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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I've been reading articles about the barometer and pressure. Some say that we should watch for the barometer to fall. Others say that it gets hot (the fishing) when there is a change whether it's up or down.
I would really appreciate some dialogue about this. I do know that the fish get more active when the barometer is falling. Does it work both ways?
Thanks,
Craig
Edited by cjrich 10/6/2007 8:27 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I looked at this using my guiding log from Oneida County and the barograph records at Nicolet College years back. I found that there was some correlation between action on the water and barometric pressure changes, sometimes very slight either up OR down.
Obviously, as a Low Pressure front moves in the barometer will fall, and as the frontal line approaches the best action overall seems to kick in everything else (which is considerable) considered. I also saw a spike in activity as the barometer changed over from falling to rising, and the winds began to shift. Some of my largest fish were caught on the very cusp of a rising barometer.
Some of my best fishing, though, was during periods of stable barometric pressure, with little up and down spikes but no really strong trend. Dawn and dusk were best for me under those conditions. | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | Thank you Steve. | |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | there was an interesting article in Esox Angler in either the last winter or spring issue by Gene Smith on this subject. I think it was in the Research section. Anyways, the article was about the affects of weather phenomenon and mentions that atmospheric pressure has little to no impact on muskies, biologically. He does say that lightning or approaching lightning stimulates some part of their brain. I don't want to speak for the article though, I suggest you find a copy if you want to read more about it.
Personally, I think atmospheric pressure is over scrutinized when talking about fish activity. I'm not saying that weather doesn't affect fish activity, because I have witnessed it time and time again. However, a moving barometer does not make aggressive fish, the whole correlation is not causation thing. Now for my thinking: atmospheric pressure works exactly the same as pressure under water. In the water though, pressure increases much more drastically with depth since water is much heavier than air, approximately 30 mb per 1 ft of water depth. Compare that to major storm system, lets say a huge cold front blows through and causes the pressure to drop from 1013mb to 1003mb in a day, that would be equivalent to a fish moving vertically 4 inches in the water column. I just don't see why this would cause a fish to come unglued. I've heard people say that a drop/rise in pressure affects there swim bladder so they will feel more hungry/full. I'm just not believing that one.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | When you can ask the Muskies why they do what they do, we will know. In the meantime, I will be paying close attention to what the barometer and weather is doing and adapt accordingly because I catch lots of fish doing exactly that.
All living creatures are effected by the weather. My work looking at catch logs and comparing that to barograph records and solunar information, etc. showed a clear correlation. I don't think this has anything to do with the fish's position in the water column; something else is going on here that may or may not have anything to do with fisheries biology. There's been plenty of speculation why and how weather effects fish activity; most interesting, and all, I think, still speculation. What I am sure of is that weather and fishing success are inexorably tied together. | |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Atmospheric pressure has no effect of fish. Period. It is correct about water pressure and how a slight water difference is more pressure than a hurricane. Air Pressure can not translate into water, it is a fluid and thus a fish in that medium would never notice the millimeter difference in water level that the low or high pressure system would create.
What fish much more relate to is light conditions and water temperature. If you can work these two factors, it will mean better fishing conditions. Sometimes stable weather can be successful because the fish get used to the conditions and can use it to their advantage. A high pressure is sinking air and thus no method of forming clouds (usually), so that means sunny days. Predator fish are ambush animals and using light to their advantage is key. Walleyes, Pike, Muskies, Bass all use light and lack of light for feeding advantage. All of their eyes and senses are set up for that. Some have bigger eyes or better eyes, some can see better in daylight, some are very key at using structure to offer a shade advantage.
Pretty much every fish is most active during low light, waves or murky water is great on a bright sunny day for walleyes on Winnebago just as 2am is great on Oconomowoc for walleyes. My best Muskie days have been in the lowest light at night, or the most miserable windy and cloudy days. Temperature is also key either in spring as the water warms, or in fall as the water cools and predators realize that they need to pack on the pounds for winter.
I wouldn't worry to much about the barometer....
Edited by Muskiemetal 10/5/2007 9:54 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I disagree. It's clear to anyone who has spent time on the water an approaching front effects fish behavior. I'm not saying the fish are effected directly by the change in pressure on the water surface, I'm saying according to my experience a change in barometric pressure up OR down has a distinct effect on behavior.
Explain for me why as a front moves through (no real change in level of light other than sun position, let's use a cloudy day, certainly no change in water temps) activity can spike tremendously, outside of a solunar event (major or minor) and not associated with any other event any more than any other day. Why as the front moves through (like tonight) do the fish 'move'? Or are you saying I'm imagining this? I don't 'worry' about the barometer, but I sure pay attention to changing conditions.
Post frontal conditions both cold and warm front...why are some days so tough and others not, some with tiny windows and others with more expanded windows considering identical cloud cover and water temps?
I have seen fish go absolutely bonkers in shallow clear water during sun noon. Theory says that during the lowering light of dusk and rising light of dawn fish are more likely to be active. Some days at dusk I can't buy a muskie, but during a dry front as the barometer begins to rise I have an hour of great action during bright and sunny conditions. Get moonrise, sunset, and a front coming in all together, and you have Muskie magic, IMHO. Why? I don't know, but I do have some ideas about the subject.
By the way, there is no indication 'predator' fish feed more actively to 'put on weight' for the winter. I'd argue that warmer water makes for more active feeding, not the other way around.
Defining a fish as a 'predator' is a pretty murky deal if you are attempting to do so separating Muskies from say...Perch. Sure, Perch are prey to Muskies, but are predators to many other small fishes.
Define 'weather'. Define 'front'. Fronts, especially the frontal line, are most defined by their differing atmospheric pressures. So, if a front is moving in, say a Low, and winds go from NW to S to SE with no appreciable difference in cloud cover , what does traditional wisdom say about the fishing...better or worse than before the front approaches?
http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Resources/Weather/Charts/pressure.html
http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/weather/hsweathr/isobar.html
Also, I noticed that little upward or downward spikes in pressure correlated with a short window of activity. One can actually see this happen on the water; the wind will shift ever so slightly, leaves on the trees will roll a bit outward on a high, back side to you on a low, birds will pick up and fly around, etc. No solunar, no other discernable event...I had zero explanation until I looked at that time on a barograph and saw that spike up or down on that paper, then back to the level of pressure or close to it before the odd little spike.
Of course, weather and barometer are connected so strongly at the hip, this COULD be 'waves on the water make the wind blow' hypothesis. I don't KNOW why the weather has such a profound effect on fish behavior, but I do know the activity can and does happen on low wind days with no changing water column secchi disc readings (yes, for awhile I was that nutso trying to figure things out), stable water temps, not enough wave action to move baitfish around, etc. I think 'it' just plain happens. | |
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Location: Montreal, QC | (Please excuse my english, i'm french speaking)
I've wittnessed this feeding frenzy a lot of time too right before a storm. But i doubt that there's a direct link between barometric pressure change and muskies feeding behavior. It's probably more of a chain reaction like : the plancton move in the water column and the small invertebrates too, followed by the minnows who feed on them, attracting the small gamefishes like perch and such out of their ambush spots into the thick weeds, all this activity stimulating the muskies to feed on their moving prey...
Maybe the same kind of reaction that happened when gravitational forces come into play (moon rise, set, full and new moon). Theses forces that can literally "pull" the water several feet up when there's enough volume (tides) surely had some effects on the micro-organisms, even on inland waters, thus starting reactions along the chain up to our lovely top predator.
But i could be wrong...
Edited by saumon 10/6/2007 12:51 AM
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Posts: 199
Location: Anchorage | A fish feeling an atmospheric pressure change is like a deer smelling you from 200 yards away. We know the deer has its phenomenol senses because we see them in action. We can't really "see" a muskie reacting to a change in pressure so it's harder to believe. The fact that a fish's lateral line is extremely sensitive is understood, but we really don't know how sensitive it actually is. Many things in this world are beyond our comprehension and this is one of them.
I've only been at the muskie game about as long as this site has been around. Still, I've noticed a significant increase in success whenever the pressure changes, up or down. Better yet is a change with a decrease in light levels, such as an oncoming cloud/storm front. I've found this to be true with all the fish that I pursued before muskies, even river running salmon. The same factors seem to play into all aquatic behavior no matter what situation one is faced with. Just another thing we humans have a hard time understanding and therefore believing. Seems like something or someone else might be at work here, huh?
Edited by woody 10/6/2007 2:22 AM
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| Here's some thoughts I posted a year ago on what I have learned and observed on another site
Some years the change is somewhat predictable using all availible weather graphs and knowing your minors and majors ,some years not
I think the jet stream the way it is set up for the season has some influence and I think Altitude may be factor of the strength of these changes and predictability
Nothing sure or absolute,its just tools that allow you guess better what to do and where to be when you need to be.
Sorry for itslength but when something triggers me and I find it interesting,I gather my thoughts and plaster em ,I guess to try and find the flaws
It may also make you think of the Mazda Commercial
"Zoom,Zoom ,Zoom"
To be Honest,its way to complex to understand and corrrealate everything
Their guys that spend all day doing it getting paid for it,when do you go fishing if ya try adding it all up and being at the right place and right time ,Chance are you mised it
A few elements are worth paying attention to
Actually,every day at least 6 times a day there is a change in atmospheric pressure.
These changes occur at Sun Rise,Sun set and the 4 Quarters as the moon rotates around the earth.
Many atmospheric pressures will trigger fish to become active.Weather is but one element which at times will increase feeding periods.Atmospheric pressure changes occur even under stable ,high or low pressure days.
The altitude where you fish seems to correlate also with moon and solar influences as also the atmospheric pressure variances from body of water .
One thing I am starting to learn is atmospheric tides that accompany tides in correlation with solar and lunar influences.These atmospheric tides seem to come aground,from what I understand they correlate with Lunar gravitational pulls that coincide with ocean tides.It surprising how far inland these changes occur,I suspect they may also add to small feeding windows that appear out of nowhere in a given day.These atmospheric tides may play a role in the displacement of isobars and incoming or outgoing weather systems whether be stable,high or low ,frontal or post frontal.
To make it easier for you to understand,The St Lawrence is the vital flow for most tributaries and rivers in Ontario and Quebec,essentially ocean tides comes as far as Quebec city,Accompanying these tides are self contained atmospheric pressure zones.
From what I understand the tides coming in will slow somewhat all flows and air masses at one period or another during the course of a day,accompanying these tides are the pressure zones in which we find atmospheric tides being brought in and out by the ocean's tides.Which in turn will draw or stall ISO bars that seperate and accompany air masses and weather system that create or draw post or pre frontal systems.
Isobars are A line drawn on a weather map connecting points of equal pressure . Isobars are generated from mean sea-level pressure reports and are given in millibars.
What it really amounts to is understanding why the bite occurred at the minor or major and the influences of ocean tides than bring along atmospheric tides that create resistance air mases and weather systems its correlation to feeding periods.
Essential tools : get a solunar watch,get John Alden Knight moon tables or Rick Taylors and then also observe when the ocean tides are and piece it together,then throw in the weather systems and look at the bends in the ISO bars and see where the Isobars bends are at in relation to the area you are fishing.
Throw in a atmospheric graph which shows hourly changes and you soon build tendencies to what times seem to be more productive.
Seems like allot but really its glancing over things and going out fishing all the while knowing when to be at the right place at the right time
Prime example of these Atmospheric tides is what happened in New York city last weekend given Monday was the full moon and a clash of air masses and atmospheric tides being influenced by ocean tides,giving birth to a Northeastern
If you take notice,many times the most extreme or severe weather occurs during these peak lunar times
To add to the barrage,even thought St Lawrence has Dams,weather incoming from the west as far as superior collide with weather from the east mainly due to the direction of the weather system.These systems create secci effect which move vast mounts of water.Some may consider it a great lakes tide but it is really a great lakes secci effect which all great lakes create flow and current among one another.Include lunar periods and weather systems and you basically have a similar situation over the great lakes.
I would suspect they are influenced by all air masses to west of em and east of em
On still water days with no wind,at times you observe little breezes,well these are air masses moving slowly
Only question I have not found answers for is where altitude comes to play.Given the closer we are to sea level ,atmospheric pressure has a great influence and the higher you go the less it has.So one could speculate that being closer to sea level fish and animal life in general would feel the effect of these factors much more so than those living in higher altitudes.
But I have yet to figure that out,cause I don't what the variances are from one end to the other,kinda neat when start digging
Here guys
http://www.quickoneplus.com/fish/barometric.htm
Keep in mind Barometric pressure is but 1 element that may trigger,It is truly unknown what factors are more determining or it may be a multitude of combined factors
BTW Weather is accompanied by air masses which in turn vary barometric pressure.Essentially you cant have any weather without some atmospheric tendencies or change with it.
I fully understand why some folks don't believe it,thats quite alright.Its something to look into.
When you understand it somewhat,it can be very eerie
Why is the myth of East winds what it is,Angler adaptation is what lacks,also they are the winds than generally come prior or during severe weather.Locations change and I suspect the larger specimens seem triggered by this incoming change more so than other times
If you really want to observe pressure in relation to fish.Watch you graph,some days fish are swimming around happy near the surface and throughout the water column,next day they are on the bottom,
atmospheric pressure is what causes this.It can go on for days on end,when fish are on the bottom,they can be caught but generally Humiliation is in order ;D
Although its difficult to correlate mainly because its bridging between meteorologies and astronomy putting all factors combined to determine all plausible effects
If you pay attention,these periods may bring precipitation or cease precipitation,they may very well be the peak of the precipitation
This is one way to pay close attention to weather nuances
Actually take a look at the pressure graph seems it peaked at 2 am and moved between 2-3 am
Also look at the wind velocity change on the graph
Check out the humidity graph you will notice they all switched exactly when it commenced
Wind graphs which show hourly switch and velocities often concur with barometric changes
the very basic observations mother nature offers
The watch is a good deal,correlate it with everything and you may place yourself at the right place and right time more often than not.
actually I think these atmospheric tides go well in land.
I suspect altitude may be the determining factor to lunar influences and Atmospheric tides.
Montreal is at 65 feet,wonder what Milwaukee or St Paul or Duluth are at?
Keep in mind we have tides on both coasts that influence weather disturbances
Doug Johnson touched upon something interesting about lunar effects,fish from as way back as the Dino age were influenced by tides,could it be a natural occurrence to move upon these times that goes as far back as prehistoric times.Quite intriguing his view on all this was,may very well be merrit to it
It may all sound like lingo and mumbo jumbo,but observing activities have led me to ask myself why all these things seem to come together at specific times.I am seeking relation with these changes in different areas in N.A.
I know it works in Jersey,put a friend on a fish in a certain location at a certain time 5 hours away.So something making this stuff come together
Its actually eerie like ,folks call me from all kinds of places and when I start firing out location and times,provinces and states away,when they call back and say UNREAL ,how you do that?
I tell em call myth busters ;D
Just as a simple exercise ,imagine tides coming in on both coast (east and west),figure what influence they have on weather incoming or outgoing.
Ex.weather coming in west coast and high tide(associated atmospheric tide with water tide) pushes the weather system in faster and might be more severe
East coast system moving out,you have low tide(Atmospheric tides drawing out along with tide water) system gets sucked out faster(thus blows out)
You can have tides coming in and halting systems in between the 2 coast so basically everyone from coast to coast is affected in one way or another
Its weird but,its something to consider
Another factor that has to be considered is fish have the ability to control their swim bladders to what point does these changes really have any bearing knowing they can control their swim bladders to a comfortable level for themselves but alas these changes seem to affect em,dramatically in some cases
I suspect this may allow some explanation to why for days on end its a shallow water bite then it turns to a deep bite for a period then as things settle down the shallow bite resumes
Its actually quite interesting to match up all influences in weather changes or stability and its effect on fish,when you connect the dots,some interesting sequences appear which enable you to the capturing of you targeted species
I observed this for both muskies and walleyes
Last May we calculated all factors which lead to a tremendous spring walleye bit which allowed us to boat 20 walleyes between 6 and 12.5 pounds,with the majority being over 8 pounds,that not considering the smaller ones we caught within this 4 week span
I think its not as much winds but genral regional seasonal weather that makes fish or predominent wind/weather good
In unstable regional seasonal weather,its when atmospheric swings stabilize the fish go
When regional seasonal weather is stable,its when atmospheric swings occur
no absolutes in fishing just observations
Mark is right,a few weeks back we had a low with good NW winds,not a common occurence but the fish when ballistic
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | The facts are clear. Atmospheric pressure does not have any affect of fish. The conditions above the water, which is affected by the EFFECTS of pressure is the key.
A front is a change is wind direction and a replacement of air temperature. That's it. It isn't about pressure changes. A front can have a no millibar change but the winds shift from the SE to the NW and that is the front. A cold or warm front that has cloud cover is going to give you great fishing, and a cold front that has, lets say a line of thunderstorms might cause an instant drop in light conditions and fish will react to that immiditaly. Why not? Fish are feeding all the time.
So, if a wind is coming out a certain direction and waves reduce light under water, fish will use that advantage to feed. IF a front moves over and the wind shifts and now that same spot you were fishing and having success has changed. The fish have now gone from having a large strike window and active to a small strike window and inactive. Changing conditions and watching how those conditions affect your lake will increase catches. A cold or
Clouds and winds, those items to affect fish because of the light transmission. That is all that a fish can sense. A fish in water, in a medium, can not FEEL pressure. Can't. Even if they could, why would they care. Air pressure differences are so slight that a fish would feel a .5 inch change in the water column.
Any fish has one purpose, to spawn, to carry on it's DNA to the next generation. A with that one purpose, they must feed and grow to be the largest or strongest fish to accomplish that task. Fish are also cold blooded and when the water temps start to drop, a fish does know that this is the signal to feed and put on weight for the winter, A, and to prepare for the spawn in the spring either to have fat for egg development and the make it through the winter. Sure, Predators can be Perch and Muskies.
Think of Salmon as the greatest example of this. Think about any good Salmon fishing experience, all low light with exemption of the spawn which is not even feeding but a reaction strike. Now that the lake is clear-(er) than it was before, now the Salmon push deeper to avoid light. And if Air Pressue was a factor, explain Salmon fishing on Lake Michigan. I highly doubt it.
If air pressure was a cause, then you would have to explain ice fishing. Why are Walleyes active during dusk and night? How would air pressure affect water under ice? Maybe it sneaks in through the holes? I think much more is the light penetration into the water that has more to do with it. Bright sunny days on the ice are great for panfish since they use light for feeding (how they are set up) and low light is great for the predators.
Fish are always feeding. if you can adjust based on knowing the fish and the conditions that affect them, light, temperature, you will catch more fish. Air pressure just isn't one of them. | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_front#Cold_front
You are incorrect in your statement as to what a 'front' is.
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'Movement is largely due to the pressure gradient force (due to horizontal differences in atmospheric pressure) and the Coriolis effect, caused by Earth's spinning about its axis. Frontal zones can be slowed down by geographic features like mountains and large bodies of warm water.[2]'
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Why when a front is approaching do I catch walleyes through the ice during the mid-day under sunny conditions? What about a cloudy period, where light penetration is near constant, and a warm front moves in and the fish move like crazy with no other discernible factor? my experience tells me weather effects the bite ice fishing just as much as open water.
Secchi disc readings during many weather events showed me light penetration was constant before and during the approach and passing of the front, yet the fish moved like crazy as the front approached. Wind speeds remained the close to constant until the front passed in these cases, when activity usually, but NOT always, slowed considerably.
So it's obvious to me at least that something else is in play here. | |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Front
A boundary or transition zone between two air masses of different density, and thus (usually) of different temperature. A moving front is named according to the advancing air mass, e.g., cold front if colder air is advancing. This is usually marked by a shift in wind direction.
Also, in your link, there is no reference to fronts and air pressure. You might be thinking of a Low pressure system and a High pressure system. Which a low is diverging air aloft and a high in converging air aloft and rising and sinking air respective. The pressure graditate force is wind and wind does push fronts but does not form them or deal with them.
Let me guess on the walleyes during mid day, deep water, heavy snow cover on the ice, probably diffused light at that depth. And I never said that fish don't bite during bright light conditions, they do get very negative. You can get them to bite if you change your presentation methods.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99516.htm
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | A better link done by Dr. Ross
http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/science/ross_pressure_myth.aspx | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I highlighted the reference to pressure gradients and movement of cold and warm fronts. Here it is again.
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Movement is largely due to the pressure gradient force (due to horizontal differences in atmospheric pressure) and the Coriolis effect, caused by Earth's spinning about its axis. Frontal zones can be slowed down by geographic features like mountains and large bodies of warm water.[2]
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I've read that article and other articles like it. His statements about how much the water column is effected by changes in barometric pressure isn't the issue. The issue is when a front is moving through, all other things equal, muskies are more active; same thing in my experience with solunar periods and overall fish and game activity. I compared both in a cooperative effort with Jim Cairnes using my daily fishing and guiding log data ( 10 years of daily logs on wind directions, water clarity, water temps, etc. I used to be very curious) and his extensive records many years ago using the barograph records from Nicolet Coillege and Solunar periods from Knight. As I have said, I don't know why, and when we can ask them and get an answer, then we will know. One thing for sure, I'll pay attention, because I find that to be productive.
I've seen the same thing in my aquarium here warching Muskies and Pike, Crappies, Bass, and Perch. My Crappies were going goofy as the storms were moving in this morning, cruising the tank and chasing other fish around. Norm called me, and said his client got a 39 and he moved a big girl. Hmmm.
When the storm hit, my Crappies went to the bottom of the tank and are still there right now. I bet during the solunar major this afternoon, they will be out and about again.
Nope, the walleyes move when the snow cover is light. Same with Pike, that REALLY is obvious. I shoot hours and hours of underwater video, and have watched fish activity pick up as a front moves in on my camera. | |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Yes, pressure gradient force is a fancy way to say wind. Air moves from high pressure system to a low pressue system. Has nothing to do with the front itself. So a change in pressure isn't a front. Like I said before, fish are always feeding, but if you don't adjust to the changing conditions you might not catch those fish, or you might not know what the adjustment has to be. You can't refer that to the fish stopped feeding due to a front.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sure I can. I believe I did.
Front goes through, High Pressure begins moving in, wind switches from SW to W all the while light velocities so it isn't moving life forms around in the water, and the hot frontal bite goes south. ALL under equal cloud cover, with no other factors I can measure. I've seen this so many times it's impossible to ignore.
Nothing to do with the front itself? A Low (as in PRESSURE) spinning in counterclockwise pushing thunderstorms ahead of the front has nothing to do with differences in atmospheric pressure? Upper winds, as in the Jet Stream, effects where the lows and highs move through and in our case here how much moisture, cold air, etc. will be involved in that frontal movement and associated weather. Cut off the Gulf moisture or Canadian air, and we can have a low or a high move through without much change in the skies or temperatures at all. Maybe we are talking about different functions of both effects, but leading edges of low pressure and high pressure systems are clearly marked on every weather map I have ever seen.
I've also observed that sustained slow moving lower than average pressure ( here usually associated with an sustained East wind because of the system's position over the fine state of Wisconsin) seems to put the fish off the bite. Weird stuff. | |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | The front is north of you in the U.P Mich. It's been there a while. Hasn't affected your weather at all today. So, the fish that were caught today were caught under constant pressure. Your fish in the tank are experiencing no change in pressure. If you go by that standard. Here is the current weather for RHI.
http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/KRHI.html
Pressure is steady.
On the first map, where is the clear marks between pressure air masses? How about the low over Lake Erie? no fronts associated with it? It just isn't about pressure....
Notice the warm front to the west of Wisconsin, the ISO bars run through the front. This is equal pressure across the front. In every case of the front, it is a change in wind direction and temperature, not pressure. Fronts are not associated with pressure...
Edited by Muskiemetal 10/6/2007 12:30 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, the low moving to the east centered on the Nebraska border pushing against the High centered over the East coast DID effect our weather today and still is as the warm front moved to the north and temps here warm to a very unseasonable 77 to 80 degrees. We had a squall line move through this morning associated with that now stationary line, creating some pretty impressive thunder boomers and very heavy rain. The fish moved just before that cell went through along the frontal line. Look at the maps you posted and then the Doppler radar in Michigan. Those cells are currently moving through the UP along the stationary front line there. I bet the barograph spiked downward when that group of cells went through.
Also, I never said large increments of change were necessary, I fell that the effect is from the TREND (falling, rising or stable) and variations along that line ( the spikes I refer to) that are the culprits.
Since you posted your barometric pressure maps, the frontal line has stalled and is now stationary across the UP of Michigan and Northern Wisconsin. Looks like it will remain in that position somewhat through tomorrow.
I know what causes thunderstorms, and the system there is what's causing the warm moist air to ride up over the frontal line and form the storm cells. If the High was still controlling the weather here, it'd be nice and sunny. No frontal line, no warm air meets colder air.
From the Weather Channel:
'Surface maps depict the large-scale elements of the weather. These elements include high and low pressure systems, cold and warm fronts, and precipitation areas.
A high pressure system is an area of relative pressure maximum that has diverging winds and a rotation opposite to the earth's rotation. Fair weather is typically associated with high pressure.
A low pressure system is an area of relative pressure minimum that has converging winds and rotates in the same direction as the earth. This is counterclockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere. Stormy weather is often associated with low pressure systems.
A cold front is the leading edge of an advancing cold air mass that is under running and displacing the warmer air in its path. Generally, with the passage of a cold front, the temperature and humidity decrease, the pressure rises, and the wind shifts (usually from the southwest to the northwest in the Northern Hemisphere). Precipitation is generally at and/or behind the front, and with a fast-moving system, a squall line may develop ahead of the front.
A warm front is the leading edge of an advancing warm air mass that is replacing a retreating relatively colder air mass. Generally, with the passage of a warm front, the temperature and humidity increase, the pressure rises, and although the wind shifts (usually from the southwest to the northwest in the Northern Hemisphere), it is not as pronounced as with a cold frontal passage. Precipitation, in the form of rain, snow, or drizzle, is generally found ahead of the surface front, as well as convective showers and thunderstorms. Fog is common in the cold air ahead of the front. Although clearing usually occurs after passage, some conditions may produce fog in the warm air. '
We could go on with this forever. You ignore the barometer, I'll watch it, and we both will be confident in our interpretation of what the fish should do.
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | The thunderstorms were caused by warm moist air riding up over the warm front. As warm air is moving from the south it rides up the cooler air and clouds form and thunderstorms. This is no relation to the low pressure center to the east. The low has nothing to do with the front.
The fish were active during a reduction in light due to cloud cover. The storms caused that and then when the cells moved east, the fish were negative again. Probably some lightning can cause fish to be skittish as well after they push through. Since the pressure was stable the entire last 24 hours, stating that pressure has a role is defunked.
Edited by Muskiemetal 10/6/2007 2:42 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Heavy cloud cover was a constant from dawn until about an hour ago, so how could something totally non existent be the trigger? The fish moved before the storms came through, it was heavy overcast before and after.
My barometer fell quite a bit since last night. The frontal line stalled and is now stationary. Looking to the west, the trend is still destined to be downward, looks like.
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | 3 PM 29.97 (1014) S 12
2 PM 29.98 (1015) S 7
1 PM 29.99 (1015) S 3
Noon 29.99 (1015) S 5
11 AM 30 (1015) SSW 7 mist
10 AM 29.97 (1014) SE 5 light rain with thunder; mist
9 AM 30.01 (1016) SSW 10
8 AM 29.97 (1014) SSW 7 light rain; mist
7 AM 29.98 (1015) S 5 mist
6 AM 29.99 (1015) S 3 mist
5 AM 29.99 (1015) SSW 6 mist
4 AM 29.99 (1015) SW 3 light rain; mist
3 AM 29.99 (1015) SW 8
2 AM 29.98 (1015) SE 7 light rain with thunder; mist
1 AM 29.99 (1015) S 7 thunder in the vicinity
Midnight 30.04 (1017) SE 5 mist
11 PM 30.03 (1016) ESE 3 mist
10 PM 30.03 (1016) SE 6
9 PM 30.03 (1016) SE 7
8 PM 30.03 (1016) SE 7 light rain with thunder; mist
7 PM 30.02 (1016) E 6
6 PM 30.02 (1016) ESE 7
5 PM 30.03 (1016) E 6
4 PM 30.04 (1017) E 7 light rain
This is the last 24 hours in RHI. No change in pressure.
I calculated the difference of 4 millibars of pressure per square inch and 4 millibars is .5 ounces per square inch of surface. This would be applied to the surface of a lake. I don't think a fish would sense that. The Low to the east is 1016 millibars and RHI is at 1015. So, 1/4 of 1/2 ounce of pressure change from the Low in Canada to Wiscosin. You can't say that pressure has anything to do with it.....
Edited by Muskiemetal 10/6/2007 2:57 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes I can, and I did. trend has been downward, as your last post indicates.Oldest was:
Oldest 4 PM (20) Oct 05 69.1 (20.6) 64.0 (17.8) 30.04 (1017) E 7 light rain
Latest, now that the frontal line has become stationary, as in NOT MOVING:
3 PM (19) Oct 06 75.9 (24.4) 66.9 (19.4) 29.97 (1014) S 12
So now I'm headed out on my favorite local lake on a lower barometer than day before yesterday, and lower than yesterday. To me, that's a trend.
Look at this:
11 AM (15) Oct 06 71 (22) 66 (19) 30 (1015) SSW 7 mist
10 AM (14) Oct 06 68 (20) 64 (18) 29.97 (1014) SE 5 light rain with thunder; mist
9 AM (13) Oct 06 69 (21) 66 (19) 30.01 (1016) SSW 10
The spike I suspected went with that cell was there. I will exit this discussion now and go try to catch that muskie I missed on a Weagle last night.
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | I think this is the start of www.weatherFIRST.com
Aaron | |
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Posts: 2024
| This looks like lecture notes for a climatology class or something. My brain hurts.
Edited by esox50 10/6/2007 4:06 PM
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Your right, we are going to come to the same conclusions about fish behavior, either way you look at it....
Good luck on the water....
Chad | |
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Posts: 91
| I have a digital barometer about the size of a stop watch and many times when the pressure drops you can feel it before hand, the rain comes or the fog and it becomes something you get sensitive to and fish with a lot of confidence. For about 3 years I have fished before and during the rain and someone almost always catshes a fish, having follows or hookups has been nearly 100% during this time. Thge high pressure doesn't have that same feeling of electricity in the air but wind driven waves seem get you thinking about windblown points,bars,bays and such and that seems to be good too! | |
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Location: The desert | Man....this is longer than some of my text books.....which I can also not read in one sitting.....very interesting discussion though! | |
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Posts: 2024
| Pointerpride102 - 10/8/2007 10:36 PM
Man....this is longer than some of my textbooks....
What's a textbook? Must be the thing I spent all that money on at the beginning of the year and haven't picked up since.... lol | |
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| Here's a little tip that I learned from the boys on The Bassmasters.
When you are throwing a topwater, and the bubbles pop right away or never appear, or it doesn't leave a trail, put it away. It seems that with low pressure, the bubbles from the topwater won't pop and they'll leave a trail on the surface of the water.
This guy was adamant about it...No bubble trail, no topwater. Bubbles that don't pop, barometric pressure condusive to good feeding activity.
"What does "Pop goes the weasel mean? Does the weasel actually pop?" Andy Sipowitz | |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | If a blue tick hound stratches it's ear on the left side, the fishn' is goin' be goodn'.... | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Like I said, when we can ask the muskies and they can answer, we will know for sure. | |
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Posts: 341
| On my Casio tough solar watch it measures barometric pressure by hpa. The measurement is not widely used by most. What is is a significant pressure change by this measurement? Right now it's 987hpa, if it dropped to 984hpa in a six hour period would that be significant?
Thanks | |
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Location: Hugo, MN | muskycore - 10/9/2007 5:54 PM
On my Casio tough solar watch it measures barometric pressure by hpa. The measurement is not widely used by most. What is is a significant pressure change by this measurement? Right now it's 987hpa, if it dropped to 984hpa in a six hour period would that be significant?
Thanks
Hectopascals = Millibars | |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | 1 hPa is equivalent to 1 mb.... so in a sense hPa is very widely used. I'd say 3 mb in 6 hours is significant but a great way to find out for yourself is to check on wunderground.com where they keep historic records for every day for every city, you can look at a graph of the pressure trends. I'd reccommend looking up a significant weather event and see how large the change is there. | |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | I'm sorry, now that I have some time to post a response I can't help but correct some misinformation.
muskiemetal: "Yes, pressure gradient force is a fancy way to say wind. Air moves from high pressure system to a low pressue system."
stdevos: No, pressure gradient force (PGF) is not just a fancy way to say wind. PGF describes the force that makes air move from high pressure to low pressure. Therefore, PGF is always pointing from high to low. However, we know that wind does not usually blow perpendicular to isobars but rather parallel. The formula for wind is PGF + Coriolis Force + Frictional. I'd say PGF is a fancy way to say gravity.
muskiemetal:"Fronts are not associated with pressure..."
stdevos: I don't understand how you can say this. My question would be how is pressure not associated with a front? Why is there a big L on every cold front that passes. By definition a contrast in temperatures is what a front is but even by the ideal gas law pressure is "associated". Pressure is a major reason why fronts are structured how they are (in particular the wind rotating around the L). So please explain further, perhaps I'm taking this the wrong way. The most common way of drawing a warm and cold front free hand on a map by meteorologists is by looking ONLY at a pressure map.
muskiemetal: "The low has nothing to do with the front. "
stdevos: Again, explain how a low has nothing to do with a front. There is always a big L there for a reason, and if there isn't one there should be.
sworrall: "You ignore the barometer, I'll watch it, and we both will be confident in our interpretation of what the fish should do."
stdevos: I basically agree with everything that you have written. There is no question that a moving barometer indicates a potential feeding window as well as a change in weather. Like you say though, we have no way of knowing the why and that was my initial point. I'm certain (in my mind) that atmospheric pressure does not affect fish directly. I'm on the electricity (lightning) in the air kick, which i referenced in the article by Gene Smith. It makes more sense biologically.
My only question for Mr Worrall would be, just out of interest, how large of pressure spikes are you attributing the feeding windows to?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm not 'attributing' anything, actually. I used barograph records and Knight's Solunars to look into any possible correlation to success in my daily guiding logs. There was, at least as far as I could tell. A shift or spike like the one listed in this thread was associated ( keep in mind there may be other variables) frequently to short activity windows not associated with a solunar period.
Sometimes that spike was an upward movement in an otherwise downward trend, or the opposite. Sometimes it was a spike up or down following the trend. Many times the change was short lived, but was associated with a little wind shift. All I know is catching fish at those times was a pretty common thing, so it's (perhaps too easy) logical to assume an association. | |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | Thanks for the quick response Steve. I agree with you, and don't understand how you couldn't, that barometric changes are definitely associated with fish activity. This has always been a topic that intrigues me. The problem is that I just don't get enough time on the water to make any definitive theories, so I'm just going to agree with you on this. | |
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| You guys are great on your defending arguements, but reading it is causing me stress. The best time to go fishing is any day that ends in "Y". | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | True enough, but there's this little voice in my head asking the most irritating question some days. That question has always been.....
Why?? | |
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| That will be the first question I ask waiting in line at the pearly gates. I just hope I'm in the right place to get the answer. Unless of course, I get reincarnated as a fish than I'll have hands on experience. My wife thinks its going to be the later. | |
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Location: Wisconsin | ""muskiemetal: "Yes, pressure gradient force is a fancy way to say wind. Air moves from high pressure system to a low pressue system."
stdevos: No, pressure gradient force (PGF) is not just a fancy way to say wind. PGF describes the force that makes air move from high pressure to low pressure. Therefore, PGF is always pointing from high to low. However, we know that wind does not usually blow perpendicular to isobars but rather parallel. The formula for wind is PGF + Coriolis Force + Frictional. I'd say PGF is a fancy way to say gravity. ""
Right, PGF flows parallel to lines of equal pressure. Nothing to do with Gravity at all. It is the primary cause of wind on a macroscale. Friction is the earths surface causing a slight difference in the flow of wind. This has everything to do with wind and nothing to do with gravity.
""stdevos: I don't understand how you can say this. My question would be how is pressure not associated with a front? Why is there a big L on every cold front that passes. By definition a contrast in temperatures is what a front is but even by the ideal gas law pressure is "associated". Pressure is a major reason why fronts are structured how they are (in particular the wind rotating around the L). So please explain further, perhaps I'm taking this the wrong way. The most common way of drawing a warm and cold front free hand on a map by meteorologists is by looking ONLY at a pressure map.""
Fronts are a difference in wind speed, temperature and sometimes but not always a change in pressure. A front is a replacement of one type of air mass with another. Pressure doesn't neccessary have to change for this to occur. A low pressure center does not have to be involved with a cold front. All a cold front is, is cooler air replacing warmer air. A low could have fronts associated with it due to the types of air masses it is relating to and how winds are flowing in and around it. A cut off low will wrap different temperatures and in flows of moisture to develop a system of fronts that move with it. This has nothing to do with the pressure, but the winds and temperatures. This is what you see.
Fronts are drawn on maps by looking for the change in wind direction. That is how they are decided. The temperature of the air replacing will determine what type of front it is. I drew up plenty of pressure charts and it was the change in wind direction and a change in temperature that was my indication of a front. In fact, just a few days ago, we had a stationary front set up with no change in pressure.
If you can explain how a .10 of an ounce change in the pressure applied to the surface of a lake can change a fish, please. I say, why would a fish care??? What would it mean to a fish that deals with pressures much more greater have to care about something that was pushing down on the surface with .10 of a ounce of force. It doesn't change the water or change things in the water.
If you say that pressure can somehow be applied through the water, then you would have to explain how every hydraulic system in the world works.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No one said a fish 'cares'. Anthropomorphism tied in with your description of weather system 'possibilities' makes for much more of a 'liberal' interpretation than I will care to debate.
I've directly observed fish behavior during changes in barometric pressure. I also observed fish behavior during spikes up and down during a trend, falling OR rising. Ah well, I repeat myself....
If indeed there is absolutely positively no barometric pressure change and there's a dead level stable barometer (no low or high influencing local weather with a rising or falling trend and no temporary spikes up or down) and there is a change in the weather, it's not a 'front' that would concern me much unless the skies changed dramatically. Even then if you start taking detailed records and comparing them as I did, I'll bet you will find the bite under those conditions to be flat outside of solunar period influences, dawn, and dusk.
So how would I 'predict' the weather using a barometer?
Why would a fish care when moonrise is? How would a fish care about sun/moon/earth relationships? Fish don't 'care' IMHO, but I think they react. Knowing how, when, and why a possible correlation with anything possibly effecting the pattern is part of what I do to LOOK for an overall pattern.
Sure worked for me this summer.....right, TJ?
Call it what you will, I call it all part of a pattern. | |
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Location: Madtown, WI | muskiemetal:
Ok, I guess I did understand you, you are really saying that pressure is not associated with fronts. This is not a battle that you can win. You can buy personal at-home weather stations for ~$50 that forecast 24 hours based solely on pressure changes. I do agree with you that wind is a great tool for adding details to your frontal boundary but give me a 1000-500mb thickness map and I can draw you a fairly accurate boundary in seconds.
In regards to PGF, you are wrong. PGF absolutely does not flow parallel to lines of constant pressure, rather it flows perpendicular to isobars.... directly from areas of high pressure to low pressure. The coriolis force turns the wind 90 degrees to the right in the northern hemisphere, and that is why wind flows parallel to isobars. Friction at the surface can then change the wind further. Again, WIND = PGF + COR + Friction. If you really think about it, PGF is actually a result of gravity. Think of the same situation in a lake, if there is more water on one side of the lake (high pressure) than the other (low pressure), GRAVITY will cause the water to flow from the area of more water (high pressure) to the side with less water (low pressure) until the lake reaches equilibrium. Shake an aquarium left to right and watch it happen. It works exactly the same way in the atmosphere, just replace water per square area with air per square area.
I agree with you though, why would a fish care? Still, paying attention to the barometer is a great tool to predict fish activity. Is it always right? No. Do we know why? No. But I'm definitely listening to what Mr. Worrall has to say since my experience has been very similar to his (probably not as big though).
If anybody else has actually read this far, I commend you. For your patience, I wish you a fall fatty. Thank me later  | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I love discussions like this. I learned alot and refreshed old classes in the old grey cranium, thanks guys.
Sometimes a particular pattern is easy to pin down, sometimes not.
I see it like any other puzzle, keep trying to get the pieces to fit. When one fits, look it over, and move on the the next... | |
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Location: Minneapolis | muskiemetal:
I think you may have confused correlation with causation. I don't think anyone has enough data to show a barometric change *causes* fish to change behavior. As you correctly point out, any atmospheric change would not be detectable under water.
I think what Steve is saying is fish behavior is *correlated* to barometric changes. Cold temperatures are correlated with snow, but snow certainly does not cause cold temperatures.
But does it really matter if the changing barometer is only correlated to muskie activity? The barometer is something we can observe and measure, if it helps us find more active fish, I'm all over it. | |
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Location: Wisconsin | It was put simply, winds generally flow parallel to isos. Yes, it is equalibrium, but I wouldn't call it gravity. That is not the correct term. But a front is a change in wind direction and that is how meterologists plot them.
I have attached a current 500-1000mb thinkness and surface. Please explain how each low pressure center doesn't always have a front associated with it. Also explain how the high pressure centers do not as well. If we use your intereptation of a front, each one of those "L" and "H" should have a front AROUND it. If that is how you explain a front, then a front should be around each of those systems. Not the case.
You can also explain how fronts are across lines of equal pressure. Doesn't this also violate your understanding? You can see each of the cut off lows in the Atlantic or Pacific have a warm and cold front running across pressure lines. The pressure is the same on either side of the front.
Steve, I wasn't actually stating that fish "feel", but how would a fish react to a pressure change and how would a fish use that pressure change for feeding. Why does pressure change give it an advantage to feed or to be inactive. Fish move all the time and it can be for many reasons which the majority of them relate to food. A slight change in the amount of pressure exerted on the surface of a lake isn't going to do that. Air pressure can not transfer into the water and thus a fish can not sense it.
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Rpike, that is what I have been trying to say all along. pressure changes, fronts, etc bring with it changing weather patterns. Wind direction and speed and cloud cover have an effect on fish due to light penetration in the water. Just as murky water reduces visability, it is the same for waves on a lake or a cloudy day. Just as Walleyes can be caught in 16 feet of water on Winnebago on the brightest day, versus up north you wouldn't catch a walleye in clear water in the same depth.
However, fronts and visibility in the water isn't controlled by air pressure. A barometer is a tool that limits a fisherman, not helps. Fish are always biting, you just have to adjust the presentation to fit the mood. Like was said before, the best day to fish is a day with Y on the end....
Edited by Muskiemetal 10/11/2007 10:01 PM
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Location: Madtown, WI | muskiemetal:
I'll save everyones time (including my own) and not go into more detail. Fronts are definitely associated with pressure. I'm sorry that your not seeing what I'm seeing but I see pressure associated with every front drawn on the maps you provided.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Metal, you use what you want to develop your fishing patterns, I'll use what I want.
Ignore barometric pressure changes all you want.
I won't.
How many times do I have to ask the same question, and get a "LOOK OVER THERE!!!" answer?
WHAT IF THERE'S NO SKY CONDITION CHANGE, NO SOLUNAR EVENT (WHICH YOU CANNOT ACCEPT HAS ANY CORRELATION BY YOUR ARGUMENT ANYWAY), AND THERE'S A SUDDEN SHORT WINDOW OF ACTIVITY, NO WAVE HEIGHT CHANGES, NO FREAKING 'LIGHT LEVEL' CHANGES, BUT A SPIKE OR CHANGE IN THE barometric pressure (heck, I can WATCH the popple leaves turn over!) AND AN ACTIVITY PERIOD COINCIDE??????
(obvious answer, same one I have..."I don't know"... try it on!)
I used a freaking secchi disc (http://dipin.kent.edu/secchi.htm) for YEARS to collect fishing log data. Not a freaking Color C-lector, the real deal. I understand CLEARLY how light and water interact, and have a TON of information on how the different species of fish's vision systems utilize that available light. I even went to the extreme of using a spectrograph and known light penetration levels to recreate conditions underwater in VERY clear water. Other than the obvious cloudy VS clear, dawn/dark rising/falling In Fish Chart related and proven activity 'periods', you are off the edge on that one,IMHO.
'Fish are always biting'.
No, they are not. Many days I subscribe to the Howie Meyer school of thought that one should not leave big fish to find big fish. They 'move' AND 'DON'T MOVE' with some predictability, and that sir is a pattern.
I cover the best of the best fishing tournaments for up to $150,000.00 first place on the top producing walleye waters across North America, and some days the fish in general are on a VERY tough bite--- low light levels and all. When half the field zeros and almost NO big fish are caught on Erie, it's been a tough day, and these guys do this for a living. Believe me, these guys are on the fish AND the big fish and know how to make 'em bite if anyone can, so it ain't that, either. Guess what time of day MOST of the walleyes are caught during that competition, no matter Winnebago or Lake Michigan or Devil's Lake or the Missouri River? It would also amaze you the number of 'eyes caught in very clear water on very sunny days in very shallow water.....
More anthropomorphism, fish don't HAVE 'moods' as we use the term. That implies a level of intelligence that simply isn't there.
Friday I have a problem...what to do? Fish, hunt birds, hunt ducks, or bow hunt? Think I'll fish the evening, looks like a good pattern setting up.....then again, the deer will move an hour before dusk.... | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | Everyone:
I made the original post looking to get a better handle on this subject/science. As it turned out, I had a box-seat to the "world series thread" on barometric pressure as it relates (for me) specifically to Musky fishing.
Thanks to all, and a special thanks to Steve. I have been following the thread closely now for some days, and feel as if I just got Wille Mays autograph.
The science, detail, and thought put into this subject and thread as it relates to fishing is astounding... as I see it.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 10/12/2007 7:50 AM
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Location: Hugo, MN | A Front is defined as the transition zone or interface between two air masses of different densities, which usually means different temperatures. Nothing more, nothing less. Front is a general term and can be preceded by the following adjectives: Cold, Warm, Sea Breeze, Gust, Pseudo-Cold, Pseudo-Warm, Wrapping Gust, Kata, Occluded, Polar, Stationary, Quasi-Stationary.
IMHO, the 3 things that seem effect "the bite", and wild animals in general, the most are:
Barometric Pressure
Moon Period
Sunrise/Sunset
When 1 or more of the factors coincide with each other is normally when things explode. I've read some really convoluted explanations of "weather" on this thread and to be honest most guys are making things way more complicated than they need to be. First rule of fishing is that the best time to fish is whenever you can get out because even though we all know that during a full moon with Sunset and a Front approaching is the best time to be out it still doesn't guarantee fish. If you're trying to plan around all these factors you'll frustrate yourself more than you could possibly imagine. JUST FISH BABY!!
Jason Sturm
B.S. Atmospheric Physics - University of Arizona
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Location: Wisconsin | Just explain how a fish in water can sense a change in air pressure and thus would know that it is time to feed. That is what is being stated. When a "spike" occurs, what would that do to a fish that would entice them to begin feeding?
Plus, I never said that fish never bite during bright sunny days. It is just the strike zone of the fish shrinks and the fish can be negative. Depending on the fish, walleyes and such. A slow verticle presentation is best in clear water. Fish are always feeding, it is up to the fisherman to find out what it takes.
Take Bass fishing for simplistic explainations. low light conditions will have Bass up and chasing crankbaits or spinnerbaits. However, if the sun breaks out, then you must turn to fishing tight into structure, docks, edges. This has been proven....
I agree, keeping track of .01 changes in mb's is drastic. Just go fishing....
""Never say, "The fish aren't biting." They're ALWAYS biting. There's no such thing as a lake where the fish aren't biting. They're just not biting what you have to offer! They have seen what you've presented and said, "No.""
---Al Lindner
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Location: Hugo, MN | "Fish are always feeding, it is up to the fisherman to find out what it takes. "
That's B as in B, S as in S. Plain and Simple. I have had situations where I could see muskies and threw the tackle box at them drug and dropped lures in front of their mouths and on top of their head, etc. Sometimes the Muskies just don't bite. It's a fact of life and I have no explanation for it. | |
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| marine_1 - 10/12/2007 4:54 PM
"Fish are always feeding, it is up to the fisherman to find out what it takes. "
That's B as in B, S as in S. Plain and Simple. I have had situations where I could see muskies and threw the tackle box at them drug and dropped lures in front of their mouths and on top of their head, etc. Sometimes the Muskies just don't bite. It's a fact of life and I have no explanation for it.
Somewhere in these many lines, some guy said that Muskies are wierd...
I think he's right. | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | First, Al Lindner is an acquaintance; I've known the guy for a very long time.. He's a great guy and an icon in this sport, but he gets skunked too.
Fish are always biting SOUNDS great, but sorry, sometimes they simply are not. EXPLAIN THAT!! PM<A demands we keep a positive position, but come on, some days just plain suck, even though everything looks great. Why?? You going to tell me that's light penetration?
Some days the bite is VERY VERY tough. Yes, someone will usually catch a fish, but it isn't because that guy had some magic, usually it's just plain good fortune to trip across a fish that triggered. And some days NO one on the entire lake puts a Ski in the boat.
Second, I'm a Bass angler first, Muskie second. I catch Bass in BRIGHT sunny conditions, and out on the flats. In fact, we did exactly that today. When the sun shows, some days I get as far from the 'structure' you describe, and on purpose. You need to follow FLW and BASS more, quite a bit of the old guard accepted 'norms' have changed.
As I asked you to explain a bunch of times about the correlation ( no necessarily cause, as was pointed out) between barometric pressure and fish activity--- YOU TELL ME, without the light thing, you are still ignoring my question and hollering "look over THERE!!!"
I don't pretend to have the answers, but I know what I see and see what I know. Something happens out there, and some day it might just be explained. Until that time, I'll watch the barometer and adjust my patterns accordingly.
I never said fish 'know' a darned thing. You keep saying that, and using it to argue with me. Please...
And Muskies ARE weird. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | I have one question for myself, why am I going to school at UWSP when I should be going to UW-Steve Worrall? haha. Mr.Worrall I'm thinking you have a backup career choice if need be!
I haven't had the time this past week to read all this but glad I took the time tonight. What a thread! I really don't have much to add to this but other than being on the water with Mr. Worrall multiple days with incoming front and every other weather conditions possible, I would definitely have to agree with the things Mr.Worrall has to say.
Edited by Merckid 10/12/2007 9:16 PM
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| In all seriousness, I am taking a few things away from this thread that I had not in my mind previously. The tidbits of information that have been stored by soem of you guys is great. | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I am quite curious as to what Doug Johnson would have to say in response to some of the points made in this thread.
Hey Doug ... can you add to / report / refute some of the highlights here?
Craig
Edited by cjrich 10/13/2007 3:14 AM
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Wow! Pretty interesting discussion.
"I'm certain (in my mind) that atmospheric pressure does not affect fish directly."
"A slight change in the amount of pressure exerted on the surface of a lake isn't going to do that. Air pressure can not transfer into the water and thus a fish can not sense it. "
K- I'm not a ichthyologist, nor am I a Weatherman, and I don't play either on the TV. Who would have thought that certain birds have a built in magnetic compass. This is something similar, i.e., we can't ask them. However, through field observation there seems to be a correlation between pressure changes and fish activity. So, I think fish can sense these pressure gradients (read change in pressure). What the above quoted statement's ignore is both the fact that fish have swim bladder's and Boyles Law. Given a stable temperature, there is a predictable relationship between the volume of the swim bladder and the surrounding pressure. Oh yes, don't forget about the hydraulics of water, i.e., that's how the surface pressure change gets transfered to the swim bladder.
Al | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Steve VanLieshout, Muskie anlger extrordinare, says...
1st rule in Muskie Fishing?
There are no rules.
Best time to go?
When you can!
Please don't misunderstand, I don't freak out over a slight change ( but I might adjust); this is all just a portion of any given day on the water's overall make-up. Some days location trumps any changes and one needs do nothing different. Most days from my data that was the case because I wasn't looking for it back then.
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Well!
Guess I'm not really into pressure changes, fronts, moon rises, and sets, enviromental changes, wind, and all the other stuff that folks can measure. I have the feeling that muskie fisherman like to have something that can be somehow measured or recorded and that's the reason fish bite or don't bite. By doing that we feel that we can somehow predict future fishing success.
After many thousands of days of fishing and many-many fish (we got three today including a 50"er) I have the feeling that what makes fish bite is far to complicated to actually figure out. It's probably a combination of many factors (the biggest one is probably how long it's been since the fish last ate, which is totaly unknown). Weather somehow enters in (probably not barometric pressure, but what changes in weather the changes in pressure brings). No doubt there are many other factors that we don't understand, see, or feel that effect fish behavior.
What I do with all this is just simply fish good spots (the best I know that match the time of year), and fish long and hard. Sooner or later I'll find a fish that's ready to bite.
Not much you can do about weather, but there's a lot you can do about location.
Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 10/13/2007 9:32 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't just like to try to find correlation and see if I can figure out the ways, I REALLY like that part of the challenge and always have. Different strokes, I guess.
Same thing as you Doug, many thousands of days, hours, and fish. We only got one in the Frabill today in Rhinelander, but lost three ( one of which was a very high 40's to 50" class), just bad luck. The activity window coincided exactly with the Major, but after that to dusk the bite was deader than dead. Best activity was about 1 PM to two hours after. We moved 7. The wind shifted from NW to N and back to NW during one hour in which we saw 4 of the 7 and Slamr caught a 40. He should have had a mid 40" fish on a Perka, the thing literally exploded on it and came unpinned. We fished from 9 Am to dark without a break. 600 acre lake, location is pretty easy there.
I agree totally with your 'no doubt' caveat. Congrats on the 50! | |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Well:
Our bite yesterday was in between 9:00 and 10:00, three fish in an hour, including the 50"er. Nothing happening at all till around 4:00 PM and then we
managed to lose a couple of fish.
Today was mixed. Two fish in the AM, again at the first spot. Then one right after noon, and another in the late afternoon.
Weather on both days was dead calm, and partly sunny, or partly cloudy (depending on how you look at it). No wind switches, no enviromental changes, not much of anything that I can tell, yet the fish seemed to be biting.
Beats me!
I just fish good spots.
Doug Johnson | |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We had a morning bite yesterday too, but didn't hook them up. Saw the other three during that timeframe. Today the fish were moving when we got there for about 1/2 hour, but went totally dead other than a low 30" fish that literally nibbled a Wabull and a couple fish that looked over the sucker.
Cloudy all day. It's raining now, thank goodness, we need it. | |
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