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Location: Contrarian Island | has anyone noticed the plastic on the dawgs these days is getting softer and softer to the point you can fish with one for a day or 2 and without even one hit by a fish the bait is falling apart? coming apart on the bottom, splitting where the hook hangers are....also, the lead busting out the head...
Now I have no problem paying 16 bucks for a bait that after a few fish on it might be trashed but it's getting ridiculous how soft they are being made and I have heard this same gripe from about everyone I know that throws dawgs...I also heard they can put in a little substance at a cost of something like an extra 5 cents per bait to 'harden' them up more like the old dawgs...my old dawgs don't split and come apart why do the new ones? I'd like to get more feedback and maybe Musky Inn. will take notice and change things...until they do I am looking into other alternatives for solf plastics.
Love the dawgs just don't love having a $16 bait or $30 in the case of pounders falling apart with zero fish on them....
thoughts/opinions?
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | I agree. Just last night I spend 15 minutes TRYING to repair a shallow mag dawg that i have thrown a total of 3 hours, no fish...and the head is trashed.
Not sure what the driver is....the need for the softer plastic for the new producers of the dawgs or what...
But it DOES suck paying that kind of money for a bait to fall apart before its time.
I think the major problem on the shallow dawgs was a poor design on the lead head. They need a larger, flatter surface area to prevent the head from pulling through the bait.
Cory |
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| Yep...in today's day and age, it is frustrating to spend $8.00 for a bait, let alone $16.00 to have to repair or replace them the first day or two. I understand that we are fishing toothy critters with plastics...but maybe some kind of hardening agent wouldn't be so bad!! |
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| I'd like to get more feedback and maybe Musky Inn. will take notice and change things...
the best to be sure that they "take notice" is to write or call them directly.
i'd bet that Brad Ruh will spend some time talking to you about it and explain the changes to the material.
my understanding is that it is in response to customer complaints that the lures weren't soft enough and lacked the action of the original hand-poured baits.
he'll be forever chasing his tail on that one: too hard? too soft?
Musky Innovations/Brad Ruh
Phone: (920) 565-7631
email: [email protected]
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Posts: 295
Location: mad chain | Yep I agree, one trip this summer I had 2 pounders fall apart in one day, one didn't have 10 mins. of casting on it, same problem with the belly. I have also noticed some problems with hooks and split rings, one dawg i bought had 2 style hooks on it. I'm also looking into other rubber baits. |
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| I have a pounder that i used for a good 8-10 hours, and now it is unusable. I have the same problem, its split beneath the front hook hanger, and my bulldawgs brains(lead head) fall out. Something like this should not happen to a $30 bait. Even though this bait caught 2 smaller fish, the problem was not caused by the fish. I have tried melting it with little success. Im going to give this bait one more shot with some tire glue, but if that doesnt work, im not sure i can justify $30 for another bait. I too will be look for alternative plastics. |
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Posts: 427
Location: Wausau | This is an interesting topic and would be great if changes were made to the dawgs.
BN, are you going to copy the thread and send to Musky Innovations?
My main issues are:
1. Lead Head - pulling weight through the nose.
2. Belly Buster - bottom splits right down the middle from hook to hook to eye.
3. Half Tail - tail becomes hooked and with a rip it's now a half tail.
If a fish is the cause, I'm fine with that. But simply ripping it through the water - come on!
Most other products have a manufactures warrenty. I know what Jim would say at R&H's if I tried to return one.
What do you do? Melt them back together, only to have it happen again and again?
I too am looking at alternatives and buying less dawgs!
I hope someone from Musky Innovations is taking notice...
I have fun creating frankin'dwags by using the better parts of old dawgs - so if anyone wants to sell at a very resonable price, I'd be interested in your old ones.
PM me.
Edited by agrimm 8/27/2007 11:17 AM
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | Brad I agree. I have a bucket full of dawgs that have white plastic melted on the nose to get at least a little more use out of. Some have fish, others don't, but the newer ones definitley have less use to get the lead to pop through. I picked up a curly sue in the mag dawg size so we'll see how that works. Haven't really had a chance to use that one yet, but if the huge curly sue says anything, it should hold up well to fish chewing it up. 
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I would agree that for a time the rubber was too hard, but that was when M.I. went to the injection molded design. My gripe at that time wasn’t how hard the rubber was, but hated the tail design as it coiled up the way it was formed at the apex of a rip. Now it appears the rubber is either too soft, or the amount of rubber between the lead head and the outside of the nose changed. The rubber either needs to get a bit harder, or they need to add more rubber to the head. The rubber is just too thin at the head.
Splitting bellies is easy enough to fix. However, when that lead head pulls out of the head it is very difficult to fix. I usually end up melting a bunch of rubber onto the nose. M.I. can easily add a little more rubber hardener into the mix to get the baits to last a bit longer. That is a much simpler fix than modifying the mold to increase the amount of rubber between the lead head and the outside of the head.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm sure at some time the bait-maker is going to read this, so if and when you do .... contact me .... jon solberg at 715.493.7848 or email or pm me through the site. i'm curious to know your struggles working in china and might be able to share some similar situations and how we managed through them. as many of you know i spend a lot of time in china ... in-fact i've been there already 3.5 months of days this year already and am ready to head back again in mid-september which won't be my last trip.
it's a common theme in china relating to product quality and reliability over the long haul and doesn't apply just to bulldawgs but doing business over there in general. we've got plenty of experience and have put a huge investment in time on the ground over there and it's still extremely difficult to maintain a stable product ... our investment has been huge and not without a lot of stress. if you don't own the operations of the company/companies you are working with you are screwed without constant on-site monitoring ... if you are not working directly with the owner of the company but ratehr with an agent or forwarder you are screwed ... no ifs ands or butts about it.
the answer to everything is "no problem" ...
what we've learned .... 1. should you do business in china =yes, 2. should you be careful how and who you do business with in china = yes ...
i'm sure there will be people hitting me hard here for doing business in china and if you want to bash please shoot me a pm and i'll answer there. there are reasons for china's growth and many have to do with things that people have been blind to here ... trust me, i'd rather be working in louisianna making the products i make, but blinders from our industry basically paved the way to china by our industry ... we can get more into that later.
i am interested in understanding more about the bulldawg thing and think it's pretty common, maybe there's a way for one person to help another one out here ... who knows.
the first thing that happens especially with plastics in china is that recycled materials become part of otherwise good front-end products, then component formulations and additives that are more expensive change and before you know it you are so far away from what you started with that you have to start all over ... and have spoken with about 100 other people making everything from lamps to bed mattresses who have the same stories ... and that's why we all continue to fly the 18,000 miles one-way over there each month.
at the end of the day though, with the chinese ... it's not that they are trying to do wrong ... they are merely doing what they would do for themselves which is very different that what the rest of the world would do ... it wasn't very long ago that china was a stark contrast to what it is now .... or perceived to be becoming to the rest of the world.
i remember saying about 4 years ago when i posed the questions i put up here to our customers ... anyone with a phone and a notepad can do business in china ... it's not a matter of whether or not something bad is going to happen, but when ...
final comments ... we grieved the loss of 6 miners and 3 rescuers at the same time that 172 miners were flooded and died in a mine in china ... over 4700 chinese miners lost their lives last year in china ... i remember reading about infants dying in china because they were using recycled dvd's to make baby bottles and recently (my last trip in july) they were found to be using waste cardboard as minced meat in food products ... the wealthiest person in china brings garbage from the u.s. to china and recycles it back into the products they export back to us ... so, if you aren't there to run your business, you will have a product made by the chinese in the way they would make it for themselves which is very different than your expectations.
it's an ancient world with a very different paradigm ... they don't know the concept of want and live with simple needs being met ... ever wonder why they eat what they eat? ...
by looking at a bulldawg on sunday that made it's first trip out on the boat ... with it's entire belly split open, and the weight coming out the nose i could have written their memoirs for their last year and probably not been too far off ... but then i'm a chemical engineer in the plastics industry who makes products in china over the past 4 years, so what do i know .....
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Location: Contrarian Island | Yes, I will copy the thread to Brad and M.I. and see if there is a way they can make changes going forward.
Good replies.... |
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| The new dawgs are made without any hardener. The hardener would cost only a few cents more in the production cost which would make the dawgs very durable. This creates a problem... With dawgs being more durable the consumer would not buy as many in a season. Thus the sales would go down. It is actually a smart way to sell more baits but at the same time this will make the consumer upset that they have to purchase 30 dawgs a year instead of 5. It makes sense from a business standpoint.
There is not a noticeable difference in action between the two. That has nothing to do with it.
I have seen Pounders destroyed after catching one fish and that is disappointing. No one should spend $30 on a bait and have it ruined by one fish.
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| a tale of two baits:
roughly same amount of casts on each of these...not many for either.
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Location: Contrarian Island | Kevin I don't know if it makes that much good business sense to make a bait that falls apart after a few hours of use....yes, you are going to inevitably sell more baits but imo are going to get the consumer ticked off you don't build something that lasts (when you can)....M.I. has had a virtual monopoly on the soft plastic market...until now.....Andy from Shack Attack will now be getting my money and I will not buy another dawg until changes are made, if any are made.....that can't be good business sense?
I'm not the only one not buying dawgs any longer either....
Edited by MSKY HNR 8/27/2007 11:46 AM
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Posts: 2378
| I've had a few dawgs with problems...
Weights pulling out the heads and tails busting off are the main problems. Most of this occurs without even catching a fish. Just ripping them can destroy them.
That said, I do have a big Suzy Sucker that the weight started pulling through the front. A nasty backlash will do that...  |
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | I have yet to catch a fish on a dawg, yet alone i have 4 sitting at home that are complete wrecks. I've seen more fish on suzy suckers anyways. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | good point ... "the hardener would cost only a few cents more in the prodution costs which would make the dawgs very durable" ... something has happened over the last year in china that has put the pressure on cost-savings for anyone doing business there ... first, remember that as a nation the message to the people still comes from a top-down communist position so they've been trained by the rest of the world on a couple simple concepts ... 1. they are the factory for the world and 2. it's because the world wants "cheap" ... what's missing is the word "value" so as a mindset and fundamental behavior cheap is king without a great deal of education and re-training for what the concept of "value" actually means. the guys doing well and building products with "value" own and operate the factories with chinese operations and labor. the factories making for others are owned by chinese, managed by chinese and made by chinese under the "cheap" paradigm.
it's likely that the pricepoint from the u.s. has been pressured to stay constant ... i would think this to be the case, but not sure as i don't own the bulldawg brand ... but it's the same for all of us over there ... now, here's what the chinese have faced while keeping the price constant ...
1. currency devaluation from 7.86 to about 7.5 or about a 4 or 5% currency hit
2. container freight, customs and tariff have raised about a thousand bucks for a 40 foot container
3. 2% vat came away from the chinese manufacturers that was part of their margins
4. raw materials have had a real increase in the past two years in asia for plastics (at least for mine) of around 6-7%
so, if the buyer is continuing to squeeze cost maintaining while trying to maintain his same margins, then the guy he's squeezing is going to try to soften (bad pun) the blow by taking some cost out of the product to keep it "cheap" ...
the cost of doing business in china has increased over the past year. if you can't pass through the cost-increase from the effect on the vat credits, currency and freight cost and force the supplier to eat it then you basically get what you get.
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Posts: 156
Location: Oconomowoc, WI | I've personally trashed 12 bulldawgs since mid July and have caught a total of 5 muskies on them. 3 on one of them. Add me to the list, I WILL NOT purchase another bulldawg until the problem is fixed.
This will be an interesting transition though... Can you hear it now? "the old bulldawgs are best!, Wait, no, not those old ones, the really old ones, of course these new ones are good also, these are the brand new ones, right???" I have old bulldawgs for sale, the good ones, not the bad ones." "Closeout sale on the new old bulldawgs" |
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| Right there with you guys on this one. Many trashed dawgs just from casting them. The ones that have caught fish have been one-fish baits for the most part. I've got some older dawgs with as many as 8 or 9 fish on one bait. Little melting to maintain integrity and they still catch fish. I've got many more to ruin before buying any more though.  |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | What will be interesting to see is if the Shack attack line falls to the same scrutiny that M.I. has recently. Will the Suzies be made more cheaply in the next few years as the "squeeze" to make money happens?
A lot of newer products start out with high quality only to slip after a couple of years. This happens in any industry.
I am also one that will be looking into the Suzies.
I will admit, the one lure that hasn't gotten worse over time, but actually better is the Live Action Lures! |
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| Brad, I agree. You will sell more baits but at the same time create problems with the customers that buy them.
KC |
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Posts: 1086
| I agree with the issues at hand with the bulldawgs as well.
If M.I. is going to consider, yet, another generation of modifications to help improve their bait...why not have some sort of hard plastic shell incorporated into the design of the head of these baits as to prevent the tearing through issues? Not sure how to exactly articulate my thinking/idea here...but..basically...the head area, leading back to maybe only the first third of the body, maybe only back to the dorsal fin, is a hard shell that wraps around the soft plastic? I don't mean for it to be a solid hard body that far back, like what a Deep Invader or a Shallow invader is with a tail attached to is...since those have their issues as well over time....I dunno..maybe I'm thinking of making it too difficult and too costly? Or maybe does the bulldawg need to go to a hybrid type of bait which is hard plastic up front with the soft tail trailing?
I realize and agree that the reason a lot of the fish hold on to these soft baits is due to the fact that there isn't the hard body incorporated.
Something to think about? |
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| why dont they just make the body hard plastic and make a relaceable softplastic tail. it would be just like a normall dawg but a lot more durable. it would be kinda like a squirelly jake or shallow invader. id buy em. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I got a reply from Brad at M.I. and he said they are currently looking at making some changes to the plastic....maybe he will drop in and fill us in some more.... |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | That's good to hear Brad. It's great that he is taking notice to growing concerns of many who use the Bulldawgs. |
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Posts: 227
Location: Southeast Wisconsin | Normally Im not into bashing products (mainly because theres not enough time in the day...kidding,kidding) But the recent quality of Bulldawgs has me disturbed as it does allot of other people. First and foremost Brad Ruh is one of the nicest guys I know.My problems with MI has nothing to do with Brad personally, but he does need to make some changes in the product.
Q:Why are the BDs so soft? A:Beacause they got a large order of plastic that wasnt mixed correctly and was too soft. Thats what it was. If you buy BDs on a consistent basis you will notice the slight change in hardness,two split rings and larger hooks on the newer dawgs. If you use all white all black or walleye allot youll get a "new" one sooner than later. While they are a little harder, I have to report that they are of the same poor quality. I have a st croix extra heavy 8'6 and I like to rip my dawgs...I can pull the lead out in less than 4 hours if i fishem how I want to. As far as Ive found there isnt a way to stop or repair that fully.
As for the splitting on the bottom. Dont stick the hooks into the dawg. They only tangle constantly if you cast them wrong. "set down" the dawg instead of letting it fall on itself after the cast. Retrieve instantly and than countdown if you wish.
IMO-The newest and most increidable thing to happen in the soft plastic market is replacement tails made by shack attack (THANK YOU SO SO MUCH!!!) I personally rehabed 17 BDs in the last week. The BDs that are too "cracked out" to be revived are melted down in the microwave and poured over the splits in the bottom of my dawgs. You can actually create some pretty cool colors if you melt different colors together. They aint the prettiest, but they work just as good as a brand new one..Rollies sells the tails for 7.99.They have multiple colors in med,large and x-large..You get 4 tails in the med/large and 3 in the extra large..Either that or you can just buy a new bulldawg..Not that its a big surprise, but someone at the shop told me that Brad didnt want tham to sell the tails.
What some folks dont know is that MIs products (Like many other of your favorite baits) are made by Reaction Strike. If you have any complaints you should send them directly to Rick Quade..heres his email [email protected]
The other thing you can do is return the defective BDs to wherever you bought them. If you havent caught a fish on a particular dawg that has become unusable, than said BD is technically defective and should be returned. Think about it..If you bought a new "anything" and it stopped working within a day or two, wouldnt you return it? This will get the message across. Been to smokeys lately?? I doubt youll find even a scarce supply of Dawgs there next year and most of the BD area now is stocked with every size/color of live action joes.. merchants are sick of hearing about defective BDs..
Who are all these "guys" that are saying the old dawgs arent soft enough? If Brad was making the pre-china dawgs still we wouldnt be having this conversation.As soon as Reaction Strike started making the BD is when the quality went to crap...Bottom line
I purchased a bunch of Suzy Suckers this year and now that I have confidence in them to produce I will be buying a whole lot more..I like the fact that they make the replacement tails for the curly sues.It shows that they stand behind there product(cant put much faith in any "tail" when theres 20" pike on the prowl)
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Posts: 79
Location: S.E. Wisconsin | What about the "custom dawgs" that R&H has or Thorne Bros. ,these are probably made in smaller batches right?? Is it possible these are not made over seas? |
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| Sounds like companies in a number of lines had better rethink the China thing. |
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| Add another person that has switched to Shack attack!! I love BD's,but after watching all my new pounders fall apartafter a couple of hours of fishing,with no fish!! I made the switch!
Reaction Strike does make M.I.s soft baits, I should have switched when I found that out as they have (IMO) aweful quality control! |
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| Not bashing anyone! But, I will go out of my way, and pay more money to buy products which are made here, and whose cash flow ends up here. However try as you may, sometimes it is impossible.
That said, I jumped on the BD wagon when they first came out, but set them aside. Now I am going dig those old buggers out and get reaquainted!
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Posts: 317
| Andy from Shak Attack stands behind his baits. Case in point: He recently subbed out some baits to China (Formula X line) and they were crap. He killed it within months and has gone back to hand pours which are much more durable and realistically colored. He is all about quality over mass production. his baits rock, and he genuinely cares about the quality, please support him. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I would agree with the above statements about Andy from Shack Attack...great guy who really wants to put out nothing but the best to us musky nuts...I'm hoping his new thru wire construction he has been working on will be "the real deal" and can't wait to get them WET!
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | just got back from the muskyshop and noticed that the suzysuckers have moved from their original location in the store and are now sit next to the bulldawgs on the wall. with the new big curly sues and the many colors of the regular paddle tails and then the replacements tails there i think the tide is already changing toward the better product. while i was there a customer was pondering both ... he asked for my help and walked out with curly sues ... it's easy to show the difference especially now. doesn't matter where something is produced if a manufacturer's efforts respect the customer needs and it seems that shack attack is doing plenty of that ... cool that they provide the replacement tails ... that alone speaks reams to their understanding of what customers want. |
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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | MSKY HNR - 8/28/2007 4:19 PM
I would agree with the above statements about Andy from Shack Attack...great guy who really wants to put out nothing but the best to us musky nuts...I'm hoping his new thru wire construction he has been working on will be "the real deal" and can't wait to get them WET!
Got an email from Andy the other day. In a nut shell, it was about his new thru wire construction and the tests he has been running on it. Definitely the real deal!
Aaron |
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Posts: 613
Location: big cove tannery pa | I have not had any problems with my bulldawgs faling apart,just a few rips and tears from muskie strikes.
Aso where would i be able too pick up a couple curly sues? There not on the Shack Attack site. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | you can get them at most of the major retailers including rollie and helen's, thorne bros., and pastika's, but for sure at www.muskytackleonline.com ... i was just over there shopping myself before stopping back in here ... |
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Posts: 114
Location: New London, Wisconsin | This is strictly my opinion but based on the recent developments with Musky Innovations (bad leaders or bad batch or snaps and now there recent problems with bulldawgs) have me steering clear of their products in the stores. They took the market by storm with the "dawgs" but it now seems that their growth and popularity have pushed them into the "greedy" catagory, namely, cheaper components + steady or higher prices = larger profits. It's too bad and not unique to MI but it is the reason I have been supporting the "little guys or basement bait makers" a lot more lately. I am getting a much higher quality bait, better price and the means to have the bait customized. Again this is just my opinion and view.
Good luck to all heading out over the long weekend!
Labs |
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Location: Contrarian Island | one of a few things will hopefully happen here...Musky fishermen will stop buying cheap products and the companies making them will take notice and change...or we will still keep buying crap and they will still keep making crap....or we will look for alternatives (Curly Sues) and will buy those and hopefully Andy never gets too big his products get made over seas with the quality going down like it has for some others... |
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Posts: 216
Location: Belleville, WI | I can't find the Curly Sues at muskytackleonline . . . these ARE different baits than the Suzy Suckers, right? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | drop Aaron an email at muskytackleonline and he'll hook you up when they come in...they are different than suzy suckers...suzy suckers have the paddle tail, curly sues have a tail like dawgs.... |
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Posts: 32955
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Since they support us all here at MuskieFIRST, I'd VERY STRONGLY suggest you call or email Smokey's Musky Shop. They have been a loyal MuskieFIRST partner for a couple years, and have donated a large amount of gear towards our contests and fund raisers. John will take very good care of you. If they don't have an item, they will get it for you.
http://www.smokeysmuskieshop.com/
That said, Musky Innovations is a good company and the owners are good people. this is an unfortunate spped bump for them; they will make this issue right. |
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| i just talked to Smokey's.
Smokey's has Shack Attack products on order (including Curly Sue's) and they are expected in the shop/online by next week.
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Posts: 227
Location: Southeast Wisconsin | John is an awesome guy!! If your in the milwaukee area check out Cutting Edge Outdoors on AM1250 saturday mornings from 6-8am.
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| What did Shark Attack do about all the form x baits sold at the shows. Did they back them up? |
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| Shack Attack is backing them up, although it's an entirely different issue and easily prevented by storing them separate from other plastics.
i stopped at the Sportsman this weekend and talked to the store owner about that very thing.
Shack Attack took back all the formula-x baits from the shelves, and has taken them back from customers who bring them in as well.
to contact them directly:
http://www.shackattacklures.com/
[email protected]
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | if a guy does business poorly (which it seems the makers of the bulldawgs are caught in right now) regardless of where he does the business, the rest of the people who are doing it the right way shouldn't fall victim to the same generalization and get sensationalized through the anti-china sale it sounds like smokey's is having.
there are a lot of engineers from penn and abu who work hard, spend lots of travel time (i've met many of them myself on trips over there) and investment over in china overseeing production and quality and also doing things there, but the right way ... along with about a zillion others that supply products and stand behind problems that might occur ... touching many products we all use and even more that are near and dear to you. those businesses investing in quality, taking up the challenge when things get tough shouldn't fall into the same [generalizations].
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Preaching to the choir here, Sled, but as I said; to each his own.
Outsourcing can hurt badly if one doesn't keep quality as the number one issue with the builder of whatever was outsourced, matters not where they are built. Ask the former OMC about that...US manufacturers are perfectly capable of building problem products too.
That being said, I don't care where something is built. I care about the quality of the item, and I do have a good grasp of what international markets mean to the overall health of our economy with products flowing both ways. the trade deficit is a little disturbing, but it is what it is, the US is one huge consuming behemoth.
Surprisingly, my Toyota Tundra is built in Texas with a majority, but not all, parts built in the US. I'd happily drive a totally Japanese built Toyota if the quality rivals what I have now, and I'm certain it does in the vehicles built there. |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Business owners take risks every day, be it a mfg of baits, retail, construction folks, whatever. Risks turn out great, and turn out bad, it's the nature of doing business.
All businesess make mistakes. They live and they learn, or fail miserabaly.
Do not discount any bait because they had a bad run. It happens in all types of baits. M.I. and Shack Attack both put out quality, fish catching baits.
So, you bought a bad bait. You got a bad one from your favorite maker. It happens. Do not swear off of "Brand XYZ", because your next bait may be your favorite. |
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Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN | Agreed with all problems already said. Nightmare, this thread is evidence that it's more than just a couple guys just got a "bad' bait.
The problem is there are so many already made we won't get any "new" versions for a while. Those dawgs with the two split rings, those were from the same batch that did not have the welded rear hook hanger and the rear hook could just fall off, I've seen it. That problem came about what, a year and a half ago? I bought one this year (unknowingly) of this version.
Shy away from the uptowns, they are definitely softer.
Edited by tfootstalker 8/29/2007 7:51 PM
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Posts: 576
Location: nappanee IN | ye ole in webster has curly sues and regular suze coming out of their ears! the big ones too..check 'em out |
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