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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I've been musing with some friends and thought I'd throw something out.
We in MN (and anyone who's fishing here) are all benefiting from the work that others did 20-30 years ago. At that time if you wanted to go muskie fishing in MN you were more then likely traveling to the Walker area. At that time less then 2% of all anglers fished muskies. At that time a much larger % of people who fished muskies were in MI, and a larger % of those members contributed. During this time the DNR and MI members really put forth the effort to raise the bar, work together and expand the fishery like no other state has in recent times.
Fast forward 20 years.
-Now we have 3x the lakes that hold muskies.
-We have 80% more fishermen.
-Lakes that have "poor" forage are kicking out upper 40-50" fish.
-Most people have never fished Leech, Cass, Winnie, etc and probably couldn't even tell you how to get to one of those lakes.
-Mille Lac and Vermillion are kicking out fish that rival the state record on a semi regular basis.
The state is at a crossroads of sorts now. On the one hand the lakes we're all enjoying are peaking or have already crested out. On the other:
-There are more organizations that are trying to kill the current program much less the expansion of the resource.
-The DNR budget is in a crises and HUGE cuts are going to be happening in the immediate future and the long term looks worse.
-The Dark House folks are coming out of the nursing home to throw one last wrench into things before they pass on.
All this is happening and nobody seems to care.
-When asked to buy a $2 raffle ticket to stock fish muskie fishermen say no.
-When asked to attend a tournament, people say they'd rather fish "other lakes that have more fish" ( I wonder how they got there).
-When asked to buy a banquet ticket people say "I don't want to come on a Friday" (in the middle of Feb no less).
-When asked to send a 5 sentence email to support the DNR's new program people "don't have time".
-When asked to attend a town hall meeting to get their own backyard stocked with muskies people are nowhere to be found. Even then they're told about it in 1st person.
All this and the average muskie fisherman spends 30 days on the water and over $5000 a year on muskie fishing. Granted there are some people who don't fit in with this broad paint brush, but they seem to be the exception (not trying to toot my horn at all BTW).
Are we spoiled with the fishery we have?
Edited by Muskie Treats 6/20/2008 11:32 AM
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The new fishermen who are reaping the benefits of the past work and not getting involved are definately spoiled.
They're also pretty selfish.
I see guys on my local waters on a regular basis, guys who never fished for them until these new fisheries were made.
They've been reaping the benefits of their new found passion and won't join the local MI club, won't but raffle tickets and won't lift a finger to help out when it's time for the public meetings that can decide our future in MN. When you see them on the water they want to know what the fish are biting on. I used to be more cordial, but now they all just bite on hooks when asked.
Seems to be a lot of thankless people out there.
JS
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Posts: 667
Location: Roscoe IL | You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Some may just want to go fishing & not get all wrapped up in the club scene. If they purchase a fishing license they do contribute in a small way. I would not hold anything against anyone for not geting involved. They may not have the passion you have & may just be lucky they can even make it to the lake without seeking legal representation when they get home.
Fishing is a sport that is supposed to make you feel spoiled. I feel lucky & spoiled every time I get time on the water. Especially these days when it is harder to find the time.
If you have the skills & passion to get involved & want to make a difference. Hey, thats great & I wish you well. But to hold it against other anglers that just want to fish & go home?
Now go sell some screws you cry baby! 
Love Mike @ Shakeproof
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Posts: 909
| Just like evey oranization! You got a handful of guys who do everything, and the rest of the world (Usually sittin on a bar stool somewhere) to [complain] at you about how your doin it wrong! "BEEN THERE DONE THAT"  | |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Ah, yes, 24/7: I see it in organizations I'm involved with, too.
Shawn, God Bless You! for the work you've been doing lately on the Minnesota plan. Please let us Mn-tourist types kow what we can do to help - sometimes the state is more concerned with its incoming tourist dollars than taxes paid by its citizens.
I know when I started fishing muskies, I'd read all these tales on the Internet about folks getting one after another after another. Well, I've worked hard for each of my fish, and certainly want opportunities to be present for future generations to do the same. Hang in there and keep at them, and thank you again. m | |
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Posts: 313
Location: On your favorite spot | spoiled by what? too many lakes? too much room to fish? granted the fishery is top-notch - shouldn't this be the norm? with all due respect - the fishermen who just fish and don't get involved are spoiled - most of us are working really hard to keep making things better.
you wonder why guys like Skarie and others come off a little jaded? they've been fighting tooth and nail to get what we've got today. they have to. plenty of people at the meeting where the guides tell you how to catch fish, not so many at the stocking committee meetings.
if we get complacent and start thinking we've got it made we'll lose it all to those who would have it otherwise. there is no middle ground. good thread.
Edited by Marc J 6/20/2008 2:15 PM
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Posts: 3163
| couple years back hardlyy any muskie anglers showed up from the twin citys to support the French lake spearing ban open public meeting,,,however bumped into ALOT of familiar musky faces at the Cabelas sidewalk tent sale in Owatonna which is just has far or farther then French lake,,wont show up to support a muskie lake but will come if theres a chance to save 40% on rain gear
Edited by happy hooker 6/20/2008 2:23 PM
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Posts: 227
Location: New Brighton, MN | I feel blessed and lucky everytime I am on the water, but I don't feel spoiled....
That would imply a level of success.
I wonder, what are your expectations? I am new to the sport, 30 years old, never will keep a muskie, and (in my opinion) am not a detriment to muskie fishing.
What are your suggestions?
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | Yes, enjoying the work of many great leaders of MI and the MN DNR.
We all want more waters and more muskies, and we don't want to put forth the collective effort to support this. As the DNR budget is cut that will just put more pressure on us to support the stocking of MN water if want to expand or maintain the fisheries.
Was at the metro tournament last saturday, we had boat for the raffle and the wrapped truck for the Frank Schnieder tournament. 500 participants showed up you would have tought you could have easily sold 500 tickets, not close($2 a ticket). In this world you will se the people who will carry the communittee, and those along for the ride. Funny thing is that I ran into Don Kampen from WI Rapids, who came over to fish this event.
Willis, I think the point is that if you fish the metro water, alot of what you have to fish is because of MI and the DNR, MI raising money to stock fish in the metro, White Bear is lake that got started because of John Newmans years of fighting with the DNR about what it could be, most fish stocked in WB is strickly MI and Hartmans fish, what kind of fishery has that lake become. This year we are pushing to stock $30,000 of fish into MN waters, Shawn and Georgle Selcke andy many more, thank god they must not have a first job, because they spend hours at the DNR and other special interest meeting trying to defend Muskies and the stocking and introduction of new waters. Show up at Twin Cities musky inc meeting and find out all what is going on in the MN Muskie world, alot more going on behind the scenes. Maybe you will find something that you will like to get involved with.
Troyz
Edited by Troyz. 6/20/2008 3:16 PM
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I agree with Willis.
"Spoiled" implies that one has had it different (the old timers) and now the fish might be jumping into the boat.
Here on Cave Run the fish are there ... but one must work very hard to catch them.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 6/20/2008 3:18 PM
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | Craig yes spoiled would be the correct term if you want compare today to 20 years ago.
There was no real metro lake to fish, you would have had to drive 3 hours to find a musky lake, know there is 20+ lakes in metro area. Tonka and become one top lakes in the STate, that Many PMTT anglers love to come and fish when coming from their home states.
If you do not want to support that is fine, but don't complain about what becomes of the fisheries and what lakes are stocked, or the excess pressure because new lakes are not being developed, because a handful of musky guys show up at meeting to determine the future of the fisheries.
I am suprised your not more involved in your club. with Cave being a put and take fishery. That your club would find it important to keep the stocking going and making sure the DNR keeps the lake stocking goals. When they stop or reduce stockings because lack of $$$ because of budget cuts what will happen to Cave.
Troyz | |
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Posts: 584
| First off, let me just say kudos to those who have worked their tail off in the name of service to the resource—helping to create tremendous public fisheries. Respect needs to be given where it’s due, and the MI clubs and other individuals who dedicate their time, passion, and talents to helping the resource deserve it.
With that said, and I mean it sincerely, I’m not sure that presenting the message in this manner is very productive. I don’t know the inner workings of the funding for MN’s natural resources, DNR, etc, but the muskie fishery is a public resource, and no doubt, it couldn’t exist without public funding from John Q. Taxpayer—which includes all the spoiled and ungrateful anglers who are being referring to. Sure, the dedication and efforts of certain individuals and clubs have obviously played an important and vital role, but you can’t expect every average citizen/angler who wishes to take advantage of the public resource to have that same level of commitment and dedication. Not every muskie angler needs to be a member of “the club”. And then labeling the average angler as ungrateful and calling them “spoiled” isn’t the best way to generate warm and fuzzy feelings. Everyone buying fishing license has the “right” to fish for muskies. The way the message is coming off, it is sounding a little bit like you folks consider these fisheries to be “your” fisheries, rather than the public resource that it actually is.
It’s extremely important to try and get your message out, and create awareness to these issues, and thereafter and thereby, generate support. But geez, Skarie, you make it sound like you are purposefully rude to anyone who isn’t a member of “the club”. That sounds an awful lot like elitism, and it’s a pretty poor way to get more folks into “the club”...who knows, it might even turn some people off to muskie fishing in general. There are probably better ways to generate interest and support…perhaps by having a more positive approach, rather than trying to guilt people into action. Remember, essentially, you’re trying to sell something here.
All I’m really saying is don’t forget the old adage regarding attracting more worker bees with honey……
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Posts: 1168
| Some are spoiled some aren't. Muskie fishing is getting better and better with more water, more known about these fish from a biological standpoint and so on....
You can sniff out those who are spoiled a mile away. They are being spoon fed information about locations and can't think on their own when you need to think a little creatively to find active fish. Or they've always had good equipment to run around in instead of begging to hop in someone's boat or had to fish out of a leaky skiff that would be better off sitting on someone's front yard with daisies planted in it. It's tough fishing with that type because you ask for input and it's always; "so and so would go here, so and so would go there..." screw that, tell me what YOU think, not what someone else would do. Maybe it's not so much spoiled as much as it is an overinflated ego that is trumped up by the hard work and experience of others spoonfeeding the wannabe or never-will-be all that he knows.
A couple of nights ago a good friend and old time muskie fishermen summed it up pretty well. "Sometimes these fish eat that chunk of wood you put in front of them, sometime they don't. This isn't a strategical game of chess as much as it is luck, so put yourself in a spot to be lucky and if you forget about luck shining on yourside then you're either spoiled or you have a serious ego problem." | |
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| Excellet post, Screw Dude. Excellent and well-considered responses, for the most part.
I've fished in MN only a few times over the past few years, and I'm not up to speed on the politics of the issue in the state. But I can still maybe do something about it.......
Isn't Al Frankin currently running for a senate spot in MN? If he wins I'll drop him a note about the issue and my opinion regarding such. He'll listen to me, we're both Deadheads. Deadheads stick together, we share a vision of "things as they are" rarely found outside Deadhead/hippie circles, right Mikie? (Worrall sees the same vision as well, he knows the deal.)
So, stand by.....
Ranger
Edited by Ranger 6/20/2008 4:51 PM
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| I think the message is right on point and it hit home with me. I do NOTHING to contribute other than buy a license, pay taxes and send a letter or email on occasion. The only "work" I've put into this is going to the DNR office in St. Paul to voice my opinion about stocking Gull Lake. This honestly made me look in the mirror. The mesage is clear as a bell to me. I can guarantee you won't hear me complain about a thing unless I start to participate in the process more. I think the way this was presented and the message are exactly where they need to be. We need to start taking care of ourselves and not expect others to do it for us. | |
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Posts: 3920
| Agreed, Parker-Dude. Taking care of ourselves mandates educating our elected leadership and demanding action.
Even Deadheads have a voice.
Edited by Ranger 6/20/2008 5:50 PM
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| I don't think we are spoiled at all. I really believe if you were not fishing at least 15 years ago, you are missing out on what muskie fishing was all about. It is so commercialized and socially regulated, it is more of a sorority than a fraternity at this point...I guess you could feel spoiled, it depends on what is important to you...Ben | |
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Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN | Indeed. Excellent post, well written and thought provoking. Matt D. also had an excellent perspective. Two opposing thoughts that couldn't be more true. However, as Treats said, the latter wouldn't even have a viewpoint if not for those that have worked on creating and protecting theses fisheries. Oh, and Troy, so far Tonka SUCKS!:) | |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Worrall's a Deadhead? I've always thought of him more as a Paul Simon/Neil Diamond sort of guy. He's that smooth.
Kevin
I hope their having fun. | |
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| Can someone tell me the last time the MN fishery was expanded? I am interested in say the last five lakes and the first year they were stocked. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hopeful,
Two sides to every coin, two sides...
It's always, and I mean alway been a few who 'get it done' to the benefit of the many. Human nature. And in most cases, it's a good thing, too many good folks crashing around in the kitchen ruins a good cook's day. Just send money, like Matt said, sorta.
There will always be those who work long and hard to preserve and improve our lives all the way around, and those who live in that benefit with no clue at all who done it. There are those who are aware of who helps make our Muskie angling better and more enjoyable, and for more reasons than are listable here, can't help much. Treats, we're actually in pretty good shape these days...at least we can get the word out when help is needed, fast and efficiently. Every one of us have to decide what we are able to do, and then do it without any expectation of much fanfare.
No sorority here in Northern Wisconsin, Ben, just folks looking to enjoy a day on the water and mebbe in the process catch a Muskie or two. As was so wisely stated, paraphrasing here... 'what one believes is real is based upon one's perception'.
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Mr. DeVos with the best post that I have scene in a long time. | |
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Posts: 280
| Matt DeVos......absolutely right on the money. Great post!!
Edited by fins355 6/21/2008 6:42 AM
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Its no wonder DeVos is a Lawyer
Nice Post Matt.
My first reaction..."ARE YOU SERIOUS!"
We are bent about people reaping the rewards of others hard work for a fishery...
I got news, there are a LOT more important things in life than muskie fishing that you should be pissed about people riding on the coat tails of others....
For example...those that made this country what it is. I am being generic here, because there are a lot of different avenues that lead to this great country. I mean from the armed services down to the great pioneers that went west to establish towns.
And now you have poeple sitting on welfare NOT trying to work, NOT trying to better their life...and yet complain.
OR
Not at all worried about this up coming election....not getting involved to REALLY learn the candidates etc.
Now this to me puts it into perspective as to what we REALLY should be upset about....As worrall said...its human nature that people take for granted what they have.
So I guess before you get your feathers all ruffled because some guys are reaping the hard work of others in the developed muskie fishery...look in the mirror and decide if you really are doing the same thing...but for a lot MORE important issues....
We are all guilty to some extent....so reminds me of the throwing rocks in a glass house statement...
Cory | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'll vote the Devos-Painter ticket on this one. wish i could have gotten onto the thread earlier to elicit the same response. for anyone who reads those two posts and doesn't "get-it" ... there is a place for you which is among the elite, proud and selfish who don't get the purpose for all of the work. it's for the "resource" and for the "future" and not for the few members who "deserve".
there are anonymous contributors who deserve much more credit ... but that's just it ... they'll never get it because they don't want it. it wasn't why they got involved in the first place. these are the ones who really "deserve" the credit. to the score-keepers who work thankless hours ... tough. re-evaluate why you do what you do ... would you do it if nobody gives a rip but just because it's the right thing to do? or do you do it to demand the credit and respect? | |
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Posts: 280
| WOW!!
Great stuff!
Not much I can really add except my total agreement.
C. Painter.....outstanding! Nice to compare on a higher level.
Johnnysled.....I'm with you about the "score keepers". Good post.!
Matt DeVos......you said a mouthful!! Thanks!
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| The only thing that turns me off from musky fishing is all the thought I put into it these days...not sure if it's worth all that brain power considering I seemed to do just as good when I was younger and dumber. | |
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| eh I sorta take that last post back...it's not like I am going out trying to do "better"...know what I mean? meh...now I'm thinking TOO MUCH about it again..dammit | |
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| Steve, I probably should not have generalized everyone into the sorority. The what have you done for me lately seems to mostly reside in MN, and not everyone is involved. I just recall helping out with "no more muskies" and other issues that help was asked for only to watch the PMTT get railroaded when they originally went to MN by the same guys that consistently ask for help. I personally feel have fished most if not all of the muskies natural range at this point, that the best fishing and biggest potential for large fish do not reside in these newly evolved fisheries. The ones that have managed to not be managed seem to have turned out fine. Either way I can and do fish in MN without feeling at all "guilty" for not playing a bigger part. This idea of ownership through amount of time and effort put in is silly.
If doing this work gives someone more right to fish it, volunteer and donation take on a new definition. I prefer to think of them in their original context...We are spoiled in the sense that I can read and post this from an i-phone after mountain biking and getting ready to do a bit of trout fishing. Also if you find yourself in the Denver area, shoot me a PM I have no issue sharing what I have discovered out here so far....even if you did not actually do the leg work:)...Ben | |
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Posts: 440
| I heard a sermon once that hit home and is seems to pertain.
"If a person does a good deed and then ASKS for a pat on the back did he/she actually do a good deed." | |
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| The unfortunate reality is that within the next few weeks the future on Muskie fishing will be determined and all the work of all the people who have fought to make this plan a reality and build on the work that a handful of visionaries created in the past will be swept under the rug.
I have my thoughts as to how many will actually care on that day because they will be on the "HOT" bite on Mille Lacs, etc. or it would be their last vacation day, maybe they may not get paid to take a day or half day off.
The time is now, we've written all the letters, we've made all the calls, it's time for us to show the MN DNR just how much we care about our foundation and the future, you as Muskie fishermen MI members or not it really doesn't matter have a choice to make if you want to see the MN Muskie program crumble.
Sure you'll be able to reap the rewards of previous stockings over the past 26 years for a few more before it starts to rapidly deteriorate as it most assuredly will if this plan is defeated through the mechanics of a handful of anti Muskie anti fishing fanatics.
I have heard all the PETA this and that on every site and in every circle of outdoorsmen and women, the truth is you don't have to worry about the PETA freaks, you have to worry about, the 2 people that camp out at the state capitol the guy that's been appointed by our Governor to the Conservation Legacy Council to recommend the appropriation of funds for your fishery, he is also leading the Anti Muskie fight.
If you care about the future of Muskies in MN and across the range I would take a few hrs to act.
MN DNR needs to know how much this means to our fishery and to us or you'll be getting better acquainted with the Longville Walker area and 3-5 hr drives to a Muskie lake, these people are serious and they are organized.
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Posts: 468
Location: Not where I wanna be! |
Here is my take,
based on where i am at in my life financially i cannot justify expendatures on banquets, tournaments and the like. i have my membership to MI and fully support catch and release.
i do not think by today's fishermen enjoying what those that came before us "re-built" for us to enjoy is wrong. am i spoiled? not hardly, and i really appreciate the work that goes into creating and MAINTAINING the current fishery. it was rebuilt to be enjoyed and i feel no guilt for that.
however, there are fishermen who just catch for fun and only put money into their equipment and time are not wrong in doing so. i guess i respectfully disagree with the mentality that if they dont dump money and time into preservation, other than C&R, they are wrong. it is their right to choose how they spend their money and if they decide to not financially support MI, yet carefully release every fish they catch they are maintaining the resource and doing their part.
i cant afford to excessively put money into programs like MI and the like. and that has lots to do with where im at in my life, but i dont think that is wrong. I enjoy the MN musky fishery and i do my part by buying a MN fishing liscense and releasing every fish i catch, therefore i am doing my part and if many others do the same, they are doing what is needed!
we are enjoying what others created, but it wouldnt last if it wasnt maintained, we are needed to keep the current fishery where it is! | |
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| Are we spoiled with the fishery we have?
of course we are.
and thank God for that! (and Muskies Inc, and the state DNR's...)
i can understand Treats' frustrations: they work hard to help develop and preserve a fishery and then see loads and loads of others benefiting from it without so much as a "thanks for the memories" as they drive out of state.
i also agree with Matt and Cory's counterpoints: complaints such as those are best kept to the level of "musings among friends" that Treats referred to, whereas the very "public" face shown by the leaders such as Treats of various Muskies Inc groups is best kept positive and encouraging rather than negative and blaming. not saying those frustrations aren't real, just that a negative tone in public isn't the best tool for the goal of inspiring people to step up to the plate.
At that time less then 2% of all anglers fished muskies. At that time a much larger % of people who fished muskies were in MI, and a larger % of those members contributed.
what's the real numbers?
how many actual members did MI have 20 years ago?
how many actual members does it have now?
heck, each of those members currently pays something like $35/year for their membership...where is THAT money going to? lol...
if a much smaller group, spending a lot less money accomplished so much 20 years ago, just how much more could MI accomplish now if it were able to mobilize its membership?
doing THAT is a function of leadership, and denigrating those members about being tight-fisted will be less effective than complimenting and encouraging them to achieve great things...identify the specific goal and LEAD the people to it - that's just how people function.
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| Guest - 6/20/2008 7:08 PM
Can someone tell me the last time the MN fishery was expanded? I am interested in say the last five lakes and the first year they were stocked.
guest
many point lake in central Minnesota by Park rapids was just recently introduced and stocked with muskies
Rice lake by Brainard and part of the Mississipi always had muskies but numbers were low so now ih as been boosted with stiockings the last few years
there was a private stocking effort allowed on girl or child lake 'cant remember which" by longville | |
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| BenR - 6/20/2008 5:55 PM
I don't think we are spoiled at all. I really believe if you were not fishing at least 15 years ago, you are missing out on what muskie fishing was all about. It is so commercialized and socially regulated, it is more of a sorority than a fraternity at this point...I guess you could feel spoiled, it depends on what is important to you...Ben
well i was born 15 years ago does that count for me? 
Edited by guts 6/21/2008 9:11 PM
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Matt;
I've never been rude to any of the anglers I see on the water.
I just don't hand out fishing info to guys that don't want to be involved anymore.
It's not my job to tell people how many fish I'm seeing, where I'm seeing them and what they are hitting on.
That's info reserved for people that are involved, that are friends, etc.
I tell many, many guys I see out there flat out to join our local MI club to learn more about fishing and get involved with our club outings etc.
Some do, but most don't.
So I don't know where you got the being "purposefully rude" notion from, but that's not how it is.
JS | |
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Another point; taxes and liscenses don't pay for much in the muskie world in MN.
Many Point lake is being stocked with FM Muskie Inc. money to the tune of $5000 grand a year.
Obviously the TC chapter spends thousands, hundreds of thousands over the past years on stocking.
So many, many fishermen are reaping the benefits of a great fishery that has been built by lots of work and money not from the general public, but from involved people.
JS
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| john skarie - 6/22/2008 1:11 PM
Another point; taxes and liscenses don't pay for much in the muskie world in MN.
Many Point lake is being stocked with FM Muskie Inc. money to the tune of $5000 grand a year.
Obviously the TC chapter spends thousands, hundreds of thousands over the past years on stocking.
So many, many fishermen are reaping the benefits of a great fishery that has been built by lots of work and money not from the general public, but from involved people.
JS
John, that should be very rewarding for the people that put in the time and money. That is why they do it correct? To create a great fishery for people to enjoy. Otherwise it would be a silly investment for public waters. However I will mention that whenever people ask for help with the DNR or Homeowners associations the masses step up. If you want to alienate them because you put more time and money into it...that could seriously backfire. To many folks it already has...Ben | |
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Location: Not where I wanna be! | john skarie - 6/22/2008
So many, many fishermen are reaping the benefits of a great fishery that has been built by lots of work and money not from the general public, but from involved people.
JS
which is exactly why they did it in the first place.....
guess im not getting your gripe....
all any musky fisherman is REQUIRED to do is purchase a state liscense and follow length limits! if they do that, then they are doing their part. those that do extra, kudos to them, i appreciate it, but we cant expect everyone to be that devoted. thats just plain unfair...... | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Just got back from Lake X and chucked a little at some of the people's interpretation of my post.
The two general themes were:
1. Does the fact that we have a great fishery now give people a false sense of security about the continued success now and in the future? Do others ever wonder/care why it got where it is today? Does anyone know/care what it takes to maintain it? Does anyone even care enough to get off their duff to do the smallest measure to help themselves?
2. The general apathy that muskie anglers exhibit today vs. 20 years ago. Is that due to how good the fishing is? If it was worse would people rally like they did a couple generations ago?
Not trying to knock people's financial situation, but when guys who are running $50,000 Rangers fishing on lakes where they catch 10-20 fish a year brush you off for $2 to stock that lake is a little off by anyones standards.
Points of clarification:
- The fisheries budget comes from licenses sold not from the general John Q Taxpayer in most instances.
- MI membership hasn't changed more the 10-15% in many years. Don't have the hard data handy.
- Lambeau, I'm on the Finance Committee for MI now and it's tight. There's not a lot we can cut unless we go for the mag. Don't want to get into that.
-The % of anglers in MN comes from the Esox Management Plan. It was roughly 150,000 in state anglers. MI has around 7000+/- total and roughly 3000+/- in MN last I checked (could be wrong)
As far as LEADING Lambeau, what do they say about that horse and the water? If I was wanting to denigrate the members of my organization or the organization as a whole the email would have looked a lot different. This problem is larger then a club issue. Maybe it's generational, I don't know. All I know is that we've been doing, saying, and publicizing the "right thing" for some time now and it isn't taking hold. Often times it takes the cold slap of reality to get someone to get the picture.
What is important is what do the people who are fishing today want to do for themselves and for their children. That is where the "spoiled" comes in. Some people got it and some didn't.
I personally don't care what people think of me for this thread, my fishing ability (pretty poor lately FYI), the hours I volunteer, etc. NONE of that matters to me. What's important is my family and living right. For those that took shots at me, fine, I've got skin thicker then anyone on this site. It just shows me that you're looking too hard at the messenger and not the message. It's not about me, John, or John; it's about the resource that we're all enjoying right now and what we're going to do with it tomorrow.
The plain hard fact is that if people continue to be a part of MA (Muskie Apathy), then the fishing is going to get worse. If people want to take their destiny into their own hands then it'll get better.
Now putting on my fireman's jacket. Flame away XXOO.
P.S. Thanks for all the encouragement from the people who posted and PM'd. They out scored the negative by 10-1. | |
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Posts: 699
Location: Hugo, MN | Decent article in the Communist Daily
http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/19932084.html?page=3&c=y
Treats, thanks for all you do. I wish we had more people as passionate about the fishery as you. It took only a few weeks in South Dakota and 1, 1.5 hours trip to the nearest Musky lake to make one realize how good those in Minnesota especially the Twin Cities have it. I would urge all those Minnesota residents and those potentially traveling to MN for a Musky trip to write the DNR we need to come out and let the DNR know how many of us are out these because I guarantee every Darkhouse guy in the state has already written them.
Edited by marine_1 6/22/2008 11:06 PM
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For the people who choose not to chip in time (which can be a simple as a letter, e-mail or a body at a public meeting) money etc., often the best way to get them involved is with a little guilt.
You guys seem to be misinterpreting that with alienating, or being "mean" to anglers that don't get involved.
There is noting wrong with saying "hey man, if you like fishing so much, than get involved with keeping it around for future generations."
This also isn't about sitting on a high horse because one is involved.
This is about the big picture, and doing what you can to get others to give a crap.
If you want to use the excuse that becaus you buy a liscence you're doing your part, than that's fine.
But when the DNR says "we got no money for expanding muskie waters" don't complain about it.
JS
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| For the people who choose not to chip in time (which can be a simple as a letter, e-mail or a body at a public meeting) money etc., often the best way to get them involved is with a little guilt.
in your opinion, that is.
just speaking for myself, i put a lot of money into various fund-raisers ran by my local Muskies Inc club as well as the local non-MI muskie club that i also belong to. i support efforts that i believe in because they've been presented as beneficial and appealing, not because i feel guilty about freeloading off the work others have done to build the resource.
a "common sense" approach makes using guilt seem appealing, but research on the effective tools of social influence suggests that shame tactics are actually counterproductive in the long run, and that inspiring people toward approach-goals is way more effective. the key is figuring out how to inspire them to do so. it's the same issue encountered by many churches: a fiery "shame on you" sermon will increase donations from people in the pews on that day, but a positive campaign showing the benefits of planned giving reaps much higher rewards over the course of a year.
This is about the big picture, and doing what you can to get others to give a crap.
and people like Treats are the "do-ers" in an effort that benefits others in ways that are vastly underappreciated. thank you for doing it.
ultimately, you'll decide what approach and techniques you're going to use for your efforts. it might be worth looking at those groups (both within MI and outside of it) that are effective at fund-raising and modeling on what works for them. take well-intentioned advice for what it is: suggestions that might help you resolve the question about how to "get others to give a crap."
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| John,
Just sent a message to Treats as well. Thanks for all you do and have done and thanks for telling it like it is. Had John Underhill in the boat on Friday and we had lots of good discussion. Keep fighting the good fight. Steve
Edited by Steve Jonesi 6/23/2008 9:00 AM
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Posts: 468
Location: Not where I wanna be! |
Edited by THA4 6/23/2008 9:04 AM
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For people you know, and are friends with "preaching to them" works just fine.
Obviously you want people to be involved because they precieve a benefit from said involvement.
But when you have guys who KNOW the benefit, and KNOW they should be involved then I see nothing wrong with pressing the issue as to why they won't get involved.
The biggest part of the problem isn't that people don't know why they should be inolved, it's that they have so many excuses not to be.
Anyway, this is going in circles at this point.
Fortunately guys like Shawn and John U are stepping up to the plate for all of us.
JS
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Location: Contrarian Island | I can see both sides of this debate..good topic...there are those like THA4 that don't have the time or money to do "a lot" but they can still get involved. There have been posts by Treats and others on the boards to send emails to the MN DNR guys to show support for more lakes/ more stocking etc..now if the guys that fish MN or will in the future don't take the 2 minutes it takes to send an email, then yah, they are not doing "their part" imo... each of us, should do what we can with the time/money we have...if we don't then we have no reason to complain about anything....Muskies Inc is a good organization and costs roughly the cost of a new bait a year...imo all musky fishermen at a minimum should either be in MInc, or another local club or at a minimum donate at least the cost of one bait or 2 per year to stocking...that isn't much but it does help. How many musky fishermen are there and if each one of us, every single one donated $25 per year that went directly into stocking the waters we fish...think what that could do...I get what Treats is trying to say and I get the flipside...we should all do our part and help influence those around us to do the same in a positive manner..whether it's sending an email to support musky stocking etc or joining a club, or donating time and money to help the sport...
Edited by MSKY HNR 6/23/2008 10:12 AM
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Posts: 8863
| Are we spoiled? I haven't been at this game long enough to answer that. I believe the people who were doing this 20 years ago when they tell me about the work that's been done. I hear about work going on behind the scenes, I read all the discussions here, I think I know who the names are who are actually getting things done. What have I done personally?
I've sent letters and written e mails, etc. in support of places (MN) I don't even fish. I've probably given a few thousand bucks to muskies inc. over the past few years between raffle tickets, club tournaments, donations, banquets... Now that I think about it there's a lot of moeny that I don't know where it went or if it helped anything.
I like to THINK all the internet discussions and feeble attempts at C&R education (i.e. bar talk) have made some difference in the world of fishing, but I don't know.
I don't KNOW much. I THINK a lot, but one person's opinion is just that. Here's what I do know:
I live 2-1/2 hours from muskie fishing. Because of the demands of my job as of late, I am lucky to fish 10 days a year. I can write pretty well, but in person I'm just not very effective. I don't like crowds, I hate speaking in public. I am quick to anger, and I tend to offend people. I have little patience for that which I consider wrong, stupid, misguided, ignorant, or otherwise objectionable.
Some people, like Mr Kellet for example, can be "that face". They can work together with others to collectively accomplish great things. They can mediate, they can motivate, they can speak their mind intelligently in the face of opposition. They can educate, patieltly and get things done. I am NOT that person. I can make enemies and fight with people. I can escalate otherwise civil discussions into chaos. I can use the f word 15 times in a sentence and direct it at you. But being the person who is out there getting things done? Not in person, not me. I only get along with people who agree with me.
That said, I have great admiration for those folks. I don't know how anyone can be that level headed. I don't know how they can be nice enough.
I provide financial support where I can, and I hope that does some good. I attend what I can in my club. I try to educate people where I can and be helpful where I can.
But I don't pretend to be a "do-er" Even if I were able to "play well with others"?? Well, I'm not one to take initative. I'm not responsible enough, driven enough, or motivated enough.
I'd rather go fishing.
Now, if I could take that money I give to muskies inc. and buy a muskie? If I could actually write a check, and know that three fish, or 5 fish or whatever would be stocked with that money?
That's something I'd be excited about. I'd even drive to wherever to help. I'd get a huge kick out of personally buying and stocking fish. And I believe a lot of other guys like me, who can't stand the politics, and the (necessary) dealings with the opposition, paperwork, phone calls, etc. If they could just send a check to buy 10 muskies and have them stocked somewhere?? That would be huge.
Edited by esoxaddict 6/23/2008 10:22 AM
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Location: oswego, il | I agree in the statement that 10% do 90% of the work and I am not sure that will ever change. I think it is a great thing that we have guys like Shawn, John and John leading and caring about our fisheries and it would be great if all musky anglers had the time to put into it. Some don't care for sure and take things for granted, that's not everyone but it only takes a few apples to make the buschel look bad to some.
M.I. is doing alot but in reality only on the chapter level and I think this is M.I.'s biggest problem. I know our new president is looking to change all of that and I hope he gets that ship righted. I will say this, it's hard to get people involved on the chapter level when the international side does not appear to take up the same causes. If you seached their website for size limits and the things we are talking about here vs other stuff, it would appear and probably true that the international side seems more intersted in chapter challunges and memorial tournaments than it doe issues of stocking, expanding fisheries and size limits. Did anyone see ANTYTHING!!! in the M.I. magazine this year about the spring hearings? Does it ever? You could read every detail about those chapter challunges though. I am not saying those challunges are not important, fun or anything like that. I am saying the international side is missing the target completely on many things that should be important.
I bet ducks unlimited and pheasants forever get out their messages of conservation and the importance to their recourse. It makes them strong, gives them purpose and sells itself. | |
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Posts: 584
| Muskie Treats:
I hope you don’t think that I was being negative towards you. That wasn’t my intent. It sounds to me that you’ve done excellent work, and your post does a great job of creating awareness to the obstacles facing the fishery. Your efforts in this regard are much needed and greatly appreciated.
My point was simply that the tone of your post, and some of the posts that followed, could be construed BY SOME to be a bit overly negative, and perhaps a bit condescending, and perhaps even a bit self-entitled.
There are lots of reasons for all muskie anglers to get involved and help out to the benefit of the fishery, as you point out. I’m sure that there are plenty of muskie anglers who also are “on the fence” about joining up with a Muskie Inc. club, or have been thinking about helping out/getting involved, but for whatever reason haven’t taken that next step. As Lambeau points out, as LEADERSHIP goes, you need to figure out how to motivate these people. Perhaps placing a negative label (such as “spoiled”—or “thankless” and “selfish” like John Skarie said), might not be the best approach to inspire the masses, or, at the least, that message should also be balanced against a positive approach.
Lambeau also had the excellent analogy of the church sermon. Like he said, the “fire and brimstone” approach (you are all sinners and inches away from going to hell), might be effective for the collection plate on that day. But a preacher who only preaches that sermon probably won’t get a lot of long-term support. (People don’t enjoy being told that they are horrible sinners every Sunday—even if it is actually true). It’s not necessarily bad to preach the “fire and brimstone” sermon, but it should be countered with a strong inspirational message of REDEMPTION!
That’s really my only point. Don’t forget that a very effective, and perhaps the best, way to generate support is through a positive message.
Here’s another example of what I’m trying to say. Have you ever watched the pledge drives on public television? Have you ever heard the announcer/spokesperson say:
“This generation of viewers is the most spoiled and ungrateful that we’ve ever seen. We know that there are lots of viewers, and our programming is the best it’s ever been, yet we are hardly getting any donations. Don’t you know how hard we’ve worked over here? And you can’t even send in a measly $5 per month? What a bunch of selfish and self-centered people you are! Ungrateful free-loaders…Now, please call and give us the money that you should have given already and also donate your time by volunteering so that we can continue to bring you this tremendous programming…”???
Probably haven’t heard them say that? Instead, during their pledge drives, they put the best shows on TV, and then break in to extol the virtues of their shows, give other examples of their great programming, brag about how great their shows are, and then indicate, humbly but assertively (and truthfully), that they need your money to keep doing what they are doing.
Maybe that’s a model that would be more effective? Just giving my $0.02…
I'll shut up now.... | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | a great example of fund-raising and generating champions for the cause is st. jude children's hospital. now, of-course the causes can't be compared and i don't for a second pretend to think they can. but, they are able to inspire passion ... and pride. if you are a donor to st. jude you become a disciple in the cause because 1. your cause is just, 2. your contribution is visual and 3. the people you share your passion with are those you would want to be identified with.
so, i ask those others out there ... not to compare the two causes, but ... do you feel the 1, 2 and 3 are being provided with your efforts to raise money. if-so, you probably have plenty of resources and if-not ... you may want to evaluate your organization, its methods and its corresponding results.
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When the cause is to let the MNDNR know that muskie fishermen care by sending e-mails, letters or attending a meeting how can anyone not feel that is "just", or worth being a part of?
You don't have to join MI to help out.
Whether you like MI or the people in it has nothing to do with showing public support for the muskie program when it is needed.
Some of you are taking the critism of inactivism among muskie fishers a little overboard, there is nothing wrong with pointing out realities.
JS
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i wasn't arguing john ... just putting out a suggestion for how fund-raising is done at the highest level and how it seems to work.
if it was pointed at me ... i'm a member of MI ... some questions yes but a member for many of the reasons mentioned by bnelson above.
maybe it's not the message but how it's being sent ... ?
you could beat the heck out of them so they could finally understand? ... being a bit cynical here, but that's what i get from your last post and i'm on the same team ... think of the impact you make on someone you might want to win over? | |
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| Sources of Minnesota DNR Funding.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/aboutdnr/budget/whopays/fundingsources.h...
State taxes
For every dollar collected in total state taxes, less than one penny goes to pay for the DNR.
State taxes, the largest category at $266.0 million, provides just over half of the DNR's funding. State taxes can be further broken down by tax type.
* Individual income tax. Paid by individual Minnesota taxpayers, this source will provide $100.2 million in funding.
* Sales tax. Funding of $64.4 million comes from the state sales tax of 6 cents paid on the purchase of most goods--furniture, appliances, supplies and materials--and taxable services. Businesses and individuals, both residents and state visitors, pay sales tax on their purchases made in the state.
* Gas tax. Providing $32.2 million in funding, the gas tax is paid on the gallons of gasoline consumed by recreational vehicles?motorboats, snowmobiles, all-terrain vehicles, off-highway motorcycles and off-road vehicles. It also includes the tax on the gasoline consumed by the off-highway operation of vehicles and heavy equipment in the forest industry.
* Lottery in-lieu-of-sales tax is the 6 cents of every dollar spent on state Lottery tickets and provides $30.3 million in funding.
* Corporate tax paid by corporations doing business in the state will provide an estimated $9.8 million.
* State property tax. A new tax category beginning in fiscal year 2002, this tax applies to certain classes of property and will provide estimated funding of $7.6 million.
* Motor vehicle sales tax. Taxes paid on the sale of new and used motor vehicles in the state will provide an estimated $5.9 million.
* Liquor and tobacco taxes are paid on purchases of liquor, beer, wine and cigarettes. This tax source will provide $3.9 million.
* Other state taxes. An estimated $11.6 million will come from other state taxes including deed and mortgage tax; insurance gross premiums tax; gift and estate taxes; medical provider surcharge; lawful gambling proceeds tax; and other special purpose taxes.
All this being 2002, 2003... I would think those living and owning a home in Minnesota contribute a lot by just living here. Something is wrong with less than a penny out of every dollar going to the DNR. Maybe it's your politicians.
The out of state fishing license is not what it should be, especially for out of state guides who are reaping the harvest of what others did 20 years ago. Will they still be here and keep coming back after the demise of the Minnesota musky fishery.
You can answer that one yourself. | |
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Posts: 468
Location: Not where I wanna be! | seriously guys, the MN musky fishery is not going down hill.
i think many lakes are just like climate changes, they are phases.... some are better than others at different times...... so much depends on the water conditions, pressure, ect.....
with the growing amount of musky anglers, most of them will have been educated by a vetern at some point, and id be willing to bet 99% of veterns would say the most important lesson to be learned is boatside handling and releasing the fish....
maybe some of you oughta have more faith in the masses....
i will tell you this much from a guy who isnt fully devoted to the conservation (i.e. clubs, organizations, or other similar programs) i am not motivated by this post to join up and give of my very hard earned money to the organizations that "promote" the fishery! at this point, id rather just fish.... as it was said.
wanna build a following, learn to lead by example..... looking down on and being condescending towards those who dont give as much as you does not create a following. sure there is lots to gripe about when it comes to the current fishery in many states, but there is lots of good as well! i highly doubt the MN Musky fishery will crumble any time soon! there is by far, much more awareness out there now than there ever was and that i think is worth something!
Edited by THA4 6/23/2008 1:32 PM
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Location: Contrarian Island | for the guys like me who travel to MN and fish the lakes...it would be great info to know what clubs or funds we could donate money to that would put fish directly into the lakes we fish. I know I'd be happy to send a check each year to a fund or club that I knew was taking that money and spending it on stocking the lakes I fish.
With soooo many of us traveling there each one of us should open our wallets each year and give a little...
Edited by MSKY HNR 6/23/2008 1:57 PM
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Location: Not where I wanna be! | fair enough, i might have strayed from the bottom line.....
i wont be guilted into supporting something, especially something i care a lot about and already take steps to MAINTAIN the current fishery. i will donate as i see fit and what i choose to give will prlly be more than average, but where i am at in my life does not allow for excessive giving, especially when im involved in so many passions, i.e. Turkey hunting, deer hunting, bass fishing..... the list goes on, but i think giving is more appreciated when it is determined by the giver, rather than an individual who makes you feel bad for not giving......
i will give as i see fit and i would hope the small amount i am capable of is looked upon with the same appreciation as the guy who donates as much as my annual salary.....
dont forget the little people | |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | THA4 - 6/23/2008 2:31 PM seriously guys, the MN musky fishery is not going down hill. i think many lakes are just like climate changes, they are phases.... some are better than others at different times...... so much depends on the water conditions, pressure, ect..... with the growing amount of musky anglers, most of them will have been educated by a vetern at some point, and id be willing to bet 99% of veterns would say the most important lesson to be learned is boatside handling and releasing the fish.... So... if 2008 was the last year they were stocked how long would handling and release maintain the fisheries? Five or Ten years? Treats - Yes, in the vast majority of the muskie range we are indeed spoiled. We have better/more fisheries in most areas than ever. Many people don't fully appreciate it because they became muskie anglers due to the fisheries created by those before us or in many cases by "us". However, with nearly all the State DNR's suffering during tough economic times muskie programs go on the chopping block quickly. Most people don't understand that muskie anglers are a such a small percentage (WI excluded) that we need to be more vocal and more active in the politics/management than the bass or walleye angler. | |
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Posts: 8863
| So the future of muskie fishing is...
US.
So in 20 years we're either going to be griping about how much better it was in the good old days, or we're going to be patting each other on the back, amazed at home great it has become.
Shawn, you're neck-deep in this stuff right now -- what it the most significant barrier to building and maintaining quality muskie fisheries? Is it money? If so, how do we change our fund raising strategies? As stated before -- I'd be much more inclined to donate money if I could directly buy fish for stocking. I believe people want something tangible for their money. Perhaps if fundraising efforts were geared differently, we'd have more participation?
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The point isn't to use guilt as a tactic for the masses, but for people who know better, and especially people you may know personally, there is no reason to not press the issue in a way that makes them think about why they won't pitch in.
MI members and chapters don't go around trying to make people feel guilty, so I'm not sure why some of you are potraying that picture, and criticising MI in that way.
For those of you that continue to use the "such and such is wrong with MI" excuse for not being involved, if you don't work on the solving the problem, than you're really just part of it.
It's kind of like the people who complain about the govt., but don't take the time to vote.
It seems a lot of you took this post kind of personally, even though nothing was directed at any individuals.
JS
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Skarie, call me 612-201-0209 | |
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Posts: 8863
| The problem as I see it, John, is that people are reluctant to offer any sort of help. Whether its financial, or volunteering, or even writing a letter or sending an e mail, the feeling I get is that A. People are convinced that nothing they do will do any good, and B. There's no immediate tangible benefit to them personally (i.e. what's in it for me...)
The cynic in me thinks that people are mostly in it for themselves and would rather take than give. (this "me first" attitude seems to prevail in most aspects of society today.) The only remedy I see to that is to convince people they aren't doing this for the fishery, the furure, the lakes, the kids, etc. but that whatever efforts they make are a direct benefit to THEM. You can't guilt people into doing anything at all, that just makes them resent you and your efforts. | |
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| Hmmmm......this post has lasted much longer than I expected.
Sworrall is not a Deadhead, but I'm aware that he typically considers a very wide and deep perspective(s) on any given subject. He'll tell you what he knows plus his opinion, or, he'll tell you he doesn't know much. He rarely jumps to conclusions, he prefers to be educated if the subject is worthy of his attention. Such an approach is typical of wise people who have been exposed to vastly different perspectives of "reality". This is demonstrated by his statement..."'what one believes is real is based upon one's perception'". Simple yet profound.
Back to the subject at hand.....I don't/won't join MI because they seem arrogant around here. I preach CPR to everyone I sell my leaders and crawler harnesses to. I put up home-made signs regarding CPR at musky lakes that I fish. People tear them down, I tack up new ones. I am making a difference, very small, but I'm doing my best.
Spoiled? As compared to what? "Spoiled", like "fast", is a relative term and must be compared to some established standard in order to determine the gap between the two. In the context of the initial post there's no standard for "spoiled", thus the question can't really be answered in "yes" or "no" terms. But Treat's post is thought-provoking and folks are giving it serious considerations and THAT is the most valuable outcome of Treat's initial post.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i think he and john skarie have since both tried to put the subject out there independent of MI which is fair and we should consider it based on that ...
it's not a MI debate but one that says ... "how do you wake people up so that the future is protected" ...
right? | |
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Location: Not where I wanna be! | jonnysled - 6/23/2008 3:30 PM
"how do you wake people up so that the future is protected" ...
Educate,
Enlighten,
Share,
Teach,
and practice what you preach
all of this is possible without money, but money can make all these methods reach many, many more people, but if you dont have the resources to financially invest in furthering the sport, invest in the people that participate and that in itself will preserve much of what we have.
there will always be people able to fork out coin to support what they believe in, and yes it is needed. But there will also be those who cant do that, so rather than alienating them, thank them for giving of what they can! thats better than criticizing IMO..... | |
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Location: NW WI | sworrall - 6/21/2008 1:02 AM
Hopeful,
Two sides to every coin, two sides...
It's always, and I mean alway been a few who 'get it done' to the benefit of the many. Human nature. And in most cases, it's a good thing, too many good folks crashing around in the kitchen ruins a good cook's day. Just send money, like Matt said, sorta.
There will always be those who work long and hard to preserve and improve our lives all the way around, and those who live in that benefit with no clue at all who done it. There are those who are aware of who helps make our Muskie angling better and more enjoyable, and for more reasons than are listable here, can't help much. Treats, we're actually in pretty good shape these days...at least we can get the word out when help is needed, fast and efficiently. Every one of us have to decide what we are able to do, and then do it without any expectation of much fanfare.
No sorority here in Northern Wisconsin, Ben, just folks looking to enjoy a day on the water and mebbe in the process catch a Muskie or two. As was so wisely stated, paraphrasing here... 'what one believes is real is based upon one's perception'.
In this post if you substituted the word "snowmobiling" for "muskie angling" you'd be describing the same thing going on here in Wisconsin.....a relative few doing the work for the benefit of many.
It's sad that this applies to more things than just muskie fishing and snowmobiling. | |
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Location: oswego, il | jonnysled - 6/23/2008 3:30 PM
it's not a MI debate but one that says ... "how do you wake people up so that the future is protected" ...
right?
I stated this more or less in my first post and it's to get the international involved. Get the magazine involved. Get the readers of the magazine involved. When the international does this the masses will see it's value more. Right now it's on the shoulders of the individual chapters. No one voice. It's hard to get chapter accomplishments to the forefront of musky fishing awareness without the international getting more involved.
I am proud member of M.I. and a contributing board member to my chapter. Not everyone has the time, everyone has their own situation. I can't blame anyone for not being a member because the look at the international and what it stands for or lack thereof and not what the chapters are doing. As I stated before, I think our new president sees this vision and I hope it gets done. | |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Ranger - 6/23/2008 4:25 PM Back to the subject at hand.....I don't/won't join MI because they seem arrogant around here. I preach CPR to everyone I sell my leaders and crawler harnesses to. I put up home-made signs regarding CPR at musky lakes that I fish. People tear them down, I tack up new ones. I am making a difference, very small, but I'm doing my best. Seem arrogant? Have you actually met and talked to the people that run your local MI chapter? I often hear arrogant and/or elitist used when someone or a group is simply proud of the difference they make. | |
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| I was very involved for a decent amount of time...VP of my chapter of MI back in the day. A few things happened on the national level and I no longer can be a member. It is just not a club on a national level that I would want to be associated with it. In NJ before moving to CO last summer I went to meetings, helped on guide for a day, helped the DNR shock and net fish. However I did not join, and won't. You don't need to join to help, you don't need to help to be good fisherman or person. We always speak of the great stick we all know that is as good as the pros, but doesn't want the recognition. I am guessing in the realm of helping the sport there are many that just don't want the credit...but do help out quite a bit....Ben | |
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| Many of the people enjoying our Muskie Mecca have no understanding or appreciation of how it came to be. Many of these people have probably never even heard of muskies inc. Is it their fault? The great thing about America is that we have the freedom to do as we choose. We also have a heritage of volunteerism (ie. non-govt special interest action.
Muskies Inc has defenitely failed in reqruitment and exposure efforts. We are working to change that. But as some of the people on this board know full well the success we have had has been done by a small minority of members contributing countless hours and dollars to improve the resource.
One thing I have a problem with are those profiting on the resource without giving back.
Regardless it is up to us to spread the message. Good muskie fishing, fishing in general, water quality and the heritage of conservation takes two things: money and time.
For those who have not taken the step to join us we invite you take that step. Whats the worst thing that can happen? Maybe you will make some new friends and catch some more fish. In fact I guarantee you this will happen.
Join our great little niche in the heritage of conservation and make a difference. You will recieve 10X as much as you give.
What could be more American?
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| Since this is basicly in regards to Minnesota Muskie issues Im wondering WHY hasent someone started an alternative muskie club/org here???
people point to, infact gloat that MI only has about 10% of all muskie fisherman has members then expect Muskies inc to defend itself about that!!!
Im wondering WHY the other 90% havent organized in some other way thats a bigger question??? I totally respect that maybe some people dont agree with MI policys or other issues But what I dont respect is people saying "well Id love to get involved in the muskie resource but NOT throug MI"
In this vast resource of 90% nobody has the balls or ambition to try to organize another alternative club,,its much easier now then it was 40 some years ago,,two major muskie magazines,,numerous muskie websites, buletin boards at musky shops, all this available to spread the word and organize,none of these advantages were available when MI started it was started with good old fashion get off the couch ambition..Im a very active Minnesota MI member and I would LOVE to see another alternative muskie club started so we have another voice to be heard by the dnr but all the people that would have the ambition to start something like that have already joined MI.
only 500 or so public responses to the dnr long range plan,,at public dnr open house muskie issue meetings the same 25-30 guys show up you might has well print up name badges ahead of time, still no alternative club now or brewing.
youd love to put a positive spin on it but it just seems to all add up to laziness and bystander apathy
Edited by happy hooker 6/24/2008 9:34 AM
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| Hooker, apathy certainly plays a part. But I believe perception plays a part as well. I've tried to get people to come to meetings, maybe fish some of the club outings or tournaments, join with no chapter affiliation. Some of the responses were astounding:
"what? Why would I want to waste a Wednesday night that I could spend with my family sitting around with a bunch of fat beer swilling flannel shirt wearning muskie fishermen?"
"Nah, I gave up being in "clubs" when I was a kid"
"So, do you play in a bowling leage, too? Got a shirt with your name embriodered on it and everything?"
"$35?! What do I get for $35? Some stupid magazine?"
"I'm not paying to line someone else's pockets"
It seems a lot of people fail to see any benefit from becoming a member. Even when you mention the fisheries and research aspect to people, a lot of them think research is a waste of time. And stocking is something we don't have to worry about because the fishing is good.
When it comes to youth, unless its their own kid most people really don't care. So yes, apathy and laziness I suppose, but I think its a lot more to do with people being selfish, and not wanting to do ANYTHING unless there's more benefit in it for them directly than the effort they have to put into it.
We can change the perception of what muskie inc is and does, but how do we change the fact that people are for the most part only looking out for themselves??
Edited by esoxaddict 6/24/2008 10:45 AM
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| how do we change the fact that people are for the most part only looking out for themselves??
you don't.
you recognize it as organic and you use it to your advantage.
show that your goals are in that person's interest (in a real, meaningful, and immediate way) and you've got them.
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Lambeau if the answer was that simple than every muskie fishermen in the midwest would already be a member of MI.
The reality of the situation is people find it much easier to come up with excuses why they don't need to be involved than care about the reasons why they should be.
JS
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| I guess I will chime in here. If I was shown a way that joining MI would benefit me and my State's fishery I would in a heart beat. All I ever hear is that MI is fighting a losing battle and that trying to deal with the Iowa DNR is like trying to climb Mt Everest in shorts, t-shirt and sandals. I have gone to MI meetings, bought raffle tickets, called the State DNR about things that I think need to be done (increasing size limits, more stocking programs in our State, etc.) all w/out being a member. Why spend the money and send it off to who knows where only to see the fisheries around me be abused. Seems kind of pointless. I have talked to MI members about issues and they act like there is nothing that can be done. So I can pay the membership fee to go sit at meetings (that are 2 hrs away) or I can use that money to support this addiction that I found last year. If there was a way I could see where that money was going, and know that I was making an impact I would be all for it. I know there is an Eastern Iowa Muskie Alliance, anyone up for starting a Western Iowa Muskie Alliance? | |
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| EA and John: I don't think its fair to assume that people are only looking out for themselves. That's kind of a jaded view. Perhaps its true on a macro level, but I don't believe that muskies inc needs support on the macro level to be effective. History seems to show that a relative few can accomplish very much. But think of how much more could be accomplished with greater membership and involvement....I believe that there are plenty of new anglers to the sport who are on the fence, or even unaware of the virtues of Muskies Inc, and these people could be persuaded with the right message. The sport has grown exponentially in recent times. Has Muskies Inc also experienced the same level of growth? I don't know the answer to that question. If not, there are some serious questions that need to be asked. If so, the follow-up question is "how can we grow even more?"....
It's true that not everyone needs to be a muskies inc member in order to be involved in and contribute to the resource. That's a fair point. But a club is a pretty good organizational tool to create awareness to the imporant issues and then to mobilize action....it's likely THE MOST effective means to get 'er done, so to speak. Therefore, with the issues and potential problems looming, as Treats points out in the original post, an effective and concerted effort by the club would likely go the furthest...
The conclusion of Longcast_jackpot's post is the kind positive message that needs to be at the forefront of the club's message. Perhaps it's always has been, and the earlier posts to this thread were borne of frustration since that message doesn't seem to be working. No one said it's supposed to be easy. Refining your "call to action" message and recruiting techniques is something that good organizations will constantly be striving to improve on. In the end, I think energy, ethusiasm, and a positive, welcoming message will bring the best results.
John, pointing out "the reality of the situation" as you see it doesn't really accomplish much, does it? Maybe you're just trying to vent. That's understandable...I can empathize with that. But what are you going to do about it? Stop being "cordial" to the "selfish" anglers, as you said in your original post? What's that going to accomplish? | |
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I've never stopped being cordial to anyone. I sit and talk with the local guys all the time. They just know that I'm not going to "spill the beans" on any hot bites anymore unless they join our club. I fish with a lot of these guys too.
Again, I'm not sure why you're implying rude or condescending behavior on my part, that's not the case at all.
Js
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As far as pointing out realities, the "charges" or claims of why people won't join MI have been pointed out.
I'm just replying to the subject as it's evolved in this thread.
Don't confuse that with how I potray myself or my ideas to people on a regular basis.
Is pointing out "the realities" as I see them effective?
Well that depends on the audience. I think on this forum it is good to have these differing points of view thrown out there.
JS
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| john skarie - 6/24/2008 11:25 AM
Lambeau if the answer was that simple than every muskie fishermen in the midwest would already be a member of MI.
The reality of the situation is people find it much easier to come up with excuses why they don't need to be involved than care about the reasons why they should be.
JS
So here are the core issues as we see them, right?
1. People don't care
2. People are lazy
3. People aren't willing to act if they have nothing to gain
So we need to feed their egos a bit, make them feel important, and show them how their contribution benefits them? Lambeau, you're a shrink. How do you make something that requires time, money, and effort appeal to someone who is inherently selfish?
"Muskies Inc., It's all about you!!" ????
Maybe we are being a bit jaded, and that people just don't understand the benefit, as mentioned above. Perhaps we need to be more clear on WHY people would want to join?
Edited by esoxaddict 6/24/2008 12:33 PM
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| John:
Sorry that I misunderstood you. From what I read, you identified a certain group of anglers who you described as 'definitely spoiled", "selfish" and "thankless", and said that you "used to be cordial" with them, but not anymore. I didn't say that you were rude, but rather that your post might sound that way. You've clarified, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Edited by Matt DeVos 6/24/2008 12:41 PM
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| Lambeau if the answer was that simple than every muskie fishermen in the midwest would already be a member of MI.
The reality of the situation is people find it much easier to come up with excuses why they don't need to be involved than care about the reasons why they should be.
well, there's two ways to look at the question of people's level of involvement in clubs or in supporting issues through emails, donations, etc.
1) the problem is with them: they're coming up with excuses, they're lazy, etc.
2) the problem is with us: we haven't effectively motivated them to get involved in things, we haven't done a good enough job to inspire them to action. (not that we haven't tried, just that we've been ineffective.)
if you believe the first perspective, then it's hopeless because it's characterological and nothing can be done to change those traits in people.
i prefer the second perspective, and social research as well as success by organizations who do it right shows this to be true. it's hard to accept this, but doing so is a first step towards doing things differently and being more effective. before deciding what we "know" to be true, looking around at how others who are successful do it is a good idea.
So here are the core issues as we see them, right?
1. People don't care
2. People are lazy
3. People aren't willing to act if they have nothing to gain
NO! those are false premises that will lead us to dead ends.
people DO care.
people ARE willing to work hard.
people ARE willing to act to make change.
if we want to access people's time and talents, we need to start by believing in their capacity to get involved, not by calling them lazy or uncaring!
How do you make something that requires time, money, and effort appeal to someone who is inherently selfish?
look at the "MS Walks" or the "AIDS Rides"...these are issues that directly touch very few people, but tons of people show up every year to raise money and get involved. how do these organizations accomplish that?
we're talking about issues that do directly impact our targeted audience. how might we accomplish it?
could the same techniques be useful?
to be effective, define it as a marketing and communication issue rather than a problem with your target audience...
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| Great post, Mike. Very well said. | |
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My bad Matt; I did use the term "cordial"in my post.
Sorry about that, I can see where you coming from. I didn't represent my meaning very well there.
I should have just said I'm more tight lipped now when it comes to fishing info.
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Location: Roscoe IL | Note to self.
Do I just hope that the fishery will be the same or better for my kids?
What can I do to protect/improve the fishery for the futrue?
Do I care?
Can I do anything?
I read Treats post so fast the first time & responded so quick that I missed some things he was trying to get across..
I like Hookers comments about other clubs. I hear more complaints about MI & how the magazine is a waste of $. I happen to agree on that point, but what other clubs are out there trying to make things better?
Sell some screws dude! It's slow here!!!!!
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Location: Grinnell, Iowa | Very informative and interesting arguments on both sides.
All of this has got me thinking. I slay litterally hundreds of crappie slabs through the ice every winter that end up in my freezer and then in my belly; and yet I have never put forth a single ounce of effort towards preserving the crappie fisheries. I know it's not the same. Or is it????? | |
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In all fairness, you don't have people spreading the word how people who participate in MS walks etc. are arrogant and elitist.
There is a ton of rhetoric out there being told to people who have never been involed in Muskies Inc. like that.
It's pretty easy to decide not to be involved before even trying it for yourself when you hear even a few opinions like that.
I think it would be pretty interesting to see how many people would send an e-mail for a chance at winning a DBL Cowgirl as compared to how many sent in opinions to the DNR this spring when asked to.
That may prove the lazy point a little?
JS
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| That's exactly what I was getting at, Mike. As I said in my post above - those are the problems "AS WE SEE THEM", and perhaps the REAL problem is that people just don't understand WHY they would want to join. That's on US as members for not communicating effectively what muskies inc. is all about. The bowling shirt comment, the comment from the poster who said all he hears is about the roadblocks to getting things done, And the comments of those who DO join who often feel like their efforts and money will be wasted...
We like to THINK it's because people don't WANT to do anything, but isn't it really more that they don't know what to do, why they should do it, or what it's going to accomplish???
Maybe it's the way Muskies inc markets itself, and the way the membership represents the organization. In short, it's not THEM, it's US, isn't it? You can't blame someone for being apathetic to your cause when they aren't sure what it is or if they can make a difference.
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| john skarie - 6/24/2008 2:17 PM
In all fairness, you don't have people spreading the word how people who participate in MS walks etc. are arrogant and elitist.
There is a ton of rhetoric out there being told to people who have never been involed in Muskies Inc. like that.
It's pretty easy to decide not to be involved before even trying it for yourself when you hear even a few opinions like that.
I think it would be pretty interesting to see how many people would send an e-mail for a chance at winning a DBL Cowgirl as compared to how many sent in opinions to the DNR this spring when asked to.
That may prove the lazy point a little?
JS
Ack, I agree with Skarie again...
Well, except the lazy part. I believe that example speaks more to the "what do I get for my efforts" mentality. And that's where muskies inc. could do better in recruitment of new membership and getting people more involved -- why do I want to be a part of this? Why do I want to send that check or go to that banquet, or fish that fundraiser?? When the benefits aren't clearly outlined, when people don't feel like they are important, like they can make a difference, or they just don't plain know why they would WANT to do something, you aren't going to get them to do it. The MS walks are actually a decent example -- its work and time, but people know what MS is. They know what it can do, they know that what they are doing can help the medical community treat and maybe even cure people in the future. It's a sacrafice people are willing to make because they believe they are doing some good, and that their efforts aren't being wasted.
Not that you can make a direct comparison to muskie fishing, but it brings up a valid point -- people in and outside of muskies inc just don't feel the results are worth the effort. And when that effort can be little more that a few bucks here and there and a few hours of your time once a month, and people STILL don't want to do it? There's something wrong. | |
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| Jerry Lewis!
That's the answer to MI's problems, they just need to hire him and have a telethon or someother celebrity... might be a good one for Alec Baldwin.
Mitta Wooley... Mitta Wooley!
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There seems to be a lot of assumption the people aren't inolved because of reasons outside of their own "apathy" toward the cause.
Yet nobody can prove that if MI were the "perfect" club we'd have tons of members.
In the case of people participating in MS walks etc., what is the percentage of the population that does this?
In other words, the muskie fishermen population is relatively small. Is the percentage of people involved in "charity" type activities or groups a lot more in the general public or about the same as the percent involved in the muskie community?
As great as a cause as these other things are, they don't draw a majority of the population to thier cause.
I don't think the problem is that people don't know why they should be involved, or don't have a good avenue to do so.
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| Comparing the # of people involved in charity events to the number involved in MI is not a good one. Apples to Oranges. One saves lives, the other allows people to fish for a sport fish.
If you want to go there I could make the case that you are "being selfish" for not participating in every event that comes along (Relay for Life, Jump Rope for Heart, etc, etc). You never know when you are going to come down with some sort of illness. If you did not support the cause to further the research to find the cure, should you be able to take advantage of the findings funded by the time and effort I have given to these causes?
Edited by muskydeceiver 6/24/2008 4:59 PM
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| I'm not sure if anyone ever looked for or asked for a pat on the back or any recognition for their efforts to the resource, This is bigger than any one man or woman's interests or efforts.
The MI Chapter I belong to I would never consider a "Club", we are a "Conservation Organization", we are less concerned for the most part with the fish we put in the boat than the availability of opportunities for us and others to catch fish and have clean healthy water.
We work closely with the DNR and the MMA to assure those opportunities will exist, we have a large percentage of member involvement due to this mission, I'm humbled by their efforts and dedication to something that some would see fit to destroy and I'm a better man for knowing them and that's not B.S.
As we all know these times are very difficult, especially the financial aspect, I don't think anyone would expect a person to sacrifice the food on the table or your children's welfare for a ticket or anything associated for that matter.
Whats happening in MN will effect all of you no matter where you live or fish, Muskies are being used by a more effective, better connected group of a few men than ever before as a way to force legislation and overall fish management.
They are preaching to the masses that "Too many lakes are stocked and about the cost of raising these fish that are a recyclable resource unlike meat fish stocking for Pike and Walleye.
You need to decide no matter how you feel about Muskies Inc, what the fishery means to you and whats needed to maintain and grow our fishery.
Right now Muskies Inc, MMA and some individuals that refuse to hold membership in MI whom I respect greatly are working toward providing "ALL" those who fish in MN with a greater opportunity for Muskie, Pike and all species.
Ive never had a problem with those that don't support MI, that's their choice, I to refused to support it for many years till I saw some good changes and met some of the best conservation minded men on the planet that will dedicate 99% of their energy and time so we can have something better, their influence is seen every time you launch a boat at a landing that may never have existed or landed the fish of a lifetime that would have never been stocked without that dedication.
This is bigger than MI or any other group or fisherman, its time we work together and reap the rewards tomorrow, if you believe that you can make a difference you can and will, this is not a game or a joke to those that are trying to destroy your fishery.
We can work at fixing MI or creating another organization after we have secured our possibility to have that opportunity to fish, its in serous jeopardy as I post this, I'm not inflating the facts or distorting the reality, these guys are not going to stop till you are back to the natural lakes and they have the ability to spear them.
Then they will find other representation in WI, IL, IN, OH, IA to do the same they have done here, we need to fight them now, together, and show the public the truth about Muskies and the benefits to having some large Pike.
We're in this as one or we are in trouble.
In Solidarity
John Underhill
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| John,
Not to knitpick or be a jerk, but didn't you recently involve yourself with a long and drawn out discussion on the next bite's website about starting a new, NON-MI club to do the things that you didn't believe MI was doing? The crew of people that participated in this discussion had a long list of beefs with MI for being 'too many things for too many people' and that a better, more muskie conservation focused group was needed? | |
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| i think Shawn and John's topic is not specific to Muskies Inc or any other club or organization, and in some ways discussion about whether or not Muskies Inc is the "right" organization is a distraction from more immediate and important issues relating to long-range support and expansion of the muskie fishery in Minnesota.
John's last post speaks to this very eloquently; let's give him the latitude to have separate opinions voiced elsewhere about Muskies Inc., and respond to his point that all muskie fishermen have a stake in what happens in MN.
club members are a good place to start, but the issues impact muskie fishermen, not just those who choose to be club members.
in WI we face the same thing every year with the spring hearings and low attendance/involvement by muskie fishermen to "vote their sport", both club members and non-members.
there are well-organized groups working to erode muskie fishing in what is arguably the best fishery on the planet.
the question is how do you mobilize _muskie fishermen_ to get involved?
In the case of people participating in MS walks etc., what is the percentage of the population that does this?
i suggest a better question is: "why does _anyone_ do this?" especially people who aren't personally impacted by the issue (MS, donating blood, AIDS, cancer, whatever...).
what gets people to participate in these activities?
it might be apples/oranges to compare these issues, but i suggest that their successful techniques (they raise a ton of money, wield political influence, etc.) for attracting and involving people are universal and can be applied with equal success to any issue, including fishing.
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| My issues were with the International office and the way they were approaching conservation issues and the Magazine, the local MI Chapters in MN are not the issue in anyway, these men and women are working very hard to make their chapters something to be proud of.
Muskies Inc International office has got to center themselves around Conservation as DU, NWTF, TU or their like do if they want to grow and make a solid impact on the availability and health of the resource.
Ive been moderately satisfied with the improvements Ive seen so far and very happy with the change in direction of the magazine so far, the last few issues were great focusing on the efforts of the chapters and C&R.
If I sat by quietly and said oh well there goes MI down the toilette without being critical of their mistakes in my view, I would also not be the guy complaining later.
MI is the greatest thing to ever happen to muskies in North America and I would love to see its expansion and it regain a foothold in MN and all of our states capitols, that is where the hard work begins and that's how we can help lay the brickwork for tomorrow.
If it takes critical action or ideas to accomplish this then so be it, if their were another Conservation Group for Muskies and Pike I would be a proud member of them as well.
I hope this clarifies my stance that I tried to make apparent on TNB but I'm often misunderstood  | |
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Location: Owatonna,MN | Well put John. Thanks Lambeau, for making his point. This has nothing to do with MI. It is about Muskies in Minnesota. The fact is there is a group of people in Minnesota who don't want any more Muskies stocked. Period. Never.Say it again. Never. Where do you think the fisherie would be in 10 years if there was no more Muskie management?? For the people who say they can't afford to contribute, I can't either (financially that is) Get involved with emails,letters, phone calls, etc. The threat is real. The threat is now. There are over 100,000 muskie fishermen in Minnesota alone, yet we can't get enough support to defeat 15,000 spear fishermen??? Thats pathetic.
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I agree with your sentiments Lambeau, the better question is "why do people participate".
I guess my point was even with a cause as noble and worthy as MS walks and Aids issues you still don't get most people to become active.
Even with the issues spelled out and with a presentable course of action, how do we get the majority of muskie anglers to stand up and be heard?
We're gonna have to figure that one out real quick.
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| lambeau - 6/24/2008 6:37 PM
.....
there are well-organized groups working to erode muskie fishing in what is arguably the best fishery on the planet.
the question is how do you mobilize _muskie fishermen_ to get involved?
.....
In case anyone missed the point Lambeau made above, there it is again.
Speaking for myself, I tend to look at those groups as sort of a fringe, faling to realize at times that WE are the fringe ourselves. Muskie fishing is but a small part of fishing, which is a small part of outdoor "sports" which is a small part of MN's tourism economy, which is a small part of...
Apparently those groups really are a threat to our fisheries. WHY??
Why are they more organized? Is not having muskies more important to them than having muskies is to us?
Are our egos and the divisions we create amongst ourselves our worst enemy?
I think to start with we need to realize that we're all in this together no matter who we are and where we're from. We need to stop making enemies out of each other. We are ALL muskie fishermen, and when something comes up that has the potential to harm muskie fishing, we MUST speak with one voice. In order to do that, we MUST first put aside our differences. I am willing to do that. Are you? | |
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Location: Forest Lake Minnesota | I don't think any muskie fisherman can be spoiled till you can go out any day and catch a fish as easy as if it were a bass or sunfish. This sport takes dedication and time. But I also believe that if you have more than 50 muskie baits than you can afford the 35.00 a year to be in Muskies Inc. just to support the muskie fishery even if you never attend a meeting, and don't care for some of there views. Open up your wallet you cheepskates. by the way i am a member of the North Metro chapter, I sell on average 75 raffle tickets every year and go to the winter meetings.
Good Luck,
Dave | |
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Location: Roscoe IL | fishermuskie - 6/25/2008 12:36 PM
This sport takes dedication and time. But I also believe that if you have more than 50 muskie baits than you can afford the 35.00 a year to be in Muskies Inc. just to support the muskie fishery even if you never attend a meeting, and don't care for some of there views. Open up your wallet you cheepskates. by the way i am a member of the North Metro chapter, I sell on average 75 raffle tickets every year and go to the winter meetings.
Good Luck,
Dave
This is the crap that turns people off & drives them away from joining any club or donating...
Good for you Dave, do what you want with your money & leave me & mine alone! I donate to United Way every week! | |
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Location: Lebanon,Mo | Lets not forget the simple things we have today also, besides all the lakes that are stocked,clubs,and everyone that is involved in our sport.Look at our technology we now have.....The boats,gps,depthfinders that tell us what to do,high tech rods&reels,out of this world baits,even trolling books to tell us how deep were going.None of this stuff was around years ago.Some people take to many things for granted.I just enjoy being out there and maybe trying to make things work.I do what i can for our local club, trying to teach somebody new to the sport or donating items that will help support our fisheries. | |
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Are muskie fishermen today spoiled?????