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Posts: 35
| I am going on a trip this year with a guide and was wondering what is customary for tipping your guide?
D |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | I usually do 10%, more if I feel the guide went above and beyond his duties or if we had an amazing day on the water. |
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Posts: 2024
| I agree with Brian. Try running a search on here about this topic. I know there was discussion about this in the past. |
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Posts: 281
Location: ROckford IL | I feel that if you catch fish you should tip em good, no fish no tip |
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Posts: 82
| Last year, my buddies and I went walleye fishing on Lake Erie. We brought home about 30# of walleye. We tipped $3 each, so about a $30 tip. |
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Posts: 1295
Location: WI | Bigman - 5/18/2008 2:53 PM
I feel that if you catch fish you should tip em good, no fish no tip
I'm not getting a guide to catch fish, I'm getting one to speed up my learning curve on the water I'm fishing. |
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I always tell the guide my goal in that day's fishing (a shot at a fish, a shot at a good fish, learn a lake, etc) and then I tip him based on that goal. I generally tip 15% and if I achieve my goal he gets 15% if I don't he gets less but if he overachieves he gets more. I given tips as high as $100 on a great day and given nothing on others.
Shane |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | I agree with Shane. 15% is a good tip and if the guide does a great job he gets more, but if not he gets less. I dont go into a trip with a set amount that the guide will get. I decide at the end of the day.
Peter |
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Posts: 72
| I agree with Shane 15% is a good starting point. For a guided fishing trip per day fee of $300.00 when we've caught no fish I've tipped $50.00 Once many years ago I spend the day fishing for Tarpon and I tipped $100.00 for that trip. Most of all I always make the following comment to the guide when the day is over. I thank them for showing me there world. |
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Posts: 1270
| Generally in the service industry you tip the employees of the business and you do not tip the owners of the business. Who own's these guide businesses?
The owner of a business is the one who set's the rates and if they want more money then they can charge more. |
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| so if the owner of a bar, is the bartender as well, you don't tip? |
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| Reelman, you are not very appreciative of what a person can/would do for you are you? You tip the people that do the work for you.
You tip the waitress/waiter, not the cook, bus boy or owner.
You tip the the person pumping the gas if you go to a full service station, not the in-side cashier or owner.
You tip the parking attendant at a full service lot, not the owner of the owner unless they are the ones parking the cars.
You tip the bell boy for taking your bags, not the desk clerk.
You tip the taxi driver, not the owner of the company, unless they are the ones driving.
You tip a guide, because they do the work for you whether they own the business or not.
You tip a captain and mate as they both are working for you, but you may tip one more than another; even if the captain owns the business.
It is common courtesy to show your appreciation for the work that people have done for you. If they did nothing, then pay them nothing extra other than what the normal rate is for what ever you are doing.
As far as how much to tip a guide, 10% on the low end to 25% or more on the high end.
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| If you do not think that they deserve a tip, it is more of a slap in the face to tip a guide $1 or $5 than to not tip at all. You have at least let them know that you acknowledged them and remembered the tip, but that they were not worth much at all.
Tip a bad waitress a quarter ($.25) and see what they say. |
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Posts: 82
| I'm sorry, but I think it is just plain rude not to tip. I have had words with my friends if we go out to eat and they don't tip, or just leave change. A waitress has to be terrible for me not to leave a tip. I have left a very small tip if the waitress is real bad just to let her know her service was bad. |
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| If you don't tip, I would advise not eating in that restaurant or ones in that area. The industry is close knit and they do exchange information. Leaving a super small tip is pretty much just classless. If you have a bad experience speak to the manager or the server themselves. See what the deal is and it will usually workout great for everyone. However you really don't want to be labeled as the guy or family that does not tip. Every place will know it, nobody will want to serve you, and you will forever receive bad service. Who wants to be known in a town as the cheap ".....". I think the musky industry is small as well. Also with the internet, you might end up with guides not wanting to book you or only giving 100% instead of going above and beyond...Your reputation should mean something to you...tipping is a good way to keep it....Ben |
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Posts: 1270
| BenR, So you are saying that a guide might not give his all because of reading something on the internet? If that's the case then they aren't much of a guide.
My point is that the guide is the one that set the price of there trip. If they feel that they are worth $500 per day then they should charge $500 and not charge $450 and hope for a $50 tip. A waitress gets paid very little with the assumption that they will make it up in tips.
I think I tip very well at restaraunts and VERY, VERY good on my guided hunting and fishing trips but think that the whole tipping a guide thing is rediculous. |
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| Not reading it on the internet. They speak to each other and we make ourselves more well known because of the internet. So if one guide lets another one know of the experience they had with a person....I am just saying it is a small community, and the internet makes it much smaller...Ben |
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Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois | Leaving a small tip or no tip at all is a poor means to communicate that service was bad. If the service was poor to the point you felt no tip is warented, you are better served to comment to the server or management. At least you have offered feedback so that improvements can be made. Poor service can be the result of many things: poor training, poor or under staffing, someone working multip shifts, etc... How is a server to know that a small tip (or no tip) implies poor service. It may be that the partron was cheap, or maybe they were short on cash and could not afford a tip. I lew of not tipping, I have left a note for the server or the establishment letting them know if I was disastisfied and provided a # where they could contact me. This was done when I could not get the attention or time of the staff. |
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Posts: 299
Location: Ontario, California | My thoughts on this is when you go out the "standard" tip for a waitress is 15%. She takes your order, brings your food, and fills your Ice Tea. It probably equates out to about 5 - 10 minutes of work total.
You hire a guide... he takes you out and teaches you new things (if you are paying attention). Hopefully he entertains you, puts you in an "opportunity" to catch an elusive fish and works for YOU for about 10 hours. If you don't think that equates out to a 15% tip you should rethink what you are doing. To base it on whether you catch fish or not... you are going about it the wrong way. He has no control over the weather or for that matter the feeding habits and attitude of the fish that day.
I ran a charter boat for a number of years. If I was asked what a standard tip was I would simply ask what they tip a waitress (most would say 15%). I gave them the the same example I gave above and told them it was up to them. If they felt they didn't get the service... don't feel obligated to tip. |
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Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois | I have only hired a guide twice, both times were when I was just getting into muskie fishing. At that time, I did not understand or know that tipping a guide was expected or warrented. Had I known, I probably would not have tipped these guides because the services provided barely lived up to the promises made by the guide. I paid the as-advertised price.
I had not been exposed to the idea of tipping a guide until I had read this and other related forums. Guides set their own asking price based on their skill, costs and what the market will bare. They are not working for sub-minimum wages and they are not working within an industry where income is largely generated through tips (such as waiters, bell-hops, ect.). As a result of this thread, if I ever hire a guide again, I will be more open to tipping but I would expect the services provided to go above or beyond what is advertised.
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | I'm sorry, but I feel comparing tipping with guides and waiters/waitresses is pointless. As pointed out above, most guides are running their own show, the 300+$ or whatever they get per trip is going into their pocket, not their bosses. A waiter makes nothing on hourly salary, his income is your tip, that's it.
Some of the rationale used here isn't reflecting the above logic. |
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I was a bartended for 6 years part-time.
The purpose of a tip is to reward good and or prompt service.
Believe me, anyone who is going to make it in the service industry will learn real fast how to earn tips, and not to just expect them.
Don't be afraid to leave a small tip to show you were not impresssed with the service.
I never feel obligated to tip, but tip very well when it is deserved.
JS |
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Posts: 8824
| Muskie fishing is a very small world. Before you neglect to tip your guide, take a moment to think about how far that tip (or lack of) just might go.
There have been times when I didn't tip. Once I just plain forgot (duh) and a few times I was just plain broke and didn't have the money (duh again)... It's worth repeating: Muskie fishing is a very small world. |
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| Never hired a guide and most likely never will. But if I did, he/she would definatley get a tip. |
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Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois | Addict, what point are you trying to make? You state muskie fishing is a small world and that you have forgotten to tip in the past. Stopping to think how far that tip would go: from my wallet to the guides... thats about it.... |
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Posts: 457
| Musky Brian - 5/19/2008 12:03 PM
I'm sorry, but I feel comparing tipping with guides and waiters/waitresses is pointless. As pointed out above, most guides are running their own show, the 300+$ or whatever they get per trip is going into their pocket, not their bosses. A waiter makes nothing on hourly salary, his income is your tip, that's it.
Some of the rationale used here isn't reflecting the above logic.
That $300 from a guides fee is his gas, insurance, licensing, boat payment... It doesn't go in his "pocket" in 99% of the cases. |
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Posts: 1270
| Waiters are taxed on the "expected tips". Do guides report there tips to the IRS on there taxes?
Like I said before I think I tip waiters pretty good but there was one time when I took about 12 guys out to dinner on a business dinner. The waiter not only gave the worst service I have ever had but he was also rude and arrogant. I'm not just talking a little - this guy was BAD! He would not get us drinks because he was there to take our dinner order, not order drinks at that time, he said he would come back for a drink order later which he never did. We had to go to the bar 3 times during the meal to order drinks. Then he had the gall to right his suggestion for his tip on the bill which amounted to about 40%! The bill came to over $600 and I tipped him $.25, I think he got the point. I also spoke to his manager about it. |
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Posts: 8824
| AF Chief, the point I am trying to make is simple:
Muskie fishing is a very small world.
If you're going to hire one guide one time in your life, than I guess it doesn't matter if you tip them or not. But if you neglect to tip a guide, don't you think that other guides just might hear about that? And don't you think that if you hire that guide again, or someone that he knows personally (think small world again) that they might just figure you're not going to tip, and give you a little less bang for your buck?
Do you think that guide is going to make any extra effort, burn any extra gas, spend any extra time with you? Maybe take you to one of his better spots, or even lake that might not get fished all that much?
Maybe when you call next time, that guide (or one of his friends) might just say "you know what, I'm booked that day, sorry..."
The ony reason not to tip is if the service really sucked and the guy was a jerk. That's the message you're sending if you don't leave one. If the guide knows better, and really went out of his way for you that day, and you don't tip? Well that sends the message that you're either cheap, ignorant, you don't know any better, or you're a jerk. Like I said -- muskie fishing is a small world. Is that the message you really want to be sending? |
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Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois | I see your point and I didn't mean to be objectionable. I just don't think that the community is that small where word of mouth will travel as suggested. Now if a guide has a repeat client who has a history of not tiping, that same guide could choose not to book that client. I don't think guides have the time or resources to track one patron for not tipping to the point that they would notify other guides. If so, I think the instances would be rare and would probably be based on some other aspect - such as being a poor client. Now I do think word of mouth will take care of the people who are jerks and treat their guides poorly. A person falling into this category would have to hire a heck of a lot of guides before the community was aware of the problem. There is such as a thing as a bad customer. And I do not believe in the old saying that "the customer is always right..." Are there any guides out there who would intentionally not accept a client who failed to tip in the past?
Edited by AFChief 5/19/2008 3:15 PM
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Posts: 1270
| addict, You are right that musky fishing is a small community and word gets around fast. But it gets around even faster when a guide "holds out" on a client and doesn't put all his effort into providing a good day. A guide should give 100% regardless of what the tip will be at the end of the day. Anything else would be very unprofessional of him. |
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Posts: 8824
| I guess all I'm trying to say is that there are good clients and bad clients, like AF Chief said. And I believe not tipping is a good way to score a seat in the "bad client" section. Not that tipping is much help if you're a jerk, but at east you've got something going for 'ya.
I know I've heard a few stories told at the expense of previous clients, and I sure wouldn't want to be those guys.
Man, there's a story I'm dying to tell here, but I just can't do it!! 
Just for fun, next time you hire a guide, ask him to tell some "worst client you ever had" stories. Really opens your eyes to a few things! |
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Posts: 341
| I always tip my guides, fish in the boat or not. Ocean charter guides keep most of the meat as a tip to sell later, so why would a fresh water guide expect anything differantly? The more I tip the more honey holes I learn, that's my motovation, win win.
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| the whole scene is a two-way street. i don't see guides and their fees being tied to the tipping process ... maybe i'm naive and maybe that's just me but the current rate is already a pretty big number and if it wasn't the guy wouldn't be doing it in the first place.
the restaurant business is a totally different game than musky-guiding imo. that waiter is there making 70% of his money on tips and if you don't tip at all then he/she wasted their time and essentially worked for free for you (a far-cry from a 350 dollar guided day on the water). your stiffing him regardless was a direct slam on anything he might have done right and then you have to see the situation for what it might have been in his eyes ... he may have been put on too many tables, the bar may have affected him on getting his orders, there might have been something going on in the kitchen .... essentially, your problem was with the watier and instead of handling it directly with him ... you avoided the conflict of your expectations and his situation and then screwed him over. if he knew there was a quarter in it for him he would rather have seen the table left open or loaded with another group that might have dealt with the situation differently ...
agree totally with maxey ... you feel justified in your own mind and that's about it. if i were one of your clients at the table knowing what happened i'd probably think you could treat me in the same way and look elsewhere for a supplier.
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Posts: 72
| Anyone care to guess how much insurance is for a guide? |
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| MO,
No idea, what does it cost a guide for insurance?
J |
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Posts: 1270
| MO, I'm just guessing here but I would bet that it's less than insurance for a electriction or plumber and I don't often hear about people tipping them. Have you seen malpractice insurance rates for Dr. and nurses lately? It would make your guide insurance pale in comparison and I don't ever hear of those guys being tipped.
Insurance is a part of the cost to do business. |
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| usually people avoid direct conflict and the need to change a situation while it's happening. if you are able to put the conflict out there professionally and directly ... usually you'll get a response worth your while. my suggestion would be to approach the guy directly and give him the choice to either get a manager to assist or not. if he chooses not you just approach the manager and give him your expectations ... you should get some options then and decide what you want to do about it. that will also show your customer that you're a good problem-solver and solid business guy.
you are in a business situation and it's an opportunity to show your customer how you handle conflict. me ... as a customer, i'm all eyes and ears watching you and what you're doing and how you're handling the situation because it's a mirror to how you'll handle a problem related to me as a customer.
cheaping the guy and not addressing the situation just gave the order to the other guy. |
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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | Funny story ben,I know of a few pizza delivery guys who would wait to deliver the pizza's last or on the way back to the pizza shop so you get a cold pizza or half to wait longer because they didnt tip or tiped lousy. |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | When you ask the question "how much is insurence for a guide" I think that is a very good question, but you also have to look at what kind of insurence. If he is a full time guide I would think that you are looking at health, auto, boat, and guiding insurence. This question was brought up a while ago and I believe that most of the guides said that they never expected a tip, but it was always greatly appreciated. I think if you look at all of the things that a guide has to pay for with all of the insurences, boat and auto payments, no retirement plan like many of us have with our jobs, it is a good paying job when you look at just the figure of $350, but that has to cover a lot of bills.
Peter |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | I know of guides who only charge $250 a day... yet somehow they can still make a living. When some guides charge $400 dollars a day. Now yes, these prices are probably reflective on how much gear the guide has, a guide that thinks he needs the newest equipment, lures, boat, truck, etc. will defiantly have a lot more expenses, but do any of those things help the customer? Many of you said that you hire a guide to learn the lake and techniques, not to ride around in the fanciest equipment and see how fast you can go or have a whole arsenal of lures to use. Also you shouldn't feel obligated to tip, if you hired a lousy guide and learned absolutely nothing except to never hire him again.
Edited by DEMolishedyou 5/19/2008 8:11 PM
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| If I were to get guide, I wouldn't tip him. They already get a good wage for there work...I think its rediculous, especially when I here of some guides getting pissed b/c they didn't get tipped. If they believe they deserve more, they should charge more!
Fishing Charters are different, when you tip, most times it goes to the first mate. Who's wage is based on tips...In the service industry, they rely on tips. When I tip a bartender who might be a owner, I usually get stonger drinks and usually a free drink (something he paid for). So if someone that tips a guide, does he get a free bait or reel / rod combo? Maybe a bait and if the client catches a fish, its what he is being paid to do! It certainly isn't the guides fish! Just my thoughts, I usually tip well, epsecially for good service. These people in the service industry rely on tips to make a living. Guides make 250 plus, and thats usually not for a full 8 hours. Thats pretty good money for alot of people! |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | First, I charge more than $250 a day. Second, I don't care if you tip me or not, but I'll sure try to earn your friendship and respect for a day of hard work keeping my client happy on the water, just like most Guides I know. |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | Also I do believe in tipping as long as the service is good. But I have a question for all these different rates different guides charge, why would you base your tip on a percentage of the fee; like 15-20%? The guide who is charging more to begin with will end up making more in the tip also while the guide with a smaller fee, will inevitably be rewarded with a smaller tip if you base your tips off a certain percentage. |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm not sure how clients decide on the tip. I have received tips from $5 to $1500.00 over the years, but NEVER 'expect' one. |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "that waiter is there making 70% of his money on tips and if you don't tip at all then he/she wasted their time and essentially worked for free for you"
Actually for waitpersons, and many other occupations where tipping is deemed customary, they would be paying $$ to wait on you. They are taxed on 10% of gross receipts they have waited on, based on the expectation they will receive at least a 10% tip. They must keep track or all tips received and report anything above 10% as additional tip income. So if you tip nothing they are left paying tax on a 10% tip they never received!
Also occupations were tipping is expected are the ONLY ones not subject to minimum wage laws as it is assumed the tips are part of the wage. Most waitpersons are earning a GUARANTEED wage of only a couple bucks an hour. |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | At 90+% of places you also must tip out other members of staff..busboys, barback, bartenders, etc...4-5% is a typical lower end number
Which is why making this comparison to Musky guides is kinda justy plain silly, totally different ballgame |
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| I will say that I used to fish with a guide near Montreal that would not charge me anything except for gas money. We tipped him with rare lures, art work and other such gifts. Really wanted him to know how much we appreciated the trips...Ben |
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Posts: 8824
| $350/day SOUNDS like "good money" until you think about how much you have to invest in equipment, boat payment, truck payment, gas for the truck, gas for the boat, insurance, health insurance, etc. You don't have to have all the best gear, and a ton of lures. But you do have to have enough to properly outfit your clients, and allow for things getting lost, broken etc.
Probably a decent amount of money left over after all that. Until you remember that you're probably not booked 5 days a week all season, and you can't guide from November to May.
I've never guided, so I don't know for sure, but I've tried to do the math a bunch of times, and the best case number I came up with was about $25,000 in your pocket at the end of the year. That's enough for a young single guy, but if you're married and you want a house or you have any kids? Forget making a living guiding. |
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Posts: 1270
| addict, I agree at first glance $350 a day does sound like good money but like you said once you take out expenses you are not left with a whole lot. This is why I think that a guide needs to really sit down and figure out what it costs and what he needs to charge for a days fishing and not depend on tips for his profit margin.
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | First off, I also never expect a tip, but it is always appreciated.
I am of the opinion that most that hire me don't even realize that tipping is an option to be considered. I am just fine with people paying my fee and going on there way. If it is a first time customer, I won't even know if they are tipping or not until the end of the day. Their decision to tip or not is unknown to me until after the Tuffy is on the trailer and headed home. It can not possibly change the quality of service or the effort I put into their trip because I do not know until they are done.
Secondly, I would much rather receive return bookings than a tip. I would rather have a repeat booking than an extra $50 at the end of any day. If you book me again, you are a repeat customer, and I never want to lose those, so again tip or not, you will get the best service I can offer. Repeat customers that tip well.....well those are the guys you bend over backwards for at nearly any request.
Your decision to tip or not is completely up to you. Do what you feel is right, either way, I am going to do anything I can to put you on fish. |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I was going to add a note to the bottom of my business cards, "groups of one or more will be charged a 15% gratuity", kind of like what is seen on menus. Or maybe a $50.00 fuel surcharge per day.
Probably not, that would get as old as this thread in a hurry.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | reelman - 5/19/2008 3:38 PM
addict, You are right that musky fishing is a small community and word gets around fast. But it gets around even faster when a guide "holds out" on a client and doesn't put all his effort into providing a good day. A guide should give 100% regardless of what the tip will be at the end of the day. Anything else would be very unprofessional of him.
Exactly. I don't think there are many out there that wouldn't give 100%. If they didn't then they probably aren't doing so well. We all have bad days at one time or another so perhaps that would be a reason, but I know that all of the guides that I know and talk to give 100% and don't expect a tip. Tips are cool when you get them, but if I have a client that tips or doesn't tip, I'm still going to give it my best to show them an awesome time and put them on fish.
I'm sure others will pipe in from the guide community, but I guide because I absolutely love being on the water and teaching others how to catch fish. I've loved it since I could walk and still to this day. No other reason than that. |
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Posts: 311
Location: Ontario | Best way to tip a guide is wait until he's a had a couple in the bar after the day, get ahold of one of the legs on the stool and give it a yank. Tipped Guide. |
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Posts: 344
Location: Musky Country | lmao,,,, good one Jbush |
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Posts: 633
Location: Bloomington, MN | Tipping has got me sent to the dog house too many times! I'm a firm believer that a server in a restaurant/bar should get at least 15% unless they are terrible, and I will never be returning. A fishing guide is totally different. I do a minimum of 15% unless they key my truck, and swear they never want me back in their boat (never has happened yet), or I don't fish a day that I have booked, in which I've paid the full cost of the day. Most guides lock in their rate almost a year prior to the date you hire them. Look what has happened to the price of fuel, insurance, boats, etc... Most fishing guides are doing it for the love of what they are doing. If you enjoy their company, and they are and/or appearing to try their gosh darndests to provide the best fishing on that given body of water at that time, give them the credit in at least of terms $$$. Calling your guide a few days prior to going out and asking if you need anything brought up (I've never gone down..Kentucky next year??) from our "Super Stores" is more of a "House" warming gift unless it is something in the nature of a crate of Opti Max oil or a Shimano Trinidad 16N, but always a nice touch to add to the beginning of an outing. Most high demand guides are on the water for at least 12 hours and don't have the time to run from Elephant Breath, XX to get the things they need at a drop of a hat. A phone call from you vs. them paying for UPS/FedX overnight would be appreciated. I ran out of 1st Wife happiness within 72 hours, and for all the tea in China, UPS Next Day Air couldn't deliver anymore, so stuff happens even to the most prepaired! Many years ago a friend fished with a "Premier" guide that was in high demand. The first day of the 4 days booked, they told him that they couldn't make day 4. The guide still charged them for the 4 days. If the guide decided not to do his normal guiding day even with his stand in-line "blah blah's muskie guide service" at the local sporting goods center, or couldn't get a booking I would understand, but he did get clients on that 4th day(being known booked after my friend's 2nd day from the same "Members Only" resort my friends were staying at). The unfortunate factor is that their last day trip with him after being LONG term "supposedely well liked "clients was filled with gut-rot. The reason for backing out on the 4th day was a family situation that the guide had known was legit for years. There is no such thing as the "Best" guide on the lake, maybe for a day or two, or even three, but for everyday of a season..no! Tip your guide with the thoughts of what you learned/experienced/ and, most importantly what you will experience on future trips if you decide to reserve on any more.
Clark ""If" out outlive my friend, I'm hopefully being willed an un-worn circa 1979 red satin Blah Blahtail, Blah Blahtail, Blah Blahtail jacket" Anderson |
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Posts: 1530
| being ob both sides of the coin here, did the guide do his best, was he all you expected. remember its all about many things before you even set foot on his boat.. 50 -100 bucks is appreciation for a fun trip. with good groups our 6 hour charters normally turned into 8 hours. most decent guides its not a job, its a life experience.. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Just to stir the pot.
I think as has been pointed out a number of times already the analogies between guides and waiters, bellhops, drivers and such is way off base, for the reasons given.
If a guide is charging between $250 and $500, that’s between $25/hour and $50/hour IF you get a 10 hour day. All the overhead and wages for the guide have to come out of that fee.
But consider this do you tip your plumbers, do you tip your electricians, do you tip your building contractor. If you higher a self employed plumber to come and plumb an addition to your house, should you expect less service the next time you hire him or her if you don’t give him a 15 to 20 percent tip on top of what was bid, for the job? How about an electrician, or the General contractor. I doubt it, it is far more likely that we will argue with them when they ask for more money because of last minute change WE came up with and had them do and they deserve.
The last guy I hired was self employed, bid the job and charged $25/hour plus materials for extras, about half of what I expected. He has a truck a trailer, and all the tools necessary to build a house from the foundation up, plus he has to carry liability insurance. Sounds similar to a guides expenses doesn’t it. O yea and one major difference, I doubt this guy takes his truck and trailer out for a long weekend of R&R or slips away with his tool box for an evening alone with a pile of lumber. On the other hand most guides would have all the same gear and equipment weather they guided or not, as most of the time it’s that love of fishing that gets them guiding in the first place.
My point being guides should charge what they feel is a fair fee for there time, effort and expenses and should not expect a tip. I also have no problem with a guide adjusting his rate to cover the cost of rising fuel prices, if warranted. For example if I want to learn Mille Lacs and I booked a trip last year a bump in fee could be warranted. If I want to learn a local little puddle, and the trip to the lake is minimal and there is very little running while on the lake, a bump may not be warranted.
That being said the few time I have hired a guide I tipped. The first time I didn’t because I had NO CLUE that you where supposed to, it never even crossed my mind. It definitely should be performance based though. Not just fish in the boat, but over all fulfillment of the job. I consider it more of a bonus than a tip.
Just my opinions, have at them.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike,
The difference is basically in the product offered.
A carpenter builds a deck, and has no desire to educate or entertain. A plumber fixes my pipes, most days I don't even want to talk to the person and the feeling I'm sure is mutual. I hire an outfitter or guide, and I'm expecting to be 'made comfortable', be educated, entertained, and catch some fish in the process; I want the guy to take me to his favorite eating establishment for lunch and enjoy that time as well, and I expect I'll be treated as a valued client throughout the day.
A guide is a social director, educator, story teller, comedian, cheerleader, and above all entertainer. We tip folks like that because we 'grade' the performance given, and base the tip on that grade. Social thing, it doesn't have to make sense when compared to a contractor.
If the guy building your deck stopped working and asked you to come on over to his rig and learn the fine points of hammer selection for the job, told you 4 jokes in the process, and showed you his entire tool box describing the use of each item contained, you'd think he'd lost his marbles. If Dave Dorazio asked me, however, to look into his tacklebox, and described the use of why and when of each lure therein for July on the Chip.... |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I spoke with a customer last night who stated his buddy tipped a Minnesota guide with a LCX-114 Lowrance. That's a $2,000.00 tip. I said, "what the hell did he do that for?". Apparently the guide put him on a multiple 50" fish in a day.
Hell, I've had people try to give me a tip at Gander for helping them out.
If people feel as though they're getting more out of what they're paying for, then they tip. It's like saying, "Thanks for going above and beyond"
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Tip my guides? Sheesh I didn't even know I was supposed to pay them.
Sorry guys, I'll try to make it up to ya somehow.
S.
Edited by sorenson 5/21/2008 9:51 PM
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Posts: 72
| I think the summer of 2008 we are going to see 1000's of fishing guide throw in the towel. I've already talked to several well known guide all over the country who say business is down 75-80% and the phones are not ringing. It's hit the hunting guides worse. |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sorno,
I couldn't charge you a nickel. It would just be wrong. And then I'd have to pay you when I got out to Utah, and I can't afford your rates. |
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| "Mike,
The difference is basically in the product offered.
A carpenter builds a deck, and has no desire to educate or entertain. A plumber fixes my pipes, most days I don't even want to talk to the person and the feeling I'm sure is mutual. I hire an outfitter or guide, and I'm expecting to be 'made comfortable', be educated, entertained, and catch some fish in the process; I want the guy to take me to his favorite eating establishment for lunch and enjoy that time as well, and I expect I'll be treated as a valued client throughout the day.
A guide is a social director, educator, story teller, comedian, cheerleader, and above all entertainer. We tip folks like that because we 'grade' the performance given, and base the tip on that grade. Social thing, it doesn't have to make sense when compared to a contractor.
If the guy building your deck stopped working and asked you to come on over to his rig and learn the fine points of hammer selection for the job, told you 4 jokes in the process, and showed you his entire tool box describing the use of each item contained, you'd think he'd lost his marbles. If Dave Dorazio asked me, however, to look into his tacklebox, and described the use of why and when of each lure therein for July on the Chip...."
Your right Steve, different product, but shouldnt change tipping. When that plumber leaves your home you have a tangible product he has left you with...say the ability to flush your toilet instead of having the bowl fill up with s**t! The contactor has left you with a roof over your head etc etc etc
A guide's service is intangible in a way. You are "buying" an education be it for a given species of fish, a given body of water etc. THATS WHAT A PERSON IS PAYING FOR!!! Telling them about lure selection, what rods to use, structure to be fished etc.
So in that light comparing them really isnt all that far off.
Or maybe the more fair analogy then would be, do you tip your childrens school teachers??? If you sign up for a class at a community education type place do you tip the instructor after the last session?
It's my opinion the whole tipping custom with guides comes from the days when the majority of them were hired out through lodges/resorts. The lodge set the rate and paid the guide a wage out of that rate. They were basically employees of hte lodges that booked their trips. Much different situation than a self employed guide with the ability to set their own rates.
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "A carpenter builds a deck, and has no desire to educate or entertain. A plumber fixes my pipes, most days I don't even want to talk to the person and the feeling I'm sure is mutual. I hire an outfitter or guide, and I'm expecting to be 'made comfortable', be educated, entertained, and catch some fish in the process; I want the guy to take me to his favorite eating establishment for lunch and enjoy that time as well, and I expect I'll be treated as a valued client throughout the day."
Being in the trades, I cant tell you how much time I have wasted sitting and talking with homeowners and answering all their questions about why I am doing what I'm doing, how it's done and on and on. How many times I've had homeowners sit and watch every last thing I did, ask about what tools were needed to do the work, even had more than a few comment that after watching me they wouldn't need to hire the work done in the future.
Never once have I gotten a tip, not even to make up for the down time and lost productivity suffered from talking with and explaining things to homeowners. Anyone who wants to say a self employed contractor doesn't spend a good amount of time dealing with some of the very same things has never worked in that field! |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Castmaster,
Answering both your posts above:
'Never once have I gotten a tip, not even to make up for the down time and lost productivity suffered from talking with and explaining things to homeowners. Anyone who wants to say a self employed contractor doesn't spend a good amount of time dealing with some of the very same things has never worked in that field!'
I have worked in that field. Roofing, and building trusses, and some labor work when I was younger. Also was a Landscape construction foreman. Never got a tip, and didn't expect to. Never spent 8 to 10 hours a day in-close with my client at those jobs either and I sure didn't expect them to pick up a hammer and join in. The contact between clients in a boat and on a jobsite just isn't the same; the service contracted for is completely different.
I didn't say contractors don't talk to homeowners, I said they don't WANT to most times. If you don't see what a Guide does all day as different from fixing a drain pipe or building a deck or re-roofing a home, that's fine. I've done both for quite a few years I thought I'd share some perspective.
I feel you don't get tips as a contractor because you provide a service that isn't 'social', as I tried to describe above. If that's a bad deal, so be it, I don't get a tip when I sell an advertising contract or durable good, either. So what? That has nothing to do with Guiding.
You don't think a Guide deserves a tip....great! Don't pay one, and if you hired me, as I have said a couple times, I don't expect one. I've tipped contractors who did better than expected work on my place, probably because I've been in the position to know how good that feels to give, and to get. Point is, it's accepted practice to tip a service professional, which a Guide IS, and some will tip, others won't. Nothing wrong with either, IMHO. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I always tip a guide if he tries hard to put me on fish. As for the drop in business, lets face it, fishing is a "luxury" and with the way the cost of food, fuel, medical expenses, etc., have gone up in the last few years, something has to give.
RM |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | 25 bucks for a contractor is a very good rate. Most trades jobs and auto mechanics charge out around 60 bucks an hour. I would never expect to get a tip after changing out a furnace or air conditioner in a persons house, because I am not teaching that person how to do my job. As I said I believe in tiping a guide, but if he would just stand in the back of the boat and not say anything, he sure wouldnt get a tip. I hire a guide to teach and educate on how he fishes, or how to fish a spacific lake, and he does what I expect, he should be rewarded. Just my thoughts.
Peter |
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Posts: 1270
| To play Devils advocate for those of you saying that it is reasonable for a guide to tack on a fuel surcharge because of rising gas prices would you also expect a refund if you book a trip this year for next year and the gas prices go down? |
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| You might actually see that in many industries next year if gas prices do go down. They will not lower prices to what they were before, but service industries such as airlines probably will have some type of rebate if prices do come down... |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I just raised my base price. If the cost of fuel comes down, I'll drop my base price back accoridngly. If I book a day in advance, I usually take a 15% deposit, not the entire amount. |
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Posts: 56
Location: Appleton, WI | As business people, I would imagine that the basic fee for guiding is to cover all costs involved. Plus, some profit, of course. So, if you feel that you have received exceptional service, than do tip the person!
Conversly, if you have a poor experience, withhold that tip.
I like Steve's attitude that he does not expect it. That is someone who is true to the sport and educating others.
Happy fishing!
Lori |
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:31 AM
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| Ive been on a couple trips on Lake St Clair trolling we did very good one trip and only one fish the second time and i have to say the mate does alot of work cleaning weeds of the lines and changing the lures and i feel that the mate at least deserves a 10 % min. regardless if you do well or not. I cant speak for all the charter guys out on LSC but my two trips were with different charters and both of the mates worked thier tails off trying to put fish in the boat. On one trip we took it was rough out and the mate even stood behind my 75 yr old dad and and pretty much held him up while he reeled in his fish. I dont know how much a first mate gets paid for a trip but it cant be that much and i would have to beleive that hes working mostly for a tip. I tipped both those mates way over 10% as it was well deserved |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "Tip, don't tip. If you choose to not tip, just don't book that same guide again. You may not be pleased by the results next time."
It's kind of amusing to read the replies from the guides and then the non guides. Guys like EsoxAddict, with their inside scoop from their guide friends, seem to say that a guide will give a less than full effort if he isnt tipped, while the guides all say the effort is the same either way. Which is it???
Steve,
I apologize for my first post being as guest. I hadnt realized I wasnt signed in until after I posted, and forgot to add to my second post the previous one was mine as well.
I do agree that it isnt an exactly equal comparison between a self employed guide and a self employed tradesman, but IMHO it is a much closer analogy than to a waiter/waitress or bartender who is working for a wage of $2-$4 an hour in a lot of cases. I do get your "social" aspect to it and you might be right to a degree with that. I also think maybe it has a bit to do with the fact a guided fishing trip is a form of recreation while getting your roof fixed or leaky pipes fixed isnt a fun experience for most! People are a little looser when spending $$ on fun than on things they'd rather not spend $$ on. |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Castmaster,
I agree. I think most of the replies from Guides state reality...they need bookings, charge what they think is fair, and don't necessarily expect a tip. They appreciate those tips they do get, and if human nature is what it is, may work a bit harder the next time for that client to duly impress and 'pay it forward'. |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I don't understand this. . . .
"Tip, don't tip. If you choose to not tip, just don't book that same guide again. You may not be pleased by the results next time."
Are guides saying if I book them this summer and do not tip them not to book them next year because the service will not be of the same quality? I am buy no means even a part time guide, but when I do it does not matter if the people tipped me the last time or not, or have booked me for years and never tipped me, I am going to bust my butt to put them on fish every time.
I am hoping the guides on this board do not agree with the original statement. If so that is pretty sad.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 8824
| Cory, I don't think its that they will do a BAD job next time, just that they will be much more likely to go the extra mile if you do tip them. Are you saying that if you had a client that regularly tips you say $50, that you wouldn't try to take care of them a little better than the average client? Maybe give them an extra hour or two next time?? |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I think the whole tipping thing is being blown way out of proportion. Once again... I don't expect them, but when received, they are greatly appreciated.
As far as a non-tipper not getting my 100%, that is just plain ludicrous. Every client I book gets a total and complete effort from me. From everyone else's comments on here you make it sound like guides have a wealth of prospective clients to pick and chose from. That is not the way it works. In today's world it seems as if everyone that fishes is a guide and the guides are about to outnumber the clients. Giving less than a total effort and having "bad word of mouth" spreading about me and my guide business is not an option. Guide businesses are built on word of mouth, and nothing can kill it faster than having my name associated with poor service. I would rather not get a tip and have someone talk about what a great time they had in my boat than get a nominal tip and "bad press" if you will.
Again, tip if you want to, it will be appreciated, but if you don't I will not think less of you as a person or a client.
Edited by nwild 5/23/2008 11:17 AM
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I will fish clients the same way regardless of tips or no tips and most tell me when the day is over, not the other way around. Like I said though, I am not full time, which would make a difference. If I have something or somewhere I need to be I have to quit, and the client knows this prior to our trip, if not I fish. I have guided with groups of other guides that split the day, fish from 8 until noon, have lunch and meet us back for the 5-9 shift. I tell my guys if they want a break that's fine but I am going fishing anyways so if they want to fish the afternoon and then the evening that works too. I have even taken out other guides clients of the same group in the afternoon because my guys did not want to go. My charge???? Give me some money for gas and buy me a drink afterwards and we'll call it even.
The regular clients I have had for years book me for that reason, you want to start at 5:00 in the morning and fish until 11:00 that evening, no problem, and I count it as one day, not a day and a half. Most of the full time guides on the flowage start at 8:00 a.m., I am always trying to talk my clients into starting at least an hour early to hit active spots before the rest of the guides get out. Sorry for the ramble and back to the topic. Tipping has no bearing on how I fish or what I will do for the client - period.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | Yea, what Norm said!!!!!!!!!! Well put Norm.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Norm said it better than I. |
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:32 AM
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Well said Norm.
The thought of guides doing less for clients that didn't tip is nuts.
But the reality of a good tipping client is: Guides will go extra hours, maybe give the hot bait to the client at days end, rebooking that client at prime times and plenty more perks is a given. That is just buisness. Treat everyone as good as you can and everything will work out just fine. Clients are happy and so are the guides.
I will always give every thing I can for my clients. Word of mouth keeps my guide service growing every year. Guide prices do not matter to clients when they can book a guide they trust and can't wait to fish with each time they can. I just had to raise my prices this season to keep up with the costs. Most clients tip very well, some maybe just a small amount, but very few do not tip. I would bet the ones that don't tip don't realize it is normally done. Like contractors and car repair. I tip everyone who I feel worked extra hard for me, even contractors, garbage men, truck and car repair people, etc.
A tip is just a way to let the person know who much you appreciated the service you got from them.
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Posts: 72
| The guide that goes above and beyond will always have a strong client base. And these types of guides will survive even when times get tough. Nothing hurts a guide more than a client making negative comments. Word of mouth is the best advertising when it comes to a guide. |
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Posts: 311
Location: Ontario | We carry an average of $140k in baits and rods every trip and can't afford to drop $30 or $40 extra on a guide after the day if he does a good job?! I must be missing something.
Worst tipper I have ever had in my boat was a doctor and lawyer combo. I kid you not. The tip was $0 after doing what I always do, going above and beyond all day. Best tippers I ever had? Iowa corn farmers, Chicago beat cops, Minnesota used car salesman, and small electrical contractor from Michigan. I remember each very well, and it had nothing to do with money. Great guys. |
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| I read reelman's 1st post and somewhat disagreed............but the more I thought about it, the more he makes sense. Most guides stick that cash right in their pocket, that's why most don't take credit cards.
Brad and I own a restaurant and there have been times when we first opened that both of us had to bartend at one time or another. I NEVER kept a tip for myself.....it went into the bucket and was split between the rest of the staff.
There has also been many many times when customers have tried to buy me a drink........99% of the time I do not accept and thank them. I tell them to please not spend their money on me because I do not pay for my drinks or food as it is......those are the perks of being an owner.
I guess what I'm saying is that, as an owner in a "tipping" business, I do not accept tips, nor do I expect them. Getting their business is my reward, and I know that our customers notice and appreciate the fact that we do accept their money in the form of a tip or a drink.
That being said, I was in Naples, FL last month and we did a 4 hour backwaters charter. We did horrible.............caught a handful of very small snapper and one small grouper. The guide did his very best and taught us a lot about how tide affects the fishing. He moved around a lot trying to find moving water and he worked his butt off. On a $350 trip, I tipped him $100........ he was a captain for the fishing outfit and was not an owner.  |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What if the Guide business is a sole proprietorship, as most are? I'd say it's still up to the customer, as Norm said so very well. |
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Posts: 72
| Question for the muskie guides on the forum. If a client is using your gear and looses a lure. Do you require the client to pay for the lost lure?
I've had some say yes and other say no. Thanks in advance. |
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Posts: 335
Location: Orland Park | Tips are taxable.....and I don't know what it's like up north, but it sucks to go thru an audit down here.
If a guide counts on his tips and expects a certain $ amount as a tip, then include that $ amount in the price of the trip and specify "TIPS NOT ACCEPTED" when advertised. That way, rumors don't spread, nobody will accuse anyone of not fishing hard enough or fishing the good spots, there's no confusion by the customer as to how much to tip, no hard feelings, the IRS won't crawl up your wazoo, and threads like this don't get started.
Thanks for coming! You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here! |
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Posts: 1270
| "We carry an average of $140k in baits and rods every trip" Who carries $140,000 worth of bait and rods on a trip? Who even ownes $140,000 worth of baits and rods? |
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| MOMuskieHunter - 5/24/2008 3:21 PM
Question for the muskie guides on the forum. If a client is using your gear and looses a lure. Do you require the client to pay for the lost lure?
I've had some say yes and other say no. Thanks in advance.
Nope, I had clients break rods and other such issues...that is just part of the game...It comes out of the guides pocket... |
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| AFTER FISHING WITH A GUIDE FOR 4-5 DAYS IN A ROW AND BEING DEAD TIRED AND READY TO GO HOME TO MY NICE SOFT WIFE AND HARD BED KNOWING THE GUIDE HAS TO HIT IT HARD TOMMAROW WITH ANOTHER CLIENT-#*^@ RIGHT IM GOING TO TIP HIM OR HER GOOD! I NORMALLY TELL THEM BEFORE WE START TO FISH, TODAY YOUR GOING TO GET A GOOD TIP, MAYBE EVEN A GREAT TIP! WORKS WELL FOR ME (I FISH WITH THE SAME TWO GUIDES FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS) ONE IN WI. AND ONE IN MN. TWO TOTALY DIFFERENT GUIDES BOTH WITH THE SAME GOAL, TO PUT THERE CLIENTS ON FISH, 15-20% IS GOOD, ANY FISH OVER 50IN OR MULTIPLE FISH IN THE BOAT CALLS FOR A 25-35% TIP OR MORE AND I ALWAYS BUY THEM LUNCH AND A BEER AFTER THE DAYS OVER. ITS A TOUGH. |
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Posts: 1270
| Not musky related but I see a lot of the boats that charter on the Great Lakes put a sign prominently on there boat that says "First Mate Works For Tips Only" Yet when I go to there web-sites I don't see any mention of that. This is in VERY, VERY poor taste IMHO. Some guy saves up enough to be able to afford a charter and then they get on board and see a sign like this! Now they are basically obligated to pay the first mate because the captain is either to cheap to pay them or doesn't think far enough ahead to put the cost of the first mate in the price of the charter. |
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| I had a client break two reels in one day and bouce one so hard off of my gunnel that it took a gouge out of it. A tip would have been nice. |
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | reelman - 5/24/2008 10:44 PM
"We carry an average of $140k in baits and rods every trip" Who carries $140,000 worth of bait and rods on a trip? Who even ownes $140,000 worth of baits and rods?
Muskyboy does. LOL (kidding Steve).
I don't think any guides (or many) would charge for a lost bait or a broken rod or reel. I've had a client (the same guy) break 2 rods in 2 years now. It's part of the expense on my end. I'm not going to charge him, although I may give him a rod duct taped together next time we fish. However he is a regular client and books 4-5 trips a year, so that in itself is more than worth any tip he would give.
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Tipping Your Guide