective that it's not even fair. (sarcasim)
Some will say that you can row troll but that is only for those who have a seperate special boat for it and are physically fit enough to do it.
You can choose any boat you want when you spend your money. Row trollers can be pulled with a very cheap, gas conserving auto, motorcyle or bike.
It can't ALL be about making it easier ALL the time.
What would be next, a trolley system so cripples could climb mountains(or claim they did?  | |
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| BenR - 9/26/2008 8:53 PM
Wow Firstsixfeet, you are a great cynic unless you are responding to your own thoughts....
I'll bet Sworrall is laughin! | |
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| You are a thinker, which I really appreciate...perhaps you should subject your own thoughts to the same scrutiny you apply to others...not sure where the joke is? | |
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| So people can't talk on the phone and fish! duh. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | FSF, you gotta quit making all that sense. It disturbs people. Eventually, some not-so-well-meaning-fella will compare you to a dude in a TV show about a neighborhood bar, just to try to let you know he thinks you don't. Hopeful, you too, that golf swing just plain seems too important. I speak from experience here...
It's tradition, seriously. Tradition is hard to break, and not always a bad thing. Just sometimes. And then, things just scream for action! That's why a long time ago that goof ran around on a horse and jabbed sticks at windmills, right? | |
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| sworrall - 9/26/2008 10:12 PM
FSF, you gotta quit making all that sense. It disturbs people. Eventually, some not-so-well-meaning-fella will compare you to a dude in a TV show about a neighborhood bar, just to try to let you know he thinks you don't. Hopeful, you too, that golf swing just plain seems too important. I speak from experience here...
It's tradition, seriously. Tradition is hard to break, and not always a bad thing. Just sometimes. And then, things just scream for action! That's why a long time ago that goof ran around on a horse and jabbed sticks at windmills, right?
He is and has always been a troller of his own hot air...but that is for better or worse legal in all states.:) | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "Ya it sure would be a shame to allow a tactic that would allow more fish to be caught. "
Nobody is stopping you from trolling in Vilas and Onieda.......get a row troller. You trolling guys have options...stay at home and whine that Vilas/Onieda is no troll or go rent a row boat and work.
I love the fact that its no troll up there. Quiet, no worries about lines and people getting to close...traditional old school fishing, You cast, you row, you work.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The trick is to find someone else to row the rig... | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | oar locks for an Esox? Hmmmmm. now I'm wondering. | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | esoxaddict - 9/26/2008 10:40 AM
And Sloan... Come on. Why do you think they have that 11:00 - 5:00 only (or whatever the times are), 200 feet from shore only, etc. rule? Yes, the jet skis and pleasure boaters are a fact of life, and the lakes DO belong to everyone. But are you really trying to tell me that jet ski's whizzing around the lake aren't wrecking the quiet northwoods experience for a lot of people? Wait, that's right -- you fish in Minocqua, nevermind ;-)
Have honestly only seen an restricted hour rule on lakes with an association that impliments it (very few). And even then, have never seen it enforced. Don't really know what that has to do with the discussion since the only time Ive witnessed motor trollers trolling on plane was on the ocean.
My point was 'yes', jet skis do kind of wreck the NW feel, which is why I stated that a 4 stroke run at 2mph isn't going to disrupt anything.
The pontoon trollers piss people off over in MN because they're mishandling and killing fish, not because they're catching them.
If trolling were legalized up here I always thought that a line limit, like 1 per angler - maximum of 4 lines per boat would be in order.
Still can't figure out how a sportfishing technique kills fish, not the person implimenting it.
Pencils also mispell words, and guns have been known to pull their own trigger.
JS
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "If trolling were legalized up here I always thought that a line limit, like 1 per angler - maximum of 4 lines per boat would be in order. "
They'd have to do that statewide......Lake Mich trollers would go ballisitc. | |
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | ""If trolling were legalized up here I always thought that a line limit, like 1 per angler - maximum of 4 lines per boat would be in order. "
They'd have to do that statewide......Lake Mich trollers would go ballisitc."
Why would this have to effect the Lake Mich(or Superior) trollers when they operate under specific regs and licenses for the Great Lakes?? It wouldnt!!! | |
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| Trolling isn't fishing----I have trolled in Canada a couple times --and we caught some fish---If I had to troll to catch a Musky I would fish for something else. I refuse to troll now that I have done it and see what it is all about. Not even close to being the same as catching a fish casting--or a figure 8 strike, or topwater strike, or Night fishing. Come on--Trollers are not fishemen. No respect given to trollers from me or my fellow Musky fishermen. maybe we are old fashioned but in our Club--If you have to go and troll to catch a Musky--JUST QUIT. I WANT TO SAY THAT AS ROW TROLLING GOES----That is what we still consider fishing---Takes a special angler to Row Troll up a Musky----I SAY ROW TROLL AWAY !!! TRADITION is what it's all about. | |
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | esox1,
So does you and your club feel the same about sucker fishing?
Edited by castmaster 9/27/2008 12:46 PM
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "Why would this have to effect the Lake Mich(or Superior) trollers when they operate under specific regs and licenses for the Great Lakes??"
Because the rest of the state is 3 lines per angler. If you go to 1 line per person up north only you'll end up with an enforcement nightmare bigger than the no troll currently is. If you have a lines per angler througout the state it realy should be consistant throughout the state. | |
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| J.Sloan - 9/27/2008 10:41 AM
Still can't figure out how a sportfishing technique kills fish, not the person implimenting it.
Pencils also mispell words, and guns have been known to pull their own trigger.
JS
Trolling doesn't kill fish, that's true Jason. But I do believe that opening the lakes in Vilas and Oneida counties to trolling would put a a segment of the population who ordinarily would not muskie fish on the water, the same crowd who A. Would not know how to safely release a fish and B. Would be far less likely to release them anyway. It's not that trolling is bad. Its what could and likely would happen if you were allowed to troll that's bad.
I'm not against trolling at all. I'll admit there have been times when I looked around on a tough day and thought "CRAP I wish we could troll!" and no times when I've ever been anywhere else and thought "crap, I wish we couldn't troll here!" I really only have two reasons for agreeing with the trolling ban
1. Tradition isn't always a bad thing
2. If you give people a way to mess something up, you can guarantee that someone will.
The pontoon trollers are a perfect example or that. And those are the same people who probably wouldn't put forth the time and effort to go out there and cast if they weren't allowed to troll. | |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Gander Mt Guide - 9/26/2008 6:59 PM
"Kingfisher, You can troll in a MI/WI boundry lake with a WI liscence also but you can only troll on the MI sign."
LVD is the only wis/mich boundry water you can troll the Michigan side from. Stated right in the Michigan regs.
Almost Wrong, Michigan regulations booklet states that you are bound by the license that you hold. If you hold a Michigan License you are to follow Michigan rules on Border waters. LVD , SMOKEY, CHAULK HILLS, IMpoundment etc etc etc .
If you hold a Wisconsin license you follow Wisconsin rules.
Especially Smokey which has about 100 feet in Wisconsin and 98 percent in Michigan. I troll the whole lake and never even get into Wisconsin waters. Ill get a paste from the DNR WEBSITE. Kingfisher
Itried to paste it but got a lot of little squares. True about Lac V.D. The first paragragh in the Michigan regs on Border waters states this. If regulations differ then you are follow the rules in the license that you have. This applies to all border waters except LVD. Where trolling is only allowed on the Michigan side of the line. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS, If you follow your states rules you are following the lawregarding border waters. Kingfisher
Edited by Kingfisher 9/27/2008 11:55 PM
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I didn't read through every single post, but there seems to be a theme of "trolling = more fish dying" theme going on.
I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery.
Trolling has been a tradition in MN and Canada for decades. Many of the most well-known muskie men in MN and Canada are serious trollers in the fall and other times of the year as well.
The notion that trolling is done by people who can't catch them casting, or are lazy, or don't know how to release them, or won't release them is completely absurd.
Bottome line, trolling is illegal because a segment of fishermen in WI didn't like it.
There was and is no biological reason to outlaw trolling.
JS
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | john skarie - 9/28/2008 9:10 AM
I didn't read through every single post, but there seems to be a theme of "trolling = more fish dying" theme going on.
I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery.
Trolling has been a tradition in MN and Canada for decades. Many of the most well-known muskie men in MN and Canada are serious trollers in the fall and other times of the year as well.
The notion that trolling is done by people who can't catch them casting, or are lazy, or don't know how to release them, or won't release them is completely absurd.
Bottome line, trolling is illegal because a segment of fishermen in WI didn't like it.
There was and is no biological reason to outlaw trolling.
JS
Well said, Kingfisher
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Page 58 of the WDNR regs, second to last bullet........"Trolling is permitted on Wisconsin-Michigan boundry waters EXCEPT Vilas County boundry waters, where trolling is prohibited" So with a Wisconsin permit, if you're trolling any boundry water (michigan side) you're in violation.
Michigan wardens won't launch in Wisconsin waters to patrol when there's no Michigan launch (Tenderfoot is a perfect example), enforcement is up to WDNR. Thus the total no troll with a Wisconsin permit. I have been told that because the Michigan regs allow trolling the Michigan side of LVD, WDNR wouldn't be enforcing any trolling on the Mich side of LVD...."we have plenty to do in Wisconsin waters, than worry about what happens on the Michigan side of Lac Vieux Desert"...Mike McKenzie, Vilas Co WDNR
Even with a Michigan permit, according to their regs on Boundry Waters,you're only allowed to troll the Michigan side of LVD.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/28/2008 11:53 AM
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "Even with a Michigan permit, according to their regs on Boundry Waters,you're only allowed to troll the Michigan side of LVD."
Isnt that what Kingfisher stated 3 posts above this??
This here is the MAJOR problem we are facing in this country. People get so defensive in support of their position or opinion that they really dont hear what others are saying. I see it on these boards and to a much greater extent in society in general. Until we open our minds to opinions and ideas that are different from our own we are doomed to repeat past mistakes.
For example Steve mentioning that opening trolling would open it for ALL species, and I can see where there may be concern with an increase in the harvest of walleyes. Definitely something to take into account, and something I think many forget to factor into this debate seeing as we focus mainly on muskies.
A wise man once said...." God gave us 2 ears and one mouth so we could listen twice as much as we talk". To bad MANY more people dont follow that. Instead they have this idea that debates are won not on merits of the argument but by talking over people and being the loudest voice. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | JS, CastMASTER, well said. | |
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Location: The desert | john skarie - 9/28/2008 8:10 AM
I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery.
Lake Trout in the great lakes. Ok, ok so it was mostly commercial fishing but there was still some general angler input into thier decline. Its a bad example but an example nonetheless.
Tradition is right on. I'd be fine with opening trolling, but then none of my fish would count. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | easy Ben ... was out fishing (casting) while you've been fishing by keyboard.
i'm a traditionaliset, against changing things based on my own experiences on the water ... there are always those for and those against. i'm for what it is right now and against any changes ...
we got 6 fish casting this weekend and lost 2 more ... and had a blast on a nice quiet northwoods lake with nobody trolling through or around us ... ahhhhhhh the peace and quiet of the northwoods ... rippin' cranks on the deep edges thankfully with padded rod handles ... : ) | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Pointer;
I'm assuming that commercial fising of lakers meant they were keeping catches.
That's really not a fair comparison to trollers that release muskies.
Obviously some trollers don't, but the context of commercial fishermen doesn't really applly to a comparison to muskie fishermen.
At any rate, I'll continue to troll and not feel on bit guilty of being a "fish killer", or lazy or anythng else.
Hope you all have a good season.
JS | |
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Location: The desert | JS,
Apparently you didnt read this part "Its a bad example". Of course commercial fisherman are keeping their catch. What kind of commercial fishery releases everything? | |
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| john skarie - 9/28/2008 8:10 AM
I didn't read through every single post, but there seems to be a theme of "trolling = more fish dying" theme going on.
I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery.
Trolling has been a tradition in MN and Canada for decades. Many of the most well-known muskie men in MN and Canada are serious trollers in the fall and other times of the year as well.
The notion that trolling is done by people who can't catch them casting, or are lazy, or don't know how to release them, or won't release them is completely absurd.
Bottome line, trolling is illegal because a segment of fishermen in WI didn't like it.
There was and is no biological reason to outlaw trolling.
JS
will post once more, even at the risk of once again upsetting some of the thinner skinned posters on the board. Luckily, I don't believe John to be particularly dainty. IJohn, your first point, trolling= more fish dying, actually that point can be made rather easily. Here's some reasoning #1 More trophy fish caught means more trophy fish die. #2 All you guys need to go back and re read Oneida Esox's post on this thread. I don't even believe he states a viewpoint on trolling in it, he simply gives some oral history. I was fishing the Chip when the backtrolling thing occurred, but have heard the same story independent of Oneida's sources, from both a DNR fish manager and NE WI fishermen. #3 Numbers of fish handled is directly proportional to numbers of fish killed by handling, no way to avoid this with an increase in the catch, and hey, and when fish get off the shallow weedlines and suspend in deeper water during warm weather, instead of a dead bite, now fisherman can go out and catch them, hall them up out of the depths into the warm surface temps and then work to land and unhook them. #4 Easily trolled lakes will increase the chance of a fish encountering an incompetent handler or a trophy seeker out to impress the back yard neighbors. Actually, I don't think, in a perfect world, trolling=more fish dying(although actually it would equate to that, because it would equate to more fish being caught and...see above about increased handling/increased death relationship), so, sorry everybody, we live in an imperfect world. Legalize trolling and first the sharp fisherman would hit the lakes along with the guides, quickly zeroing on heretofore, unkown riches. Then word gets out and they get hammered. See handling losses and trophy harvest above. Ask knowledgeable fisherman about the ability of fisherman alone to change the size structure, trophy population, and actual population in lakes, and they can quickly refer to lakes they have known or perhaps some well known lakes with situations that have been publicized. Here's a lake to think about, Wabigoon. Bigger water there, but clearly a situation where angling pressure affected the population dynamic of muskies. Trolling lake example of trollers affecting a fishery, easy, Delevan Lake northern pike fishery. Declining in quality and numbers due to the high quality, easy trolling fishery it once was. Pound the heck out of a population, handle a bunch of fish, harvest some trophies and things change. Probable example of trolling affecting a musky lake, Green River. Comparing huge water areas where musky aren't even the main focus of most fisherman to the collection of smaller NE WI waters seems to be a repeated theme on this thread, but hey let's get real, it aint an apples to apples comparison in any way shape or form. As for noted musky men trolling, I am not sure exactly how that relates to the argument. Let me throw this out, noted politicians have been found to engage in unethical and at times illegal behaviours. Is that what you mean? I think a lot of people tuned in to watch Pete Mania over at the Bay with the multi rod set, the planers, the big spread. Caught a couple nice fish, but not exactly heart pounding action landing them. Want to see those things show up on Trout Lake, High, Twin, The Mani Chain? How about cabin owners taking their guest out now for not only a tour of the lake on the big boat, but also musky fishing excursions??? How about those guys east of Detroit with their spreads. Want to see those all over Minnie, Tomahawk, Big, maybe the Eagle River Chain? In the perfect world, we would all troll just a simple setup and a couple lines right? Actually John, trolling is done by "people who can't catch them casting, and people that are lazy, and those that cannot release them and those that will not release them" and I can guarantee it. I have seen it too many times. I sometimes think musky trollers envision all musky trollers as a generalized personification of themselves. You envision a high catch and release ethic, good handling, fish respecting bunch of trollers out there, not only catching and releasing a bunch of musky, but having a darn good time doing it, while protecting and enhancing the environment, the world and the fellowship of man. NEWSFLASH Bad things happen to good lakes. I have shoreline trolled in KY, no problem, no cover anyway since it has all eroded into the lake, start that and tear up delicate weed fringes while eroding shorelines, heck, speed troll the same, helluva wake that way! Get out there and troll the isolated weed beds on flats.....until they're gone. Roll out that 60 foot spread until every body in the lake has to detour around you to get from point a to z, and then if they do clip your line, get in a shouting, car keying, shooting confrontation with them. It will happen. Guides will make maximum use of any trolling law. If I was a guide I think I would want it too. I have fished enough newbies and dudes over the years to know that it is harder than heck to get an incompetent a musky. I have proved to myself, and maybe the world, that incompetents, heck, even me, can catch muskies trolling, Dudes can simply reel them in! I guess if I were the counties in NE WI that restrict(not ban)trolling to row boats, I would want to continue the ban on motor trolling, just on the basis of the Law of Uninteded Consequences. I see a lot of good reasons to not allow trolling in this area. No, they aren't all scientific, but hey, I think they are all good. | |
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| You see Sled and Firstsixfeet...the idea that you guys are currently taking a moment to think before your posting is encouraging and you are learning...I can appreciate your growth..cheers...Ben | |
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| I fish MN waters. I don't have a problem with trolling as long as it is done appropriately. I think people who use suckers is more unethical than trolling. Again, I don't have a problem with people using suckers as long as it is done appropriately. I will be trolling this fall a lot, and I guarantee you all of those fish will be released as good, if not better than all of the fish I caught casting all summer. Actually, I know they will be released better because of the cooler water temperatures the mortality rate decreases.
Also, the point that more muskies being caught results in more dead muskies is true. But, that is like saying the cowgirl catches so many fish, so maybe we should ban that lure because it is catching too many fish. Banning trolling because it will catch too many fish is laughable. The cowgirl has been such a hot bait, resulting in more fish being caught and more fish dieing because of it. Should we ban the cowgirl? LOL
Edited by Baby Mallard 9/28/2008 11:56 PM
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Saying that more fish will be caught if trolling is allowed is an assumption.
I have been on the water many times where trollers get blanked while casters catch fish that day.
Some of you make it sound like trolling is some magical tactict that puts fish in the boat day in and day out.
That couldn't be further from the truth.
As far as using Wabigoon as an example, I don't think it was trolling that killed all those fish. It was casting and soaking suckers.
If the logic is that trolling is bad because more fish will be caught leading to more delayed mortality, than should we suypport having limits on how many fish you can catch in a year no matter what the tactic. Or how many days you should be able to fish in a season?
Is the guys who fishes on week a year and trolls going to kill more by delayed mortality than the guy fishing on a weekly basis casting?
If you don't like trolling fine, but this attitude that trollers are more harmful than casters to the fishery is not realistic or based on any kind of sound logic.
JS
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "Saying that more fish will be caught if trolling is allowed is an assumption."
Ask Herbeck how well he did backtrolling North Twin. His susccess was part of the reason there's a no troll up there.
Its not an assumption that if you cover more water, quicker, you're going to see more fish, its matter of math.
I don't agree with the folks who are saying it's more harmfull though. Any time a fish bites into hooks, its not going to be pretty for the fish, whether it's casting or trolling. | |
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Location: Barrington, Il | Herbie caught more fish on single hook sucker rigs on North Twin than trolling. He still regrets it. The only fish he killed trolling was the 47# from Trout. Why is it OK to fish a breakline with suckers but not a trolled lure? | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | this whole thing has been discussed and we're now moving toward the same place all historical threads have ... but, millsie you bring up a good point. north twin, trout ... maybe tom, pelican and a couple more are unique to the majority of smaller lakes in oneida and vilas county and would be the place to start if there were to be an initiative to change the current status.
you bring up a good question ...
over and under on the locking of this thread is about 4 more posts | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
You can troll spinnerbaits till your blue in the face, but if that's not the presentation fish want you won't catch anything.
I catch more fish a year casting per hour of effort than trolling.
Most of my fishing partners would say the same.
JS | |
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| I do not troll unless casting isn't working (but I support the right to troll), and I absolutely love the northwoods, but trolling wrecking a lake? Please! Try upping the 34" limits first. Yeah, a bunch of big fish were kept when trolling was legal, but that was a long time ago. Musky fishing has changed, that just wouln't happen now. As far as fishing on ugly water is concerned, I'd rather catch big fish....
Edited by MuskyStalker 9/29/2008 3:01 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | MuskyStalker - 9/29/2008 2:58 PM
Musky fishing has changed, that just wouln't happen now. ....
go to boulder jct. sometime... you would be surprised at how things have not changed | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "over and under on the locking of this thread is about 4 more posts"
I dunno, its been pretty civil if you ask me.
Boulder Junction has changed, haven't you noticed all the cool new lights and parking spaces? They resurfaced the whole town about 2 years ago. | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "I catch more fish a year casting per hour of effort than trolling. "
Ask Mike Koepp, Dan Busch, Dennis Radloff and Steve Milliat if the same holds true for them. Remember, we can troll three lines here. Hard to cast three lines at one time. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Maybe the answer lies somewhere in changing the 3 line rule.
For those that claim delayed mortality worries because of increased catches, how can you not want to ban 3 lines when muskie fishing?
How many more fish are caught because you can drag a sucker and cast?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | john skarie - 9/29/2008 3:54 PM
Maybe the answer lies somewhere in changing the 3 line rule.
that along with applicable bodies of water are the notions that could make sense for a debate and potential changes to the current state. this whole argument gets misconstrued seasonally because there are some unique circumstances to consider. it's not a black and white topic when you put everything into the logic for or against.
and whether it's popular or not there are some things that are most easily understood having a front-row seat in the area.
a few that come to mind:
- number of lines allowed
- size limits vs. stocking and population dynamics
- size and structure of lakes
not unlike the pelican lake limit ... it may work for some but is not appropriate for all lakes in the area. | |
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| john skarie - 9/29/2008 3:54 PM
Maybe the answer lies somewhere in changing the 3 line rule.
For those that claim delayed mortality worries because of increased catches, how can you not want to ban 3 lines when muskie fishing?
How many more fish are caught because you can drag a sucker and cast?
If we could pick and choose, I'd favor trolling along with increased size limits, minimum lake size restrictions, and a one line per angler rule. But since we all know that's not going to happen any time soon, I gotta put my trolling vote squarely in the "leave well enough alone" box.
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| GMG, Comparing Ratloff's trolling on Green Bay to trooling up north is ludicrous! You try casting a body of water like GB and tell me how well you do at it!
I get a kick out of people who are saying that it's so nice to be up north and not have to worry about the noise made by trollers. Are you guys serious? With all the ski boats and PWC's you are worried about the noise of someone trolling at 4mph with a 8 horse 4 stroke?
If trolling were legal there wouldn't be a law saying that you had to do it. You could still cast till your heart is content. It would just allow those of us who have the equipement and knowledge for trolling to do it. BTW I would still mainlly cast but it would be a nice option when I'm tired or moving from spot tot spot. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | reelman - 9/29/2008 11:30 PM
I get a kick out of people who are saying that it's so nice to be up north and not have to worry about the noise made by trollers. Are you guys serious? t.
i get a kick out of all the dupage county authorities regarding life in northern wisconsin.
name thirty or forty lakes without looking at a map and then tell me you know our waters and what's best for them. | |
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| I don't have to live there to know that ski boats and PWC's are louder and more annoying than someone trolling with a 8hp 4 stroke. ANd why are they "your" lakes? I own them as muh as you do.
And where the heck is DuPage County? | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | reelman has a point, the waters do belong to everyone, that's the way it is. Therein lies the problem. I think we all 'get it', some folks approve, some don't, and for varying reasons. So far, I see equal merit in several arguments made in this discussion, let's stick to the subject, please. | |
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| Amen Castmaster | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | ski boats and pwc's on the chains during the peak months ... minocqua, mani, sugar camp (light), eagle river etc... the lakes i'm talking about don't have "traffic" from these kind of boaters and yes, if you knew the area a little better you would understand what i'm talking about ... just like if some knew the 3 line vs. 1 line situation and especially if some knew a few select lakes that might be adversly affected.
the point about ownership was never made ... the point is toward having a better understanding of what you are dealing with that comes from familiarity.
working a spot and having someone troll around or through you happens on waters i've spent a lot of time on ... it's something that we don't have to cope with here due to the current trolling regulations and there are many people who use the smaller lakes who would like to keep it that way.
not sure where this whole sound of the motor thing has come from but it seems to be a made up thing from the counter-point.
i run a merc 2-stroke so obviously i'm not concerned about "noise" ... | |
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| Most of the WI "traditionalists" haven't spent much time on water where trolling it allowed. If they had, they'd know that trollers virtually never get in the way.
Trolling isn't a surefire technique. Not by a long-shot. Again, you've obviously never done much of it if you think so.
If you think trolling should be banned because it kills fish, so should live bait. If WI had a clue, they'd say trolling is fine but single hook sucker rigs aren't. Get your traditionalist heads out of the sand. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 9/30/2008 7:57 AM
Most of the WI "traditionalists" haven't spent much time on water where trolling it allowed. If they had, they'd know that trollers virtually never get in the way. .
where do you come up with that? | |
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| notably, motor trolling is illegal statewide, unless there is an exemption listed in the regulations by lake or county. it's a semantic point, but an interesting one.
GMG, Comparing Ratloff's trolling on Green Bay to trooling up north is ludicrous! You try casting a body of water like GB and tell me how well you do at it!
that's an accurate statement.
so for a better apples-to-apples comparison, we should look at how allowing trolling on selective lakes paired with increased size limits has worked in NW WI.
Barron, Bayfield, Burnett, Washburn, certain lakes in Sawyer County...mostly paired with increased size limits to 40", 45", or even 50".
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| "working a spot and having someone troll around or through you happens on waters i've spent a lot of time on ... it's something that we don't have to cope with here due to the current trolling regulations and there are many people who use the smaller lakes who would like to keep it that way."
I've had more casters cut me off or think nothing of driving right next to me and start casting after they see you are working a fish then problems with trollers but there are jerks and idiots in both camps so it's not fair to label one groups as unsportsmanlike because of the actions of a few.
The sound thing was brought up by another poster when he said that he didn't want trollers ruining the peace and quite of northern lakes. | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "GMG, Comparing Ratloff's trolling on Green Bay to trooling up north is ludicrous! You try casting a body of water like GB and tell me how well you do at it! "
1) Dennis isn't from GreenBay, he's from Oconomowoc, he began guiding (and trolling) the lakes down here like Ochauchee, Oconomowoc and Pewaukee long BEFORE Green Bay was ever a Musky fishery. Matter of fact he still guides for Musky here, he might even be in the Milwaukee area as we speak. He's written many articles for Musky Hunter and other publications about speed trolling Suicks...DOWN HERE. Dennis isn't a strictly GB angler.
2) Dennis casts up in GB as well as trolls. He'll be the first to tell you so. How do you think he caught that giant tiger this year?
3) both the above are accurate statements.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 9:26 AM
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| SO did Dennis fish out Ochauchee by trolling? Of course not, it's as good today as it's ever been and trolling has always been legal there. While I've never fished Ochauchee from what I understand it has intense preasure and probably has more "pontoon trollers" than just about any other lake in Wisconsin yet the fishery is still good. So much for trollers raping and pilaging the lakes. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | reelman - 9/30/2008 9:14 AM
I've had more casters cut me off or think nothing of driving right next to me and start casting after they see you are working a fish then problems with trollers but there are jerks and idiots in both camps so it's not fair to label one groups as unsportsmanlike because of the actions of a few.
True
if you'd read back to some things i've written and then take a look at what lambeau is writing you'll see what the compromise position is. this is a delicate subject with lots of variables. if all things are considered the "traditionalists" could be negotiated with and there could be a logical solution to this debate that might have a chance to find it's way into reality. the current approach that the northern wisconsin tradition is wrong will only give you an annual argument to play with and no results.
knowing the waters where it might apply is the first place to start ... not unlike the success that was found on pelican for the 50" size limit. it may apply there but definitely not on other waters in northern wisconsin. motor trolling is a very similar situation ... | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | 1) Ochauchee has depth and spots for fish to retreat to that probably would never get touched by trollers.
2) With all those pleasure boaters, anglers who fish it regularly wil tell you that you're done out there by 10-12 am until sunset, that leaves half the day where Musky can do there thing and aren't fished as hard as lakes up north. Pewaukee is the same thing.
3) Waukesha county allows trolling, Vilas doesn't. Sorta nice to have the option to fish where I want. If folks don't like the no troll up north, don't go. Minnesota allows it, but 1 line, we don't and allow 3. Sorry, but diversity is a slice of life. Tradition in Vilas is something you won't break no matter how much you say this kills that or this isn't fair or minnesota does this.......the rules are what the rules are. Live with them or don't.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 9:38 AM
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| "Sorta nice to have the option to fish where I want"
I couldn't agree more but not allowing trolling is limiting options. Allowing it would still allow you to cast. How would you feel is some lakes were designated "trolling only" and it would be illegal to cast a lure in them?
Tradition may be hard to change but tradition for no legitamite reason makes no sence and should be changed. You harp on the Boulder Junction area for there traditions, why is that? | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | reelman - 9/30/2008 9:49 AM
Tradition may be hard to change but tradition for no legitamite reason makes no sence and should be changed. You harp on the Boulder Junction area for there traditions, why is that?
single hook sucker rigs and shore-sitting ... then the viewing coolers ...
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| Jonny, I agree the things you mention need to be changed but they are tradition after all which is the main argument that the anti-trollers bring up. | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "How would you feel is some lakes were designated "trolling only""
I wouldn't be nearly as salty as you, I'd deal with it an move on. With 15,000 in-land lakes in Wisconsin and Greenbay, I'm sure I can get my fill of trolling and casting.
We have a traditon of eating turkey for thanksgiving dinner, no legitimate reason, its just tradition. Do I need somebody's OK to do this? Is it right or wrong? Will it kill somebody? Will it limit other's ability to enjoy Thanksgiving?
Vilas and Onieda Counties have a tradition of no trolling, they allowed it for a bit and it was banned again. They aren't saying you can't fish there, they are saying they don't like motor trolling. They do however say that you can row troll, so, row-row-row your boat....or don't. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the argument has to do with some of the smaller lakes and at least from me wouldn't apply to some bodies of water ... i mentioned a few as examples, the 3 line situation is another, the walleye situation although i don't believe it's as impactful as some spearing allowances are but certainly applies. it's not "just" a traditionalist debate but also is there to protect the resources and was decided by the dnr to do just that.
i grew up in minnesota and trolled a lot when i was younger and know a little about what to do ... some of what i put on the threads is ho-hum tongue-in-cheek for sure but there are lakes that i fish frequently that i would just hate to see trolled by the variety of anglers that would give it a shot. the trollers on this board represent a very small percentage of the folks that would be out there doing it on these kinds of waters if it were allowed. i say allow it on the places where trolling is an art and not a "net" for lack of a better term. | |
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| Tradition is that we eat turkey on Thanksgiving but there isn't a law that say you can't eat ham on Thanksgiving, or ever tacos if you want to.
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Tradition means something different to everybody, you may want to eat Tacos, I want nachos. Tradition to Vilas and Onieda Co's means no motor trolling, to Waukesha County it means trolling.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 10:40 AM
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| Reelman: "SO did Dennis fish out Ochauchee by trolling?"
Pretty sure Dennis probably releases all of his fish. Many anglers up North still do not.
Reelman: "...it's as good today as it's ever been and trolling has always been legal there."
So you don't know how much better it would be if trolling wasn't allowed, do you?
Reelman: "While I've never fished Ochauchee from what I understand it has intense preasure and probably has more "pontoon trollers" than just about any other lake in Wisconsin..."
And that, to you, is a GOOD thing?
Reelman: "yet the fishery is still good."
Compared to what, exactly?
Reelman: "So much for trollers raping and pilaging the lakes."
I suspect that's exactly what the guys who make the laws said when they signed the dotted line on the "no trolling in Vilas and Oneida Counties" law.
We can argue until the cows come home about whether its right or wrong, but people who know way more than us decided it was best if trolling was left to the people with oars.
Can anybody tell me why that's such a bad thing?
Edited by esoxaddict 9/30/2008 11:05 AM
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| "We can argue until the cows come home about whether its right or wrong, but people who know way more than us decided it was best if trolling was left to the people with oars"
Would these same people"that know more than us" support the 34" size limit, 3 lines, and the proposed early spring muskie season too? If so, I am not sure how much faith I would put into them! Tradition and Biology are two very different things. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I feel it's a bad thing whenever fisheries policies are dictated by personal beliefs and not subject to science and "the truth".
Tradition does not mean right or wrong, it just means it's been that way for a long time.
Spearing northerns has been a long time tradition in MN. Science will clearly show you that it has resulted in very few opportunities for trophy northerns in lakes with long spearing traditions.
JS | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | John, MN DNR only allows one line...where's the scientific data that supports more than one hurts the fishery? And using suckers that are over 6" or 12" hurts the fishery? And using trebel hooks without a spinner hurts the fishery?
There's all kinds of regs out there that aren't based on scientific data.
Does LOTW's have a northern spearing tradition? Its one of the best northern trophy waters there is.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 11:55 AM
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Location: The desert | john skarie - 9/30/2008 11:35 AM
Spearing northerns has been a long time tradition in MN. Science will clearly show you that it has resulted in very few opportunities for trophy northerns in lakes with long spearing traditions.
JS
Could you point me to the studies showing that clear science?
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Dead Horse I think. I don't want to see this thread locked.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 12:19 PM
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Location: Barrington, Il | Jonny,
The DNR did NOT ban trolling. From a biological standpoint they saw no reason not to allow trolling. It would make the wardens jobs alot easier. Yes, there were some big fish kept by a few people backtrolling that angered some people. But there are big fished killed by people fishing suckers every year and thats OK. It was voted down at the spring hearings. That is how we ended up with the position fishing rules. It was voted down by those same guys sitting on shore with single hook sucker rigs, drinking beer by the fire, because you have to "work" for your fish. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | In the context of spearing northerns, lakes have been literally "speared out" of trophy pike in a very short time.
Case in point Kabekona on Leech. As the word got out that there were big pike there, more spearers showed up. It only took a few years for the avg. pike size to go from above average with good numbers of 40" fish for the County to a below average size in Cass County.
I worked for the DNR office in Walker and heard many stories of lakes being quickly depleted of big pike. Those lakes took years to come back if they ever did.
The common denomintor being lots of spear houses until they fished them out and moved on to the next lake that people found big pike in.
So, there you have "tradition" that goes on which has a very profound and sometimes drastic effect on a fishery.
You can't C&R a speared fish, and trophy pike are very, very vulnerable to the spearer.
For the record, I grew up spearing and know quite a bit about it. I'm not just a jaded critic looking in from the outside.
Now, as for they "science" behind allowing only a line per angler, it has clearly been shown that more fish, all species here not just talking about muskies, can and will die with multiple lines. Especially true when fishing live bait on active fish. When you have multiple bobbers going down, fish often swallow hooks as you can only unhook one at a time. You either are forced to keep them or throw them back to die.
Now I'm not going to argue about every law that MN has, some are not based soley on science, and I don't agree with them if they aren't.
My point is that I've never seen the science that says trolling for muskies will have more of a negative impact on a fishery than casting will.
I've also never heard of a case where that was even thought to have happened.
So I'm of the opinion that the trolling ban was put in place because a segment of the anglers wanted it that way.
Anyway, I'm not really for or against it, couldn't care less. Just enjoying the discussion.
I do very much so fight to keep laws out resource management that are the "will of the people" when they are not supported by biology in MN. That way of running our resources can be a very slippery slope.
JS
Edited by john skarie 9/30/2008 4:33 PM
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | This has probably been mentioned already, but another thing about the no-troll rule I don't care for is the fact that since they don't want you trolling for muskies, you can't troll for walleyes. Or pike or lakers. As I get back into multi-species angling more and more, it kinda sucks that Lindy Rigs, bottom bouncers, etc are unavailable for use. Yeah, I know, wait for the perfect wind and drift. Also, under the current position fishing law, it would be impossible to keep your line vertical while employing many of these techniques (while under power). I know many of the muskie guys who don't want trolling to be legal for muskies wouldn't care if it were legal for other species, except for the fact that it would be un-enforcable to allow species specific trolling. Bummer.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | jason ... would you support overall or are you thinking specific lakes where you think it should change? we may disagree and we may not but i respect your opinion mostly for your years of experience and time out there seeing almost everythign going on. also, what is your opinion of the general consensus of the guides and generational fishermen in the area? ...
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "As I get back into multi-species angling more and more, it kinda sucks that Lindy Rigs, bottom bouncers, etc are unavailable for use."
What's wrong with drifting them? I do. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Two other things brought up;
A treble hook has to be part of a lure in MN. This is because it's to easy to snag with them and it used to be a problem in many rivers, especially on the North Shore. Simple philosophy there.
The size of sucker minnows has to with laws regarding transporting them.
Has nothing to do with the "science" of whether or not they hurt the fishery.
In MN you can't transport live game-fish. Suckers over 12" long are not considered minnows but game fish.
You can fish with them if you buy them from a whole-sale bait dealer that is certified disease free and transport them if you have a sales reciept.
The transport regs are there help stop the spread of exotics.
JS
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "This is because it's to easy to snag with them and it used to be a problem in many rivers, especially on the North Shore."
"used to be a probem"...Its not any more? Which means its an old, antiquated, TRADITIONAL reg that you live with right? Sorta like no-trolling regs in Northern Wisconsin?
"Now, as for they "science" behind allowing only a line per angler, it has clearly been shown that more fish, all species here not just talking about muskies, can and will die with multiple lines."
MN allows two per angler ice fishing? That's ok? especially for the pre-spawn northern pike in Zipple bay?
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 7:33 PM
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Snagging isn't much of a problem anymore BECAUSE of the reg change and increased enforcement.
Listen, this post is about trolling. If you have a legitimate argument for the damage that trolling does, did or can do than fine.
I'm pretty sure I never claimed that WI is the only place where there may be regs that aren't based on science. In fact I specifically said I'm opposed to them in MN as well.
So stick to the subject at hand and quit busting my nards over everything else.
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Its about trolling in Wisconsin, not Minnesota. Its been stated.....TRADITION is the force behind the reg and has ZERO to do with damage of the fishery, but for a PRECEPTION of damage or potential damage. The point behind bringing up dumb rules in Minnesota, is simple. Concentrate on those rules YOU deal with in Minnesota and worry less about ours. Become a tax payer here, then spout off about what Wisconsin does or doesn't do. I love crusaders from other states who want to "Save" Wisconsin. | |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Dude;
I didn't spout off to anybody..
I already said I don't care what they do in WI.
Sorry I tried to enjoy a discussion about a question you didn't even ask in the first place.
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| In MN you can't transport live game-fish. Suckers over 12" long are not considered minnows but game fish.
not to split hairs, but suckers over 12" are considered rough fish in MN, not game fish.
some pertinent definitions:
Minnows–
Members of the minnow family, except carp and goldfish; bullheads, ciscoes, lake whitefish, goldeyes, and mooneyes (not over seven inches long); suckers (not over 12 inches long); mud minnows, leeches, tadpole madtoms and stonecats.
Rough fish–
Carp, buffalo, sucker, sheepshead, bowfin, burbot, cisco, gar, goldeye, and bullhead.
Angling Methods-
Using whole or parts of game fish, goldfish, or carp for bait is unlawful.
Transporting Fish-
Except while on the body of water where taken, live fish may not be
transported in a quantity of water sufficient to keep them alive unless the
fish are bait minnows or the person is authorized to do so by the DNR.
why's that matter?
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | This thread should have been locked right after Steve's very first post......"tradition". | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Gander Mt Guide - 9/30/2008 8:24 PM
I love crusaders from other states who want to "Save" Wisconsin.
i just wanted to see it written another time ... | |
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| Its about trolling in Wisconsin, not Minnesota. Its been stated.....TRADITION is the force behind the reg and has ZERO to do with damage of the fishery, but for a PRECEPTION of damage or potential damage. The point behind bringing up dumb rules in Minnesota, is simple. Concentrate on those rules YOU deal with in Minnesota and worry less about ours. Become a tax payer here, then spout off about what Wisconsin does or doesn't do. I love crusaders from other states who want to "Save" Wisconsin.
why so defensive about this John? no one's crusading, just commenting.
since i'm from WI i'm allowed to have an opinion but Skarie isn't?
i think the no trolling rule is dumb too. i don't care enough one way or the other to do anything about it, but i'll talk about my opinion and everyone else can too.
This thread should have been locked right after Steve's very first post......"tradition".
why? so people can't express opinions about it that are different than yours?
sheesh...
tradition isn't right or wrong, it just is what it is.
the situation in NW WI is interesting; trolling is allowed on waters that are comparable to many in NE WI, even some quite small lakes, and it hasn't seemed to harm the fishery.
if the regulations aren't about real damage, but rather the perception of damage, isn't talking about it a good way to change perception?
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| If I'm not mistaken, some of those "crusaders" probably sent an e-mail to support the 54" limit on Green Bay. Guess they shouldn't have since it is not their State???? | |
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Location: The desert | John, that was a serious question from me, can you please point me to the science/study done on spearing. I do not want 'stories' from a DNR office. I want something written, like an actual study. Thanks. | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | jason ... would you support overall or are you thinking specific lakes where you think it should change? we may disagree and we may not but i respect your opinion mostly for your years of experience and time out there seeing almost everythign going on. also, what is your opinion of the general consensus of the guides and generational fishermen in the area? ...
Sled,
I would support opening up trolling across the board. If I had my way, offer a $5 trolling stamp, much like a Great Lakes stamp, and with it carried (while trolling) a 50" size limit and 1 over 20" on the walleyes. 1 rod per angler, max 4 per boat. Would be specific to waters where trolling was previously illegal, wouldn't effect the Winnebago guys, Great Lakes, rowtrollers, etc.
'That would be too many regs and too confusing'. Pick up the regs and read for 5 minutes, you'd figure it out.
As far as the word on the street... Definitely a generational gap, in general. 50/50 overall from what I see. The young guys say "I let 'em all go anyway, so who cares. Open it up". The more salty veteran-types say "I was never allowed to troll, so neither should you."
Nothing is going to change. Tradition has it's hold. I respect everyones opinion and can see both sides. I'm heading to Hayward to film with Tanner Wildes and Bill Schwartz for a few days, see you down the road.
JS
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "why? so people can't express opinions about it that are different than yours?
sheesh... "
No, Because he answered the original question with one word "Tradition". | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | how many tourists do you have in nw wisconsin vs. oneida and vilas county mike? ... apple and an almond comparisson | |
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| Pointerpride102 - 9/30/2008 8:48 PM
John, that was a serious question from me, can you please point me to the science/study done on spearing. I do not want 'stories' from a DNR office. I want something written, like an actual study. Thanks.
here's your info, Mike.
but it's non-sequitur to this post, so let it lay.
North American Journal of Fisheries Management 2000; 20:239–244
Recreational Darkhouse Spearing for Northern Pike in Minnesota: Historical Changes in Effort and Harvest and Comparisons with Angling
Rodney B. Pierce
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, 1201 East Highway 2, Grand Rapids, Minnesota 55744, USA
Mark F. Cook
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, 2114 Bemidji Avenue, Bemidji, Minnesota 56601, USA
...Creel survey data since 1980 show that...spearing is selective for the larger fish. In comparison with population estimates, spearing removes a small proportion of the total population and biomass of northern pike but an increasing proportion of fish with increasing size...
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Location: The desert | Thanks, I really was looking for documentation on it....no motive to hijack the thread. Thanks. Please commence aruging about trolling. | |
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| how many tourists do you have in nw wisconsin vs. oneida and vilas county mike? ... apple and an almond comparisson
that's a fair point, Sled...
pressure, particularly from non-local anglers is higher in NE WI.
is your concern that it would mean more "moving" instead of "stationary" boats, that even more people would come to the area, or that it would make it too "easy" for those tourists to catch (and potentially keep or mishandle) fish?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | lambeau - 9/30/2008 9:30 PM
it would make it too "easy" for those tourists to catch (and potentially keep or mishandle) fish?
Yes ... seasoned musky anglers wouldn't be the concern and never have been. the number of experienced fishermen to the number of one and done fishermen is significant ... i'd prefer that it continue to be more difficult for the catch and kill or catch and drop in the bottom of the boat drive it back to the cabin to show aunt sherlie anglers to do.
remember ... lots of you guys come up for a weekend of fishing and never see the "other fishermen" that are here. it's a saturday to saturday economy in the resort and cabin rental business. they check in on saturday at noon and get settled and by the time you're headed home sunday ... they're in the bleachers for the waterski or lumberjack show ... and all week they're on the water. give them an easy button on some of the more vulnerable lakes (not like lake tom or fence but the others) and you'll increase the harvest significantly with or without 3 lines.
visiting here on weekends and living here and seeing season after season are very different views ... you can say they aren't if you want but they simply are. ask the guys at the muskyshop about what they run into on a weekly basis ... | |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Well, I am glad I dont live there or fish there. Sounds like a communist country. Ban this ,ban that. Put up walls keep people out etc. Dont invade my peacfull space. Like I said before Vilas can have its no trolling laws just leave it there.
There is no reason to bash the method of trolling as the other 90 percent of Musky fishermen from all over the country get offended as I have by your elitest remarks. Remark one Trollers are fish killers(meat hunters) . Remark two, Trollers are stupid,fat and lazy and cant catch fish any other way.
On Border waters trolling is legal on the Michigan side by michigan anglers. Case in point , Smokey Lake. This lake is stocked by the Michigan D.N.R. with northern strain Muskies from our Thornapple lake program. 90 percent of this lake is in Michigan but the boat launch is in Wisconsin. You dont like trollers dont fish there. I will troll this lake when I want ,do you get me??? I paid for the fish in it not you. It is this spill over that angers me to no end. The cry to ban and blame others makes me sick.
I spent 5 days of rainy cold nasty weather last Fall trolling one of Michigans larger northern lakes . I saw one other boat in 5 days. The man and his son were casting for smallmouth. We had been trolling the edges all morning without a rip and decided to pull up and chat with them for a few minutes. They had got a couple we had none. But the guy was pleasant asking us if we had gotten any strikes. Of course we said no but thats Musky fishing. The point is ,this man did not assault us,he did not tell us to leave him alone in fact he relished the chance to chat with a fello nutcase. We were both crazy to be out in those conditions. His son was cold but he was interested in the 12inch baits we had hanging all over the boat. There we were , a bass fisherman and a Musky fisher,several thousand acres of water to share and we had time to chat for a couple of minutes. We exchanged information,wished each other luck and Michelle gave the kid a sandwich and a cup of hot chocolate. We parted ways. You see we were not trollers in his eyes. We were a man and a woman fishing for Muskies.
I have been fishing for 45 years and in all of my life I have never heard anyone bash trolling as a method until this thread. You know, I love casting for Muskies and Pike. Its a great thrill when one comes out of no where and slams my lures. But there are days when the weather or the pain in my back and wrist say its time to troll or go home. There are days when I just want to drift along with a couple of suckers out and enjoy the fact that I am free and living where I do.And there are days when I want to tackle the biggest baddest water in the Musky range and put out the widest spread I can and take my shots at catching a world record.
You see its all good until you come along and start banning stuff. Bashing us and spouting rubbish about people you know nothing about. A fishermans ethics are his calling card,his signature, his footprint so to speak. An ethical fisherman does not troll close to someone who is casting nor does an ethical fisherman race by a troller and pull up in the trollers way cutting him off and expect the troller to go around him. An ethical fisherman only kills what he eats and limits his take so as not to over harvest any body of water. An ethical Fisherman practices what he preaches and does not condemn others but shows by example why he does the things he does.
I fished the eagle river chain once. I left thinking wow could they use a 42 inch size limit. But hey its thier state not mine. So instead I stay on my side of the line where we value the whole experience,where we let our anglers decide how to fish and where trollers and casters pass each other with a smile and a wave. I wish our state had more Musky waters. Our Muskies inc chapter 47 has accomplished tons but still we are lacking in funds to buy a airation system for our broke D.N.R. to try to bring 60,000 fall fingerlings to our lakes in 2008. I look forard to casting ,fishing live bait and TROLLING for them. Its all good. Kingfisher
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| ahh...AMEN!!!! | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "On Border waters trolling is legal on the Michigan side by michigan anglers."
From page 13 of the Michigan DNR Regulations book...What's even more disgusting than people ripping others for the type of fishing they do, is people who refuse to read their own regulations, then preach to others about how they can troll here and there....So mr kingfisher.........this is for you.
Read this page. Notice how your favorite lake, Smokey is listed in these regulations as a boarder lake between Michigan and Vilas Co.
Please, for the love of God, read the third to last bullet point on where you can troll..please, I'm begging you. There it is in black and white.
EDITED, But not by me.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 10/1/2008 12:55 PM
Attachments
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 MI-WI-boundary-waters_229790_7.pdf (48KB - 2390 downloads)
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Posts: 366
| Well I guess I got my money's worth with this question. Thanks for all the posts, not that I expect them to stop, although I at least would have expected them to slow down by now. I've read every post, and I've certainly learned alot about the issue. Maybe more than I wanted to? I guess I've come to realize that may happen when you ask questions of delicate issues. Although I didn't really see this as Roe v. Wade when I asked it, and really thought it was sort of a dead issue. I stand corrected.
I really can't make any specific comments on the issue, of a place I may never see in my lifetime. Nor debate the individual comments of great fishermen I may never meet or fish with. Actually at this point in the conversation I don't think that the issue now being discussed has much to do with trolling. In my opinion the issue has more to do with something I learned as a kid. Two wrongs don't equal a right.
Ryan | |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
In regards to the "crusaders trying to save WI' comment;
My MI club has donated a lot of money to WI chapters to initiate a tagging program to study Leech and WI fish in WI.
Maybe we'll think twice next year about sending MN money to a state where it's not welcome or appreciated.
(probably will still send it, but hopefully you get the point.)
Lambeau; You're correct, suckers over 12" are rough fish, but still cannot be transported live he same as gamefish. The reasoning is to prevent people from going from lake to lake with water in livewells in the hopes of helping curb exotics from spreading.
I'm not sure why it's o.k. to keep water in baitwells with minnows and not in livewells, but that's the way it's been explained to us.
I guess from now on we should lock threads out to people not from WI when that is the subject at hand.
It'll save us ignorant MN guys from looking stupid.
JS
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| Traditions Smradition!
I feel like their is an 800# gorilla in the room that nobody wants to recognize.
Before the great "traditions" of the no-trolling in WI, their was of course the tradition of trolling in WI. So obviously the presidents has been set to break tradition.
If the absolute best interest in the fish and fishery was truely at hand, single hooked rigs would be illegal.
I have seen countless threads on all musky boards about the rudeness of "todays fishermen" where they would jump ahead of your boat and casts, so pointing a finger then at a trolling boat saying they are less educated, ethical, rude, does not hold any merit.
Then to say trolling kills more fish is absolutely absurd.
As stated on this thread from some of the WI locals, the viewing coolers are still tradition.
OK, I'll recognize the gorilla. The problem simply in WI is the lack of education by the angler feeling it is their right to continue killing fish.
Make single hooked rigs illegal.
Increase size limits.
Advocate reproduction mounts. Break the "tradition" that replicas are of lesser stature.
To be honest, I find all of these WI fishery issues silly. One week, a 100 post thread comes out about how trolling kills fish and it should be illegal and everybody who trolls is unethical, cheating, a fish killer....then the next week, some guy thumps a nice fish and people get in line to congratulate him. When somebody questions why he killed it, all hell breaks loose that it is his "legal right", "he earned it".
Pick a lane! | |
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| i know i've mentioned this before in other similarly heated discussions, but it applies and is worth mentioning again.
there has been brain-imagery research done with interesting results. when people are presented with political information that is from a different perspective than their own, the emotion centers of their brain activate strongly and the cognition centers of their brain activate only weakly. ie., people's response to contrary political information is emotional and not rational.
you can easily infer that any issue about which people have strongly held beliefs will work in the same way...including whether or not trolling should be allowed in northeast Wisconsin.
so ask yourself, is what i'm about to say based on my emotional response to someone saying something different than me, or am i objectively looking at the situation?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'OK, I'll recognize the gorilla. The problem simply in WI is the lack of education by the angler feeling it is their right to continue killing fish.'
That's simply not true. The release rate here in Wisconsin is as good or better than anywhere else in the US, and we have more 50" limit waters than MN with less water producing numbers of 50" fish. Muskie anglers got that done here, plain and simple. If one was to use simplistic arguments without alot of basis in or consideration for data and percentages, the argument could be made there are more trophy muskies harvested in Minnesota than in Wisconsin. The statement in context to the arguments here makes little sense, those who are arguing against trolling frequently state one reason they oppose IS more fish will be killed.
'Picking a lane' isn't a Wisconsin necessity; that cuts across all of the sport.
I believe I stated there is no scientific support for the idea trolling is any greater threat to the fish than casting. I believe others stated that as well.
I don't see many bait store coolers anymore. The one I used to see that was the most spectacular was in Nisswa, MN. That one is gone now too.
It IS legal to harvest a Muskie in WI, just like MN, and everywhere else except for a couple C&R lakes. Harvest happens on ALL those waters, and the argument that is the angler's legal right is an on target bullseye. It is. Yet most of the muskies caught in WI are released.
Trolling in much of N WI is NOT legal. I don't see anyone supporting breaking the law. I see folks arguing points of view, and that's good.
Most of the time when you see a post supporting legal rights here in WI or anywhere else, it's in answer to a rude, mean spirited bash by someone who thinks ALL harvest of ANY muskie is wrong. There's great arguments about the science of it there, too. That's an argument for Winternet, fortunately.
I don't find discussing Wisconsin fishing issues silly, I find it constructive and interesting, and what has been said here to date reinforces my original statement that the reason I can't troll on Julia or Goorge or Pelican or Boom this weekend with my 99.Pro Kicker is simple...
Tradition. | |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
It's completely understandable that responses to different views is emotional as well as rational.
What isn't understandable, is why those emotions are then targeted to the individual, ie where they are from, who they are etc.
Attacking the messenger does not make your opinion right and their opinion wrong.
It just shows how disrespectful you are towards those that don't agree with you.
JS
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| It's completely understandable that responses to different views is emotional as well as rational.
What isn't understandable, is why those emotions are then targeted to the individual, ie where they are from, who they are etc.
Attacking the messenger does not make your opinion right and their opinion wrong.
It just shows how disrespectful you are towards those that don't agree with you.
exactly.
the tonic is to for everyone to think about their response before hitting "send" and make sure it's targeting the issue and not the person.
despite the fact that people seem to think we relish it, editing out "you're from somewhere else so you're an ignorant cuss" type namecalling gets old, very very old.
none of us are perfect at it; we can all commit to trying to respect the other person, even if we don't accept their point of view.
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| Steve,
You are absolutely right that I am without any scientific data. And to be perfectly honest, I do not even fish these waters.
So I guess the question is then, why is trolling illegal? I've seen the simple answer of "traditions", but like I said in my post, it was legal before, so tradition can be broken.
The answer of "tradition" seems to be alot like being a kid and having your father give you the "because I said so!" line. I'm not infering that there is a right or wrong answer (believe me, my dad was always right), but given the question, the answer continues to come back that trollers kill too many fish.
I also agree with you on the winternet items. We have approximately 61 days for that to begin. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Why do we have Tradition heavily influencing our management of the fisheries in WI? The Conservation Congress. It IS the public making policy many times, and that sword cuts both ways. Look at Tbetca's battle with many others to raise the size limit to 54" in BOGB, where according to the fisheries folks there isn't a biological reason to do so under the current management model. Then look at the outcry when herbie, me, and a few others caught some really big fish backtrolling, and a few folks thought it was an 'unfair' thing to do. No more fish were harvested trolling that shoresitting, I'd wager. That was another time and offered a different conservation ethic than in place today, so the entire argument is based on what WAS, not what IS, other than....
The idea trolling will disturb the peace and quiet on our little lakes.
A comment was made WI seems 'communistic' in it's regulations. Exactly the opposite, talking actual practice of Communism and not theoretical; the public has HUGE input here and the arguments do not even have to make scientific sense to win the day. | |
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| it's illegal because enough people want it to be illegal. whether they base their opinions on tradition or science is in some ways irrelevent. the bottom line is more people want it to be that way.
if you want it changed, start a campaign in the Conservation Congress and try to gather enough support/votes to advise the DNR to change the rule.
my guess is that changing this particular rule would get voted down quickly and overwhelmingly, especially if it were attempted on a large scale. now, similar to the 50" proposals, if it were attempted one lake at a time you might stand some chance of success.
in my home area of Colombia Co trolling is also illegal, a rarity for a southern WI county. there's one particular lake near me that (imho) could easily support trolling and being able to do so would add value for many people. i've considered proposing such a change at next spring's meeting, but first i'm attempting to garner support from the local stakeholders including the county CCC board president.
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| so it's back to being a kid and having your dad tell you because "he says so and that's why!"?
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| john skarie - 10/1/2008 9:20 AM
It's completely understandable that responses to different views is emotional as well as rational.
What isn't understandable, is why those emotions are then targeted to the individual, ie where they are from, who they are etc.
Attacking the messenger does not make your opinion right and their opinion wrong.
It just shows how disrespectful you are towards those that don't agree with you.
JS
John, you and I often disagree about things. That post, however, I agree with 100%.
That said, if everyone was to read what everyone else is really saying instead of what we think they mean, nobody is saying "trolling kills fish and trollers are lazy bad people".
I think its pretty clear that the consensus on the "shouldn't be allowed" crowd is basically this:
Opening up the lakes in Northern WI to trolling is opening the door to a POTENTIAL problem. Let's not oversimply that and try to villify it as a method. It's not the method that people have a problem with. It's putting that method in the hands of inexperienced people who otherwise would not fish for muskies,or those who would likely keep and or unintentionally kill muskies trolling because they don't know about catch and release. I'm not attacking trollers at all with that statement. I've done it, and it's kind of nice to be able to sit down and cover lots of water.
But in the hands of certain people (which Sled described VERY well), in a place with low size limits, on small lakes, that recieve no stocking, where you are allowed 3 lines per person?
And saying "trolling doesn't kill any more fish"... On a fish to fish basis, that's true. But what are your odds of catching fish running 6 lines trolling a steep break vs two guys each casting a single lure? The guys who understand trolling know what I mean when I say on certain lakes it could be a goldmine.
Which would be great if everyone knew what they were doing, understood the importance of releasing fish quickly and safely, and chose to do so.
So let me throw this out there, and lets hear from the guys like Sloan, Sled, et al who know this area well, and see what goes on day in and day out during the season:
What would it take to tip the scale in favor of trolling for you? Certain lakes only? Increased size limits? More stocking? Limitations to the number of lines?
And does anyone really think allowing trolling with the way the other regulations are currently structured has no potential for harm? | |
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Location: Contrarian Island | 150 replies that will change nothing or anyones opinion...sorry this thread is a waste of time...the law is never going to change. would I like it if the law was maybe changed? well at what cost? I like having a sucker down and casting. no way i want a 1 line per person. Are there lakes I wouldn't want trolling allowed, yes, but there are a few I'd be the first in line at the boat launch if it ever changed. Just don't EVER see it happening in my lifetime....but hey if you guys are having fun keep at it...me, i'm going fishing. maybe i'll even troll today.
and Sled spends 10x more time on the golf course than the water up there..what does he know... ; )
Edited by MSKY HNR 10/1/2008 10:29 AM
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "nobody is saying "trolling kills fish and trollers are lazy bad people".
EA read back through this ENTIRE thread, and that is EXACTLY what some have said(ok maybe not the "bad people" part but definitely the lazy fish killing part). Whatever your opinion is that much is INDISPUTABLE. | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "sorry this thread is a waste of time...the law is never going to change."
Ding Ding Ding.....we have a winner.
I RESPECTFULLY say that people's opinions from other states have zero effect on what the WDNR is going to do. On the same note, either does Wisconsin residents opinions.
If memory serves, trolling has passed the CC vote up in Vilas on one or more occasions, but those votes didn't matter either. Steve, you remember this at all?
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| Gander Mt Guide - 10/1/2008 10:38 AM
"sorry this thread is a waste of time...the law is never going to change."
Ding Ding Ding.....we have a winner.
I RESPECTFULLY say that people's opinions from other states have zero effect on what the WDNR is going to do. On the same note, either does Wisconsin residents opinions.
If memory serves, trolling has passed the CC vote up in Vilas on one or more occasions, but those votes didn't matter either. Steve, you remember this at all?
It will depend on how the economy goes...if Vilas county needs the money...I would bet this could change pretty quick. | |
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| esox1, if "tradition is what it's all about", then I expect that everyone in your club stands in shallow water trying to spear fish with sharpened sticks. Surely you don't use boats, rods, reels, etc, right? 'Cause if you do anything beyond wooden spears, well, you would be little more than self-rightous hypocrits who personify "tradition" as tactics that are convenient to you at the moment.
Zing!
Edited by Ranger 10/1/2008 4:23 PM
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| I know this is off the beaten path that this thread has taken but if we look at the legal trolling lakes in NW WI such as Grindstone, Cout Orielles, Round they are all pretty much big acreage lakes. Im all for opening up trolling on the larger bodies of water in Vilas and Oneida such as Tomahawk, Trout, North Twin, Lac Du Flambeau but then protect these lakes with the 50 inch size limit as they have done in the NW lakes. I think this is alot more legitimate then trying to allow trolling on a 200 acre lake that doesnt have the room for both.
My two cents.
Mr Musky | |
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