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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | Under what conditions would you prefer one over the other? Do you use mono on your boards or flat lines? |
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Posts: 381
| I use mono for both.
I like having the extra chance of the last head shake. |
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Posts: 226
Location: W. PA. | The only time I use braid is when I need every foot of depth I can get or precision trolling structure where shorter lines are easier. Mono works better for me for everything else, it's more forgiving and doesn't have a tendency to rip the hooks out, easier on the rods and guides, holds in releases better, and doesn't freeze like braid. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I totally agree with the last post. Ill add some good points on Trolling muskies. As most of you know Muskies hit from the side most of the time. Sometimes accelerating to 20/30 mph on the strike. With a big fish this like hooking a passing jet ski.
Rule #1: put your casting rods away. In cold weather with braid lines and graphite rods the drag is all thats left to absorb the shock. I have watched 200.oo graphite rods explode on strike due to no stretch lines in these conditions.
Rule#2: with Big BAITS DO NOT RUN PLASITC ROD HOLDERS. Just ask one of my clients who was running a deepthreat and was lucky the fish shook the lure and it surfaced. He got his rod,reel and lure back .
After near 25 years of trolling for everything from Kings to Pike and Muskies I will recommend that you use good solid Glass rods with big water reels spooled with various tests of Mono line. My favorite line of all time is Mason P-LINE. This line is accepted as the best by most Michigan Salmon fishermen because it is very very tough per diameter. Abrasion resistance second to none. The rods I use would make most of you laugh until you see them in action. Many of the guys here at Muskies Inc chapter 47 Michigan Muskie Alliance have tried them and are running today. 29.99 at Walmart. Shakespere Catfish rods in 7 foot one piece. These blanks are indestructable and come with fugi reel seats and good foam handles. The guides last for one to two years. I replace mine right away with all stainless steel boat guides. They will last as long as I do.
Rods reels and lines are all related to the size lures you are running. I carry three size trolling rods for three classes of lure. All of my reels are Okuma Convector 20 and 30 cv models with line counters.
For running lures on shad based lakes .Lures like the Bagley monster shad, Tuff shad, 5 inch Rapalas, Super shads, crane 305, and other small lures the best set up for me has been the Catfish rod with an Okuma 20 CV Convector spooled with 17 lb test Mason P-Line. Leaders are 60 lb 7 strand or if I am running inline weights 50 lb Florocarbon.
My main Musky trolling rods which handle all other lures up to 10 inches. Catfish rod, Okuma 30 CV Convector spooled with 30 lb Mason P-Line leaders are 60 lb 7 strand or 60/80 LB Florocarbon if I am running inline weights. This is the rig we use on Lake St. Clair for most every 6 to 10 inch lure.
Big bait rods. 7 foot Shakespere Tiger rod rated at 20 to 50 lb line 6 ounce lure one piece stainless steel boat guides. Reel is the Okuma 45 CV Convector spooled with 60 lb Triline Big Game,leaders are 130 lb Florocarbon. I also carry one reel spooled with 100 lb Power pro to get even deeper. This rig is for lures 11 to 20 inches. I pull my 12 inch Deepthreats with this rod setup.
The Catfish rods stunned us here , they are the perfect propwash rod and are also great on the boards. With a 7 to 10 inch bait running they load right to the point of the rods power. On strike they bend to the handle and drag and mono take over. This initial shock absorber sets the hooks great and allows for a smooth transition into the drag. I lose very few fish in fact hooking percentage with these rods is near 100 % . I think Ive lost about 5 fish in a couple hundred. At 29 bucks there is not a better deal out there for a utility boat rod . These rods get slammed into rod lockers .tossed up into the bow when fish are on. Topugh as nails. Mnay reels will get the job done I just like Okumas because they never have failed me.
Cast with Braid and Graphite. Troll with Mono and Glass.
If you insist on using braid for all your trolling applications use a soft Glass rod like downrigger rods to act as a shock absorber when pulling smaller lures or face straightening hooks or tearing loose. Once you get into the 4x hooks and or bigger lures Braid becomes more usable as the bigger hooks and bigger baits will hold and not pull loose or straighten out. It is all realtive to the lures you are planning to pull. I hope this helps you out, Last year we put over 60 Muskies in the Boat on St. Clair alone using these rigs 3 of which were over 30 pounds and 51 inches or better.
Drag tension is key. A big fish should be able to pull drag. You should be able to pull a small fish. check your reels every time you set the rod. Good luck, Kingfisher |
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| great info, thanks!
so what is the best place to set your drag for trolling?
i've tended to set mine relatively light, with the alarm on and the spool tension tight.
should i be cranking it down more?
i don't want to miss fish, but i don't want to drown fish either?
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| great read kingfisher.. |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Read what Kingfisher wrote, then read it again. It's good stuff. I run similar setups out here. But I confess to routinely breaking Rule #2...my risk, I know. I run mostly Stren High Impact 30 lb., but also run a deep long line w/ braid on occasion (depends on the number of occupants in the boat and subsequently how many lines I can run).
Rods are el-cheapo fiberglass sticks and unusually flexible compared to my casting rods. Cork handles are nice, but will get chewed up in rod holders; foam handles are more durable. The boat sets the hook, the rod/drag just keeps the line from snapping. I have Diawa Sealines and Okuma Magda linecounter reels, but also make use of Abu 6500 c3s; they all have good clickers (one of the best sounds I can think of). The Magda's are the best value of the lot as far as I'm concerned.
I have my drag set pretty light also, only one muskie this year has failed to take at least some line, that was on an in-line planer board and some slack is taken out of that setup before the clicker goes anyway. Experience, more than anything will give you the best feel for that.
S. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | For slow(row)-trolling, (like us up here in N.WI are FORCED to do), I have had much better luck with power braids for the board rods, and mono on the flat lines. I can't hammer on a throttle when I get a rip, and 100+ feet of mono out with the angle of a board is like a rubber band with a weight on it. Too much slack, hook-ups have gone WAY up after the switch to power braid. Now on my flat lines, I like mono due to the short line lengths, the stretch is good.
Use the Off-Shore OR-18 releases and boards staying on any type of line isn't an issue.
JS |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I would have to agree with the row trollers advice. You are more like a caster at slow speeds and Braid is needed to set the hook. And very correct on the long lines being like rubberbands. Without a big boat moving by motor to keep the pressure on we would lose more of our out on the boards fish. Ill add one more rig to this discussion. That is my set of 10 foot out rods. I use Shimano Taloras in the heavy Dipsy diver rods as my 3 and 4 rods when not running planer boards. Reels are the Okumas with the 30 lb Mason P-LINE. These will get your 3 and 4 lures out away from the prop wash rods and greatly improve the width of your spread. They also hook well and are a blast to fight a big fish on. Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | sorenson - 10/16/2007 5:52 PM
Read what Kingfisher wrote, then read it again. It's good stuff. I run similar setups out here. But I confess to routinely breaking Rule #2...my risk, I know. I run mostly Stren High Impact 30 lb., but also run a deep long line w/ braid on occasion (depends on the number of occupants in the boat and subsequently how many lines I can run).
Rods are el-cheapo fiberglass sticks and unusually flexible compared to my casting rods. Cork handles are nice, but will get chewed up in rod holders; foam handles are more durable. The boat sets the hook, the rod/drag just keeps the line from snapping. I have Diawa Sealines and Okuma Magda linecounter reels, but also make use of Abu 6500 c3s; they all have good clickers (one of the best sounds I can think of). The Magda's are the best value of the lot as far as I'm concerned.
I have my drag set pretty light also, only one muskie this year has failed to take at least some line, that was on an in-line planer board and some slack is taken out of that setup before the clicker goes anyway. Experience, more than anything will give you the best feel for that.
S.
Rule two could save you a great deal of grief. Picture a 50 pounder that ate the lure deep enough that she cant get rid of it and she takes the rod and holder off the boat. She drags it around until it gets snagged up and she dies with her jaws pinned. Down easters dont break . They are not that much money. and in the game of 50 inch fish there is no substitute when running big baits. Plastic rod holders work for small lures where your drag is set light. Run big baits where you have to crank down the drag so the lure doesnt run the drag out and put them in plastic and you are asking for disaster. You can run most 6 to 10 inch lures with mono and plastic rod holders if the drags are loose. Get into 10, 12,15 inch Deepthreats, Hookers, Wishmasters and such You need the downeaster or better to be safe. I use the s-10 salty double clampers for everything from walleyes to Salmon and Muskies. I also have two sets of the Tite loc rocket launchers (tube rod holders) for extra planer board rods. I have 6 s-10's on each one of my boats. I use the pursuit tracks and aluminum block mounts for the s-10's . There isnt a slicker system for deploying trolling rods. Im off for 5.5 days on Michigans toughest waters. Big fish are there , I cant wait to pull some new 12 and 15 inch baits . New line on the big bait rods,new leaders and new baits. Its going to be an adventure. Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | A big bait for me is about 7".
S. |
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| Anyone else running mono using the OR-16 releases (red ones with the peg in the pad) start to see a groove burned in the peg? I believe this must be from the line. My only guess. Doesn't seem to be affecting the line at all, but I fear it may.
Mine are fairly new, with less than 150 hours of running 9.5 and 10' dipsey rods, 50 lb mono and boards, and I'm starting to see grooves worn in the pegs on my pinch pads.
Thanks,
Eric |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | sorenson - 10/16/2007 10:51 PM
A big bait for me is about 7".
S.
You are probably alright with plastics then as long as you dont crank down the drags. I broke one a long time ago on a big fish. Ive never hooked one that big since. There were a lot of would of should ofs involved know what I mean? I have been trying to hit another one that big ever since. An old timer told me I needed two down easters on my boat if I was going to fish for Muskies. Instead I bought 4 Roberts for the same money. They worked fine for a lot of Muskies and Pike until (she) hit. Ill never forget that day I was running 80 lb braid line a 10 inch Hooker bait and an old Penn 309 that I had bought at a yard sale for 5 bucks. The rod was a 6 foot st Croix casting rod. All of this in a plastic Roberts rod holder. When she hit I heard this cracking sound as the holder twisted all the teeth off the spindle turning it from 90 degrees to straight out the back. This happened because the old Penn Drag froze and with no stretch line or give in the rod I dragged a 50 lb class Musky on the surface at 5 mph. The rod was so jammed in the holder both my son and I could not get it loose. Needless to say I should have got off the gas but you dont think about those things when you see the monster behind your boat. All I wanted to do was get the rod out of the holder and loosen the drag. In just a few seconds the hooks tore part of the inside of her upper jaw off and she was off. We were stunned as it all happened so fast. Two years later the Michigan State record was caught and killed on the same lake. The fish was missing part of the inside of its upper jaw (scar tissue) . She was 49 lbs 12 ounces. If I had done even two of the things right I might just have got her in the boat. I think the best reason for using Down easters is the way you just lift them straight up and the rod is free.
I had a 45 incher almost toast another Roberts right after that fishing a 6 inch Loke. I had a sticky drag on another old reel. 10 foot dipsy rod at a 90 degree angle. I think all that leverage was almost too much for the Roberts rod holder. I got rid of them right after that. I have been through three boats since then. My down easters go with me not the boats. Ha ha . Kingfisher |
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Not all plastic rod holders are created equal.
Fish-On holders have worked very well in cold temps with big baits for many guys I know.
The Ram Holders work good too, I'm pretty sure they are all plastic.
JS |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | With all due respect, it sounds like the problem had more to do with the drags than the rod holders. Had they been Down Easters, the result would most likely been similar unless you were standing right next to the rod and able to relieve the same pressure nearly instantaneously. I probably run my drags just a bit looser than I need just for some degree of comfort from situations just as you describe. It's all about minimizing the effect of the 'weak link' in your system; right now I believe that the rod holder is much stronger than the 30 lb. mono I run as a main line. If the drag on any of my reels freezes, the line will break long before the rod holder will. I won't like the result of that much better, but I'll have the satisfaction of taking the reel off and chucking it in the trash!
S. |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Muskie-Addict - 10/16/2007 10:06 PM
Anyone else running mono using the OR-16 releases (red ones with the peg in the pad) start to see a groove burned in the peg? I believe this must be from the line. My only guess. Doesn't seem to be affecting the line at all, but I fear it may.
Mine are fairly new, with less than 150 hours of running 9.5 and 10' dipsey rods, 50 lb mono and boards, and I'm starting to see grooves worn in the pegs on my pinch pads.
Thanks,
Eric
Eric, I did notice that, but I stopped using the OR-16's in favor of the OR-18s. Much easier to get off the line when you you get ripped, and you don't have to worry about that groove cutting your line.
I second the P-Line. Been using it for about 5 years now and absolutely LOVE it. I run 20# on my smaller bait set ups and have not had an issue.
Great stuff Kingfisher!!! |
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| different tools for different applications.
where we fish, the name of the game is structure trolling and deep water trolling. mono doesn't cut it. 100# braid or 30-40# single strand wire is what we run. in the cold months i run dipsey glass rods and the st. croix 8' trolling glass-composite rod. set drags accordingly, use quality rod holders (down easters), and yee shall not have a problem. never had equip failure and we fish till the ice prevents us from launching. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Guest - 10/17/2007 12:50 PM
different tools for different applications.
where we fish, the name of the game is structure trolling and deep water trolling. mono doesn't cut it. 100# braid or 30-40# single strand wire is what we run. in the cold months i run dipsey glass rods and the st. croix 8' trolling glass-composite rod. set drags accordingly, use quality rod holders (down easters), and yee shall not have a problem. never had equip failure and we fish till the ice prevents us from launching.
Nice , That is exactly what I am saying. You are using softer Glass composite rods to run Wire and Braid. No question Wire gets the deepest although I can get a deepthreat down 35 feet with a 1 pound mini ball ahead of it using 60 lb Mono setting the rod up as a down rod with the tip under water. lOTS OF GUYS USE WIRE AND 10 FOOT GLASS RODS. The trick is soft rods ,soft drags with no stretch line. I use the braids to get deeper but its not my go to rig. Wire requires very special guides(rollers for some guys) spring tips or roller tips. That is a whole different game. Kingfisher
Yes ,On that big fish we lost in 1998 we did everything wrong ha ha ha . Plastic rod holders, bad reel, wrong line for the rod and the wrong rod for job. Like I said if we would have just done two things right we might have got her. Those would of could ofs . ha ha, Kingfisher |
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Posts: 108
Location: Toronto, ON | Salty S-10's cost around 20 bucks up here....cheap, stronger than any other holder out there, secure....why would you use anything else? |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I find the comments on glass rods and mono interesting. I run braid and stiff rods on chinook without any problems at all. There is nothing more vicious than a 40 pound chinook absolutely burying the rod in the holder and I can't remember even one time in which the braid broke on us. We fish chinook in heavy current and when they take there will often be a 100' of line out before you can get the rod out of the holder.
A drag is designed to keep the line from breaking. If your line is breaking your drag is too tight. So far as braid being hard on rods......that's no longer true. I run braid on all my rods and have for a decade and I can't see a bit of unusual wear on any of them.
The biggest advantage of mono is its abrasion resistance. If you expect part of your set-up to experience abrasion then by all means use mono or a mono leader.
RM
Edited by RiverMan 10/28/2007 10:32 AM
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Mono vs braided for trolling