Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?
mgoody
Posted 10/22/2007 10:53 PM (#280832)
Subject: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 11


Location: Wisconsin
My fishing partners and I will drag a sucker as we cast while moving around the lake with the electric motor, as I assume many of you do. We typically fish on "trolling leagal" waters. would this method be considered trolling, therefore illegal on non-trolling waters in northern Wi? We are not looking to bend the rules. If it is against the law, we won't do it.

Thanks,
Mike
muskie! nut
Posted 10/23/2007 6:44 AM (#280854 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 2894


Location: Yahara River Chain
What you just described is trolling. Using the trolling motor to go around the lake dragging a sucker is trolling. The only way you can use a trolling motor on non-trolling lakes in WI is if you are drifting and need to make small corrections in your drift. This is considered "positioning" fishing which is allowed.
PANTLEGGER
Posted 10/23/2007 8:25 AM (#280867 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 176


Location: Tomahawk, WI
Here we go again.
BNelson
Posted 10/23/2007 8:31 AM (#280868 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Location: Contrarian Island
yup, here we go again!
I use suckers in the fall but mine are straight down over the side of the boat with 1-2 oz of lead to keep the line vertical...I'll continue to do it that way whether I get a ticket or not... now the guys with 3 -4 out on bobbers dragging them around...I think they are askin for it!
sworrall
Posted 10/23/2007 8:34 AM (#280869 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I think Brad nailed it.
PANTLEGGER
Posted 10/23/2007 9:02 AM (#280876 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 176


Location: Tomahawk, WI
I agree. Hope this ends it. If you want to view all the arguments, go look in the archives.
MACK
Posted 10/23/2007 9:09 AM (#280878 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 1086


Interesting topic. One that I haven't seen in the years past...and for the reason that I say that is, I don't see nor read all topics all the time on this board due to time limitations.

I'm in Indiana, where we don't have the trolling limitations/laws that the Wisc. folks do.

If it's not too painful and not too much trouble, and without stepping on anyones toes and not to bring up a topic again that appears to have been talked about a lot and probably beaten like a dead horse...I'm asking in a kind way, for my, as well as others, education...what's the difference if there's a sucker straight down under a boat and you're moving around the lake vs. a sucker straight down beneath a bobber that's 20-30 feet behind the boat and you're moving around?

I'm afraid I'm opening up some past dead issues. I apologize for that in advance since that seems to be the case.

Just seems odd that there's a difference of that boat being beneath the boat vs. being beneath a bobber? Is the number of suckers under bobbers the culprit?

Just curious.
PANTLEGGER
Posted 10/23/2007 9:21 AM (#280879 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 176


Location: Tomahawk, WI
Mack, sorry if i came off negative, but you are correct, the topic was beat to death. I believe the conclusion was, it would be up to your friendly local game warden if it is considered trolling or not. People have contacted thier game wardens with conflicting answers.
Shep
Posted 10/23/2007 9:44 AM (#280882 - in reply to #280879)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 5874


I have the same stance as Brad. Imagine that!

The difference is that the law is written that your line must be verticle where it enters the water in order for it to be considered position fishing.

You can find a lot of discussion on this if you do a search here. Stupid rule and poorly written. It all depends on the warden you contact. Some will say if you have a sucker and TM in the water, you're trolling, and they will write the citation. I'd take it to court and win it.
MACK
Posted 10/23/2007 9:47 AM (#280884 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 1086


Not a problem. Trust me...I know what it's like to constantly rehash the same topics over and over and over again on here with new people coming on to the board everyday wanting to ask the same questions that have been covered numerous times.

What I find to be a challenge when looking in the archives for certain topics, such as this, it's tough to find what you're looking for, unless the topic of the thread has the keyword or you're able to have a very, defined word to search for to find what you're looking for so that it helps minimize the number of found results. Sometimes...I find that topic I'm often looking for have been buried within another thread that started off as a totally different subject, hence, it can be time consuming going the route of the archives.

No worries. Thanks for the short, sweet, simple explanation. That's all that was needed.

Sounds like such a fine line up there. I'm glad we don't have those limitations and restrictions down here. I'm sorry those that are up there in those areas, do.

Carry on. All's good....
nwild
Posted 10/23/2007 9:52 AM (#280885 - in reply to #280879)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 1996


Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain
I have discussed this with various DNR personel including the Warden Supervisor for Oneida County.

The actual position fishing law states that you may use a trolling motor to move about a piece of structure while maintaining a vertical line most of the time.

What does that mean? First off it means no floats. If you are using a float or bobber if you will, while also using your trolling motor you are by definition trolling. The bobber at that point is no different than a planer board.

If you use the tactic Brad outlined above you are legal, as long as you maintain a vertical line most of the time. You are allowed to stray from vertical occasionally, but the line must be vertical most of the time. To accomplish this you must slow way down, and fish areas very methodically.

To legally fish suckers on nontrolling lakes you need to lose the bobbers and maintain a vertical line while working slowly about structures.
BNelson
Posted 10/23/2007 9:58 AM (#280886 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Location: Contrarian Island
Norm...or use lots of weight! I think some of my bell sinkers are 2.5 oz and those suckers stay down!
I can't wait to hear the first clicker go off of the season....guys that don't fish w/ suckers or don't like it sure are missin some fun stuff!
click click click clickkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

I've seen some guys from IL (no not pickin on IL guys) on a lake I fish that had no less than 3 bobbers out...they are using quick strikes and do release the fish and seem like nice guys but part of me wants to call the warden on them...what would you guys do?

Edited by MSKY HNR 10/23/2007 10:01 AM
TJ DeVoe
Posted 10/23/2007 10:12 AM (#280888 - in reply to #280886)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 2323


Location: Stevens Point, WI
I've already been in that situation this year Brad. They too were from IL. So I simply said, sir, you are trolling, trolling is illegal in Wisconsin. He got a bit upset and tried to say he was position fishing. I said sir, no, not when your trolling motor is on constant. He proceeded the way he was going until I said sir, I have the warden on speed dial, I don't have an issue making the call. He quit pretty quickly.

But if I were you Brad, a simple reminder to them first, if they don't listen, then take further action. You can always call the warden, and the warden should keep confidentiality. Or just call the DNR tip line.
esoxaddict
Posted 10/23/2007 10:15 AM (#280889 - in reply to #280886)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 8824


Brad, I'd call the warden. They probably have no idea that what they are doing is illegal, but still. You don't want to ruin anyone's day, but if they're dragging suckers around on bobbers like you described, they ARE trolling.
0723
Posted 10/23/2007 10:17 AM (#280892 - in reply to #280889)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 5193


It is trolling and like someone said some game wardens might write you a ticket.Bill
MACK
Posted 10/23/2007 10:21 AM (#280893 - in reply to #280885)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 1086


nwild - 10/23/2007 9:52 AM

I have discussed this with various DNR personel including the Warden Supervisor for Oneida County.

The actual position fishing law states that you may use a trolling motor to move about a piece of structure while maintaining a vertical line most of the time.

What does that mean? First off it means no floats. If you are using a float or bobber if you will, while also using your trolling motor you are by definition trolling. The bobber at that point is no different than a planer board.

If you use the tactic Brad outlined above you are legal, as long as you maintain a vertical line most of the time. You are allowed to stray from vertical occasionally, but the line must be vertical most of the time. To accomplish this you must slow way down, and fish areas very methodically.

To legally fish suckers on nontrolling lakes you need to lose the bobbers and maintain a vertical line while working slowly about structures.


Great explanation. Thanks! :thumbsup:
C_Nelson
Posted 10/23/2007 10:23 AM (#280895 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.

Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:53 AM
nwild
Posted 10/23/2007 10:24 AM (#280896 - in reply to #280892)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 1996


Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain
Here is the actual definition of position fishing from the DNR regulations.

“Position fishing” is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the
water while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position
or maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters

To be in the spirit of the position fishing laws the line needs to extend vertically into the water, impossible when dragging a bobber.

While the results are basically the same, the bobber does make it by definition illegal.

Edited by nwild 10/23/2007 10:27 AM
MACK
Posted 10/23/2007 10:32 AM (#280899 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 1086


Do I dare ask what you are or are not allowed to do in WI in regards to using the drift from the wind to move you down a breakline or across a weed flat, all the while, soaking a sucker, on a down rod, directly beneath the boat all the while casting? That allowed?

I love using the wind to drift fish if the wind is blowing out of the right direction to allow you to move your boat down a particular breakline or structure area...

What's the law on using the wind for boat movement?
sworrall
Posted 10/23/2007 10:38 AM (#280900 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Chuck, Norm is correct. Use a bobber and pull it along, and the definition goes from position fishing to trolling, as stupid as that seems.
C_Nelson
Posted 10/23/2007 10:59 AM (#280906 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.

Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:54 AM
clint
Posted 10/23/2007 12:25 PM (#280913 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


I just wish we could drag suckers. In Mn you can only have one line in per person. I need to cast!!! Once in a while when my son is with he will take a break and drag one. But he is in school again, just at prime time!! How mad do you think mom would be if he were to play....hooky .? Good luck out there!
Clint
Shep
Posted 10/23/2007 2:34 PM (#280940 - in reply to #280913)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 5874


Chuck, you will lose that arguement with some wardens. Hope you don't meet up with a Cletus type Warden. His position was, "If you are hunting or fishing, you are doing something illegal. It's my job to figure out what that is." Not saying you won't win in court, but you don't win arguements in the field. Don't ask me how I know 3 times.

As for driffting, no problem. Put out your bobbers. Just make sure they are pulled before you use that TM. Remember the verticle line thing.

As for calling a Warden? I wouldn't. Why bring attention to your lake, and potentially you. Threaten to call, maybe. But unless they are really doing something bad, like over harvesting, or poaching, spearing, etc, I would leave it alone. Just my issues with avoiding Warden contact.

My own experience is that I catch more fish with the sucker next to the boat than I do when using bobbers out behind the boat. Just me, but muskies aren't skeert of the boat, so why go through all the hassle of trying to get baits away from it?

Edited by Shep 10/23/2007 2:37 PM
MACK
Posted 10/23/2007 3:37 PM (#280947 - in reply to #280940)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 1086


Shep - 10/23/2007 2:34 PM

Hope you don't meet up with a Cletus type Warden. His position was, "If you are hunting or fishing, you are doing something illegal. It's my job to figure out what that is."



You know...it's really unfortunate that that most likely is the case with most C.O.s/Wardens. Such a bummer. I mean...every time I'm in my boat and every New Year, at the start of the year, I always go through my checklist to make sure I've dotted my "i's" and crossed my "t's" to make sure I'm in compliance with anything and everything that I can think of as to NOT be doing anything wrong. I always obey speed limits and lake rules, lines per person rules, everyone in my boat having a license, having my DNR State Park permit on my hull along with the boat reg numbers clearly visible with contrasting colors from my hull with my annual reg sticker, carry the necessary lights, fire extinguisher, the number of life jackets to the numbers of people that my boat is C.G. regulated for, flares and flare gun, yada, yada, yada, yada...I could go on.

It's sad that people C.O.s and Wardens out there will go out of their way to nitpick those of us that put and honest effort into our passionate sport, yet, could probably find some, small, "red tape" b.s. type of a thing to ruin our day, month, year, season etc.

I can't tell you how many times I see others out there blatantly doing stuff wrong that visible from clear across a lake....yet...it's those of us that try....get "harrassed."

Fortunately, knock on wood, I haven't had any issues....yet....
sworrall
Posted 10/23/2007 5:43 PM (#280963 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Oh for crap's sake, now we are going to complain about law enforcement 'harassment'? I spend quite a bit of time in the woods and on the water, and have never been what I would call harassed. Checked, yes, and for what I SHOULD be checked for. That's about it. Obey the law...no worries nit pick or not. Openly challenge the law as some apparently wish to, and you got no complaint when you get a citation.

Get 'into' it all you wish Chuck, Shep's dead on with the 'vertical line' interpretation. Is it a good law? No. Does it make any sense to bar us from trolling up here? No. But Lord save anyone who tries to get any of that changed.
Pointerpride102
Posted 10/23/2007 6:06 PM (#280965 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 16632


Location: The desert
I agree with Steve, I've never had any bad run in's with wardens. If you are friendly to them, they will treat you the same way. Ask them how the day is going, what they have observed etc...it will get you a long way.
Reef Hawg
Posted 10/23/2007 6:38 PM (#280974 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 3518


Location: north central wisconsin
I agree that one needs to be careful to have lines vertical. I pick and choose the lakes to use floats on now.

As far as harrassment, it happens on occasion and those are the ones we remember. Dad and I were harrassed so vehemently by a local warden and his Sheriffs deputy friend last winter that it prompted us to write letters to their supervisors(made us feel better anyhow even if they didn't read them). They accused me of too many lines out, berated me for such, searched my property, criminalizing my every step. Then, when they finally realized the 4th tipup they had counted, was another guy who was set up a couple hundred yards from me, they walked away. That happened to several people on Petenwell and surrounding waters over the past couple years, and a few threads were started on various ice fishing sites regarding such. I hate to complain but just wanted to say that both sides of the coin get flipped on occasion.


In the warden in questions defense, I would guess he has somewhat quelled the renegade nature we witnessed by now.

Edited by Reef Hawg 10/25/2007 4:44 PM
sworrall
Posted 10/23/2007 7:01 PM (#280975 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
So does murder and mayhem, but it's not the norm.
C_Nelson
Posted 10/23/2007 7:25 PM (#280979 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.

Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:55 AM
mgoody
Posted 10/23/2007 9:59 PM (#281005 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 11


Location: Wisconsin
My encounters with wardens have always been fine and I plan on keeping it that way. As stated in my original post, we're not looking for loopholes. If you're not supposed to do it, we won't. Thanks for the input everyone.

Mike
Andy
Posted 10/23/2007 10:12 PM (#281007 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


I consider trolling a constant movement to keep a bait active. Anyone else? If a warden was to consider using a trolling motor to move around a lake with LIVE bait out, trolling.... If your live bait doesn't swim, better put a live one on!

All the fish I see caught as classified "flatline trolling" I do not consider a catch, I just don't. That takes so less effort than the 10,000 casts! Yes Mr. Worrall I will be back! less aggressive of course, but I have a mind set on issues such as trolling, or spearing..and hopefullly you can learn from me and I will learn from you. That's all I have to say, thanks. Trolling is trolling, it isn't fishing. Spearing is spearing, it isn't fishing? Catch my drift?
Andy
Posted 10/23/2007 10:23 PM (#281012 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


But, I guess I got off subject..I think a sucker is less effective when "dragging" it, rather then letting it swim out on its own on the rig. As slow as I've reeled one in before I noticed the sucker just LOOKS less effective, and always was. I've had best action on suckers letting them do their own thing, and moving them 10 feet every minute just seems to take the liveliness out of them. So no, I do not think that dragging suckers should be considered trolling.

Aside from that, the sucker bite is on people! We had 3 boats out on a lake less than 200 acres this past weekend, with incredible action and 6 or 7 fish boated maybe (I don't remember it all, there was high lifes involved) and I know we lost 6 or so more. I lost one of the biggest fish I've ever had on too...it just goes to show, the sucker bite IS ON! A majority of our fish caught and lost as well, were all on XL suckers. Watching a 30lb fish inhale a sucker is amazing, I'll tell ya that much! So...

Drag em slow and keep castin,

Andy
TJ DeVoe
Posted 10/23/2007 10:25 PM (#281013 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 2323


Location: Stevens Point, WI
He's not trying to prove his point, I believe Mr. Worrall is trying to explain what the law states. I also believe so was Brad, Norm Wild, and Shep. They all stated the very same thing. I know Norm Wild goes through this discussion with people every year, and I know he's talked to the wardens a lot. He spends a lot of time sucker fishing, probably the most time of anyone I know. I do not believe he has been fined for what he is saying is position fishing. Now, I understand some wardens may see the law a different way. However, I think all the guys I stated above, were simply trying to state how the law should be interpreted. Just my thought.

Edited by Merckid 10/23/2007 10:34 PM
Guest
Posted 10/24/2007 2:09 AM (#281025 - in reply to #281007)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


Andy - 10/23/2007 10:12 PM


All the fish I see caught as classified "flatline trolling" I do not consider a catch, I just don't. That takes so less effort than the 10,000 casts!


And plopping a sucker over the side of the boat takes more effort?
sworrall
Posted 10/24/2007 6:43 AM (#281032 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Andy,
If you are not moving much, and your line is mainly vertical, you by WI law are not trolling; you are position fishing. Trolling, as far as what a warden interprets WI Law, is what it is according to that warden, not me or you. O

Of COURSE trolling is fishing, and takes a tremendous amount of skill and knowledge to do very well. I follow the PWT and FLW for WalleyeFIRST, and see some of the best out there; it isn't as simple as one may think. Ask The Extreme One, or Shep, or any of the others here who have learned the technique. If one isn't fond of a technique, that is fine, but that doesn't make that technique less skill oriented.

Spearing has nothing to do with this issue.

Chuck, if you get a citation, sounds like yours might just be a 'test case' to clarify this murky and IMHO silly law.

Wishin i was fishin
Posted 10/24/2007 7:20 AM (#281034 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 1


Got nabbed for it 2 weekends, and this was moving extremeley slowly with the boober rod behind the boat, it took as three hours to cover about 300-400 yards on the water because there was no wind. This past weekend the the wardens were out there again, even came out on the water this time instead of waiting at the launch for us. We were runninng 4 sucker rods straight down with 1.5 ounces of weight. Checked us for everything, even tryed to accuse us of trolling a black and orange regular bull dawg because he saw us from shore pulling up big black baits, we were using XL suckers. If he couldnt tell what we were using, why did he try to say are lines were not vertical in the water? He even said that he rigged the suckers up after seeing him on the shore. He even measured the length of the boat because we didnt have the throwable out, the boat measures out according to him at 15'-6 and i know that. He even tryed to accuse me a trolling a bucktail i had on the casting rod i was using because the bucktail was still a little wet but the line was completely dry because it hadnt been in the water for 30 minutes at least because we had just caught three fish. Sorry for the rant but we had to argue with the one warden for over a 30 minutes before he figured out that we werent doing anything wrong.
Andy
Posted 10/24/2007 9:29 PM (#281140 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 133


Location: Lake Tomahawk, Musky Central, USA
Steve, THIS BLEW MY MIND... about an hour after I caught my fat 45" pig today, we were wind drifted down the shore to a point where some old guy was casting off his dock while leaving a bobber out. The wind was decent, but we still used the trolling motor to keep the boat perpendicular to shore. The old man says "HEY WHEN WAS TROLLING ALLOWED ON THIS LAKE"...all our captain could say was "we are drifiting". It's a touchy subject I guess! If we can do it with slip bobbers for walleyes in the srping, why can't we do it with suckers for musky now? I had a laugh, thinking back to this post. I've a lot to learn I spose:) To our surprise the old man left to go up to his house..while his rod with the bobber was still out on his dock and in the water. All we could do was laugh!


to go a lil off subject, as I like to do:

A lot of the wardens up here are...explitive deleted...sorry to say it! I believe in their jobs, but I came to this conclusion after a couple of underage drinking tickets handed out a couple of years ago...They were more concerned about us at the campsite we stayed at, rather than the jet-ski pullin a tuber without a second person watchin the tuber...get this... AFTER SUNSET...and on a few other occassions they seemed more worried about issuing "other tickets" rather than checking up on the people that were fishing or flying around a tiny lake with boats that weren't even registered.

I'm glad I'm too old for underage drinking tickets, I guess! It is SUCH a toucy subject, I guess it just depends on what DNR guy you encounter.

Edited by Andy 10/24/2007 9:46 PM
Don Pfeiffer
Posted 10/24/2007 10:13 PM (#281150 - in reply to #280884)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 929


Location: Rhinelander.
I was told it makes no difference if your line is vertical or not. If you do more then just reposition your boat you are trolling. I know that I drag one one also when casting and ever so often hit the electric to move a small a distance. I'm carefull not to move far but I think even that is pushing the law. You need to be caught when the warden is in a good mood.

Pfeiff
esoxcpr
Posted 10/24/2007 10:53 PM (#281152 - in reply to #281140)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 149


"..... if we can do it with slip bobbers for walleyes in the spring, why can't we do it with suckers for musky now? ....."

You can't do it with a slip bobber for walleyes in the spring. That's just as illegal as doing it while musky fishing in the fall.

There are always those who think they are 'above the law' simply because they don't agree with a certain regulation, don't see the harm in it, or have trouble respecting law and authority. See the several examples of those type of people on this thread alone for proof.

The trolling regulation whether viewed as good, bad or otherwise is there to be followed. Anyone breaking it is a violator and should be ticketed, plain and simple. There are those who are good stewards of the resource and follow the regulations irregardless of their personal feelings, and those who aren't and take advantage at every possible opportunity.

You don't have to agree with the regulation, you just have to follow it.

1-800-TIP-WDNR

Edited by esoxcpr 10/24/2007 10:55 PM
BNelson
Posted 10/25/2007 8:12 AM (#281176 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Location: Contrarian Island
i was thinking the same thing Chuck... I wonder if we looked up your record on the net if you have any speeding tickets or other violations EsoxCPR!!??
C_Nelson
Posted 10/25/2007 8:28 AM (#281179 - in reply to #281013)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.



Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:51 AM
john skarie
Posted 10/25/2007 9:06 AM (#281182 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?



Actually every law is up to interpretation, but the officer, and the judge.

That's why laws are challenged all the time in court.

I thought this discussion was about the law, and what is legal, not about who breaks what laws.

We saw a boat fishing two lines last weekend here in MN. Two suckers and out, and two guys casting. After being told by a couple of other fishermen that it was illegal, they kept on doing it. We called TIP, don't know if they actually got a ticket or not.

Sure I've broken laws in my life, but you bet I'm going to turn guys like that in, especially after given the chance to quit doing it after others told them it was illegal, and let them know we saw them doing it.

Call it hypcritical, but everybody has certain convictions or whatever reasons, and breaking some laws bears more weight than others in everyones mind.$

JS
sworrall
Posted 10/25/2007 11:53 AM (#281205 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Thanks, John, for another 'point on' post.

Esoxcpr didn't SAY he did or didn't have a speeding ticket, etc, did he?? He made the same point I did, it's law and if you decide to not follow the law (in the eyes of THAT warden at THAT moment) and do so with your eyes wide open knowing what you are doing can be deemed illegal, you deserve to get a ticket. A speeding ticket or violation like that isn't criminal, though, so let's keep context in mind, please. That being said, to take his point a bit further; if you are doing so to challenge and perhaps change a stupid law, I'd be with you all the way.

Is it winter already?

The law, IMHO, is ridiculous. I don't have the time or money to challenge it, though. If someone else does, GREAT! I'd like to see trolling allowed up here, personally.
AWH
Posted 10/25/2007 12:47 PM (#281217 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 1243


Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN
I'm glad I live where trolling is allowed. Maybe this is a stupid question. But is there a "reason" given as to why they make it legal to row troll, but being propelled by an electric motor while dragging a lure or sucker is made illegal? Seems as though trolling with an outboard engine is the kind of trolling they want to be illegal. So why not word the regulations that way rather than have the "positioning" grey area. "Trolling is permitted by row trolling or with an electric motor only." No more grey area and trolling is still pretty much not happening. Or they could make it really easy and just legalize trolling.

Like I said though, I'm glad I live where I can go out and troll if I want!

Aaron
sworrall
Posted 10/25/2007 12:52 PM (#281218 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Straight answer?

Tradition.
MuskyTime
Posted 10/25/2007 2:19 PM (#281229 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 331


Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
Not to throw a wrench in the discussion, but interpretation can make you or break you. I spoke at length with an area warden one day about this very subject. He agreed with me that under the “position fishing rule” you could use your electric trolling motor momentarily while dragging suckers with or without bobbers. He did caution however that amongst the wardens at an annual meeting much debate takes place around this very subject. If fact he said heated arguments break out between wardens on how to interoperate this rule. Unfortunately there are those who abuse it and this opens up every musky fisherman to scrutiny.

In a conversation with a fellow musky hunter and buddy today, he made mention of a possible solution to this problem. Allow trolling with 2 lines per angler between September 1 thru end of the season. You would no longer have the high volume of water traffic to make trolling an issue, casters would have all summer to enjoy the lakes in peace and quiet without dodging plainer boards, and in the fall you could cast and drag a sucker! Food for thought?

Several years ago I tried to change the wording of the “Position fishing” rule to be a bit more clear in its interpretation. I even had the help of a state senator and his staff to help with the re-write. Boy did that turn into a giant cluster! The fascinating thing was gathering suggestions from fellow musky fishermen. Would you believe that of the 50 or so suggestions I received, each one was different! I gave up after becoming very frustrated.

Ed
sworrall
Posted 10/25/2007 2:30 PM (#281233 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Ed,
I'm with you. but look what happensd when something close to your suggestion is put out there...

http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=37...

Like I said, Lord help anyone trying to mess with 'tradition' here, even when it makes some sense to some.
B420
Posted 10/25/2007 2:37 PM (#281235 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 382


Reminds me of our duck hunting opener here in MN. Tradition had it start on saturday at noon of all things. They had no biological or scientific data that said that we needed to open at noon, just tradition. Make a guy wonder why we are paying biologists if we are going base things on tradition. Now we open at 9 am, just in time for bloodies and beer and the blind.
C_Nelson
Posted 10/25/2007 3:16 PM (#281239 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.



Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:52 AM
former warden
Posted 10/25/2007 3:53 PM (#281246 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


The bobber has nothing to do with it being illegal. What the line is doing above the water means nothing. The rule states " vertical where the line enters the water" as long as the line is vertical from the bobber to the sucker, this is vertical.
Moltisanti
Posted 10/25/2007 4:21 PM (#281248 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 639


Location: Hudson, WI
Call me crazy, but think of this. I mostly fish Polk County lakes where motor trolling is permitted and you are allowed 3 lines (heavy rec/fishing traffic lakes, too). What would the reasoning be to only allow one line or not allow motor trolling on some lakes? The reason for the gray area in both Minnesota and Wisconsin, I believe, is because of the potential it has to earn the states some money in the form of citations (IMO)
Would anyone be against a $2 raise in the price of a fishing license? It would give the DNR those additional funds and let everyone do what they want to do instead of having to tip-toe around the law while trying to do something positive that they enjoy. That's my 2 cents.
Reef Hawg
Posted 10/25/2007 4:28 PM (#281250 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 3518


Location: north central wisconsin
Ed, that is a much better idea and not even in the same zip code as the other proposal on the link above. I would whole heartedly agree with your proposal and be willing to help you pursue such if you were going to, even though I feel it probably would not pass due to tradition as Steve mentioned. The problem with the mentioned proposal, is the attempt to eliminate or greatly curb the use of live bait period, by reducing our line allowance to one. Again, your friends idea holds alot of merit and they might just have alot of people who agree with them. I think it would allow the people who hold the livebait fishing technique dear(and the people we refer to here) the chance to fish the way they always have, while allowing the trollers their chance too. It would have to be looked at under lake size discretion(still not sure I want dudes rocking past me with 3 planer boards behind them on my little 120 acre potholes...), but good stuff nonetheless!

Edited by Reef Hawg 10/25/2007 4:47 PM
TJ DeVoe
Posted 10/25/2007 4:29 PM (#281251 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 2323


Location: Stevens Point, WI
Now, if what former warden says is right, which I believe is. Then interpretation is the wrong word. If the rule says "vertical where the line enters the water", then I don't know how much more clearer one can be? That's pretty clear to me. However, with that being said. I was out this weekend and I was able to turn my trolling motor on and off to help maintain a position but with a vertical line pretty easily.

However, if your fishing with a bobber and that line isn't vertical where the line and the bobber meets the water, then your not within reason. That's how I look at it. In my opinion, if your lines aren't vertical and your under power, then your trolling. Your trolling motor is set too high then.

Chuck, we were out together that one afternoon on a local lake, you saw what happened, do you not think of that as trolling?
Reef Hawg
Posted 10/25/2007 4:41 PM (#281252 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 3518


Location: north central wisconsin
TJ, I was told by a local warden once that one has the 'right' to reposition the boat along the structure if the boat blows off course etc. and that the line may move from a vertical angle for a few moments. Isn't it nearly impossible to maintain a completely vertical line, even while drifting at times?


Not trying to knit pick, actually agree with those above that say the law is really 'crappy' as stated, and should be changed/discarded. Really, it causes alot of stress on people nowadays when fishing in a manner that was historically 'ok', but within the past few years has become viewed upon by many as breaking the law.

Edited by Reef Hawg 10/25/2007 5:04 PM
C_Nelson
Posted 10/25/2007 5:00 PM (#281256 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.

Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:52 AM
scp
Posted 10/25/2007 10:20 PM (#281282 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 28


A well-settled and fundamental legal tenet is that ambiguity is construed against the drafter/state in the enforcement of regulations, statutes, etc.

The motor trolling clause/proviso is the epitome of ambiguous.

My money is on a would-be defendant (like C_Nelson).
Andy
Posted 10/25/2007 10:31 PM (#281283 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 133


Location: Lake Tomahawk, Musky Central, USA
If I went trolling and caught a nice musky, I'd feel the same way I did when I caught my 46.5" fish at the rainbow flowage dam.. I guess it's just personal preference. 8 different fish were caught in 2 hours the next day, people were casting over each other. I got the 2nd largest, the biggest was a 49" 33lbs pig, my dad got the mount. It didn't feel right. Fish of 10,000 casts people.
Andy
Posted 10/25/2007 10:48 PM (#281286 - in reply to #281246)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 133


Location: Lake Tomahawk, Musky Central, USA
former warden - 10/25/2007 3:53 PM

The bobber has nothing to do with it being illegal. What the line is doing above the water means nothing. The rule states " vertical where the line enters the water" as long as the line is vertical from the bobber to the sucker, this is vertical.



a nice big weight will solve anyones problem, unless your sucker is "tool lively" (no such thing!) VIVA LA SUCKERS!
MuskyTime
Posted 10/26/2007 5:13 AM (#281298 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 331


Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
But the whole crappy thing about it is this, how can a warden see whether or not the line is vertical under a bobber when watching the angler from shore? I have used my trolling motor to re-position my boat with suckers out behind the boat yet still had a big slack bend in the line leading to the bobber. So if you’re going to ticket me for that I'm at a loss? I too fish without bobbers when fishing deep clear lakes and will say from experience that maintaining a vertical line without bobbers is at times harder than maintaining vertical with bobbers. When you guys are fishing in PI this weekend I wonder how many of you will be looking around at fellow MF guys and thinking, "hey that guy is breaking the law"! LOL

Ed
Shep
Posted 10/26/2007 8:33 AM (#281307 - in reply to #281298)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 5874


I like the comment about the wardens heatedly arguing about this rule. They can't even agree amounst themselves!

Common sense says this law needs to be stricken from the books. Experience says it won't.
C_Nelson
Posted 10/26/2007 8:56 AM (#281311 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.

Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:50 AM
former warden
Posted 10/26/2007 9:47 AM (#281325 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


This rule is actually very simple...think about the intention. Don't try to figure out how can I get around it, really think about what it means. Some comments I have heard "I will fight it and win" remember ignorance is no excuse. If you don't really understand the meaning, ASK. My comment about the bobber was to point out if your bobber is siting in the water and you are running full speed around the lake with the reel on free spool, you are not trolling. If you are fishing into the wind pulling a sucker, you are trolling. If you think just because your line is vertical you are not trolling, you are wrong. If that is the case people could use downriggers and say their line is vertical where it enters the water or use 10 lbs of weight so the line is vertical.
Each warden has some interpretation of what he or she will allow. Truthfully, some Vilas and Ondeida County wardens are very, very, very lenient. They could write tickets all day long. Some wardens should not be wardens but they are. This is unfortunate, I guess is why I got out.
BNelson
Posted 10/26/2007 9:54 AM (#281327 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Location: Contrarian Island
to me it's kind of like a state patrol officer not giving out a ticket for someone going 5mph over...could he? sure but c'mon... guys like me that are not really "trolling" suckers around on bobbers, lines vertical with quick strikes and releasing all fish are doing much less harm to the fisheries than guys I see at some of the lakes I fish with rods on the pier, sucker way out on a bobber...and sitting inside waiting for it to go down...swallow rigs = DEAD fish...with the size limit at 40 they are potentially killing fish under 40" that swallow the rig..sure I might be bending or even breaking the law and the warden could be leniant with me...but I might drive 5 over a lot too and not even get a 2nd glance by a cop...

the law is not doing much good imo....

Edited by MSKY HNR 10/26/2007 9:56 AM
MRoberts
Posted 10/26/2007 10:27 AM (#281336 - in reply to #281327)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 714


Location: Rhinelander, WI
Hey, as has been said before this has been discussed many times over the year. I believe it is a good discussion and one we should have every year. As it is a very confusing issue.

The following are two items I have run across in the years as this topic has gone round and round for those new to this discussion this may be of some use.

The following isn’t anymore LAW than what has already been written here but it may help you get some background when trying to decide what you want to do on the water.

As far as calling the TIP line when someone is doing something YOU feel is not within the law, consider how ambiguous the law is and you better be darn sure you are 100% within the law or that warden, you just called to the lake, could also end up giving you a citation.

Different people will push this law to different areas, but when it’s as grey as this it’s up to the warden to make the final call, and then a judge or jury if you have the time and money to take it that far. By the way Guide Greg Bohn did exactly that 5 to 10 years ago and won, and many consider what he was doing to be actual trolling, Unbenounced to him he had two undercover wardens IN the boat with him at the time of violation AND STILL WON because of the position fishing rule problems. After that ruling, at a sports show, one of the Linder boys said Wisconsin anglers should band together and all start dragging live bait rigs and make that ruling stand as precedence statewide the next season. It didn’t happen and we still have the problems described in this post.

So make your own decision on the water but here are a couple of items that may help you understand the intent of this law that was created when Back Trolling was eliminated. What was the original intent of the position fishing law? It appears to me that that has been lost in the last 10 or 15 years. If wardens wrote tickets based on intent I think it would be clear that what most are doing would be legal bobber or no bobber.




Position Fishing: What You Can Do (From a 1994 Issue of Wisconsin Outdoor Journal)

In case you blinked and missed it, during the past fall and winter the practice of backtrolling was deemed unsavory and a detriment to sportfishing in Wisconsin. Through a rapid political process, backtrolling was banned and was replaced by "position fishing" on state waters not previously open to forward trolling. Just what is position fishing and what will be allowable under it? Don't look in the 1994 fishing regulations pamphlet for an explanation. It was printed before backtrolling was banned and therefore states that it is still legal. It is not. In a nutshell, position fishing allows for the use of either an electric or combustion motor to move a boat either forward or backward to position an angler's line. The line must remain in a near-vertical state. Since the new law does not state how much a boat can be moved or how "vertical" the line must be to be considered vertical, some have questioned if the law can even be enforced, or at least enforced consistently from warden to warden. For further explanation, Wisconsin Outdoor Journal contacted DNR Bureau of Law Enforcement Director Ralph Christensen. He initially referred to a letter he wrote to State Rep. Jim Holperin, who had also asked for clarification of the new law. In the letter, Christensen said: " ...I am of the opinion that some lateral movement under power will also be acceptable ... occasional momentary deviation from vertical lines is expected and would not constitute a violation of this rule." The letter continued: "Our policy would be that uninterrupted lateral movement for up to several minutes may occasionally be necessary to reposition a fishing boat ... "Assuming that you aren't simply 'trolling' them, your Lindy Rigs or bottom bouncers can be fished consistent with the spirit of the position fishing rule." Christensen told WOJ the new rule allows for position fishing of large suckers for muskies. Some musky anglers have used rigs similar to Lindy Rigs (a commercial name that has become synonymous with live bait rigs using a slip sinker designed to move snagfree along the bottom) in recent years to work suckers along structure. Another practice that would become legal, Christensen said, would be musky anglers' use of sucker-baited lines while casting with another rod. Sometimes called "floating," the technique was popular with anglers whose boats were drifting or moving backward but became illegal if a trolling motor was used to reposition the boat in a forward direction. "If (the lines) are just hanging over the side in this vertical application, it would be legal," he said. Finally, Christensen was asked about the legality of bobber rigs while position fishing. Some resort owners have said their elderly guests, who cannot fish by conventional methods, have begun fishing minnow-baited lines beneath bobbers while using an electric motor to move slowly along the shallows in search of panfish. The resort owners were concerned the new law would prohibit this practice, but Christensen allayed those fears. "In that context, you could pull a bobber around for a little ways and then sit still," he said. If wardens enforce position fishing in the manner described here, then the new rule will do what it was intended to do CC ban trolling for muskies with planer boards and downriggers while allowing anglers to use their boat as a tool to position their lines. Christensen said he is asking game wardens to "consider the whole set of circumstances" before issuing a citation. "If we believe people are trying to get around the spirit of the law, then we'll take action," he said. I'm not alone in my belief that the new position fishing rule will be a headache for many people this open water season. Time will tell.






Clarification on Position fishing from a user info request to the Wisconsin DNR. Date & User unknown.

Dear User: Position fishing is a style of fishing where anglers may maneuver their boat, by a motor, in such a way that allows them to vertically jig lures or still fish with live bait. Boat movements are generally not continuous in a relatively consistent direction, rather the motor is used to maintain the position of the boat over a location or bottom structure.

EXAMPLES - Under this definition, You MAY do any of the following:
1) Use your motor to slowly move around specific structure, fishing with bottom bouncers fished in a vertical or near-vertical presentation;
2) Use your motor to move around specific structure, vertically jigging for fish;
3) Re-position your boat while still fishing with a bobber;
4) Move or reposition your boat to maintain your position around a specific location. Occasional deviation from a completely vertical presentation of the fishing lines is expected and allowed.
Under this definition, you MAY NOT do any of the following:
1) Play out and trail lines from the boat while moving across the lake in a consistent, uninterrupted manner;
2) Use downriggers or planer boards to trail livebait or artificial lures while operating a motor; or
3) Trail a minnow behind the boat while casting an artificial lure with uninterrupted use of a motor;
The key in interpreting this rule is a consistent application and understanding of "uninterrupted", which is, of course, difficult!. In my experience, while moving along a weedline, rock bar, point, etc., casting an artificial lure for muskies, the motor is only used to slowly move along the area being fished and it is also helpful for maintaining a desired distance away from the area you are fishing. However, while you may legally cast and retrieve with uninterrupted use of the motor, in my experience, that usually means using an electric motor in bursts for less than about 30 seconds at a time. My interpretation would be that you may trail a sucker on a second rod while casting and moving along the shoreline, etc., as long as you only occasionally reposition the boat and move slowly along the area being fished, with "short" bursts of an electric motor. Constant, uninterrupted use of the motor (for example, to move to or approach another fishing area with more than about 1 minute of uninterrupted motor use) would require that the sucker be removed from the water before proceeding.
A general rule of thumb would be that your motor should be off for more time than it is on while the sucker is in the water. Conversely, if your motor is running more often than not while that sucker is in the water, you should pull the sucker in!

Sincerely, Monique Currie Wisconsin DNR
MRoberts
Posted 10/26/2007 10:43 AM (#281337 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 714


Location: Rhinelander, WI
O-yea the idea of allowing trolling with two lines after September 1 is great but that does nothing for the walleye anglers that want to fish lindy rigs deep during mid summer. The position fishing law was intended to allow that as well as sucker fishing. We as musky fishermen can't loose site of other anglers, we can accomplish much more working all together.

To me a simpler fix would be a rule that allowed trolling with electric motors only, under a certain horsepower or thrust, with no down riggers or planner boards. That would satisfy the “intent” as described by Mr. Christensen, wouldn’t it. It would sure make enforcement much easier. What would be the downsides, I am sure there are some?

Nail A Pig!

Mike
C_Nelson
Posted 10/26/2007 10:56 AM (#281340 - in reply to #281336)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 578


Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI
.

Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:50 AM
MuskyTime
Posted 10/26/2007 11:23 AM (#281344 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 331


Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
Mike,

Great post! I was looking in my files for this article and glad you posted it here. I believe you are correct when saying that the original intent of the law has been lost over the years. I know Steve Heiting actually keeps a copy of the above article with him when he is fishing suckers to show wardens if he is stopped.

Chuck,

This is the article that I spoke of!

Ed
esoxcpr
Posted 10/26/2007 2:55 PM (#281364 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 149


This is all pretty much a moot point with the emergency NRB ruling Wednesday evening that applies the emergency VHS live bait rules for anglers and bait dealers to ALL waters of the state. Sucker fishing in Wisconsin will very shortly be a thing of the past that you can tell your grandchildren was allowed 'back in the good old days'.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/caer/ce/news/rbnews/BreakingNews_Lookup.asp?i...

Edited by esoxcpr 10/26/2007 2:56 PM
MuskyTime
Posted 10/26/2007 3:10 PM (#281369 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 331


Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
So how do you figure this would stop the use of fishing with suckers?

Ed
esoxcpr
Posted 10/26/2007 11:58 PM (#281406 - in reply to #281369)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 149


What the new rules will do is make it extremely difficult for any bait dealers to catch suckers and get them to market and be profitable doing so. It also makes it very difficult for anglers.

First off, under the new rules all anglers before they leave any Wisconsin water body, must drain their boats and make sure all fish leaving the lake are dead, including left over bait minnows. No keeping live suckers (or minnows) to take to the next lake. New suckers (or minnows) will have to be bought between each lake for use on the new water body.

All bait dealers (not just those who gather in VHS positive waters as before) will now also have to jump through very specific (and potentially very expensive) hoops just to gather and raise their product and get it to market. Getting permits, record keeping, expensive testing and decontamination procedures will now have to be followed for all bait gathered, raised and transported statewide, not just in VHS waters as before.

Trust me, this is but the first step to an eventual total ban on using live fish for bait.
MuskyTime
Posted 10/27/2007 5:08 AM (#281410 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 331


Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
From what I understand bait dealers are already having to have their bait quarantined and tested for 60 days. I might be wrong on that but the bait shops that I talked with said that the wholesalers that they were dealing with were under these restrictions already.

As for having to kill suckers that are left over at the end of the day. You could get around that by keeping suckers in a cooler in your vehicle and only take a few out in the boat with you. How the DNR will be able to enforce this across the entire state at 10,000 boat landings will be interesting. Besides that most of us already drain our live wells and bait wells when leaving the lake anyway.

Time will tell I guess.

Ed

sworrall
Posted 10/28/2007 7:31 PM (#281548 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
It's a stupid law, and needs to be changed. The only reason we can't troll up here, IMHO, is 'tradition'.

By the way, Greg's case was not what I would consider a test case for this issue. He was using a cavitation plate mounted electric motor to 'assist' in row trolling, a totally different issue as I understand things.
Dave N
Posted 10/28/2007 9:14 PM (#281567 - in reply to #281548)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 178


STEVE WORRAL: It's a stupid law, and needs to be changed. The only reason we can't troll up here, IMHO, is 'tradition'.

DAVE: Amen, Steve. Motor trolling shouldn't be immoral, unethical, or ambiguously illegal in Wisconsin while it continues to be a legal part of our fishing tradition almost everyplace else in the country. In your opinion, how do we get Wisconsin on the same page with the rest of the nation on this?

Dave Neuswanger
Fisheries Team Leader, Upper Chippewa Basin
Wisconsin DNR, Hayward
sworrall
Posted 10/28/2007 10:32 PM (#281585 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Dave,
I think it goes to the same issues as black powder hunting for deer, deer season extensions, and the like. It was not easy to get a Black Powder season for deer.

Tradition is hard to beat up here, even if there is no real reason for the issue at hand. This, like ALL management issues in WI is blocked from consideration by social hurdles more than anything else, IMHO.

Education as to the actual biological impact of trolling, and a campaign with good grass roots support to bring the facts to the public. I know that sounds like a broken record from me, but it's a fact we have a very odd way of getting things done in the out of doors regulations category in this state. One can be 'correct/right' all the way around and fail to get the kind of attention needed to implement change; even if it's absolutely positive in implication. (loaded statement, there)

I'm in if anyone else wants to join me in a 'crusade' to get this changed. At the very least there needs to be consideration for possible 'lake classifications' that allow trolling on the larger lakes, say 500 acres or more. I understand the concerns of those who fish the tiny lakes up here and are afraid of the trollers. Maybe with concessions on all sides something might be done.
MRoberts
Posted 10/29/2007 9:07 AM (#281628 - in reply to #281585)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 714


Location: Rhinelander, WI
Steve, I have heard the same thing about Bohn’s case, but either way the position fishing rule was the out, even when he had two wardens in the boat witnessing his row trolling power assist. The way I remember the story is he was row trolling up a break then pulled the ors in and used the eclectic only to go out and around a couple boats anchored on the break. The entire time still trolling the lures. I don’t know the complete facts of the case as to weather the ors where just for show and the electric was running the entire time or if that was the only time the electric was used. But either way it shows the giant problems with the current rule which we all agree on.

As far as legalizing trolling a number of things should be considered in my opinion:

Tradition is a major factor as you stated. With the spring hearings a major part of any regulation change it can’t be left out.

Backtrolling was eliminated for a few reasons.
1st The Wisconsin Fishing Traditionalist had a major problem with the success a number of guys where having once they figured out how to backtroll effectively. They thought two few people where catching and keeping, at the time, to large a percentage of the big fish.
2nd Many people had problems with the wide spread of lines guys where using while backtrolling once people started figuring out how to use planer boards and down riggers even on the many small N. WI waters.
3rd backtrolling effectively made the “Tradition” of trailing a sucker while casting illegal unless the boat was moving backwards. There for the “Traditionalists” who where not in favor of backtrolling in the first place had to resort to backtrolling to fish sucker the way they always had in the past. And they WERE NOT HAPPY from the very beginning.


Things to think about when looking at a WI inland water trolling rule change.

1-One line rule would be great, but right off the bat it would anger the people that want to cast and trail a sucker in the fall. These are many of the people who would probable vote for the change, and WONT because it eliminates a very fun and effective way to fish in the fall.

2-The fear of mixed use confrontations. If it passes with the three lines/angler many would be again concerned about the large wide spread of lines interfering with the casters and bobber watchers. Especially on small waters. Limiting the size of lakes or having step down rules may effectively battle this. Say no planner boards or down riggers on lakes smaller than a certain size. Or limit the number of rods per boat, not per angler, then you get around the problems I outlined in #1.

3-It’s just another technique, no more effective or damaging than any other technique. That needs to be made clear. Walleye anglers will want this as much if not more than musky fishermen that can be used to gain widespread support.

Gary Michelson (I think that’s his name) from Lake Tomahawk Taxidermy once told me he was part of the group that got backtrolling outlawed he may be a good person to talk to in an effort to find out the background and what would be acceptable to that group of people.

Something needs to change, to many people are being made to feel guilty of doing something that could or couldn’t be wrong based on that days interpretation.

It’s not a good way to treat people that generally have the best interest of the fishery at heart.

Nail A Pig!

Mike
sworrall
Posted 10/29/2007 9:14 AM (#281629 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 32924


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Mike,
You up for another 'project'? I'll take on the writing and compilation portion of this one if you want to dive in and do the magic you do with contacts.
ricepicker
Posted 10/29/2007 10:15 AM (#281636 - in reply to #281629)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Steve, I'm on your side and will help with this. I was thinking along the language that exists for fishermen with the medical documentation that allows trolling with an electric motor only. I know that there would be some abuse, but it would be a start. There are so many elderly fishermen out there that simply cannot cast any more, yet would welcome a chance to fight another musky. The DNR is supposed to work for us, and I believe this group of fisherpersons can get it done. Look what was accomplished with Pelican Lake!
UKMICK
Posted 10/29/2007 3:35 PM (#281682 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?





Posts: 30


Location: England
Amazing. We have very similar arguments on this side of the Atlantic.
Anyone tried using a bobber & floating braid, use the wind to drift it where you want it to go?
Stump
Posted 11/11/2007 6:03 PM (#284076 - in reply to #280832)
Subject: RE: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?


I just got nailed with a $208 fine for basically position fishing with my trolling motor. My son had a sucker soaking out the back of my boat, while I tried to get around a point in 20 knot winds. I was told, "the only legal way to do it is to put the sucker in the live well, when the trolling motor is in the water." All this, while another fisherman was soaking 2 suckers while circling the lake. Makes no sense.
TJ DeVoe
Posted 11/11/2007 6:12 PM (#284077 - in reply to #284076)
Subject: Re: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling?




Posts: 2323


Location: Stevens Point, WI
Stump, were you using your trolling motor while trying to go around the island?