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Posts: 305
Location: Illinois | I am seeing all these posts about the weight of fish. I wonder if our zest to question estimates of fish is going to backfire on us as musky fisherman. It used to be that you caught a nice fish, put the stick on the fish, and let it go. Now some are measuring fish, girthing fish, and weighing fish. I wonder how that is good for the fishery or the fisherman. I would say that unless a fish is close to a record, why girth the fish at all or weigh the fish? How about putting a quick stick on the fish, taking a picture, and letting her go. Are we overdocumenting or am I just old school? When it comes to nice , but not record size muskies, isn't "49 inches and fat" enough? |
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| taking an accurate measurement on a bumpboard takes mere seconds, it doesn't hurt the fish or fishery...girthing a fish in the water if you wanna know how fat it is takes seconds..again, doesn't hurt the fish or fishery....some guys like to be accurate...some guys don't care whether it was 47 or 47.75....to each their own but saying guys that want to measure a fishes length or girth is harming the fish....that is ridiculous...imo |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I completely agree with Husky. I would even go so far as to say that the proliferation of 50" muskies on some bodies of water have ruined the experience for some anglers that don't "measure up". I even know of one person that took out a local guide and was completely disappointed that he didn't get a 50"er and stiffed him on the tip. I guess the 49"er he caught wasn't good enough.
Let's face it, nobody needs to girth a fish unless you're going to make a replica. Who honestly cares how fat a fish is down to the inch? When people come to me with a L x G it actually makes me think less of the angler, especially when it's either not a big fish or one with a common build. It all boils down to ego.
Edited by Muskie Treats 9/26/2007 11:10 AM
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| need and want to know are two different things Treats..I got a fat 49.5 a month ago...did I "need" to girth it...no, but the guy with me wanted to, so he did and now I know..it wasn't to "measure up" with anyone else...
just to know... you don't care to girth fish, fine, but don't jump on guys who like to know for the simple reason of just wanting to know....
I have girthed maybe 5 of my fish in the last 2 yrs...now guys that are girthing 38 inchers as I've seen posted...that seems a little funny to me..  |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | anybody who feels they need to "measure-up" to someone else is flawed to begin with ... but, if you're out there hanging your photos and "measurements" up all over the place ... then at least you should be accurate or bear the brunt of comic relief from the ones you are trying to impress.
tournaments, league and big fish (lol) get measured ... or not (lol) accurately and as bn says, anyone saying it's harmful is sending the wrong signal it can be done right (lol) ... bump boards are quick, easy for some (lol) and reduce time if done properly ... LMAO |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | I measure all of my fish "just to know". Some are just quick in water measurements with close estimates. I keep a detailed log and I like having the most accurate information that I can have in there, all for personal use. I definitely don't need the measurements for other people to know. I actually prefer to keep that information to myself. Like bn said, it takes a matter of seconds to get a measurement. If I measure the girth, it's always an in the water estimate. I weighed one musky 17 years ago and I don't intend on weighing one again. At that time, I plugged the measurements of that fish into the formula and compared it to the actual weight and it was within 2 ounces. Even within a few pounds is a close enough estimate for me if I even care to know.
I do think some people go a little over board. But compare it to where we were 35+ years ago when most of these fish had to be brought to shore and hung on a scale to show off. We've come a long way from there....
Aaron |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | bn, that's what I'm talking about. I hear all the time "I got a 42 x 20"er" and such. That's not needed. I can see it on a special fish, but it's getting ridicules. For that matter I get a kick out of many of these same people beating their chest as if they were the 1st ones to catch that fish. Most 50's have been caught and released dozens of times throughout their lives.
Maybe I'm just turning into a jaded grump (aka Captain Bitterman), but I just chuckle at 1/2 the stuff I read and hear now days. |
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| 100% agreement with you Treats, I don't understand it, other that the fact that 50+ % of Muskie Anglers feel the need to build a reputation as a "Muskie Angler" statistically, as a whole we need to focus more energy on building the resource and educating average anglers and the occasional Muskie fishermen about the facts of what we could have if we let our ego's stay in the bedroom where they belong |
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Location: Illinois | BN
That is exactly what I was talking about. I read posts with a girth measurement for 38-42 inch fish. I once read a post that said the musky weighed 8 pounds. Why are we weighing fish that weigh 8 pounds? By the way, that was a pretty girthy fish you brought in Sunday. Congrats.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i always relate it to the waste size of a hottie ... now, a 26" - 29" girth is the size of a real-life human ... for a cute little hottie that is ... so, when you're girthing a fish, remember that when the numbers get big, the fish has to get big too!
Edited by jonnysled 9/26/2007 1:19 PM
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| I had a 28" girth back in high school...
ain't sayin what it is today |
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Location: Illinois | Just remember Sled, big girls need lovin' too... |
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Location: Stevens Point, Wi. | My girth is of world record proportions! But, I still refuse to measure. |
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Location: Madtown, WI | I got a 34 X 15, had a left pectoral fin clip, was missing its left second from center front tooth, slight skew overbite, one less pore on its left jaw then right, 4 more bars 3 inches from its right side of the tail then the left. Largest bar was 7 inches long by 1.2 inches wide.
I had it out of the water 326 minutes...but she swam off nicely.
cory |
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Location: Bemidji | I am starting to do tail girths. That's the girth before the tail starts to fork. It will be a new trend, wait and see. |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Kevin,
Good call. I've been measuring the spread from tip to tip on tails for years. The fish up your way seem to have some of the biggest spreads of any fish of comparable length. I've never understood why some people will tail pinch their fish when measuring. How do you know what kind of spread it has?
Aaron |
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| I've never girthed a fish. My largest is a 47 inch fish from Canada that wasn't girthed. Last week I caught a 32" fish that was measured in the water and released without a photo or anything. I usually use a homemade bump board, but I kind of liked the water measuring. It was quick and easy, and much better for the fish. I may do that from now on. A friend of mine said they girth everything in Wisconsin......even summer sausage.  |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | If it is not a personal best when measuring in the water, there is no need to measure anything else or to even take it out of the water! |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Here is my take on the issue.
Overdocumentation? Yup... I think people are too caught up with the numbers these days. And at times, it may be putting some undue stress on the fish. Is it a problem or epidemic? I doubt it.... but there are always exceptions to the rule.
In my opinion, girth measurements became "popular" with the near record setting fish being caught in MN. With C&R the norm.... noone wanted to bonk a fish hoping it was the new state record only to find out they were a pound or two light. Thus, the greater importance of girth measurements and "the formula". Again, just my opinion.
EGO. Absolutely ego is a factor. We all know that a 50 incher can weigh as little as 25 pounds or exceed that glorious 40# mark. So... for some.... they need a way to say "My 50 is better than your 50".... and viola... the girth measurement increased in popularity. Personally, I'd rather be more descriptive and say I caught a freakishly fat 50.... or I caught a sickly skinny 50.... rather than use a stale and clinical sounding 50x20 report. And rather than take the time for a girth measurement... I'd rather click another picture or two to preserve the moment and better show off the fish than just a rubber stamped length x girth documentation. |
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| I've girthed exactly one fish, and that wasn't my fish, it was Eric's. I don't even register fish in the two clubs I'm in anymore. Last year I submitted several fish to the C&R club, one being my first 50. While the plaque I got for that fish was very nice, registering fish is just not that important to me anymore. It's not like I'm competing with anyone. I do take a pic or two of most fish, especially those caught by people I bring in my boat.
And unless I get that huge fish, I don't see myself girthing many in the future, either. A fat fish is a fat fish. That's a lot more accurate than saying a fish has a girth of 24 or whatever. I'd submit that a lot of these 24+ girths are over exaggerated anyway. 24+" is a pretty big fish, and some of the pics don't support the girth reported.
Edited by Shep 9/27/2007 8:07 AM
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Location: Minnetonka | Hahaha... Painter... I like it... keeping it light... not TOO serious.
I think I'll just continue to be grateful to whatever finds the Beckmann... even on POND.
1) cast
2) retrieve
3) hook set
4) battle
5) scoop
6) surgery
7) photo
8) measure
I've got 7 things to execute before I even think about how big she is!
Edited by Hammskie 9/27/2007 12:47 PM
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Location: Rhinelander. | I agree with you guys that wonder why anyone would girth a 38 inch fish. In Fact I wonder why why most anglers measure a fish like that if not in a tournament. Awhile back I put on a post about anglers that a picture of every muskie they catch. I wonder why they do this. When did it stop being enough that you know you caught a nice a fish and fun doing it. As musky anglers has our egos gotten so big that we need pictures of a 34 or 38 inch fish to feed that ego. We all talk about how to handle and release fish. We get on tournaments that transport fish. Then you turn around and hold a small fish out of the water and at times in a vertical hold for a photo. Whats wrong with this?
I would love to see fewer photos of small fish in musky hunter and on websites unless that fish has a special meaning as someones first fish or something else meaningfull. How many photos of small fish do you need to see? Keep them in the net,unhook and get a photo of yourself letting it go,that should be plenty.
Pfeiff |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I alomst never measure a fish anymore, as the video this summer should indicate. If she's a personal best candidate or a pig, yup, she gets the tape. Girth will only be measured in the water, in the net if it's important to the person who caught the fish.
As far as photos, come on, when we get to the point where us elitists think we can dictate when an image of a fish is important to SOMEONE else, we need to push the chair back a bit, I think. |
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| Don,
I have a photo album that I keep, with pictures of various fish I've caught that goes back to my childhood. I do and will continue to photograph fish whether they are small or large, because when I look back through those pictures, I remember catching those fish. I remember the day, I remember the lure I was using, and I get to kind of "re-live" that moment. Without a picture, I may know I caught a nice fish and had a good time doing it, but as the years go by the memories fade into oblivion. They stick when you have a picture to go with them. |
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| I agree EA, now I'm at the point with a few hundred fish I don't care to take pics of the sub 38's or so...but can fully understand anyone who wants to take a pic of a smaller fish for whatever reason and guys should understand that a 35 to them might not be that big of a deal but to another guy it could be his fish of the year!
as long as the fish is handled properly take all the pics you want fella's...they are memories to keep for a lifetime...
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Location: Hayward, WI | I have probably only read about half of these replies, so what I'm saying might have been said already. Anyway, I look at girthing a fish the same as scoring a trophy buck. It just gives you a little bigger picture to the true size of the deer or fish. Just like a 50 inch musky weighing 20 or 40 pounds, a 10 point buck can score 80 inches or 200 inches. It just give a better measure. Some people don't score deer, some people don't girth fish. I don't see a problem with it either way. I like to score big bucks. I have never girthed a fish, and don't even carry a soft tape in the boat to do it.
But, I should, because if I caught a really fat mid 40's or up, I would be interested to girth it. Am I going to girth 30 and 40 inch fish? Not a chance unless I catch a 42 that looks like it has a serious eating disorder.
As far as hurting the fish, if the guy does it with a soft tape while the fish is in the water, and doesn't spend more than a few seconds doing it I see no problem with it.
curleytail |
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I don't think expressing the opinion that photos and measuring etc. can be taken to far by some people is "dictating" anything.
Nobody is trying to pass a law saying you can't photo fish.
I see nothing wrong with people having the opinion that less handling is better, and it's really getting old to have people jump on you with the "elitist" label just for expressing an opinion that may be different than yours.
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'As far as photos, come on, when we get to the point where us elitists think we can dictate when an image of a fish is important to SOMEONE else, we need to push the chair back a bit, I think.'
I said 'us elitists' including myself. If you or anyone else doesn't think that category applies, obviously I wasn't talking about you. If anyone jumps to the conclusion I meant you personally, then that old Carlee Simon song might apply....(joking, John, joking)
And I stand by the concept that I think those who do not want to shoot photos shouldn't, and that's just fine. I also think that telling anyone that taking a picture of a 35, or a 38, is 'unecessary' might just be presuming alot.
Witness this statement:
'If it is not a personal best when measuring in the water, there is no need to measure anything else or to even take it out of the water!'
I disagree with that sort of blanket statement. May be 'no need' for him, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others who are developing their Muskie angling skills as we speak. And, if my wife catches a 38, I'm taking a picture. If I get a 48ish Muskie, SOMEONE is taking a picture, even though it's far from my PB. No, I won't girth it which is totally harmless if done correctly in the net, but that's me. Someone else might value that information, and all should be aware of proper handling techniques to get that done. |
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Location: The desert | I like to take pic's of all the fish I catch, even the ones that are dinks. Why? Because I do, I enjoy the memories that come along with the picture. I can look at a picture and remember who I was with, what I was doing, how I caught it, etc. Although recently I havent gotten pics of some of the fish I caught because they took off from me before the camera was ready or I didnt have anyone to take a picture. But just knowing that I caught them is enough for me. |
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Location: Racine, Wi | sworrall - 9/28/2007 12:26 PM
If anyone jumps to the conclusion I meant you personally, then that old Carlee Simon song might apply....(joking, John, joking)
You're a bad man Mr Worrall. I can't get that stupid song out of my head now!!! |
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Location: Nebraska | I've girthed exactly one and it was my personal best a week ago. I won't girth another until I break that personal best. At some time I am going to get a replica made. I haven't set a firm minimum size, so whenever I decide to do it, I will have the numbers, even after the fact. |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | Mr Sworral
Before you make a blanket statement maybe you should understand where I am coming from.
I do not fish a lot, I fish alone often, I am not a guide, and I am satisfied with my approach as to picture taking. I stand by my statement of not even taking the fish out of the water if it is not a personal best. I feel that is the safest and most fish friendly procedure.
If it is a personal best or someones first muskie, or a kids fish, than by all means a picture should be taken. Other than that, I take a picture of the release and of other happenings of the day for remembering later.
I guess I am just not into the ego thing of taking a picture of every fish. I enjoy fishing, but I don't let it rule my world.
It's like Posting something on this forum, it seems like everything has to be explained or it will be chewed apart by someone that reads more into it then what it is.
Heres hoping the rest of your year chasing muskies is successfull.
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Point taken Steve, it just seems that so many out there are quick to get defensive, and attack those who say things they don't agree with, or don't want to hear with the "elitist" (used in a condenscending way) tag.
john |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ESOXER,
You posted that as a personal belief, I got that right away; but it was written and reads as somewhat of 'this is how everyone should behave'. I happen to disagree, for the reasons I posted. That's what good discussions are all about, differing points of view. I'm not saying it's wrong for you, I'm saying that taking a photo of any fish anyone wishes to if good c/P-AS-IN-PHOTO/r techniques are used is just fine in my book and should not be considered 'wrong'; heck, it's part of the cornerstone of the hard work so many have done to encourage cpr in the first place.
By the way, the name is Steve Worrall, this sworrall confusion is a bit weird. I've been thinking about changing my board name to clarify, but what the heck, I've been sworrall since we opened MuskieFIRST.
The Lax contest would be pretty thin if all that were photographed were PBs. So would the weekend reports, and my personal at home image album.
John, agreed, I was speaking to a different perspective of the word. I am far from defensive; I wished to offer a more realistic point of view for the average guy. I think it's important to know that the userbase here is made up of everyone from the best of the best to folks without a fish in the Frabill. I will 'gently disagree' with statements and edicts that I feel will alienate any of that audience, or give them the perspective that this sport is absolutely no fun or is, here's that word again, leaning to the elitist. ( like me?) |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | Mr Worral,
I understand your position, I guess I should have explained my position more clearly when I posted that statement. It was not meant to be a rule for everyone. Just a method I prefer to use, especially when fishing alone.
No intent to ruffle any feathers, yours or anyones. I enjoy seeing people with their fish, but after seeing some of the same people with their upper 30 to mid 40 inch fish I begin to wonder why.
Now lets get back on the water, times a'wastin! |
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Location: NW WI | IMO...you can lay the bulk of the blame on the popularity of the internet, and all of the (as I call them) "internet experts" that have been created (in their own minds) as a result of the internet explosion.
The other day I was researching new washing machines, and I came across this site that had forums that sounded just like most fishing or hunting sites. Instead of saying the word "Whirlpool", insert "musky", or "deer" and it all read the same. It was hilarious. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | When a question is asked and an answer offered, it usually is in the spirit of community that's developed here over the years. Name calling, or any equivalent thereof, squelches that conversation and cuts the flow of information.
Anglers were girthing fish and taking pictures long before the Internet was around. I see the Internet as just another way to learn about your favorite activities. When you have a community as large as this one interacting, and one is behind a monitor and not speaking directly, it's easy to over emphasize or mis-speak.
We all have our own perspective, and as a famous Jedi Knight once said, each persons 'reality' is based upon their individual perceptions. The idea of sharing this sort of debate in my mind is to offer different perspectives so we experience as many 'realities' as is possible. |
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Location: Rhinelander. | Gee guys, I was trying to make a point here. We are all so gung ho on how to handle a fish. Some say a 10 second rule should be used. I was trying to say that if the well being of the fish is really the top consideration that maybe we should not be getting a photo of everyone taken. I just don't see why its that important. As I said a fish that may have a special meaning you should get a picture of. Its just that we preach catch and release and I think that to handle every fish for a photo only means the fish is out of the water longer. Elitist you have to be kidding! Dictate what should be done, no I did not do that either. I simply tried to encourage anglers to be be more selective on how many pictures they take. This translates to less they will have to handle a fish. I think the less you handle them the bettter. If I am mistaken on that I've sure ben mislead over the years.
Pfeiff |
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Location: ohio | well, it seems to me i catch my biggest fish when i forget the camera. Go figure.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Don,
Relax, read my explanation of the word again, please.
An image can be taken no problem within the 10 second rule.
Don't take pictures if you don't want to.
Don't take girth measures if you don't want to.
Just don't tell me I am 'harming' a fish unhooking it in the net, hoisting it for a few seconds, and placing it carefully back in the water. I'm not. No, I don't take pictures of every one, that's my choice.
Fish with no hooks; whatever suits, but I think it's over the top to tell folks to take the P out of CPR. It took us old guys far too long to get CPR in place to have the part of that conservation ethic that provides lots of memories and whatever bragging rights a person desires removed with no real biologically based reasoning. What, it's oK for a 53" fish to be out of the water long enough for a few shots and 'harmful' for a 41?? Come on, let's try to stay real here; if it WAS so horrible to handle the fish right and get an image right, CPR wouldn't be working. It is, in my very humble opinion. If taking a picture killed the fish, Mille Lacs would be a sea of floating 40" to 55" dead muskies in July.
That said, arguing that no photo and no taking the fish out of the water at all is better for the fish is probably true, but is it NECESSARY for the survival of released fish? Wouldn't there still be angler caused mortality? It's also arguable that not fishing for Muskies at all would be ultimately WAY better for the fish..... |
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Location: Minnetonka | We try to photograph all of them so the catch date, time and weather can be easily recalled when entering info to the muskie log... and because most of our fish are MONSTERS... haha!
Nice call Steve... muskie fishing sometimes involves harm. In personal experience, the damage is done the second she eats your bait and you set the hook. Then it's all about how well you know your tools. We work faster with our hook-outs and cutters so that we get more time for a photograph.
P.S. They're not humans.
Edited by Hammskie 10/1/2007 8:47 AM
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I think it all goes back to the experience of the fisherman. Typically fisherman who do take pics of every fish and who take girth measurements of smaller fish I would guess are pretty new to the sport. In theory these people would not have the experience of C&Ring and handling these fish and would therefore have a higher likelihood of mishandling. I can't count how many times I've seen new people dropping fish in the bottom of the boat, pulling them backwards in the water or dropping the net in the boat while working on the fish. Compound that with extra pics and measurements and we're looking at a higher likelihood of mortality.
A lot of time we (the experienced muskie community) take it for granted that everyone has the same skill, knowledge and experience in fish handling that we do. The truth is that most people don't handle many fish in a given year. The results of the MN survey showed that the average non-MI angler catches around 3 fish a year and the average MI angler catches around 5.
At the end of the day they are "just a fish" though... |
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Location: Rhinelander. | Steve,
Again some of you take this as if I am talking to you directly. I am saying in general, this means in some cases. In the musky fishing world we try to put back every fish as safe and as in good a condition as one possably can. My point was this and remains the same. The more pictures that we take of fish the more likely someone is going to have one out of the water too long. I have caught my share of muskies and I feel confident in saying that few fish that appear in in a photo are back in the lake in 10 seconds. I think many of you would like to think that but know better. Yes for very experienced anglers it may be so but for the majority of anglers it is not so.My question still remains the same. Why does anyone need pictures of every musky they catch? This practice only promotes additional handling of the fish. The practice of taking the picture insures that fish will be out of the water longer. There is no way anyone can argue that point.
Was I ever guilty of this practice someone is asking at this moment. Yes I am. I use to take many photos. For about the first 3 years I fished muskies. I now still take an occasional photo but rarely.
People are upset that some musky tournaments transport fish for fear a fish may die. Many oppose sucker rigs for fear a fish will be killed. Some anglers promote barbless hooks for fear of hurting a fish. These arguements are accepted by many muskie anglers and spoken against. Here I mention something that is way more popular practice and somehow I become the bad guy. I don't think I have to elaborate more on it and I think the real answer for all the pictures taken was mentioned by someone else. I simply put out a question to make anglers think about what they are doing and to help promote a safer,faster and healthier release of the fish.
One other thing steve, I too am an old fart and did much over the years in my seminars to promote cpr. You of all people should know that.
Pfeiff
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You know that song, right Don? |
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Location: Rhinelander. | Yes!!!!! as well you do................Pfeiff |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Let me get this straight, you guys are saying newbies shouldn't handle a fish for an image until they learn how...how would they learn, osmosis? Gotta learn somehow. Best we can do is give as much positive information on what tools to have onboard, etc, encourage quick release, and let' em get as 'seasoned' as some of us here as qucikly as is possible.
Sign up for Angler's Legacy and take a newbie fishing. Show them how, and shorten the CPR educational curve. |
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| I would put it in a much different way Steve.
"Newbies" should be allowed to make all the "mistakes" that I made, and others did on the way to learning the ins and outs of CPR.
My problem is with the guys that have caught hundreds of fish, that still feel the need to measure and photo every fish they catch. They have to bring every fish into the boat to measure them to the nearest 1/4" on a bump board, take several photos etc.
These guys are catching many more fish than the "newbies", and potentially having more of a negative affect on the fishery.
I also really think it's just setting a bad example to the "newbies".
My $.02
JS
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | As long as PROPER CPR techniques are used, I personally don't think it's a problem. That said, if there isn't any real use for an image, I would personally let'er go right from the Frabill and get a good release shot. Usually, I try to get an imgae or video clip ove fish in the mid 40's up, but that's me these days.
Don, we are both on the same frequency, just the 'volume' is different. Wanna go to Pelican and spank some big 'eyes in a couple weeks? |
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| I do! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Soon as the water cools down, Shepster. WAY too warm right now. We need temps in the low 50's or lower for the magic to start. Only 129 miles to the hideout from your place. |
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Overdocumentation?