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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | From UNDER the water? Topraider? Rumbler?
Got the test run done, it worked pretty well.
Stand by..... |
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | Cool |
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Location: Hayward, WI | Awesome, can't wait to hear it. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Really, did I miss it? |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Steve, what bait sounds are you going to bring to the Madison Muskie School?
I would like to hear some of your findings sometime Saturday if I can get a chance. Drop me a pm or post so I can hook up with you around my classes. |
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | I'd like to hear a Pacemaker if you have one handy. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Norm and I will be recording about 100 lures over the next couple months. This will be the most unique library of bait videos available anywhere.
Bait builders, if you want a lure in the collection, contact me at [email protected]. |
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| Steve, if there's room, 10 inch and 13 inch jointed Believers, the ole XL Jitterbug and Slammer's Thunderhead are three I'd love to hear. This is going to be wild. Bet I'm not gonna be the only one laying it down on an ipod to listen to at work lol. |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | Make sure Norm brings the Spoonman lure he has to try.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Corey.
I absolutely will, that thing makes just a little bit of racket!  |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | Where are you guys going to be doing this? Holiday Acres again? I would be interested in watching you guys . . . .and possibly making lures to try with different bushing combinations. I have made a few lures where I solder a small hex tube over the lure wire then use a larger hex tube for a bushing on whatever blade I use. Any lures I would build you guys can keep as a donation for raffles or whatever you want for M1.
Norm,
if you are going to be in Blaine stop by my booth, I have a couple of these lures you can look at and see what I mean.
Corey
Edited by muskymeyer 3/6/2008 9:29 AM
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| I could see how beneficial this could be if humans had a lateral line or hearing senses like a fish.
I'm gonna go out on a limb.
Prop baits- plop plog plog
walk the dogs- swoosh swoosh swoosh
buzz baits- buzz......... |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Hooper,
Information and understanding what is triggering fish is key. This info may get you onto the next plain of bait choices. Hypothetically, you might find the "sound" signature of a Mojo XX and a Depth Raider are very similar, unlikely, but this is hypothetical mind you. If fish are following the XX all day, they are drawn possibly by the "sound" signature. Maybe if you switched to a Depth Raider with the same sound signature to draw them in, the difference in visible action may be the ticket to hooking up.
Information is never a bad thing, and I am very excited about this one. |
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| Norm,
I understand that the sound is key.
But are we to believe that the way a human being hears a recording of a bait is actually what a fish will hear and feel?
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Hoop - 3/6/2008 9:38 AM
Norm,
I understand that the sound is key.
But are we to believe that the way a human being hears a recording of a bait is actually what a fish will hear and feel?
Why not? We seem to have fallen for it w/ regard to bait profiles, action and colors. With the notable exception of some of the hyper-realistic paint jobs coming out of the basement bait camp, none of those attributes are really very fishlike to another fish.
Realistically, I don't think we have to try to understand what a fish sees, feels or hears in the same way they do. But in the case of the hypothetical that Norm presented earlier, if we know what a bait sounds like to us, and it is illiciting a response from the fish, but not the total one that we want, we can choose another 'similar sounding' bait to try to close the deal.
S. |
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| OK, I'll bite.
Given the scenario from Norm. Does a Depthraider make noise? Yes it does, if it has rattles. So you are throwing a Depthraider, rattling away and you have a follow and the fish does not strike. What do you do, try a lure with a different rattle? Try a lure without a rattles?
OK, your bait selection worked. You made a bait change and you hooked up. Was it the sound, profile that made the difference? Are going to tell me that hearing a poolside recording of a lure can help you determine the sound signature and being able to then establish a pattern off of this research?
How about this scenario. You are throwing lure XX and you get a few follows. You decide to switch over to lure YY and manage to put 2 fish in the boat. You are feeling all good about yourself and thought process until you have a conversation with your buddy you just came by and they have 7 fish in the boat during the same time on lure WW.
I guess I am somewhat curious to hear what certain lures sound like under water. But applying human senses to a handful of musky lures to determine which lure will convert a brainless fish is....brainless. Cabin Fever. |
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| sorry for my lack of tact in my brainless term usage. Poor choice of words on my part. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Hooper - 3/6/2008 11:01 AM
But applying human senses to a handful of musky lures to determine which lure will convert a brainless fish is....brainless. Cabin Fever.
You said it all there, brainless fish. They react (not think) to various stimuli in different ways each and every day. If you can understand a bit more about the various stimuli you may be able to predict a bit more what the reaction may be. It sure beats mindless bait changing.
The research and looking for answers is hardly brainless if you ask me, but everyone has there own way of choosing what to throw I guess. |
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| I guess I am somewhat curious to hear what certain lures sound like under water. But applying human senses to a handful of musky lures to determine which lure will convert a brainless fish is....brainless. Cabin Fever.
i've listened to some of Steve's earlier recordings of baits, very interesting. it'll be great to hear the updated ones on new lures.
i think about it less in terms of what particular sound triggers a fish, but rather under certain conditions (current, wind, dark/clear water, etc.) do you want a loud lure or a quiet lure. it's VERY surprising how much noise certain lures make that you think would be quiet, and how little sound is put off by "noisy" lures.
even just the bait moving in the water makes a lot of noise.
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| well then it stands to reason to have a recording of a DCG and buy every lure under the sun that sounds like them. |
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Posts: 431
| I want to hear the baits, but not because I'm necessarily going to make particular decisions on when to fish the baits. I think it would just be neat to hear them. I also might hear a bait that I have never done well on and decide that I don't like the sound of the bait compared to other baits. Might give me a reason to use the bait less or give up on it. |
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | It is interesting in the fact that things sound alot different under water than they do above, ie.. a boat motor sounds like a high pitch whine. I feel there is something to learn from it! |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Hoop, if you don't think this will help YOU then don't listen to it when it comes out. I am a bit interested in this, and think it's pretty cool. Just for the simple fact of knowing what some of these lures sound like underwater.
I've always heard that a Suick is pretty loud underwater. |
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| are there going to be jetski's and big inboards in the background too? |
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Posts: 11
| A Suick will produce a sound pressue level that ranges from 42 - 68dB in the 16 to 63Hz frequency range. The measurements were taken at a distance of 18inches from the hydrophone as it passed by. This is an actual measurement taken through a hydrophone and a Sound Level Meter with octave band filter frequency analysis. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That depends on which Suick is recorded. A 10" weighted has a much more 'laid back' signature. Hoop, you missed the entire point of this...one can see how a lure behaves, what it looks like under water, and what the lure sounds like which SHOULD create an atmosphere where LESS anthropomorphism is practiced, I would think. Loud is loud, not loud is not loud, middle is middle, and you will be surprised by some lures; NONE sound very 'natural'.
A DCG will not...I repeat not, necessarily sound like other double 10's. Why? Blade placement on the shaft, type of clevis, skirt material and how much that bells out the rotation of the blades, what material the bead that the clevis rotates against, etc. What does that mean to the fish? Not sure, but it's still interesting to me. If, for example, a certain double 10 is producing for you and another is not, it may be possible to see some of what's going on there.
What this inevitably proves is Doug Johnson's perfect comment about lures. " If it moves, it's food."
I was surprised ( but pretty interested..)what the Weagle looked like underwater, and the 'Mystery lure', too...despite throwing both thousands of casts.
I was even MORE surprised to hear what a Krusher sounded like. Wow. I'll be tossing that thing on the dark waters of the Goon this summer!
Jetskis and inboards...maybe on some of the recordings, yes. I'ts our intent to show the lures in actual use on the water as much as is possible..
Some folks will assume things about certain lures that prove to be not what is expected. How will one use this information? However one wishes.
And I promise most will be surprised which surface lure in the little equipment test we did yesterday at Holiday Acres in Rhinelander was the loudest. Click on the link below.......
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=40... |
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| Ok Steve, I'm with you on baits sound different from what we would think. Even similar baits styles (twin bladed buck tails for example) although strikingly similar may put out entirely different sounds.
But then what?
One day on the water, the fish may be going crazy on chicken minnow, the next on Cranes, the next on DCGs.
I guess I am somewhat confused as to what this research will prove. I applaud your efforts, but I just don't understand what all of this effort will do other then possibly let people know that some of their lures that they thought were quiet, were actually must louder then they thought and vice versa.
Before hitting the water, most of us have some word as to what is moving fish. When we get there, we use lures that others who have had success have recommended. If they don't work, we look at weather conditions and lake conditions and try other lures. Fishing with a group gives the posibility to cover the spectrum of lures much faster to find a pattern.
But knowing that one day a fish went crazy on a particular bait and the next day it would not be given a look, I don't get how knowing the sound and even being able to differentiate and identify sounds will assist in hooking up with a fish that may feed for 15 minutes once a week.
Not that I will not tune in to here a few. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Who said this was 'research'?
I've used the information I received from the test I did 20 years ago over, and over, and over...
Patterns. Knowing what lures are similar to what's hot, yet can be moved slower, or faster getting a similar 'footprint'. Understanding a Buzz bait sounds and looks WAY different than one might imagine and what a fixed rivet against the blade instead of a rotating bead will get you. Seeing and hearing the difference between lures and drawing a few ideas as to why one is hot one day, and not the next; etc. Getting it as to what hook placement can do to a lure's signature.
Do with this what you will. If it's strictly entertainment, that's cool, too, one has to admit it's fun to watch and listen. At least the question, once we are done with this and continue to update, will be answered..." What does a (insert lure name here) look like in the water, and how is it different from a (insert lure name here)?"
And maybe folks will see why Muskie SLAM a Dog Turd, and why I put that goofy 'stinger' on the thing.   |
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Posts: 170
| I've done this a few times during mid day breaks...on a hot day, it sure breaks things up and it's pretty amazing some of the similar, yet dis-similar sounds that come form various baits. We typically did it the most with topwaters (this was probably 10 years ago so the variety of baits was nothing like today). We also did a few cranks and suicks/bobbies (love bobbies). Just remember though...do this with buddies you trust...OR take the hooks off!! LOL...
Should be good stuff once we see (or should I say hear) it... |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I think this type of information is extremely interesting. Just hearing the difference between the topraider and the rumbler is enough to potentially make a difference in how a fish might react. I am looking forward to hearing more of these baits...
I think it could definitely make the difference on certain waters, depending on water clarity, depth, etc. It all goes into what may or may not elicit a strike...
Thanks much and I look forward to more.
Steve |
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Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Now that is some great stuff Steve.
Another reason MuskieFirst is the leading authourity in inovation on websites.
Just huge stuff in my mind for the public to learn from. If you have not checked out the link you should. That rumbler is loud. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Every bait we can get out hands on...eventually. |
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Posts: 66
| Wow, very cool steve. Didn't know that the creeper would be that loud.I like it ,keep up the good work.
Brian. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Just saw the link, and I stand by my first comment. This is cool! I as well am suprised at how loud the creeper was. I thought the loudest out of the bunch. Looks like the creeper would be actually good at calling fish up from a distance. Hmmm, suspended fishing maybe? |
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Location: Hayward, WI | Very cool stuff. Some of those baits seemed loud enough that I could see a fish hitting them just to make the darn thing be quiet! I would be interested to hear what some jerkbaits, crankbaits, and bucktails sound like too. Can't wait to see and hear more.
curleytail |
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Posts: 207
Location: Mpls, MN | Love to hear the difference between the Hawg Wobbler and the Wolly Pog. Interesting stuff. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A short clip of what the produced pieces will look like is now up. It's not as polished as the final work will be, but you will be able to see what Keith, Norm, and I will be producing. |
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| I think this is interesting topic. Think of sounds as audio "colors" if you will. Each bait has its own hues and tones. You doubters out there - you have more than one color of bait don't you?
Just as with paints, there are likely "audio patterns" that my emerge.
clink-clink-CLANK is much different than CLANK-CLANK-FZZZZ.
How does this translate to baits? I'm just brainstorming here but lets say someone is able to establish a sound classification system and make it practical for manufactureres to reliably classify their baits, we then have another dimension to experiment with.
Have you ever been throwing the same bait as a buddy but the buddy is getting more action? Maybe it's their action, or placement but maybe, just maybe, there's an audio factor involved.
Manufacturers could vary the material composition (esp. in plastics) to control / vary the "audio color" of their bait.
Look at Heiting's "Gretzky" lure (I think it was his) - what was diffent about that bait? He'd thrown others that looked the same - but didn't get the similar results.
Perhaps, there was an audio factor at play?
Regardless of Worrall's motivation for making the recordings, they will provide some interesting discussion and hopefully innovation.
How would one apply this? I don't know, I doubt I'll switch baits types based on tone alone but if I had the option, I may try a "darker audio colored" DR if a "brighter" colored DR was not producing or only giving me follows.
Regardless, it would give me the feeling that I was in control and all this isn't just random luck.
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| Hooper - 3/6/2008 12:06 PM
well then it stands to reason to have a recording of a DCG and buy every lure under the sun that sounds like them.
Now you're onto something... Instead of buying every lure under the sun, just buy one and change it's sound.
Lets look at your silent DR example again... insert an audio emitter that can emulate sounds from a selection of baits.... want an underwater weagle - push 139 on the remote, want a DCG, that's code 666, etc etc.
Not practical in terms of cost, but if it were, hmmm.... bait ringtones anyone?
Edited by Fishwater1 3/7/2008 12:48 PM
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Posts: 726
Location: Eau Claire, WI | This is fun stuff indeed, I love it. I posted a couple lure freq analysis pics from a "random" sampling of the video. They are on the other thread. interesting to see the lower end sigs.
Jono |
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Posts: 457
| So, which is the loudest. It's hard for me to tell with the ambient noise around me right now. I'd have to go with the weagle or rumbler, followed by the globe, but like I said, I'm not hearing it clearly. What IS the mystery lure? ican't place it at all. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mystery Lure: original version from the early 80's...
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Posts: 80
Location: Northwoods | What the heck it that thing? |
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| Loudest in the pool demo was the Creeper, I thought. That bait above is a flaptail-type, the Snodlo? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It's shorter and stockier than a Snodlow. It's a Dog Turd. Aptly named by Jim Bagley during a trip for Muskies on Pelican. That lure had a few coats of brown and black paint and when I pulled it out of the box to clip on the leader, he said, " I have a dog, and if that was in my yard, I sure wouldn't step on it."
Nightmare refinished the lure for me last year. I have another almost as old that will forever be Beav's, hanging in the garage.
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Posts: 2269
Location: SE, WI. | Steve; I would like to hear that old headbanger I gave you years ago when you do the sound study. Rumor has it,it is in like new condition in your muskie box. Why don't you fish that bait??? Thankyou sir!!! |
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Location: Eau Claire,WI | Steve are you looking for lures to test? I have some lures that have been out of production for years you could borrow.Let me/us know.Thanks,Paul |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | jd,
That lure was crushed by so many muskies it's plain wore out. I think it's in the archive, but doesn't run anymore. Wish I had another...
Paul,
You bet, I'd love to borrow those baits! |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Steve - Could you have a transducer running during at least one of the tests? I think people would be interested to hear what that sounds like through a hydrophone. |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Will Schultz - 3/12/2008 6:49 AM
Steve - Could you have a transducer running during at least one of the tests? I think people would be interested to hear what that sounds like through a hydrophone.
Yeah, I'd be really interested in that. You may also want to consider an electric trolling motor and/or a transducer as an ambient sound source for a few of the tests. If there is any.
S. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | sorenson - 3/12/2008 9:33 AM Will Schultz - 3/12/2008 6:49 AM Steve - Could you have a transducer running during at least one of the tests? I think people would be interested to hear what that sounds like through a hydrophone. Yeah, I'd be really interested in that. You may also want to consider an electric trolling motor and/or a transducer as an ambient sound source for a few of the tests. If there is any. S. It sounds like you are standing next to a train going 50 mph. I'm not sure if Steve's mic system will pick it up the same way a hydrophone does. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Will,
We will be using a hydrophone. it should be here this week, and I intend to record a Nature Vision Showdown sonar and some crappies and gills as soon as the thing arrives. I bet a hit on a Weagle or a Rumbler will sound pretty cool... |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | sworrall - 3/12/2008 11:48 AM Will, We will be using a hydrophone. it should be here this week, and I intend to record a Nature Vision Showdown sonar and some crappies and gills as soon as the thing arrives. I bet a hit on a Weagle or a Rumbler will sound pretty cool... Awesome!! I know the first time I heard a transducer pinging through a hydrophone that I couldn't believe the NOISE. |
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Posts: 2269
Location: SE, WI. | Steve; Send me that archive headbanger. I can make it kick more BUTT!!! I will refurbish that gem for you. |
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