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| This ? was prompted from the PMTT thread. It isn't actualy illegal to hold sub legal fish for pics in Canada, is it? or net them? |
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Posts: 431
| If it isn't legal to net them, then I shouldn't net a single fish on LOTW. Ha. Releasing an upper 40s fish with no net would suck. It's probably better for the fishes health for me to net the fish to release anyway.
Edited by momuskies 9/16/2008 9:19 PM
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Location: Warroad, Mn | The limit on many trophy Ontario lakes is 54", and there are many photo's of sub-legal fish taken on these waters. I suspect that the Ontario MNR seems to think that's O.K. as it adds much to the tourist attraction of these waters. I'm pretty sure that most resorts in the area with a 54" size limit would not be very happy if no one could take pictures of sub-legal fish. Doug Johnson |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | When I was going up for the walleye opener in Ontario and my partner would accidentally catch a muskie, he would want a picture. For those who don't know muskies are out of season at that time. When I caught one, he asked if I wanted a picture? I told him heII no, I don't want to have the warden confiscate my camera and have a picture of a out of season muskie on it and get fined. From that time on, neither of us would photograph a muskie out of season.
Edited by muskie! nut 9/16/2008 9:33 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Short answer is no if one goes by NW Ontario regs. I read the regs this year, and there's nothing in there about this issue at all. I think lambeau hit it, this may be harrassment because of opposition to/anger with the PMTT event by local Ministry officials, directly opposed to the HUGE welcome the PWT Can Am received in Dryden. Whatever happened up there, it's odd, very odd. |
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| no one would bother you if it was done in a fast manner. as for mnr harrassment. they are direcyed from calls. the pmtt deal involved many un answered factors. due to calls from area musky groups, the dnr and mnr became involved.. many dont know or have forgotten. green bay was the receipient of muskies from l.s.c . .. the pmtt format was the problem. |
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| Hi
I saw the banter on the PMTT thread,just so you Know,when I was president of MCI we had a meeting with Gary Martin head CO for all of Ontario
Its very clear,its illegal to restrain a sub legal fish with gain intent involved
basically any sub legal fish must be released in any event or tourney
an officer can issue a violation to the common angler whom appears to handle sub legal fish also for picture taking
There is no way Ontario will issue a permit for restraining a sub legal fish for anyone
all fish caught during closed season must be water relased |
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Location: Land of the Musky | "water released"? So if you don't really know what your doing and putting a fish in a net would help release the fish.......I guess they would rather you put the pliers on the lure and shake until the fish is off the hooks??? And a picture takes about 10-15 seconds…. I am just confused as to why a relaxing sport such as fishing has so many ways for honest guys to get fined or worse, boats taken. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Water release means you don't take the fish into the boat.
If the PMTT would have done their homework they would have known what they could and couldn't do ahead of time.
Now everyone wants to make Canada out to be the bad guy.
We've had the Chapter Challunge in Canada many times. Never had a problem with guys measuring and taking photos. Had wardens talk to us and even come visit our headquarters on LOW. Maybe it helps that we donate all the money to the MNR from the entry fees.
At any rate, it shouldn't have been a surprise that the judge boat format wouldn't fly in Canada.
JS
Edited by john skarie 9/17/2008 7:33 AM
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| Marc Thorpe says it is in fact illegal to take pictures of sub legal fish. If that really is the case I may have to just start cutting the line when I catch a Canadian fish under 54". I am sure that would make them happy. I mean I wouldn't be handling it. |
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Posts: 431
| I think the "water release" was pushed through by the Canadian gov't. to subsidize the local clinics around "touristy" bodies of water. I mean, you can guarantee a few extra trips to the local clinics/ers if you make everybody try to unhook a sub-legal fish over the side of the boat. Heck, you might even get the coroner involved when a guy fishing by himself falls over the side in October/November. I will continue to net fish until told otherwise. |
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Posts: 238
| I live in canada and deal with wardens all the time,handle your fish with care take a pic and let it go,its no big deal and no one is going to get fined or lose anything.
The wardens fully understand that CPR is an integral part of our beloved sport!
Now if you mishandle a sub legal fish and dont treat it with the respect it deserves in front of a warden then you deserve everything thats coming to ya,be smart about your actions and everybody stays happy.
Guest-cutting your line would be a bone head move,i think everyone here will agree!
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
In MN you could also technically be fined for photos of a sub-legal.
Regs say sub-legals or out of season fish must be immediately released.
It's pretty clear to me that the conflicts arose because of the judge boats.
Or because of the fact that sub-legals were being counted for points in the tournament.
Any way you look at it, placing all the blame for this incident on Canada is B.S.
JS |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | What you need to note in Marc's post is that he says "its illegal to restrain a sub legal fish with gain intent involved". This has nothing to do with netting and taking a quick photo, this is tournament specific. For the recreational anger the health of you and the fish is important, a netted and quickly handled fish is not going to get you a ticket. If you have netted and brought the fish into the boat for unhooking all bets are off, to a CO watching you with binoculars that is going to look like harvest. If you net and retain the fish for more time than would be considered "reasonable" then it would be up to the CO's discretion. This isn't Canada coming down on anyone, I'll bet if you talked to CO's in the states the same rules apply.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | During the PWT Can/AM Tournament in Dryden, I promise you there were dozens of walleyes netted, measured on a bump board, and released because they were:
1) Just short
2) Not as large an 'over slot' as the angler thought would win the event or add enough to his/her weight total
I'd bet many were even weighed, measured, and released; there was definite 'gain' intent involved, and there was absolutely NO problem or rumor of a problem with local MNR folks who were there in force and very supportive of an event that showcased the great fishing on Dryden's Lake Wabigoon. Of course, 25 of the teams in the event were Canadian, but that shouldn't make any difference.
By the way, the Canadian pros handed the US a sound defeat, upsetting the best of the best from the PWT and FLW.
This reminds me a little of the P match between MN and Ontario on Rainy, especially with the Day Pass and Houseboat fishing regs. I quit fishing there because of all the confusion.
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Posts: 431
| Regarding the health care comment-it was made in jest. I was also assuming that the Canadian healthcare system was "free" to Canadians-i.e. those persons paying for the system get to use the "free" system-or some sort of convoluted logic. If it's free to all within the borders, I guess instead of taping my finger back together a couple of weeks ago, I should have gone to the nearest clinic and had a professional put it back together.
So what happens when I'm taking a picture of an upper 40s fish and I fumble the fish? It's now in the boat, but I have no intent to possess the fish or prevent an immediate relase.
This is a very interesting issue. I didn't read the regs at all this year because I wasn't planning on keeping a single fish. A similar issue came up a few years ago. During the catch and release only trout season in Missouri, the law said all fish had to be released immediately, and I believe it also said you could not remove the fish from the water. All of the law types I talked to said you could take quick pictures, they just didn't want to see any fish on the bank or leaving the stream. |
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| Doug,
I think your post hit it on the head. Contraversy can be started about any topic. I think that muskie fishermen on the whole are awesome guys and conservationists. I believe this is the reason the MNR & CO's don't bother us if we "catch and release" a sub-legal. At least I haven't run into that issue.
Worrall,
I agree on your sentiments about the tourney. AND, Yep...you are correct. If it was literal, I think there is some grey area, but ultimately we would be breaking the law to hold a fish for a picture. Will they hold us to it? I don't think so, but then again, I'm not the CO.
Will,
As always, you bring it to us "straight from the horses mouth." As Marc pointed out, and he highlighted, "gain intent" is morally and ethically wrong...as well as illegal. You SHOULD get in trouble.
All of you do such an awesome job of discussing our issues on this board. I am amazed at all the good which comes from the banter and discussions each and every day.
Humbly,
Donnie  |
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| I think back in 06 their was a guy holding a SUB-LEGAL (muskie) fish on MI cover of their rules an regulations book. Must not be to big of deal. |
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Posts: 100
Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | I think a few of you will agree, border waters seem to be where more trouble arises. I remember when you couldn't bring any walleyes back from Ontario, save a "trophy". It was that way for a few seasons. That was about 10yrs ago. All started over LOTW and Rainy issues. Maybe it's too difficult, but couldn't there be the SAME laws regardless of residency or nationality for border waters??? I don't know, just seems one set of rules for one body of water makes sense. Even state-to-state waters don't have this. Doubt it ever happens though.
Later
Dan |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Bob - 9/17/2008 11:57 AM I think back in 06 their was a guy holding a SUB-LEGAL (muskie) fish on MI cover of their rules an regulations book. Must not be to big of deal.
'05... HAHAHAHAHA - how did the finger get pointed at me? FYI, Bob... that would fall into the immediate release category. Netted and unhooked in the water, then lifted for a couple photos and released. Oh.. and that photo was shot by the MI-DNR photographer. Bob - if you have more to say to me please send me a PM or e-mail.
Seems to me the point of this whole thread was to clarify if it's OK for someone to net, unhook, take a quick photo then release a fish of any size. That would be acceptable according to all CO's I've talked with. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Will, if your picture was on the cover of the MI regs, and the fish was sub-legal, I'd agree with Bob, it must be OK to do that. I'd take it a step further and say it's pretty cool to make the cover, and even better that a state chose to use a Muskie CPR shot.
So the issue is measuring the fish? How did the Wabigoon Can/Am event happen with no issues if that's the case? I would guess the issue is measuring the fish in the boat, which happened alot at the Can/Am. If a bump board is used in the water at boatside, is that an issue? I want to be legal when Muskie fishing up there. Another interesting issue is the Conservation License. If indeed this applies, and I can't measure a legal fish if I have a Conservation License, that ends me buying one in the future and undoubtedly the same applies to others who may not be as willing to release a 54.5" fish as some of us when in possession of a Harvest license...not the best move for the concept, IMHO. |
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| so can somebody please explain to me why netting, unhooking and photographing a undersized fish is ok, but netting an undersized fish in a tournament is not???
It pretty much seems to me that the canada co's were being a little harsh and that with the several people causing problems and calling the canadian co's and making sure they were out there, and making sure that "no rules" were broken is the real issue.
I wouldn't stand behind the canadian co's if they were being rude, harsh, etc...don't stick up for them...they were wrong.
If it's ok for avg. joe to net a undersized fish, but not ok for a tournament guy to...well then I would have just told he CO that I quit the tourney and was just pleasure fishing.....
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Weren't the contestants instructed to wait for a judge boat before releasing the fish?
That seems to be the problem here, just as in MN, you can't keep a sub-legal fish in possesion until another boat comes to verify it.
Isn't that the difference here between "avg-Joe" and the tournament format the the PMTT used?
If the Canadians know that you can't do that, than shouldn't the PMTT have known?
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No, John, they were not. They were instructed to immediately CPR the fish, then confirm the fish by the image with a judge. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I wan't aware of the thread on Musky Hunter until Lambeau posted Tim Widlacki's response. Very interesting read and it sounds like the OMNR took things a little too far. It sounds to me that what happened in the PMTT is not the "normal" interpretation concerning the rule of immediate release and the conservation license. I'm sure the last thing the Canadian government wants to do is limit tourism. |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
O.K. That explains things a little better. I was under the impression from other posts that on the 1st day they did use judge boats, and then changed it after confrontations with CO's.
JS |
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| . i cannot see the issue at hand being stretched beyond sanity. the warden were instructing the law. most visitors had conservation licenses. that eliminates boatside possesion period. on top of the minimum size. no-one had a vendetta. yes theres groups that had concerns. 34 inch fish are babies. ignorance of the law compounded with sending wardens in a 7 inch downpour, would definately steam them. if momc, mci,,m.i, and concerned anglers were concerned enough to send thoughts to the dnr and mnr, is that not enuff.
get rid of the sour grapes, its done.
next time maybe the tournie folks will listen to people. |
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Posts: 240
| Our club had a meeting with the MNR and I have talked to the MNR head office about this. Its been awhile so I can't remember who. Its very strange. Head office tells me that pictures and quick release is fine. Yet at our meeting, the MNR officer was unclear of the issue but thought it might be illegal. One thing was clear about possession of any species of fish. Once you put it in your live-well, or stringer, you are in possession of that fish. So don't do it even for revival purposes.
The day that you can't take a picture of a nice sub legal Muskie, then that's the day I quit fishing them. As for out of season fish that are accidentally caught, they must be unhooked and released in the water. |
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| We were the team that had a fish in the net when we called for a judge boat. A boat came up on us and asked what we had in the net. We told him that we had a musky between 36 an 38 inches. He informed us that we would have to release the fish at that time. I replied that we were going to release the fish that we were waiting on a judge boat to measure and photograph. He informed us that we were in violation of Ontario laws because the fish was undersized. With the possibility of a ticket we released the fish. They at no time harrassed us but were very professional. After the release he asked for our licenses. We were informed that my partners conservation license does not allow any size musky to be held in the net at all and would not matter if it were 60 in. that license does not allow any musky period. The full sportsmans will allow the musky to be held in the net and wait for a judge boat if it is over 44 in. If we hold the fish in the net and wait and are watched and the fish turns out to be under 44 in. then we were in violation of the law. That fish would have allowed my partner and myself a place in the tournament, a plaque and a small check. I talked to Tim myself and have no hard feelings on this. I have been involved in trying to put a tournament on and it is a lot of work. The easy part is to just show up and fish heck anybody can complain. Tim my hat is off to you and all that help you put on a first class tournament. There are always going to be some bumps. Heck Houston didn't like playing Chicago in Milwaukee but they still were given a chance to hit the ball and they failed. We all still had a chance to catch fish and a lot of us failed. Thats Musky fishing. Doug Dible PMTT Pro |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What 'sour grapes'? The issues and questions at hand in THIS thread are questions about what is acceptable during an OBVIOUS CPR EFFORT, what is legal, so no one gets a ticket. As in IF it's OK to take a picture and release the fish or is it not? Is it legal to use a net to release the fish...it seems the CO's said it was not, something I find difficult to fathom if the fish is 53.5 inches on the Goon or LOTW or 43.5 on the water in question. It seems there is, at the least, some confusion as to what exactly IS legal.
I have not heard of any problems netting sub legals from that water in the past; Guides and Charters do it all the time, right? How in heck would you release a Muskie from a 26' Grady at boatside without a net? Do the Captians take the fish onboard to unhook it?
Seems the above post helps clear some of this up. As Paul Harvey would say..
It seems Tim's account of what happened between the officers and the anglers and the angler's account are very different, unless there were more incidents.
If it's indeed illegal to take a quick 'hold' photo of a sub-legal fish in Ontario, there's about a hundred thousand 'criminals' out there in the world of Muskie. |
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| if i can be so bold as to get away from any finger-pointing and trying to figure out who was to blame, or who's trying to spin what happened to make it look like they're the good guys and the other side's the bad guys...
irregardless of the legalities of measuring and photographing fish, the situation was a bad one. here are the bottom lines:
- will the PMTT or a different major trail hold a muskie tournament here again?
i doubt it.
- will the PMTT or a different major trail hold a muskie event on any US/Canadian border waters in the near future?
i doubt it.
- will some people choose to stay away from these waters even for non-tournament fishing out of fear of being ticketed during the CPR process?
probably.
- some people may see this as a successful effort to chase off tournaments from their home waters, but due to a combination of poor planning and/or overzealous enforcement...who's really going to lose because of this?
local businesses, on both sides of the border.
- who can put the most effective pressure on law enforcement around this issue?
local businesses, on both sides of the border...
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
So they did use judge boats in Canada the 1st day according to the angler who was approached by MNR wardens.
If that's the case, than the PMTT shouldn't be trying to make this out to be
that Canada was unreasonable in it's actions.
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I still want to know if it's OK to measure, photo, and release my next 53.9999" fish in Canada.
John, agreed.
lambeau, I don't think it's an issue of 'scaring off' anyone as it sounds like the MNR folks were quite reasonable, it's an issue of what needs to be done to be legal. Lots of conjecture, seems like, and little hard fact. If we can't find out what is the norm up there, then your third statement will apply to me. Darn it, I was planning on heading up to the Soo this fall for a weekend Muskie trip, too.
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| lambeau, I don't think it's an issue of 'scaring off' anyone as it sounds like the MNR folks were quite reasonable, it's an issue of what needs to be done to be legal.
there is a LOT of discretion in law enforcement.
it can be done very strictly as written or more subjectively to achieve the intent of protecting fish/ensuring successful release.
aggressive/strict enforcement, even if done politely, scares people off and can be used as a tool to accomplish that goal. if someone doesn't want tournaments around, hassling them (even politely) with rigorous enforcement of vaguely worded laws is a good way to achieve that goal.
and it begs the question, why do you suppose the officers were out in force aggressively (but politely) enforcing the laws with participants in this event?
it's the same as sucker fishing in nothern WI every fall...vague definitions of the law open to interpretation by the warden. someone calls to complain about the "trolling" going on and they make sure they know which wardens are going to respond to their call...
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | From what I can tell, this issue was not unlike your last example.
I still want to know what the actual, reality based enforcement is. What is acceptable? I'm putting in a call to the Ontraio MNR to get a ruling. |
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Location: The desert | Out of season I dont believe you can take a picture of the fish in your boat, it must be released out of the net. You could get a release shot, but I dont believe you can bring the fish into your boat. In season I believe it is legal to measure and get a quick photo and release it.
Thats not really unreasonable to me. Somewhere, the exact location escapes me, you cannot do anything with an un-tagged Steelhead besides remove the hook and get it out of the net. |
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| Absolutley LEGAL, to net, unhook measur and take a picture of a sublegal.
The problem was, in the format of the tourny, the anglers had to hold on to the fish until a judge boat arrives, which could take how long????
The fact they had to wait several minutes(how many???) until a judge boat came, meant that they are now in POSSESION of a fish and not releasing it in a timely manner. Pretty cut and dry actually.
As part of MCI, we are asked to take measurments and recordings of ALL fish we catch and forward this info to the MNR, to help them establish rules and regulations for specific bodies of water. We are not fined for doing this. |
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Location: Rhinelander. | I mentioned this awhile back, why does anyone want to take pictures of barely legal fish? Sure if its your 1st or 2nd,or if there is a special meaning to the catch I understand. What I don't understand is why guys feel the need to take a picture of every fish they catch. Some of these same guys complain about the way fish are handled in a tournament. Yet they handle every fish for a picture. This just does not make sense to me.
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| We got home and made a call to canada to clear the netting thing up. We were told that the Conservation license was the problem. With that license you are allowed no musky period. You may net the fish to remove the hooks but it must be released at that time. To bring it into the boat to measure it would be against the law because you are allowed 0 muskies with conservation license. With a sportsmans license I can net and bring the fish into the boat for a measurement to see if it is legal. If it is undersize it must be released at that time to keep it for pictures would be to take control of a sub legal fish. To hold it and wait for a judge would be in violation and I am not allowed to take a picture of the sub fish. With the conservation license it would ot matter if the fish was 60in. because you are not allowed to measure it.The book says you may fish for musky but you may not take control of one. |
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| To all,as Will mentioned "Gain Intent" either a conservation license or reg license a sub legal fish penned in a net waiting for a judge boat is considered possession
The Con license may have been an issue also
a quick photo and immediate release is at the discretion of the CO,if he views excessive handling you could be charged,In most cases they overlook it.There is no gain intent involved,again its at the discretion of the officers witnessing the situation
Steve W,if the walleye tourney did such weigh fish after verifying slot and fish were under slot size,They exposed themselves to fish and game violations,the CO simply overlooked it
Its Ironic,because its not your way its wrong,respect thy neighbor and their ways,there wont be a problem
TKS John S,Will and Woodie for seeing things as they are
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| Call me a rebel and a law breaker but I still envision myself buying a conservsation license and measuring and taking photos of sub-legal Canadian fish. Will the rest of you now be buying a regular license? |
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| "fish for muskies but not take control of one" Please tell me how to safely release a muskie without taking control of it! Dumbest thing I have ever heard of. |
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Location: Rhinelander. | guest I agree. once you have them in the net thats pretty muc being in control of them. Maybe control is a bad choice of words.
Pfeiff |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I think control refers to measuring and pictures as stated in an earlier post.
Unhooking in the net and immediately releasing in water is the "legal" procedure when you have a conservation liscense.
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | marc,
'Steve W,if the walleye tourney did such weigh fish after verifying slot and fish were under slot size,They exposed themselves to fish and game violations,the CO simply overlooked it'
The Pros were measuring walleyes on the water during the event using a bump board to see IF fish were undersize at the Can/AM, and weighing over-slots and making a decision as to whether they would keep the walleye or not. That was exactly my point.
They all had seasonal licenses, though. Since I posted that comment it's become clear the problem was contestants with Conservation Licences holding fish and contestants intending to hold Sub Legals with ANY license waiting for a judge boat, accelerating the issue with the perceived intent of the PMTT to send the field out 'targeting' sub legal fish.
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| After all the discussion and clarification I can see a big difference between catching an undersized muskie, photo and release for your personal satisfaction. And holding a tounament and using undersize fish for the purpose monetary gain. Apparantly Canada doesnt want their muskie resource being used so someone can win money. I understand the purpose of the canadian regs and would say if you have a muskie tourney in canada you better not be taking photos of undersize fish and you need a reg license. You may not agree with the law but you should follow it. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | yup ... i caught a 50-something sub-legal musky in canada and didn't take the picture ... d'ooooohhhhhhh ... flop, splash, crap!!! |
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| I had a conversation with Mark Robins of Ontario Ministry of Natural resources on the subject of taking a picture of Sub legal Muskies. As it is written in the Books, you can not take pictures of Sub legal fish as you would be deemed in possession of that fish. Having said that, Mark points out that there probably has not been anyone charged with taking a picture of a sub-legal muskie. They have given their Officers some discretion on the matter. Their primary concern is the safe handling and release of the Muskie. This is very hard to legislate in the rules as that would create huge gray areas. They have this rule as a tool to use on anglers that are not safely handling and releasing a muskie in a timely matter.
So from what I was told, if you are handling a muskie and taking a picture in a fast and timely matter that facilitates the safe release of the fish, you will not be bothered and ticketed by an Ontario MNR officer. If everyone does there job and has the fish out of the water for no more then 30 seconds for quick picture, all is good.
Regards
Cory Toker
Edited by Cory Toker 9/19/2008 5:09 PM
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Location: Rhinelander. | Do you think him saying that would stand up in court if another warden issued the ticket? I would not chance it. I also think that on lakes where your allowed to keep fish it could lead to more kept fish?
Pfeiff |
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| Not sure what you mean about other lakes and kept fish? What he said was that having the regulations the way it is gives them a tool to use if they have to. He also said no one to his knowledge has ever been charged in possession of a sub legal fish while taking a picture and releasing the fish. It is there as a tool for when someone badly mishandles a fish and keeps it out of water and in the boat for to long.
Cory
P.S check your pm |
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