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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | Just wondering what the rule is here.
If you hire a guide do you:
Fish the same water the next day or even after the guide drops you off
Ask the guide to mark a map for you
Bring your equipment, I know this is optional
Or are these things in some kind of unwritten rule of things you just shouldn't do?
Edited by floydss 2/21/2008 2:05 PM
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Posts: 8780
| 1. depends on the lake -- well known lake, yes. Laxe X type lake? No way, not without asking first. And I would be reluctant to ask depending on my relationship with that guide.
2. I'v always felt weird about that one, so I don't do it unless they offer first. If they offer, I will happily give them a map and a pen. (and a nice tip)
3. I bring my own stuff, because I'm comfortable with my rods and reels, and I sometimes fish left handed. BUT: I am very mindful about the fact that my stuff takes up space in someone else's boat, so I limit myself to a medium sized box and 2 rods. Bringing 3 lakewoods on a guide trip? Bad form. |
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | 1. Yes, that's why normally why I hire a guide. I try to get them the first day or 2 into a long trip.
2. If the offer, yes please mark up a map, I've even had guides put some waypoints on my handheld.
3. I like using my own tackle, i've lost a few fish b/c of others tackle. I only want to blame myself if that situation comes up. As addict does, I bring 2 rods and normally a couple of plano boxes with suggested baits the guide recommends, plus a couple favorites. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I can answer those from a guide's perspective.
1. I expect you to fish the water I show you. If I was dead set against somebody else fishing it I wouldn't take you there. I have yet to hide water from clients, you are spending hard earned money on me, I am going to do everything I can to make you successful. I am accepting money from you, whatever you learn from me you paid for and can use as your own. I may ask that you not publicize water, but if I show it to you I expect you to fish it.
2. If we fish a lake I will by all means mark your map for you. In fact, I will mark maps up for you even if we haven't fished that particular lake that day. Again, you are paying me, make the most of it. I will allow a GPS in my boat as well. Again, if I didn't want you to fish the areas I wouldn't show them to you (this also has never happened). I get just as good a feeling from someone calling or emailing me that they boated fish off a spot I showed them, as I would if they caught the fish when they were in the boat with me. I am concerned about your success above all else.
3. The question about gear is personal to every client. If you have good equipment and would feel more comfortable using it, by all means use it. If I see that your equipment is not adequate for any reason, I will suggest that you use mine. I never tell clients not to bring anything they fell they might need or use. I let them all use my stuff as if it were their own.
Edited by nwild 2/21/2008 2:44 PM
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | thank you all |
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Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Norm has said it so well I can only add a few more things.
Please feel free to bring your tackle when you hire a guide. I will go through it when we meet and suggest what to bring and what you will not need to bring with you. I encourage you to use my rods and reels because they are top of the line equipment. I will also tell you what lures you have are best and when they are best used on the lake we are fishing. Bringing your own tackle can be a problem with some smaller guide boats. I encourage you to bring it. I have more than enough storage space on my Ranger620VS.
As for marking a map. I always offer to do so and will tell you in advance to purchase one so I can mark up the spots we fished and the other good ones we didn't have time to hit.
GPS. By all means bring one if your out with me. I encourage it.
My guide service is to make you a better fishermen after your trip is over. Anything I can do to help you while your with me is my service. Muskies are hard enough to catch even if you know the spots and baits they are eating. Learning that is why you hire a guide.
Maybe some might think I am a little Extreme in my genorousity but thats how I run my service. Just like Norm!!
And "yes" I do see my past clients fishing the spots I showed them the day before. I ask how they are doing, suggest whats going to work and keep on guiding. Thats a guides job. We can find other water to fish or just fish behind the other clients. I have got clients fish while following past clients on numerous occations.
Fishing pressure effects the fishermen more than the fish. Once you believe that more fish will come into your boat. I learned that a long time ago.
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | How much do they expect as far as tipping goes? Is it like 5%, 10%...is there a standard?
*I use the word "expect" loosely. |
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| I think most are spot on here. I will just add that out east, the guides will actually point out ahead of time that you are not to come back to the spots they take you to fish. It is for numerous reasons and if you want them to take you out, you should respect their way of doing business. However this is more of a North Eastern thing and they have numerous solid reasons behind it... |
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Posts: 13
Location: Cass Lake | Some folks tip, some don't...I just want my clients to hook, fight, and smile in their picures of their fish. If I get a tip it is just an added bonus to having the best career in the world. |
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Location: WI | BenR - 2/22/2008 4:55 PM
I think most are spot on here. I will just add that out east, the guides will actually point out ahead of time that you are not to come back to the spots they take you to fish. It is for numerous reasons and if you want them to take you out, you should respect their way of doing business. However this is more of a North Eastern thing and they have numerous solid reasons behind it...
That's rediculous. The whole reason I'm paying a guide is to learn new spots. I'm not paying to catch a fish, I can do that already. It's all about speeding up the learning curve on new water.
What are they going to do if you do go back? Tell you to leave? Ha! |
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | Brian Jones - 2/22/2008 8:59 PM
Some folks tip, some don't...I just want my clients to hook, fight, and smile in their picures of their fish. If I get a tip it is just an added bonus to having the best career in the world.
Thanks for the answer. |
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| JKahler - 2/22/2008 9:05 PM
BenR - 2/22/2008 4:55 PM
I think most are spot on here. I will just add that out east, the guides will actually point out ahead of time that you are not to come back to the spots they take you to fish. It is for numerous reasons and if you want them to take you out, you should respect their way of doing business. However this is more of a North Eastern thing and they have numerous solid reasons behind it...
That's rediculous. The whole reason I'm paying a guide is to learn new spots. I'm not paying to catch a fish, I can do that already. It's all about speeding up the learning curve on new water.
What are they going to do if you do go back? Tell you to leave? Ha!
Actually you are paying them for a chance at an upper 50 inch fish which they can and do put people on at a regular basis. You also learn some great techniques that you would have not known otherwise. The local non-guiding population is a huge reason why you would not want to go back on your own. Tell you to leave..Ha Ha, they don't work that way. I would not suggest it and also the guide will get a bunch of problems from them as well if you came back. Either way this is discussed prior to the trip. You are getting a chance at fish that really do not exist in the midwest and that is how most folks out there treat it. It is a different game...Ben |
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | So what are you saying that once a guide takes you to a spot, that he puts up no tresspassing signs then?? your post is confusing to me
The local non-guiding population is a huge reason why you would not want to go back on your own. Tell you to leave..Ha Ha, they don't work that way.
What are they the spot mafia??? what would they do whack me??? put a dead horse's head in my boat??
The way I see it is; No one owns the water ,
The only reason I asked was out of respect for the guide I hired, I was going to go back to the spots regardless but didnt know about the next day. |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | floydss,
Those folks are better described as 'outfitters', not guides. |
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | ty
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Location: Washington, PA | floydss, it's pretty well known that's how some guides on the Ottawa and St. Lawrence work. That's why I wouldn't hire them. I think it's ridiculous, but they do tell you up front. |
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| Any guide that works the Larry or ottawa will not take any locals out for that reason, the better guides wont even take out Canadians, and if they do there from the other end of the country |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Believe it or not BenR is correct about out East on the Ottawa and St. Lawrence. Most of those guides run a tight lipped guide service. If you want to be going to the hot spots you better have them convinced that this is a once in a lifetime trip.
I got my two biggest fish out there and never mentioned the two monster I caught for over 5 years. I learned some great water and was in the iner circle with them because I was tight lipped. I would love to go back out but it would be a planned trip with "the boys" again. I would never take my rig or anyone else out there to fish. Just my RESPECT for the boys who took me in as one of their own.
Believe it or not tires on trucks and trailors have been slashed in parking lots. Picture all of your tires flat when you came back from a long day of fishing. It has happened. This happens all over with guides stepping on other guides area. Just ask Tony Grant about tires. He told me he has went through a bunch.
Some waters are just protected more than others. Always ask a guide these questions before you book them. Guides will be happy you asked and everything is in the open. I will offer anything I can do to make your trip with me the best it can be at the time and after your trip. You will be better prepaired the next times you hit the water I guided you on and other waters.
If I was to go back out East and hire a guide I would make sure they believe me that I would keep it quiet and the spots we fished would not be shared. That is how you get to the good zones. RESPECT thier spots and enjoy you chances to score one of the biggest fish you ever caught.
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| It's very clear some things are different about the way guide trips are conducted out east. If that's the accepted and 'normal' way to run a guide trip I don't really think there's anything wrong, as long as it's well communicated to the client and there is an agreed-upon understanding.
I run a trip the same as Norm. I explain thoroughly where we're fishing and why so the guest understands what's going on. The end of the trip usually ends with a map-marking session where I mark all the spots we fished together and also mark similar spots that we didn't hit. I'll coach the guest on where to go and what to try on the following days depending on current patterns, forecasted wind, etc. They end the day satisfied, with a a bunch of spots they just learned and a number of spots to explore on their own. GPS coordinates are not a big deal either. I expect tosee them again in the following days and that's fine; we'll wave and even swap reports if within shouting distance.
I really hope the client returns to a spot they got from me and has sucess. Catching a musky with a guide is great, but catching one on your own is even better. If someone boats one off a spot of mine, then I've really succeeded. Some of the best, most thankful e-mails come from guys who were excited that they could go out on their own and score.
Some guests just want to go out and catch a musky and that's fine. that's a simple and straight-forward goal. Most, however, know a guaranteed fish is an unrealistic expectation and really booked a guide for the education. Even when I'm milking a hot and consistent pattern I can't guarantee a musky will be netted. I can, however, guarantee an education and improved familiarity with the lake.
- Paul |
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| I don’t post very often but think I should on the recent comments on this post. I guess I can’t understand why people- (guides) would act this way ' OUT EAST ' . I for one after hearing about this will never hire a guide from this area or want to fish it. Regardless of the chance to hook a fish of a lifetime. I for one hire a guide to learn and understand how to be a better musky fisherman. I don’t pay a guide $ 350 and up to never fish that area again. This to me is ridiculous. If this is true, and it would be understood I don’t fish the area myself later, I would expect then if I don’t catch a fish not only will I not tip you I would request my money back for the trip and not pay you. The expectation then would be I am paying to catch a fish and not learn and apply what I learned on that particular water. It’s just disappointing to me that this is the reality of fishing ' OUT EAST ' . I would love to hear from an 'OUT EAST' guide explain to me your logic. I hire a guide to learn and apply this knowledge to that water on a later date. I all of you who fish muskies just because I learn something from a guide doesn’t mean I can always apply it to other waters. Techniques that work on some waters will not work on others. So then my question is if I dont catch a fish with said guide what did I get for my money?
Just your average muskie fisherman
Trevor |
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| Trevor, $350 is not even close. However you learn from people that put the largest muskies in the world in the boat on a regular basis. They are very nice folks who work super hard to get you fish. They teach techniques that are not known outside of that area. You get to fish pretty incredible structure and learn how to fish it. I really don't understand why people are upset about it. It was not posted to get people upset. I simple added an answer to the question asked. To fish with these guys is a once in a lifetime trip for most people. I was lucky enough to live out there and get to spend numerous days with one of the guides. He has become a great friend. The muskies canada chapter there is great as well....Ben
Edited by BenR 2/24/2008 10:07 PM
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Posts: 12
| I always buy the guide lunch at a local resort or resturant if we stop for lunch and always offer to buy them a beer after the day is done (if its not to late) and if the guide puts me on fish and we had fun then a tip is in order. jason hamernick put me on multiple fish days and my personal best (twice) and I belive I tipped him a $150 each day! these guys are busting there butts to make sure you get your moneys worth and should be compensated for it, thats my opinion. |
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Posts: 376
Location: Lake Vermilion Tower, MN | I have on one occasion even let my client put his map chip in my GPS so he could duplicate our milkrun.
I just like to be ask if it's OK to bring a GPS along. I have never refused a customers request to bring one.
I also mark their map with all the areas we fished and I always give them a few more to check out on their own. I do have the luxury of guiding on a Lake that has more spots than you could fish in a lifetime. Might be different if I was guiding a small body of water with limited productive areas, I don't know.
For the kind of money folks are paying to spend the day with a guide, it should be part of the service to give them a few spots to fish. Most of my customers only come here a trip or 2 a year anyway.
I'd worry more about the locals sitting on all my spots than a tourist.
"Ace"  |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | People don't come out here to learn spots, it's that simple. They drive 12-16 hours to come experience their best chance at true trophies. My average trip is 4 days long ( they have an 80%+ chance at a 50 + incher ), it's not a hire a guide one day and fish alone the rest of the week kind of thing.
We have some of the best muskie waters because of the low pressure, if we start getting 20 boats fishing out of every launch the quality of fishing would decline at a fast pace.
As well you can come here for one week or two every single year and still struggle at finding the beasts, it's big dangerous waters and fish can be anywhere from day to day. That's why even the best of anglers need a guide to stay on fish.
I don't want to guide locals because I'm not going to be out there on my A spots or even using my A game. I don't see me charging 1/2 price for 1/2 service that's all. I actually still have a couple of spots to myself and many I don't want anyone to see how I fish them.
It may even be hard to believe but we don't even fish our A spots in front of others, there's actually a guide out here that you will never see fishing. He moves whenever he sees anyone.
I can give you an example how 1 angler has ruined a section of the river all by himself in less then 5 years.
If the clients want to keep coming back to one of the best fisheries they will have to respect the guides wishes.
It's not a common occurrence in my area but I've heard of vehicles getting damaged in the past. |
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Posts: 41
| "Trevor, $350 is not even close. However you learn from people that put the largest muskies in the world in the boat on a regular basis. They are very nice folks who work super hard to get you fish. They teach techniques that are not known outside of that area. You get to fish pretty incredible structure and learn how to fish it. I really don't understand why people are upset about it."
BenR, so if I get what you are saying, I am paying someone well more than $350 to fish one day with a guy to learn techniques that are specific to that area and learn some incredible structure and how to fish it, but if I try to use those techniques and the information of the structure and how to fish it I will get ran off, have my tires flattened and whatever else, and you can't see why this would make people upset.
Nobody should be upset about you posting this information. They should be greatful that you have shared this info and that they know not to hire one of these "guides", unless the stuff you have spoken of is what they want to spend $500 or whatever it is ontop of whatever else they had to spend to get there., for ONE day and HOPEFULLY get a fish of a lifetime.
But, if you are saying you think running people off the water and flattening people's tires is acceptable to do if someone fishes in a spot you told them was good, I would assume you will be getting some well deserved "upset" responses. Your posts come across like you are advocating this "thug" behavior as "normal" or "acceptable" for musky guides and musky fishing. I assume this is why you are getting the negative responses.
So, if you aren't "allowed" to go back to the areas the guides take you and you don't catch a fish of a lifetime, which I can only imagine happens more than not, what did you pay for, to ride in a boat all day and hear stories about big fish. That's why I log onto here
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Location: Illinois | BenR - 2/24/2008 9:59 PM
I really don't understand why people are upset about it. It was not posted to get people upset.
I think a few get upset upon learning how it works out East because it makes the guides appear arrogant. It's difficult to fathom how it works as an outsider. Hearing how it works out there really blows my mind, so much that I'm not going to try to wrap my brain around it. I'm not upset, as it doesn't effect me in the least bit living in the Midwest. I don't need to understand my Eastern brethren's confusing ways. Two different musky worlds, I guess!
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Bigfish 44, no one pays $500 for 1 day they pay 2-3K for 4 to 6 days and normally get that beast and many times more then one.
Those techniques actually work everywhere, I had a client go back home and catch a lot of fish using what he learned with me and he actually C&R a possible state record.
Coming out east is just like going up north where no one goes on their own, they need to book flights and lodging/guiding through outfitters. |
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| bigfish44 - 2/25/2008 12:22 PM
"Trevor, $350 is not even close. However you learn from people that put the largest muskies in the world in the boat on a regular basis. They are very nice folks who work super hard to get you fish. They teach techniques that are not known outside of that area. You get to fish pretty incredible structure and learn how to fish it. I really don't understand why people are upset about it."
BenR, so if I get what you are saying, I am paying someone well more than $350 to fish one day with a guy to learn techniques that are specific to that area and learn some incredible structure and how to fish it, but if I try to use those techniques and the information of the structure and how to fish it I will get ran off, have my tires flattened and whatever else, and you can't see why this would make people upset.
Nobody should be upset about you posting this information. They should be greatful that you have shared this info and that they know not to hire one of these "guides", unless the stuff you have spoken of is what they want to spend $500 or whatever it is ontop of whatever else they had to spend to get there., for ONE day and HOPEFULLY get a fish of a lifetime.
But, if you are saying you think running people off the water and flattening people's tires is acceptable to do if someone fishes in a spot you told them was good, I would assume you will be getting some well deserved "upset" responses. Your posts come across like you are advocating this "thug" behavior as "normal" or "acceptable" for musky guides and musky fishing. I assume this is why you are getting the negative responses.
So, if you aren't "allowed" to go back to the areas the guides take you and you don't catch a fish of a lifetime, which I can only imagine happens more than not, what did you pay for, to ride in a boat all day and hear stories about big fish. That's why I log onto here
:-)
I really have no idea what you are talking about. You pretty much missed every point of the post. Not sure I can help you...also the guides do not hurt people or their properties...I explained that you learn a lot, why do you assume it will not work elsewhere? Man you folks are filled with anger, it is almost a bit disturbing to believe you can get this worked up over something that does not effect you all. Relax.... |
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Location: Illinois | BenR - 2/25/2008 1:29 PM
Man you folks are filled with anger, it is almost a bit disturbing to believe you can get this worked up over something that does not effect you all. Relax....
As I posted, earlier, I am not upset and this does not effect me in the least bit living in the midwest. (see above post)
I just don't want to be mischaracterized *if*(you probably did not) by "you folks" you were including me.
I think you probably expected some sort of reaction, and I reacted- but not with anything close to anger.
Edited by muskellunged 2/25/2008 2:12 PM
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| I did not expect any reaction. I simply answered the initial posters question with additional info to those already provided...I guess winter is getting the best of some of you...go snowboarding, ice fishing...a bit of fresh air and exercise does some good... |
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | I'd just lie and still go back to their spots. If something got damaged I'd call the cops and my insurance. My interest in fishing out east has greatly decreased. If I have spend that kind of money just to catch a fish I might as well go somewhere exotic like Dorado in Argentina not the Northeast so I have a little better chance .of catching a Muskie a few inches longer than I can in MN. I can get fat 50+"ers here with friendly helpful guides |
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Posts: 431
| Barring any drastic turn of events, this thread has killed my desire to go "east" to get a musky guide. If it has come to the point that an "angler" is paying to "use" the guides spots for 1 day (on public water I might add), this sport has turned into a canned experience. What gives the guides any right to even request that clients stay off the water? I guess if the guides at issue have developed a niche in the musky guide market with enough clients to support such a system, more power to them. I for one will not be among their clients, as this is not the kind of experience that I desire. |
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Location: Rhinelander. | Norm and extreme did say it well. I add this one thing. I tell them to bring there own raingear. I don't want the job of picking one up in every size and then be blamed for not haveing good suits if they get wet. Bring your own rainsuit my one big syipulation. Of cours no beer or booze in the boat the other.
PFeiff |
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Location: The desert | momuskies - 2/25/2008 8:54 PM
Barring any drastic turn of events, this thread has killed my desire to go "east" to get a musky guide. If it has come to the point that an "angler" is paying to "use" the guides spots for 1 day (on public water I might add), this sport has turned into a canned experience. What gives the guides any right to even request that clients stay off the water? I guess if the guides at issue have developed a niche in the musky guide market with enough clients to support such a system, more power to them. I for one will not be among their clients, as this is not the kind of experience that I desire.
Not trying to be a knob here, but do you guys actually read all the posts in this thread? If not, go back and READ Richard Collin's post, he CLEARLY explains some things about the East. |
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| I will add that the policy of these guides is a highly influenced by the local folks. In this area English is not the language spoken. Some of the people in these areas do not even speak English. They do not want tourist for numerous reasons, I am sure some of it is from previous experiences. They set the tone that the guides to an extent follow in order to be able to guide without having to answer to the wrath. Even if a guide did not mind if someone came back, they would not be able to guide under those circumstances. Either way it has made for an incredible fishery that is highly managed.... |
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Location: Mt. Zion, IL | If I am paying that kind of money, you can guarantee I will fish that water. That to me is the price you pay as a guide. I will travel to LOTW or out "East" but it will not be a regular thing. If I am told not to fish spots, I would simply laugh on the inside. Richard's post does not do anything for me except state that SOME guides may slash your tires for fishing "their" water. Last I checked no one owned any portion of the water; that is why ramps are public. In the event that any of my equipment/vehicle is damaged, the police will be involved 100%. I completely agree with momuskies. I am not paying 500 bucks to exchange stories. I can go to the local tackle shop and do that. |
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| RyanJoz - 2/25/2008 11:37 PM
If I am paying that kind of money, you can guarantee I will fish that water. That to me is the price you pay as a guide. I will travel to LOTW or out "East" but it will not be a regular thing. If I am told not to fish spots, I would simply laugh on the inside. Richard's post does not do anything for me except state that SOME guides may slash your tires for fishing "their" water. Last I checked no one owned any portion of the water; that is why ramps are public. In the event that any of my equipment/vehicle is damaged, the police will be involved 100%. I completely agree with momuskies. I am not paying 500 bucks to exchange stories. I can go to the local tackle shop and do that.
The guides would never slash or do anything. You are dealing with the locals, the guides would never do it. However a renegade cowboy attitude might not be the greatest of ideas...as this has been going on for the past 15 years and they really have not had an issue with too many coming back:) I stopped to visit a friend of mine who is a guide in that area and was pulling my boat. I was not going to fish that area, just passing through. I stopped to get gas and a guy noticed I was a muskie fisherman. He came right up and started to question why I was in town and what my plans were. He made it pretty clear I was not welcome. As I stated before, the guides are not the ones who made the policy, they just work with it... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Gotta remember, that area is part of a foreign country and the Province might have experienced less influence from US tourists and visitors from other countries. That said, there are areas of the US where out of the area hunters showing up without an outfitter are not treated much differently by the locals.
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Location: Mt. Zion, IL | Then BenR that is my mistake. I may have misread that part. Still no individual owns any water. |
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| Maybe I should figure out a way to make Lake Kinkaid my own private playground. Better yet, I'll just move north and claim Vermillion. I have re-read all the posts and must reiterate that this "out east" thing just isn't for me. Maybe I'll just have to drive out this summer to check it out for myself. If I'm going to pay a fortunate to fish water that I can't fish on my own (or I'm supposedly not allowed to), I will be going somewhere much more exotic to fish for fish that I can't catch on my own. Say Patagonia Brown Trout, Kamchatka peninsula rainbows and salmon, Amazon Peacocks, Fly-in monster pike, and the list goes on. There is one thing that these places have in common, I can't physically fish these places on my own, hence part of the high cost of some of these trips. Anyway, I could keep going but I won't. Moral of the story, this just ain't my cup o tea. |
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| I used to guide on kinkaid and fished there almost everyday for 2 years. I think the bass fisherman did quite a number on my trailer lights and to other muskie fisherman and other stunts. It was not such a polite place in the early years at all... But i do believe in your statement. If you guys were able to pull this off on your own waters you would. The biggest complaint we read on this forum is pressure. How lakes are getting pounded now. They figured out how not to have this issue....they have their river X without having to hide it. If you won't mention the name of the lake you are fishing, you are trying to do the same thing that takes place out east, just going about it in a less destructive manner......
Edited by BenR 2/26/2008 11:00 AM
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | [...]
Let's say that you or I were just getting into muskie fishing and were wondering about guides, we stumble upon this thread and now we have a bad taste in our mouth.
[...]
In this world we are always being watched by the next generation in everything that we do. I just hope I can be a better example than I had growing up.
Thank you
Tony Knuteson |
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Posts: 5874
| It's called cabin fever! Some topics just bring out the negative side of debate, and of those participating. As for this one, you've heard from just one guide from out east. Do I agree with what he says? Not exactly. Do I agree that a guide should demand that you stay away after he's done with you? Nope? But, if it is in fact done as a way of self preservation, well, what can he do? I think part of them saying this is also a warning to you, the client, of what may happen if you do show up in the days following. Now, is it just the locals who do the damage? Or are some of these guides responsible? Only way to tell is to take the risk, and maybe catch those in the act? Not a risk I am willing to take for a fish. Besides, I think I have access to just as big of fish right where I live.
My other thought is I'm not about to pay anybody $2-3K for a 4-6 days of fishing to maybe catch a big fish. I don't care who he is. But that's just me. And I also think that those that do pay that amount are there for those 4-6 days, and are then heading home, not hanging around to fish the next several days to a week.
I think you need to filter and separate normal guides from those out east. Not the same breed and certainly not the same objective. They are there to put you on big fish( at least that is the stated goal), and not necessarily to help you learn that particular body of water.
[...]in this thread, most of the debate was between others. You got some good info out of guys like Ace, Norm, Capt Extreme, and others. And others got the benefit of that same info, and hopefully will put it to good use.
[...] This thread is NOT giving musky anglers a bad name or image. It may cause a few to question where or why they may hire a guide, but so what? I doubt that would cause anybody to not want to get involved in the mania called musky fishing.
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | Trophymuskie - 2/25/2008 12:16 PM
We have some of the best muskie waters because of the low pressure, if we start getting 20 boats fishing out of every launch the quality of fishing would decline at a fast pace.
Seriously, then why is this not the case on Mille Lacs or Vermillion? Tons of pressure there and 40-50#'s are caught every year. If you fish with some of the top guides there I'd bet your chance at a 50+"er is probably close to the same as out east. |
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Posts: 8780
| If I was just getting into muskie fishing, this sort of stuff is exactly what I'd want to learn about so I knew who to hire/not hire, and why. Personally, I respect Richard's willingness to tell it like it is. Neat little reminder that you just can't go wherever you want and do whatever you want and expect to be welcomed with open arms. |
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| I will also add that this is not the whole river. There are areas that you are able to fish and will not get any flack from anyone. You still will have ample opportunity to catch multiple 50-54 inch fish. I had a map marked up by one of the guides for these areas. The areas that are "protected" are the spots that tend to hold the 56 plus inch fish and also are located in less tourist friendly areas. Also a good debate is nice. I don't think anyone is taking this personally. It is just an exchange of cultures. I think what I am trying to express, is that you will would have a great time, learn a ton, and spend time on the water with a guide that loves what he does and works harder than anyone else I have had the pleasure to fish with. Also those techniques added a whole new arsenal to my approach to fishing....Ben |
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Posts: 1247
Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | My job as a Guide is not only to teach you how to fish or add to your learning curve,but to also teach you the water we are on.I have no problem marking your map or giving you GPS numbers. I will however school you on how important it is to handle our Big Girl's properly and how important it is to a Natural Fishery to Release your fish no matter how big it is.I'm from out East and you can come back,fish yourself the same day and ask me whats going on,I'll always try to answer you back when I'm not busy.
Capt. Larry D. Jones
www.mostlymuskies.com
716-432-0198
On the Niagara River |
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| Mille Lacs and Vermillion get stocked (and they have natural reproduction). Pressure on natural occuring lakes might have (probably does) have a bigger effect than on lakes that get stocked too. |
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Posts: 384
Location: Eagle River, Alaska | Theis topic has moved off in a very interesting tangent. Having always lived in nthe westerj part of the US, and now in Alaska, I am always an interloper when fishing northeastern, midwest waters for musky. My first musky fishing experience was several years ago with Richard Collin.....I knew absolutely nothing about musky fishing and in the two days we fished, not only caught several musky but learned an awful lot about musky fishing from Richard. Even then he explained how things were out there although he never asked me not to fish in those areas again, I respected the way they have kept their waters producing large musky and understood. In Alaska I have several guide friends who sometimes we fish as guide and customer and after season as friends. I would never tell anyone about specific halibut holes these guys fish in some areas as they search hard for them and this is their livelihood and the fish are constantly moving around. Due to this respect, one of the guides I had hired to guide me showed up early the morning of our trip and told me he wasn't going to guide me that day and wouldn't accept any payment as we were going to fish one of his A spots he only takes out of staters too, and then infrequently. He asked me not to divulge the info as it would not be easy to ruin this little stream on the Kenai Peninsula.....the fishing was unbelievable....not for huge fish, but beautiful little dollies who obviously did not often see fishermen....true you could hear huge brown bears walking all around you in the bushes, with the fear of becoming bear poop at anytime very real...but what a hoot. This man has shown me other spots which I have respected, I may fish them but do not show them to others as he asked. Guiding is a tough business and it works differently in different places and everyone needs to respect that. If these stipulations are unacceptable...don't go there and look for a guide to piss off......perhaps there is a reason some of these Canadian waters have kept there natural reproducing waters healthy.......
Brian
Edited by DocEsox 2/27/2008 2:49 AM
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Posts: 97
| I have no experience out east, and in all likelyhood will more than likely never be able to get out there to fish. I do think that people are getting riled up because it has come across that some of the guides have staked there claim to a certain section of the river, which happens to be a public waterway. Some of the guides are claiming that too much pressure will hurt the fishery, but it is ok for them to exploit it for their personal gains, that is why I think peopleare getting PO'd.
This stretch of the river may be isolated now, but sooner or later like everywhere else, people will be encroaching on the area. Like it or not these guides will have to learn to deal with it. Times do change. |
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Posts: 5874
| So, is it the eastern guides being protective and secretive? Or the Locals, trying to keep out visitors by intimidation and vandalism?
Seems to be some difference in opinions here.
Edited by Shep 2/27/2008 10:09 AM
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Obfuscate Musky - 2/26/2008 12:36 PM
Seriously, then why is this not the case on Mille Lacs or Vermillion? Tons of pressure there and 40-50#'s are caught every year. If you fish with some of the top guides there I'd bet your chance at a 50+"er is probably close to the same as out east.
You cannot even come close to comparing the two. Everything is different from pressure to stocking vs. natural reproduction to the size and number of fish. This also is a new thing in MN and who knows how long it will last.
You are getting crowded here if there is another muskie fisherman within sight. LOL I never had to duck cowgirls or line up to fish a spot. We are not fishing puddles here, we can cover 50 miles of river on a daily bases.
Funny how Ben mentions this one area been way over protected, every time I go there I always run into people. I even like to get away once in a while to be alone and I know not to pick that area as the word gets out by the time you hit the gas station or the local Tim Hortons.
Angler attitude as something to do with it, an IL angler who's been coming here for years got his Van vandalized a few years ago. At that time I was told by friend when he was approached to shoot the chit he told them to F off. Naturally this friend is a cop so no association with this incident but who knows how many guys he told off that week.
I don't think guides can even ponder damaging people's property. I know I take my job seriously and do everything on the up and up as I need to feed my family. You can't do that from jail.
God I even got my truck vandalized at a regular launch last year but I think that's just a jealous guide.
I think if I treat my clients with the utmost respect I'll get the same in return. After many years we get to develop friendships with clients and always have a good time.
I guess all I can say is to each is own. You want peace and quit and chances at a fish of a lifetime then you best chance is out east. Some guides are not even available and some are not even worth the gas money just like everywhere else. |
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| Just read this post and am amazed.
I am from out east, not too far up from Richard.
Guys, there is a reason that most of your lakes are stocked, that you are constanlty looking for the next "Hidden Gem" pound the crap out of it and move to the next. Your bounty on the great Mille Lacs will soon be over as fast as it came.
Here since we are a little protective (call it anal if you like) our children will still be able to go out on OUR river and connect with giant fish in the same spots we have.
If you dont want too come, Oh well just more big fish for the rest of us. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | well once all the fish in mille lacs and the rest of mn are gone im sure everyone will go out east to catch the big ones so you cant protect your water for ever. |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | Shep - 2/27/2008 10:08 AM
So, is it the eastern guides being protective and secretive? Or the Locals, trying to keep out visitors by intimidation and vandalism?
Seems to be some difference in opinions here.
From what I read, it sounds like it is the locals who believe these eastern lakes/rivers are "their" private musky fisheries. Who is it to say that only they can fish what they believe is the finest musky fishery, and one of their excuses is "...our children will still be able to go out on OUR river and connect with giant fish in the same spots we have. " Seriously, that sounds a little funny... these are public waters. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Question: I have been toying with the idea of heading 'east' for some years now. Been researching places to stay, and procurring maps. I don't plan to hire a guide. I do plan on finding good water, ON MY OWN, albeit maybe not on the first trip. But, what if one of these spots that my wife and I find, just happens to be one of 'theirs'?
I can understand some of where they are coming from as we prefer to keep lightly pressured/big fish areas(the two often go hand in hand where we fish) we frequent around the midwest reigned in. However, I don't even think of slashing a tire, as more pressure comes to these areas. We have to live with it as the sport grows, and just try to keep a leg up in the search for more, and is what is so fun about the sport. So... should I expect 'trouble' when I head out there in 2010? I've found a few motels and resorts near/around some of the fishing grounds that I want to frequent. Should I expect vandalism to my rig at the resort, when folks learn I am fishing for muskies? Might think twice about heading over, unless I bring a few extra sets of Coopers ehh?.... Man..
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/26/2008 11:28 PM
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| While I have never fished OUT EAST--I have used my share of guides in Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota. I have been asked by guides in these areas to keep certain spots to myslef and to keep some of the smaller lakes they have showed me to myself. I DON'T FIND THIS OFFENSIVE AT ALL. These guys are making a living off of their knowledge and if they want me to keep it closed mouth I have no problem with that. I have refished some of these lakes and spots with other fisherman--I just kept it to myself about how I learned about them and jut fished over these spots and lakes as to not draw more attention to them. As far as the out east thing goes--IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEIR POLICIES THEN DON'T FISH THERE. Plenty of water to fish in North America. I also know of several landings in N. WI.. where vandalisum has occured on more than 1 occasion to Vehicles and trailers while out fishing. Some people just don't like others fishing their waters and seem to take out their anger on the owners vehicles. This will happen at even some in town landings while out night fishing!! It's hard for me to figure out BUT --they are just fish-- Some people must justn feel the need. |
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Posts: 159
Location: NYC (and many weeks in MN during summer) | I find some info in this thread pretty disturbing, and although it is a few months old, I'm sure things out east hasn't changed, YET. As with anything else, over time, as north America becomes more populated, it becomes harder and harder to keep natural resources protected against outside encroachers.
I live in NYC, and you can rest assured that if I ventured on my own, I surely wouldn't allow the locals OR guides to intimidate me. In fact, part of my research on the water would be with a set of binoculars.
Two rivers came on here and threw gasoline on the fire in a radically arrogant tone. My answer to him is that the water isn't yours (OURS as you described it.) heck, I'm vindictative enough that if I really felt strongly enough that I'd hire a guide for a week and I'd not only share that info here, I'd have it PUBLISHED in all the Muskie magazines.
On a side note, its fairly well known that the Indians (locals), have broken a window or slashed a tire or two at the public launches on Mille Lacs. So it does happen.
Randy |
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| Hey Randy, I just moved from NYC to CO...If you are looking to get out on some of the finest muskie waters south of the border, shoot me a PM. My brother goes to Greenwood a few times a week and Muskie Inc. chapter 22 is filled with great guys...Ben |
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Posts: 159
Location: NYC (and many weeks in MN during summer) | Hey Randy, I just moved from NYC to CO...If you are looking to get out on some of the finest muskie waters south of the border, shoot me a PM. My brother goes to Greenwood a few times a week and Muskie Inc. chapter 22 is filled with great guys...Ben
I'm in the middle of a 3 week fishing trip in Minnesota right now. My wife is house hunting in wayzata on lake Minnetonka, so I think I know how you feel about relocating. When I get back to NY, I'd sure appreciate getting in touch with your brother, as I have no one to fish fresh water with.
Thanks!!!
Randy |
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