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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ok, now that I got your attention, will there be another big money tourney like this again ??
Who would promote it / sponser it ?
Who would fish in it ?
I'm ready to fish in it , is anybody else interested ?
Jerome | |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Eventually, someone will step up and run a high dollar event. I'd cover it. | |
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| "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" | |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Do the math, it's going to take a $1500 entry fee Pro and $350 Co at LEAST for a field of 150 boats, some serious sponsorship bucks, and a dedicated promoter to make this idea happen.
The business AND the economy is in pretty tough shape right now, so I'm not holding my breath for this to happn this year, but one never says never. | |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | I think it will happen in the next few yearsand I'd certainly fish it. I also know that two guys are working on a $100,000 tournament and they have a boat sponsor pretty much onboard. My understanding is they would like to make first place a pair of beautiful boats rigged out. I think some of the other things mentioned to me were great and that they are on the right page but it won't happen this next summer. I wish them luck.
Pfeiff | |
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| I call for the Steve Worrall Classic in 2009 on Lake Julia!  | |
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Posts: 202
Location: Rhinelander | I'm in, need to catch a 50" on Saturday to qualify for Sunday | |
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| ...can I tape two together???? | |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Let's do it... RANGER BOATS MUSKIE SHOWDOWN '08... ROCK THE POND! I'll start making flyers 
Edited by Hammskie 1/16/2008 8:47 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve, we discussed this once and I have been thinking about it ever since.
I don’t know if a Pro/Am musky tourney would work. In my opinion Musky fishing is TOO! much about team work. It’s not like Bass and Walleye were in both anglers need to limit out to make the big bucks. And the amateur takes all of his or her cues from the Pro. Musky fishermen aren’t wired the same way. In a two day event many times 4 or less fish take the event, so team work is much more important. If a musky pro/am is run like bass and walleye the amateur can’t offer any advice on lures and locations, correct? I just don’t see there being a high demand from musky fishermen for that type of event. Especially if the amateur has to shell out $350, the luck component in musky fishing is higher than other species. Just based on numbers of fish needed to win.
I understand to make the jump into the Major bucks an event like this is needed, because it’s much harder to cheat with different boat random partners each day.
Maybe it could be solved with a Pro/Pro event, could even be combined with a Am/Am event. One day an angler is a captain and the next they are a ride along. The captain makes all the final locational decisions, but the rider can offer any advice they deem necessary, then the next day new partners are assigned and riders become captains. It would add a very interesting dynamic, points would be awarded on fish boated, both anglers in the boat would get the same points. So there would have to be some gamesmanship on what the two anglers told each other, but they both would be very interested contacting fish and in insuring any hooked fish made it into the net.
Entry could be $1000 a piece instead of $1500 and $350 for the same 150 field. Or you could do $1500 for 76 pros and $350 for 76 amateurs. From my perspective I would much rather fish an event like this rather than the Pro/Am version, where I didn’t get to make any decisions as the rider.
One major downfall to the format I just laid out. What happens if there are boat/equipment problems during the event? Now the rider is being penalized and there is really no recourse. What happens in a Pro/Am event if this happens? The amateur still has much invested.
Anyway just some thoughts, this seemed like a good place to share them.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike,
The Pro/Am format is an option, not a necessity. The idea there is to generate more sponsorship by drawing new folks into competitive angling and exposing the Co Angler to the process, and as a result, the Sponsor's products. Team events do work, but growth is 'slower' in that venue.
In the Tournament world using Pro/Am formats, the Co Angler offers ZERO advice of any kind, because they draw a new Pro each day and are prohibited from offering advice from the day before for obvious reasons. The $350 entry is cheap for what basically is a 2 or 3 day guided trip. Of course, the Co Angler acquires points for the zero entry fee championship which needs to be funded at about $250,000, and qualifies to win prizes during each event using the same point schedule as the Pros.
The draw for each Co matching each Pro happens by computer during the event, so a Pro has no idea who his Co is until the night before the event. this model has been in place with circuits like the PWT and FLW for years, and works very well.
If a rig breaks down during the event, that's the way it goes unless the Pro or his Co has a back-up rig. breaks of the game, so to speak. If the event is classy enough and will get necessary media attention, Mercury and Evinrude could be talked in the attending with a service trailer. The other motor brands attend a few events, but I would not hold my breath they would look at this one with a support team until it's proven.
Entry for the event HAS to generate at least $1850 per boat. Here's why:
Each event, one needs a Headquarters, preferably not at a bar. One needs a tournament Trailer with all the trappings, computers, etc, up front if the idea is a circuit. If it's a single event, the event center needs to be media friendly, and able to hold a few hundred folks for the daily 'tally'. And so on...it's expensive to run an event like this.
Expenses are obvious, one needs a crew on hand, has to pay same, etc. this is a TON of work by quite a few folks to do really well, take a look at any FLW or PWT production.
Sure, it's not as hard to do a kitchen chair supported dry erase leaderboard, meet at a bar or cheap wedding rental hall, and use a couple pallets for a stage if one HAS a stage. But a quarter of a million is serious jing, and the event, IMHO, would HAVE to be top shelf to draw in the needed dollars.
If the entry is $1850 per boat on the water, that generates $277,500. If $250,000 goes to first place, you are already broke. Payouts need to go at least 35 places. If the payout is TOTAL $250,000, then you would break down the payout like an FLW or PWT Tour event, with first place in the $60 K range for the Pro, and $10K range for the Co. Sponsorships from endemics and non endemics will pay for the rest at about $350,000, but one needs to have those in place up front, and in this economy, that won't be easy to accomplish.
We would cover an event like this for certain, employing the model we use at WalleyeFIRST covering the Pro Walleye events and FLW League.
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I'm curious what constitutes a Pro vs. an Am.
Does not having participated in tournaments make you an Am?
Or is there some way of ranking based on skill, or number or years fishing?
JS | |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Not really, John, there's not yet any ranking model out there for muskie anglers. A Pro can also be called a Boater, and a Co can also be called a Non Boater. Just sounds bad, and won't do anything for the circuit or event. keep in mind 'Pro' can also mean 'Promotional', as well as 'Professional'.
Here's the WWR ranking for the Walleye Pros. Serious stuff.
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/rankings.asp
Click on any Pro, and look at the overall profile.
Note that the total top 200 Top Ten Most Popular clicks in the last week are nearly 12,000. This is a popular section of our Walleye News and Information coverage. Skarlis leads that cataagory now because he was recently crowned the WalleyeFIRST Ironman Champion. The Ironmen fish all the events from both PWT and FLW, including the championship, to qualify to win. WalleyeFIRST pays an entry fee into an FLW tour or PWT Regional event for the winner.
Established circuits in bass and walleye can have a selection process a Pro has to go through.
Here's what daily coverage of the big fish at a Cass Lake, MN In Fish Professional Walleye trail event look like. Notice the trailer and production by the PWT, this is shot for In Fish TV as well.
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/play_flash.asp?clip=605
While shooting that video, WalleyeFIRST has a live leaderboard underway with live audio and an interactive chat room attached to the leaderboard. Folks from all over the world of walleye join that Live leaderboard and ask questions, listen to the weigh in and get our live color commentary.
Here's what I look like doing that stuff, it's a blast!
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion |
I don't know if I would like fishing with a different partner every day.
What If he blows a net job, or gets his lures hung up on rocks or wood most of the day. I don't want to waste my time dealing with someone I don't know or can't reley on.
I'm more interested in fishing a couple of big dollar muskie tourneys as a TEAM and not with a different co-angler each day.
I'm thinking 125-150 boats paying down to 15th place with $85,000. as 1rst place
$35,000. 2nd
$25,000. 3rd
$ 20,000. 4th
$ 15,000. 5th on down to 15th place. or something along this line.
$2000. entry fee per team
You wouldn't have to call this a "Pro" muskie tournament, anyone could fish it...
The PMTT has only a handful of full time muskie guys (Pros) that make a living within the sport.... Most of the other 97% that fish the PMTT are just every day normal people with a passion to compete at a higher level.
MR. Worrall, At this point Im not sure if the concept of the FLW and the PWT will work for a muskie tournament trail because Im not quite sold on the co-angler deal.
Example:
Day1, I have a good idea where a couple of hogs are and have had them follow my bait back to the boat with no results.
Day 2, I go back to this spot and my co-angler boats the fish that I have been working, where(as the Pro) does this leave me ?
The team format still makes more sense to me as a competator.
Jerome
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Location: Rhinelander, WI |
Jerome,
From the conversations I have had, the way I understand it is Musky Tourneys have pretty much topped out as far as pay out. To get the sponsors to shell out the MAJOR buck for individual events like this they need to be assured of the integrity of the competition. When it’s all said and done they don’t want any controversy surrounding their name and hence there products reputation.
I don’t think team musky events give this level of confidence. Big money bass and walleye events evolved the way they did for this very reason. It’s hard to come up with a good plan to cheat if you don’t know who your partner is going to be from event to event and day to day. It only takes 0.001% of a bad apple to screw up the entire process and scare people away. People risk 10 years in jail for a couple hundred bucks out of a convenience store cash register, what are they willing to do for $20,000, $50,000 or even $100,000.
Look at the Simply fishing event, they couldn’t get the big dollar sponsors so the entry fee was set extremely high, and it couldn’t sustain itself to last two years in a row. By the way I loved the format of that event, I think it was the best thing going to remove the element of luck. To win you had to catch fish in three different phases of the event over 5 days. Consistency was KEY! Not getting lucky with a couple fish in only two days of fishing.
As to your last question, I am pretty sure the Pro and co-angler both score the same number of points, it doesn’t matter who catches the fish. But what do you do when the co-anglers line breaks because it’s 5 years old. With so little fish to be caught in musky fishing EVERY fish hooked is just more important. Hence the higher stock placed on team fishing.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I enjoyed fishing in the Mike James Mega tournament held by the PMTT a few years back. It was a $100,000.00 top prize tourney(boat and cash package), though it didn't have a full field, so the places didn't pay out the full amount. I think 1st place took about $80k(wish 2nd through 3rd still taking more than a normal events winner) but don't quote me as we only won enough to cover our expenses. I hope Tim and co. resurect this event again at some point, as I'd be all for it. Even better if it could be held somewhere that could benefit from a stocking program influence that the event could back.
Edited by Reef Hawg 1/16/2008 4:52 PM
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Don't know that I'd pay a grand entry to fish with an am. It is teamwork fishing muskies in tournaments. I think the comfort zone with a partner of your choice is critical to success. Again will a big tounament come about I think so and don't think its far of. Maybe Tom McGinnis has some thoughts on this as he has been running successfull tournaments for a few years now.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Top,
Points in the boat go to both anglers, no matter who catches the fish. It's up to the boat captain to 'educate' his Co Angler on his/her expectations with the net, etc. Gear and lures are controlled and provided by the Pro.
Mike, the Co Angler doesn't bring any equipment. He/she uses the Pro's tackle and throws what the Pro asks without challenge.
The Co angler has to convince the Promoter he/she has a handle on fishing, is well versed as a Muskie angler, and is physically capable of handling what can be a very tough day on the water.
Complete newbies wouldn't be 'encouraged' to enter.
This format works well for many fresh and saltwater events. Team events also work, but Mike hit on part of the team concept problems.
Another working concept is the Pro/Observer format, but that takes WAY more media coverage/sponsor money and entry dollars than Muskie is ready to support.
SO far the Team concept in hasn't taken Muskie Circuits to the level of an FLW League event.
No format has. 'Successful' Muskie circuits to date don't compare even to a Masters Walleye Circuit event. That's not the fault of the anglers, it's the size of the business and limited sponsor and entry dollars at work.
I heard the same objection from MWC Walleye Pro Teams when the In Fish Professional Walleye Trail started the Pro/Co format, Don. Proved to be not at all an issue.
'Watch this space', however, much will change before too awful long.
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion |
Steve,
Thanks for clearing up some questions about the Co and there responsabilites.
I'm starting to like this concept more and more, but I still lean more toward the team format.
Hopfuly someone will help make something like this happen in the near future.... Jerome | |
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| define a muskie "pro", the only ones i can think of are the guides out there. muskie fishing isnt like the big bass or salt tourney's where a person can make a living at it as far as tourney's go, the only real living being made from it are the guides......and i dont think you could get 150+ guides to fish this thing. In the grand scheme of it....it isnt that popular either (muskie fishing)...unless you live in MN or Wi. I also think that muskie fishing is by far more of a team effort than any other kind of fishing.....both anglers play a huge role in cathing the fish. I also feel keeping the big money/corporate side away is better for the fish, things tend to become less important when there is a lot of money at stake (fish handling) plus i just dont think the "past-time" is that popular outside our circles. | |
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| One other thing to keep in mind.In the FLW/PWT walleye Pro/Am the "Pro/Boater" is responsible to provide ALL tackle during the event............ | |
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Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve, thanks for clearing more things up.
Guest defining a Pro is simple in an event like this, especially as it gets started. A Pro is someone who can come up the equipment and dollars and guts to enter an event like this. Nothing more to it. Even Pro bass and walleye guys start some place, probably in similar events to the big ones. They start out spending their own money and as they make a name for themselves sponsors start paying more of the bills. Many professional sports are like this, especially car and bike racing. I know a kid that is an Arena Cross racer, when he started out it was all his and his parents’ money. Now he is fully sponsored and actually gets paid to race win or loose, plus he keeps all the prize money.
As to the end of your paragraph some great points.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 1/17/2008 8:37 AM
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Guest,
Not too many are 'making a living' in the Walleye world JUST fishing tournaments, either. That doesn't stop the FLW and PWT from paying out up to $60K and more top prize to the Pro in each event. Muskie fishing is one of the few and is the largest growing segment in fresh water fishing, so eventually, this will happen. it's not an 'if', it's a 'when'.
There are certainly enough muskie anglers out there who would enjoy a shot at this to fill a 150 boat field if the money is right. Whether the angler is fishing for fun or $60K has absolutely nothing to do with fish handling, except if the fish doesn't release at boatside in competition, it doesn't count. Tournament anglers are usually very well versed in fish handling and wouldn't abuse the fish any more or less than say...you or me.
Wallytap, you are right, and that was already pointed out. | |
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| As a "seasoned' Co-angler in the FLW Walleye Tour and Leagues, and a Boater last year in the FLW League, I think I can offer some insight in this discussion, and answer questions and concerns about a Pro(Boater)/Co-angler tournament Series. I will refer to the Pro(Boater) as a Pro in the rest of this.
First of, let me state that, IMO, the only way there will be a cintinuing big money, big time Muskie Tourney Series, is to go to a Pro/Co-angler format. There is just too much risk of outright cheating in the team format for a Big dollar tourney series to attract major sponsorship money. If you want to argue that, look at what happens when there is $10 or $20K tourneys. Not saying every one was won by cheaters, but cheaters were competing in them. Biggest way to scare off sponsors is have an incident such as last year. You think it was limited to that team, and just last year?
To answer the Pro question? As stated, if you have the money, the boat, and the nads to enter as a Pro/Boater, then by gosh, you are a Pro. You don't HAVE to have the experience, knowledge, best equipment, be a guide, a full time tourney angler, or anything that normally is associated with the term Pro. That's why Boater/Co-angler is used in the FLW League events.
The way the Pro's and Co's are paired is by draw. If it is a one day event, like the Leagues, then you find out your partner the night before at the rules meeting. If it's a two, or more day event, you find out the next day's partner at the weigh in/leaderboard. A Co-Angler may not share any informationfrom the previous day, with the current day partner. The Pro is responsible for all equipment and bait/lures. The Co will only bring clothing, food and drink, sunscreen, etc, into the boat.
Now, to address the concerns about teamwork being essential in Muskie fishing, or at least Muskie Tourneys. I agree, teamwork is essential. But not just for muskie fishing. Most often, in the Pro/Co Walleye tourneys, the winners ususally have great partners each day, and work very well together. The Pro determines where, how, and with what, they will fish, and will control the boat above idle speed.
Trust me when I say this. The Pro's are not the only entrants concerned about getting a bad draw! Good Pro's can overcome the limitations of their Co-Anglers. It's ALOT more difficult for a Co-angler to overcome the limitations of their Pro!
I think a Pro/Co Muskie Circuit could work. The big thing is getting the major sponsor. I can almost garrantee that this sponsor will not be a msukie fishing related sponsor. Something along the lines of the WalMart FLW, for this series to be successful, I think a major sponsor from outside the industry will be required. It will be something like a Home Depot, WalGreens, Festival Foods, Lowes, etc. to be sold on the advantage and exposure this tourney will bring to them.
With the right format, marketing, logistics, personalities, and many other things, this could work. It'll be interesting to see if something could spin out of the current FLW program. Afterall, it used to be one Bass series that has grown to 8 Bass series, then they added two Walleye series. Now they have RedFish, Kingfish, and Striper series. Can you see the FLW Home Depot Muskie League?
Perhaps start with State Leagues, and then add a Big Money Tour? If they'd follow the same format, you could have payouts of $60K to the winner, with Boat and Motor contingency's adding an additional $30K. Entry of $1,500 for the Pro, and $400 for the co-angler for a 3 or 4 day event, with cuts on the last day to the top ten. | |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Wow.... lots of opinions and ideas being shared.
I'm a little confused on the PRO and CO concept for a musky tourney. What incentive would there be for either contestant?
Why would anyone want to enter as a PRO?
Why would anyone want to enter as a CO?
With these types of events.... are there two types of sponsorship? An event sponsor to inflate the Prize Purse and then PRO sponsors to offset the Pro's higher entry fee??? Looks like I need to learn a lot more about this format before I can offer an opinion. Otherwise, I'm in the "TEAM" camp and not open to the Pro/Co concept.
I'd rather fish one 5-day elimination event for $100,000 1st Place Cash than three 2-day events with a $30,000 1st Place Cash payout. The 5-day event actually ends up being less of a time commitment.... and it reduces the "luck factor" enough that the investment for entering is less risky. | |
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| jlong - 1/17/2008 12:26 PM
Wow.... lots of opinions and ideas being shared.
I'm a little confused on the PRO and CO concept for a musky tourney. What incentive would there be for either contestant?
Why would anyone want to enter as a PRO?
Why would anyone want to enter as a CO?
With these types of events.... are there two types of sponsorship? An event sponsor to inflate the Prize Purse and then PRO sponsors to offset the Pro's higher entry fee??? Looks like I need to learn a lot more about this format before I can offer an opinion. Otherwise, I'm in the "TEAM" camp and not open to the Pro/Co concept.
I'd rather fish one 5-day elimination event for $100,000 1st Place Cash than three 2-day events with a $30,000 1st Place Cash payout. The 5-day event actually ends up being less of a time commitment.... and it reduces the "luck factor" enough that the investment for entering is less risky.
Incentives are the normal. Competition for one.
On the pro side, potential for a big payday. Say $60K to win, with additional contingencys.
On the co side, Maybe $10K to win, win additional contingencys. Plus, if it is a multiple day event, you get 2, 3, or even 4 days to fish with the pros. Learn new water, techniques, how to work new, or old, baits, trolling, jigging, casting, etc. Hopefully you get great Pro's and essentially get several days for the price of a one day guide trip.
As with any tourney that has a decent payout, the tournament directors will have sponsorship, to add to the purse and pay the expenses. And the entrants will also have varying degrees of sponsorship to help with the expenses of fishing the tournaments. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, WI | Co-anglers are fishing against other Co-anglers and Pros are fishing against Pros for each respective prize pool.
Hope that makes sense check out this web page it gives a breakdown of the final results of a FLW event.
http://walleyeleague.flwoutdoors.com/tournament.cfm?cid=7&did=0&t=d...
Nail A Pig!
Mike
P.S. J, I would LOVE to see you as a Co-Angler in an event like this, especially if you were paired with a not so hot Pro. That would be great entertainment watching your tongue bleed from biting it so often. Think Pro my friend.
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| He better pair up with Dan W if he expects a shot at winning! | |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Shep,
Thanks for all of the great info...But....is there any way (in a team format) to reduce cheating 100% ?
Any ideas
If a pro/co-angler muskie event ever did happen I would enter as the pro/boater just to see how it works.
Thanks guys, Jerome | |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I might also point out the concept and support for same of an annual single event with an elimination concept didn't work out too well. Why?
Lots of reasons, including continuity and carry through, effectiveness ( or for that matter, lack of) of media coverage available for the short duration of the event, etc.
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Mike,
I'm thinking NO FREAKIN' WAY!
If the purse is not EQUAL between the PRO and CO... I see absolutely NO WAY they could fish together as a "team". To me... the format would simply be two guys fishing from the same boat. About the only incentive I'd see for a CO would be to basically get a GUIDED TRIP with the chance at winning a small amount of money.
For a MUSKY tournament... all I'd see for a benefit is it would be like having a JUDGE in each boat to verify a catch.... and that is about the ONLY benefit I'd see from such a format.
Count me out on such a format... as a PRO or a Co. Just not my cup of tea.
I think having FEWER tournaments with larger entry fees to fund the payout is about the only realistic option on the table. And for the really big payouts... I feel an elimination type format is important... otherwise you may as well go to Vegas and get into some legit High-Stakes gambling. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | jlong - 1/17/2008 2:16 PM
Mike,
I'm thinking NO FREAKIN' WAY!
If the purse is not EQUAL between the PRO and CO... I see absolutely NO WAY they could fish together as a "team". To me... the format would simply be two guys fishing from the same boat. About the only incentive I'd see for a CO would be to basically get a GUIDED TRIP with the chance at winning a small amount of money.
For a MUSKY tournament... all I'd see for a benefit is it would be like having a JUDGE in each boat to verify a catch.... and that is about the ONLY benefit I'd see from such a format.
Count me out on such a format... as a PRO or a Co. Just not my cup of tea.
I think having FEWER tournaments with larger entry fees to fund the payout is about the only realistic option on the table. And for the really big payouts... I feel an elimination type format is important... otherwise you may as well go to Vegas and get into some legit High-Stakes gambling.
Jlong,
You hit the nail on the head with part of your answer. I have a lot of experience with working on ProAm tournament format. The main reasons why guys fish a ProAm event is specifically is to shorten the learning curve. When I worked for the PWT, as a co-angler, there isn't a huge pay day for the amateur. But the main purpose is that your getting to fish multiple days with supposedly "pros" guys that know what there doing and hopefully learn from them and get to know new water. If your fishing as a co-angler for the payout, well, then your fishing the circuit for the very wrong reason.
Now don't get me wrong, there can be some very nice prizes, but nothing near what a Pro would get. The co-angler that wins a PWT event, he recieves a brand new Lund/Mercury boat package, valued about $15,000. Now I believe the guys on the FLW side get cash and a bit more than the PWT but still nothing near the Pro payouts. You have to take into consideration what kind of money the pro is dumping into the game versus a co-angler showing up a day before the event. I could write totals down for you to the cent if you'd like on what a pro spends, and let me tell you, it's nothing near what a co-angler can get away with spending.
But all in all, I think the ProAm would be a great thing. It sure would cut out any cheating going on. I was in the midst of issues happening, co-anglers don't have an issue coming up to a tournament director and saying hey, my pro did something wrong, am I going to get punished for it?
But just my thought.
Edited by Merckid 1/17/2008 2:43 PM
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Posts: 8772
| I wouldn't fish it. Seemed pretty appealing at first, but after seeing the way the Co/Pro thing is structured? No way.
The idea of entering as a Co doesn't bother me, but having to rely on someone else's gear? I trust MY equipment, because I am anal about maintaining it. I trust my ability to use it in a way that is effective, and to choose presentations that compliment my partners presentations. Part of what makes a good team is the contrast of ideas, different presentations, a different flair. Collaboration and teamwork, putting a fish in the boat that WE worked to put in the boat.
Fishing out of someone else's boat, using their gear, having them dictate everything? That's not a tournament, that's a LESSON. Which is fine, but not in a tournament.
When there's money on the line, I want to be able to use everything at our disposal. That means gear, ideas, planning strategies, and using what we figured out yesterday to put a fish in the boat today. And if I'm going to take money for fishing with a partner, I want to feel like we worked together to win that money.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What is the difference (as far as the 'gamble' entering the event) with an elimination format? The Pro, who after all is tallied, catches the most fish wins, the elimination format just takes out the guy who didn't connect enough the first couple days. Is that bad luck...or something else? That said, I'd like to see the field narrowed to 10 as of the last day for promotional reasons. Easier to put am media person in 10 boats than the top 30. And, the top ten get some great press on the final day. 'Making the cut' is pretty cool.
I'll take a shot at clearing it up
The Boater/Pro:
Usually is a seasoned angler who has the gear, abilities, dough, and as Shep put it, Nads to go for the brass ring. This format accentuates the Pro's abilities, showcases them in fact. This the sponsors want.
He/She runs the boat, makes all the calls, and has all the gear. As Shep so aptly described, both the Pro and the Co hope for a good draw. There are incentives including awards for the Pro who is 'best respected' for his/her interaction with the Co every day; this isn't something that the Tournament overlooks. Pre event meetings for the Co Anglers are held to let them know what is expected of them, same thing for the Pros. Look to the top tier PMTT guys, they are 'Pros' who might fit this model.
As the circuit ages, the cream will naturally rise to the top and a 'top 50' emerges. if there are more than one large circuit, a top 100 or even top 200 can be defined. Those who desire to be at the top and are not yet there compete for that reason, plus many more too numerous to go into; a 'living' strictly fishing tournaments isn't one of them with those who make it and fish every year.
One has to 'start' somewhere, so it's the field of Co Anglers who supply the most new ' Boaters' or 'Pros'. In the walleye world, some Co Anglers come form the Team circuit formats, ready to train for the Big Leagues. The FLW added an additional ladder up with the FLW League, a circuit with extensive talent, and a place to try it out and see if this sort of thing is 'for you' without the attempt to go Pro from the start.
The Co Angler is usually a person who chases the fish alot, is pretty well versed on how to catch them, but is not yet at the level of experience of the Pro/Boater. The Co usually has a good rig, but usually his/her dream rig is what they fish from during the event. Some of the Cos enter a single event a year as a vacation or special getaway. Some fish the whole circuit because it's a challenge and is fun. Some fish as a Co to learn the ropes and the whole layout of how it's done, with the intent of someday entering as a Boater. And, 10 to 15 grand isn't anything to sneeze at, there's lots of team events that don't pay that out for first place.
Not to mention some of the Co Anglers just want badly to get in the boat and spend a few days with some of the best promoted talent out there just to be able to say, "I fished a day with Mr. Walleye Gary Roach himself, and he said I was a great...". It's a 'celebrity' sort of issue, and that is driven by...
The Media.
Addict,
You think like a Boater. It'd be your gear, your plan, and your pattern developed from the day before. You'd make for a crabby Co Angler, I fear...and the Pros oddly enough don't usually offer to give $50 K (Half of a fully qualified FLW Tour Win last year) to the Cos who fished with them when it's all said and done. You win, you earned it.
Interestingly, there are many Pros on one circuit who fish as a Co on another to 'check it out', or have to take a break for financial or other reasons and still want to be 'in the game' so fish as a Co a couple events. | |
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| Keep an open mind, Jason. Why does the disparity in payouts bother you so? You are not competing with the Co-angler. You are competing with the other Pros. Trust me, you get the right Co, and he'll work just as hard as you do to try to make your team for that day a success.
As for incentive for the Co? Yes, the one you metioned is valid. But Steve has included other incentives. Just think of it. Your co-anglers leave the tourney, and tell all their friends. "I got to fish with Jason Long. He won that $80K Bob M tourney. Man, did I ever learn alot. The guy is a machine. He can see through, and walk on, water! Man, what a day! Best money I ever spent. Did I mention I got to net a 45" er for him? That was cool!"
Addict, I see you as a boater anyway, but just to answer your question. It's not llike the Pro has to call all the shots. I know I would try to determine my Co's experience, and maybe even familiarity with the water. If I felt, I could allow him to choose the lure he wanted. It's not a hard and fast rule that the co can't offer anything. Just cannot provide pattern or location info from the previous days Pro.
As for eliminating cheating in a team format. No way to 100% eliminate it. If two guys want to cheat, they'll find a way to, and will try. About the best deterrent is the polygragh. That and threat of legal action and prosecution. But I am not saying the Pro/Am format is perfect either. You will need other teams to be watching, and reporting suspicious activity.
Steve really shed a lot of light on the Pro/Am format. | |
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Posts: 8772
| "You'd make for a crabby Co Angler, I fear... "
LOL!! It would depend on the pro, Steve. There are many guys out there who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, who honestly I'd be honored just to spend a day with them in the boat. It's part of why I hire guides, and as many here have witnessed, I usually just sort of... absorb. I do that because their level of skill, knowledge, and experience is of great value to me, and I trust that my input is not needed or welcomed.
But in a tournament, the idea of teamwork and collective accomplishment is what appeals to me. I wouldn't fish a tournament with someone if I felt I couldn't make a valid contribution beyond just having another body in the boat casting.
I suppose that media, sponsorship, and "celebrity" are what drives this sort of event though, and that's a whole different thing. My passion is figuring out (and catching) these fish. I'd like to be accomplished enough at it some day to make some money doing it. But I have no desire to be a celebrity, or even be around them. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, WI | Regarding the Pro/Am format, my first instinct was this will never work in the musky world. However as I think about it more and realize that the Musky World is MUCH bigger than the Internet Musky World, this would probably work pretty well.
Probably not the best cup of tea for many die hard musky guys. Most of the guys that frequent these sites think as pros(boaters) like Steve says. That’s why we are here we are putting next years game plan together. But man it still amazes me the number of people that fish multiple events and the entire circuit of the PMTT and WMT. There are some guys I know that only fish musky when they are fishing a tourney or prefishing for a tourney. Those are the type of people that would fish an event like this.
I also think there are enough up and coming musky fishermen with lots of coin in there pocket that would jump at the chance to spend 2 or 3 days on the water with someone who knows what they are doing. The assumption is that the pro has at least spent some time on the body of water in question. These guys typically don’t spend hours a week on the internet trying to get better. They fish when they can fish and don’t think much about it otherwise. Those are your co-angers.
Steve nothing completely eliminates the luck factor from fishing good or bad, even more so for musky fishing. But any event that requires catching fish on multiple days makes the cream rise that much higher. Catching multiple fish in one or two days using the same pattern, does not impress me as much as catching multiple fish over the course of 4 or 5 days with changing weather conditions. There is still luck involved but skill will win more often. Now a circuit does pretty much the same thing, because you need to earn points in each event on many different lakes over many differing weather conditions. The tournament musky fishermen that impress me the most are the guys that are consistently finishing in the top 10 teams of the year when all the events are said and done. That's where the big bucks should go.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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| What's a pro in the muskie world? | |
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| Anyone who can pony up the dollars to enter as a pro and has a boat. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Baldy,
'Pro' also stands for 'Boater' in this case until that can be established by a few years running data on a circuit or two. In short order that question goes away. Same question was asked of the 'bass world' and the 'walleye world' not all that long ago.
'Pro' can mean Promotional as well as Professional, and the terms are used simultaneously.Pro Staff for most products means Promotional, far as I can see. | |
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| I think addict needs a boat first to be a "boater" ey?
I don't see the pro/co format ever taking off in the muskie world. imo. | |
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Posts: 8772
| You sir, are a pro in the muskie world. Why, you've even got a lure business!!
I've spent a big chunk of my life in the music business, which as an artist is about as lucrative as musky fishing. Technically you are considered a "professional" musician if you are currently being paid, or have ever been paid to practice your craft. "making a living at it" is a relative term. I know many "professional musicians" who are technically making their living at music. Many of them share an apartment in the city in a shady part of town with 5 of their friends and sometimes don't eat because they can't afford food.
To me, a "professional" in the musky world is someone who makes enough money in various things musky fishing that they don't need to have a regular job.
Now that I think about it... I'm not sure I know anyone like that
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The Team Concept hasn't exactly taken the Muskie fishing world by storm, either. Show me any Muskie event ever that looks remotely like this:
2007 FLW Tour Final
Ist photo, Day Two FLW Championship, The Cut to the Top Ten
Location, Celeveland, Ohio, Lake Erie
2nd Photo: Final Day Big Fish Award
3rd photo: Hot seat for current leader as last angler weighs, yes that's Al Lindner sitting on the edge of the stage doing an interview.
4th and 5th photo
Crowning the Champion
The last image is of the National Anthem at the start of Day Three, at the beginning of the day as the field got ready to hit the water. The pros and Cos are looking at a production stage with a guest singer, the Mayor, and a Senator handy.
This was supposedly impossible a few years back; many of the same arguments I see here in this thread.
The media was there in force, including Lindner Media, shooting the event for TV and a host of other TV, radio, and web media.
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Location: Frankfort, IL | I fished the PMTT Cass Lake this year with Josh Borovsky when his partner Troy Zuelke couldn't make it. To me as a non-boater it was a great opportunity to fish a tournament with an accomplished guide and tournament angler. Josh initially posted that he was looking for a partner here on MuskieFirst and I jumped at the opportunity.
Initially Josh was concerned about fishing a tournament with an unknown. I agreed to pay his guides fees for the days (he had a baby on the way and could use the guaranteed cash) and I had the option of spliting the entrance fees/winnings or he would cover the fees and take the winnings. I took the first.
We spoke on the phone a couple times before the event about his expectations and he demonstrated his preferred netting techniques, proper figure 8ing, fish fighting, etc. during our "lengthy" 45 minutes of prefishing.
I think Josh would attest that I worked as hard as anyone (burning DCG's at warp speed all day is hard work) who has shared a boat with him as I didn't want to embarass him or myself.
It was a wonderful experience for myself and one that I would like to repeat as often as possible.
Ken Moss | |
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| I fished the PMTT Cass Lake this year with Josh Borovsky ... I agreed to pay his guides fees for the days ... and I had the option of spliting the entrance fees/winnings ...
It was a wonderful experience for myself and one that I would like to repeat as often as possible.
thanks for posting that, Ken.
when i saw Josh's deal last year, i was very curious if anyone would take him up on the offer, and how it would go. sounds like it worked out well for both of you.
i can see the incentive from the "CO" point of view, much like in your case, you're essentially paying for a couple days of guided fishing, it just happens to be during a competitive event.
it's harder to see the incentive for the "PRO" if the entry fees are that much higher. in your case, the Pro/Co paid equal entry fees. higher Pro fees would put a lot of pressure on getting sponsors willing to pay for them, etc., and i don't know if there's enough of that to go around at this point in the muskie tournament world.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | BALDY - 1/17/2008 3:51 PM
What's a pro in the muskie world?
LMAO ... that's a good one Baldy
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