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Posts: 27
Location: Calgary, Alberta | So I've been building crankbaits for about two seasons now & as you all have experienced there is a lot to learn. I have almost exclusively been using Devcon & Envirotex since the general concensus of most builders is to use these products. My issues with both of these products is compression strength & temprature tolerance.
First Devcon 2-ton 2 part epoxy: Most of the cranks I built (the ones that actually catch fish that is) done with 2ton have small circular cracks radiating out from each of the teeth punctures which have come from big pike, much like a miniature version of rock chips in a windshield. I can tell you that I used two coats on these lures which are mostly flat sided cranks made of cedar or fir. Is it a matter of puting 3 or 4 coats on instead? if so that would make for a pretty heavy lure! Or maybe my problem is my wood is too soft?(Yes I know I just set myself up 
Next, Envirotex Lite 2part epoxy: The lures I coated with this product ended up with an almost perfect glass like finish but are about as durable as styrofoam! These lures are balsa & some cedar with 3 coats. Again maybe # of coats & wood density are my problems? Also the most annoying problem I have with Envirotex is that when my lures are sitting in my boat (even in the tackle boxes) on very hot days (32+ deg. C, 90 deg. F I think) the coating practically turns to rubber, I can dent & mark them with my fingernail! is that normal?
These issues mostly bother me because my lures are actually starting to catch some fish & my buddies say they look better than store bought & would like to buy some but I couldn't in good conscience ask anyone to pay good money for lures with these shortcomings  Do you guys that produce lures for sale experience these problems or do you use a completely different product to end up with a highly durable, low maintenance lure? |
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Posts: 226
Location: W. PA. | I use etex and I can say you won't scratch or dent my lures with a fingernail, and what I have left is several years old. etex goes on pretty thin so I usually put on 5 coats. I seal with sanding sealer, then a coat of etex to smooth everything out, then prime, paint and 4 top coats of etex.
The thing with any epoxy is that it has to be measured exactly, that would be my guess as to why yours is not hardening completely. I bought a stack of a few hundred plastic shot glasses at a party store for $4. I use one for a measuring device, I have marked it with graduation marks corresponding to how many lures that much will do (about a 1/4" in the bottom of each glass does 4 or 5 lures) I fill it up with water to the mark then pour that water into a new glass and mark it, then dump the water into another glass and mark it. Now I have 2 disposable plastic cups with the same marks to measure my etex.
If I only do that many lures I can just dump one cup into the other and still have room to mix it, with a larger batch you need to dump both cups into a larger container. Use a popsicle stick to scrape the bottom and sides really well to make sure you have it all. I mix it for at least 2 or 3 minutes to be sure it's mixed thoroughly. I have never had an issue with my topcoats using this method. |
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Posts: 479
Location: Eden Prairie & Pine Island | I feel your pain, Pikester. I've been on a quest to find the best sealer/topcoat for wooden lures. ETex is still the best I have found, but it has limitations. I do my measuring with medicine cups that are cheap and disposable. Maybe we need to approach this differently though. I am experimenting with sealling the wood and hardening the wood with different products, then painting with only a light sealer over the paint to slow down scratch off of paint jobs. A little scratch off of the paint, hook rash, etc. is one thing, but when larger areas of the paint job come off, that is unacceptable. Anyone else come across any products or methodologies that are working? 5 coats of Enviro seems like it will really mess with the bouyance and action of the lures, not to mention the amount of additional time invovled, but good for you Jerkin if its working. |
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I've been playing with a Systems 3 epoxy that I used to build my row troller and have been pretty happy. It cures hard in a day and goes on thin so it doesn't add a lot of weight. I have just started fishing the baits with this epoxy but so far so good.
Shane |
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Posts: 226
Location: W. PA. | I really don't think 4 or 5 coats of etex is any thicker or heavier than 2 coats of devcon but I couldn't say for sure as I only used devcon for refinishing old lures in the past and never weighed it. Etex goes on pretty thin, I don't notice any difference in the action of my lures from 3 coats to 5 coats but maybe someone with a better eye would. If I were building smaller bass or walleye lures I might rethink it but I don't see a problem with musky lures.
The time factor is something to consider but I don't do production, I only make baits for myself and friends so it's a non-issue. I normally only do 4 at a time so it only takes about 20 minutes or so to mix a batch, coat the lures, and remove the air bubbles while they are on the wheel then I'm on to something else, usually the honey-do list, lol.
If anyone has information on the weight difference on identical lures between a coat of etex and a coat of devcon that would be an interesting read. |
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Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | I've used the SystemThree MirrorCoat and Etex lite, and they're both comparable in my opinion. The SystemThree goes on thinner and seems a bit smoother and more clear, but not much. As to the durability, not sure the clear coat you desire is out there. If it was we'd all be using it. I have heard of quite a few guys using an automotive clearcoat, but it's expensive and time consuming. Not to mention the additional cleanup involved. You could try finding a bait that you think has a great clearcoat and try to find out what that manufacturer uses, if they'll talk. I've never found a bait that has a clearcoat that is super durable. I do like the type used on the big Slammers and the Weagle/Wabulls, but they all end up needing to be recoated once in a while.
The type of wood definitely plays a role in the clearcoat's durability. Soft baits crush and the clearcoat will crack if it's too hard. Sometimes a softer clear isn't such a bad thing. You could try some type of wood hardener on some of your lighter woods to see if it is effective without adding to much weight. Maple works nice for glide baits, and doesn't crush much, but good luck making a shallow running crank with it.
Let us know if you find a good compromise. |
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | Use system 3 silvertip not the mirror coat, best stuff I have found. Seal the wood with the same stuff only thinned so it soaks in. |
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Posts: 27
Location: Calgary, Alberta | Thanks for all the responses folks! Sounds like my issues are likely the cause of too few coats of clear as well as the absence of a "wood hardener" whatever that may be? As for my Etex not fully curing due to incorrectly measured amounts of epoxy this is not likely because I too use the graduated medicine cups. If I was to inadvertently screw up the quantities somehow I suppose that doing 4 or 5 coats of Etex would probably make that a non-issue though. What about using a combination of 2ton/Etex to sort of get the best of both worlds; 1 coat of Devcon over the paint followed by 3 coats of Etex for example?
By the way, this System three stuff some of you guys are mentioning sounds familiar. I once tried a product that came in a can with a blue & white label with black lettering which required a couple drops of crosslinker, maybe the same stuff? If it is my results were disasterous. It looked good when it went on but by the time it dried, it had crackled & peeled the Createx paint right down to the primer  what coating stayed on the paint was darned hard though so maybe I just needed to clear the Createx with Krylon or something THEN do my coating. |
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | Pikester,
Another thing I invested in was a dehumidifier. I clear coat my lures in my basement and found that I wasn't getting a good cure (advice from this board). Now I run a dehumidifer while my lures are curing and it's made a huge difference.
Shane |
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Posts: 137
| Part of the problem with the etex you are having is definitely the type of wood you are using. I don't care what kind of coating you put over balsa, the wood is so soft that if a muskie hits it, it will leave a mark as the wood is practically a sponge that has no resistance beneath the paint and coating. If the lures you are making need to be that light and buoyant to get the action that you are looking for, then that will just have to be a sacrifice you live with. I throw a lot of SS Shads, and I love them because no other lure will work the same without the balsa buoyance. But I know that it takes only one good hit to tear the bait to heck. But a bait that works is worth it, in my books. But if you can make the lure using a harder wood, then that can be a solution. I also use etex and have very little problem with it, but I am careful to make sure that I mix out the two parts in equal proportions. |
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | Pikester - Not the same stuff. They have some stuff called clear coat that is thinner so it soaks into the wood that takes a little longer to set for sealing. http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp |
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Posts: 27
Location: Calgary, Alberta | Thanks for the link Roger, the stuff I mentioned was the WR-LPU two part polyurethane gloss. I picked that product because the guy at my local marine supply shop steered me that way after trying to explain to him what I was after. The low VOC output, easy clean-up, & UV resistance sounded right up my alley but broke the cardinal rule of lure finishing: TEST IT FIRST!
I don't think he had any of the product you speak of at the time anyway but both the Mirror Coat & the Clear Coat sound good. As far as the Silvertip product you mention, are you referring to the Laminating Resin? |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | A clearcoat is only going to be as good as what is underneath it. Balsa is a very soft wood and I don't know if there is any coating out there that will protect it from damage. Change wood, try poplar or if you like cedar that is fine too. Seal the wood with polycrylic or sanding sealer than coat with 2 or 3 coats of etex and your lure will be plenty tough enough.
One other thing, if your etex isn't rock hard in a day then it was mixed improperly.
RM |
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Posts: 1529
| the beginning is a good sanding sealer. it will hekp retain paint adherence when toothy puts holes in it. |
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Posts: 212
| Pikester did you get my pm? |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "There are 5 products in the SilverTip Marine Epoxy Series:
SilverTip Laminating Resin
SilverTip EZ-Fillet
SilverTip GelMagic
SilverTip QuikFair
and SilverTip MetlWeld."
Which one of the Silver Tip line are you using? |
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| What would be a good sanding sealer?
Mike |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | The Toad says it all. Lighter woods like Balsa and Cedar are more bouyant but soft. Teeth happen,thats musky fishing. Hell they even rip up plastic baits and tear tape jobs off of Grandmas go figure. I have been using enviro tec lite for 12 years. If you measure it right you have only done half of the process correctly. Envirotec requires complete mixing. If you think you have mixed it long enough then mix it some more. Another problem is not getting the sides and bottom of the cup during mixing. I use a round dowel 3/16 inch diameter stirring stick. The round edges allow me to srcape the sides completely mixing them into the middle and the bottom is flat so it allows me to get all of the unmixed epoxy off of the bottom as well. I had some problems in the past with top coats that never got completely hard. I called envirotec and was told to mix it better. That solved all of my problems with this product. I have tried some of the others and found several to work as well. They sell two part epoxies at Menards, Lowes and Home Depot. All three claim to be equal to 50 /60 coats of varnish. The toughest stuff is used on boats (fiberglass boats) West marine has a real good two part marine epoxy but the stuff is expensive and only availble at west Marine in my area.
Adding multiple coats to lures adds weight but very little. I measured 1/10th of an ounce per coat on a weagle using a postage scale. Here are two more important things to know. I got these bits of information from Bill Crane. If you want real thick top coats you need to cool the envirotec down and keep the drying room below 60 degrees . If you want to thin it out heat the room to about 85/90 degrees and mix the etec at room temperature. Bill refrigerates his mixed epoxy and coats thousands of baits with the same mix. His tumbler gives his baits a tail heavy set though. Could be its too fast but he gets real thick top coats on a lot of his baits. When using balsa or Cedar I recomend cooling the mix and keeping the drying room at 60/65 degrees. Someone else mentioned a dehumidifier,good idea but an air conditioner will do that as well. Heat will cause the mix to set much faster and also cause bubbles from gases escaping from the warm wood.
When adding multiple coats to big baits I wet sand inbetween to insure good adhesion of the added coats. It also really brings out the depth of the paint. That was an old Wishmaster trick. Rolf put many layers of wet sanded etec on his baits. They were and still are the toughest wood baits ever built. He used a torch to flash the finishes instead of tumbling. This method thins out the coats but causes the epoxy to set must faster. Rolf would use as many as 20 coats to get the desired thickness to withstand about anything. I am going to start doing this on my new Titanium lipped Deepthreats. They have 6 coats of etec which I currently tumble cold. I am thinking of bumping that up to 16 coats torched. The thickness is pretty close but the torched ones are much harder coats. It makes sense as thinner harder coats are way more durable than less softer coats. The down side is it takes way more time to torch all those coats which was why his baits were so expensive. He had like 40 hours into each bait. Mike Lazarus tested a 12 inch Deepthreat for me that had three coats of etec cold tumbled. He hit three big fish on it last year and was very happy with the toughness. He said it didnt need to be any better. I consider him to be one of the best in the game and his opinion helped me to finalize the number of top coats on a standard 12 inch Deepthreat. The Titanium model is built strictly for bashing rock. We nicknamed it the rock crusher. Top coats on this bait have to help hold the nose together when the lip hits the rocks. Johnny Dadson is currently testing the first prototype of this bait. I cant wait to see how it holds up. There is nowhere on earth better than Georgian bay to test the durability of every part of a lure. Rock bashing is the ultimate test of wood, metal and epoxy. When I hear back from Johnny Ill post the results. Good luck, I hope I was of some help. Kingfisher , Talonz Wooden Lure Company |
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Posts: 27
Location: Calgary, Alberta | Wow, tons of great advice all! I can see now that equal proportions of epoxy do not neccesarily mean properly mixed  I guess my problem with teeth marks in the lures is not so much about marking up a nice lure as it is concern about water penetrating the wood. I currently use the plastic proportionate method for sealing but I find that the plastic tends to create a coating over the wood rather than penetrating it, therefore when a big pike takes a chunk out of one of my lures, bare untreated wood is exposed which renders the lure unusable until I get home & touch up the holes Perhaps I should experiment with the sanding sealer some of you speak of.
Evan, thanks I did receive your PM, I'm not much of a computer guy so I don't think to check things like Pm's & Email very often! Thanks for the advice. |
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | silvertip laminating resin, they have 2 types of hardener (fast and slow). I use the fast and control how fast it goes off with temperature. Kingfisher is right, temp control is important. Read the spec's on all the epoxies and see how hard and flexible they are, all the company's have them on there websites. Like Riverman said for softwood (I feel all wood really) seal it to make it hard first, I use thinned epoxy (tried the proportinate and agree with you and do not like it) that soaks in and binds the wood together. When the hooks and rocks wear threw it (eventually they all wear threw) seems to keep the wood from blowing up. System 3 has a book (it can be downloaded) called the epoxy book, read it. |
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Posts: 27
Location: Calgary, Alberta | Allright fellas, I'm re-tooling & re-thinking my approach to the importance of sealing & hardening the blanks before painting, then being more dilligent when clearing & topcoating my next batch. Thanks again to everyone for pointing me in the right direction |
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| Steebar from Steebar.com, industrial strength, proved more than suitable for Blues, Stripers and Barracuda |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | I use an auto epoxy on my Grunts. To make sure I get good mixing I mix for 3-5 minutes in a big container and then dump out my epoxy blend onto a cookie sheet, put on rubber gloves and just lay the lures in the epoxy and rub it all over the lures. I then wipe off the extra and hang them. I waste a little epoxy this way but not much if I do 10-40 lures at a time and you get great coverage and really good mixing since your applying with your hands.
JMO
James
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Posts: 235
| If your looking for a way to get an accurate measurement of part 1 & part 2 of your epoxy or envirotex, got to a Vet supply store or go to your local vet and purchase those disposable plastic syringes. They come in several sizes and I make sure I mark the 1 & 2 as I use them over for quite some time and you have to the same one each time you mix a batch. You can't use one for resin one time and then the hardner the next time. You must make sure you mark them and your bottles so you don't get confused. I've been using envirotex for about 8 years and have not had any major problems. I know its not bullet proof but this big fish are some tough customers. Hope this helps out. These syringes are actually quite cheap. I think I paid $0.40 ea. for the 12 ml but they do have larger ones. I only do a few at a time. Like the earlier posts said, also make sure you mix your coating very well. |
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | after reading Kens post I would add on the accurate mixing. Think about a small digital postal scale that reads in grams. When doing small amounts going by weight works better (per the epoxy book mentioned in my earlier post), I have had much better luck doing it by weight. |
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Posts: 4266
| Bagley is living proof of the problem that you are having. They make great lures, but I've had laremouth and smallmouth bass crush them so they were useless. Balsa is so soft that I don't think that any topcoat made could put up with having to be flexed as much as happens when balsa gets flexed.
Rapala's topcoat holds up better than any other balsa lures that I've been.
With softer lures, you might be better off with a spray-on topcoat. I've used multiple layers of spray-on Envirotex with good results, and I also have used a 3-part automotive topcoat that holds up with several layers applied. But I have never used balsa. The softest wood that I used was basswood, and I'll never use that again because of topcoat problems. Even multiple layers of E-Tex cracked.
I echo many of the other points....exact measuring, and dehumidifiers are 2 that I am a firm believer in.
An afterthought...I used to use sanding sealer for the first coat on every lure, but now I dip them in Polystyrene (Barriercoat by Sherwin Williams) instead. It penetrates even hard woods, and after the first dip, I use extra fine sandpaper to go over any rough spots and then dip them a second time. After that it's like painting on an eggshell. Must use outside- well ventilated with a mask- but it's worth it. We used it at the water plant that I used to work at to make 24" castiron pipes stop sweating. That's a good holdout for me.
Also, instead of sanding between coats, you can wipe your lures with rubbing alchohol to make sure that they are free od oils and dirt before applying extra coats. I put on 3 coats of E-Tex, and wipe them down after coats 1 and 2.
Beaver
Edited by Beaver 8/22/2008 8:48 PM
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | Where were all you guys 5 years ago? lol...........it took me three years to figure out all the stuff that I could have read in this thread in 10 minutes!
I do just want Ken is doing with the syringes and never have a problem of any kind.
Jed V. |
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | Jed - Took me that long also with a lot of mistakes. There is a lot of knowledge in this thread, there are a lot of good lure builders here. We just made it to easy for the new guys didn't we ( I always learn a little from these also), we are supposed to take this info to our grave right...LOL. |
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Posts: 27
Location: Calgary, Alberta | Well I hope you "veteran" guys stay away from the grave for a very long time since I still have lots to learn Seriously though, I'm in my mid-thirties, have a wife & three kids, & VERY little free time at my disposal so if I had to struggle through the learning process with no help, I likely would have given up in frustration a year ago. That would have sucked because even though I do not have the time to put into this hobby to really do it justice, I really enjoy what I am able to acheive & take a lot of pride in catching fish on my own creations. Even more satisfying when a buddy catches fish on one of my creations!
Thanks again to everyone who is unselfish enough to share with the world! John. |
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Posts: 76
| RiverMan - 8/22/2008 10:45 PM
Where were all you guys 5 years ago? lol...........it took me three years to figure out all the stuff that I could have read in this thread in 10 minutes!
I do just want Ken is doing with the syringes and never have a problem of any kind.
Jed V.
the syringes are super good ! but they gave my baits fisheyes even do i cleaned them before i started using them |
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Posts: 4266
| Jed, you seem to have figured ALL of it out, and do a very good job for a guy that started from scratch. I bet you are a lot like me, with buckets of failed attempts. But every failed attempt was a victory, because we learned how NOT to make a lure correctly.
I know that this thread started as a top coat question and branched out from there. I always enjoy reading how other guys do things, because there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Here's a place that you guys might enjoy visiting. It has an abundance of woodworking-related products that might be just what you are looking for. I've used many, and can say that they all are the best that I've used.
www.abotron.com
Their tech people are always willing to help you out if you tell them exactly what you are looking for.
Beaver |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | Thanks Beav.........not sure I have it "all" figured out but most of the time I can get things to work out for me. And yes, I have made tons of mistakes; at one time I had an entire ice chest full of mistakes.........I'm not kidding you. I cut all of them in half on the band saw and tossed them out. I just wish I was better at making tools that make the job easier. Some guys seem to have a nack for this kind of thing and unfortunately I am not one of them. Half as fast, twice as far I guess.
Jed V. |
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Posts: 179
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | Jed,
I did a similar thing...I kept all my mistakes and was always gong to fix them...lol. One day I looked at the lot and threw them in the burn barrel, added gas and lit it.
Rod |
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Posts: 235
| Hey Jed, making your own fixtures or tools is much like making the lures. You get an idea and have to give it a try. Like you said not every bait works the first time. I make most of my own lathe tools, fixtures for making my lure lips. I sharpen all my own tools including bandsaw blades and carbide saw blades. I don't always suceed on the first try on either. I have two small cardboard barrels full of baits that didn't work. My son just loves it as he uses wood to heat his house. I always tell him, throw another lure (log) on the fire and then he laughs. I didn't think I would ever be able to paint any baits because when it came to being artistic, I couldn't draw flies. So much for that. Now I am really addicted as are you and you do an awesome job. If I can ever be of any assistance please feel free to ask. Thanks and have a great day. Ken |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I might take you up on that some time Ken. The sharpening stuff I can handle, running the machines, airbrush, paints, etc., not a problem. But making a custom fixture to hold a lure in to cut lip slots, weights, or whatever, forget it! lol
Jed |
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Topcoat durability frustrations!