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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Looking for statistics on delayed mortality from catching muskies in warm water. There is an individual that has listed a guide service (Ebay) on Webster Lake for trolling at night throughout the month of July. Water temps are already in the mid 80's on the main lake in upper 80's to 90 in the shallow water. Any help would be much appreciated.
Edited by Vince Weirick 6/18/2007 7:47 AM
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Posts: 128
Location: ontario canada - Well Anderson Indiana now | Just more info on this guy, I asked him if he only guides at night and he told me he could accomodate for anytime of the day, obviously regardless of temps!! So like Mr. Weirick said, we need to get this guy some statistics and documents to show the dangers of fishing in such extreme water temps because he doens't believe it to be true. We also need to provide him the info in a not so "elitist" way. |
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| Someone already questioned his ethics for fishing muskies in such temps. They posted his response on Hulbert's board. He feels totally justified in what he's doing and according to him DNR biologists in the area as well as some other in the know folks say that these scorching water temps have no effect on the survival of muskies. |
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Posts: 8865
| I gotta trust the biologists over anyone else whether I like what they have to say or not... |
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Location: Munster, IN | Like Matt said, some good posts on the topic at Mike's site.
You also might want to contact John Bette (muskihntr) from Stealth Tackle.
He has gathered some of his own information on the subject too.
It has been a hot topic (no pun intended) on The Next Bite site also.
Check their archives.
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This seems to be an issue where you need to pick your biologists.
In MN, Rod Ramsell, Bob Strand and Jerry Younk will all warn about fishing in water that hits the 80 degree range, especially if it's like that for an extended period of time.
All living things get stressed out when put into "extreme" conditions, people included.
Hooking and landing fish adds to the stress they go through.
Everybody has to make thier own choices, I'll quit fishing except for early morning when the water temps are approaching 80 during the day.
JS
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Just a question for Vince and others in Indiana/Illinois...Are you going to stop guiding/fishing until Fall? It sure is a short season which is a real bummer if you don't have the means to go North...How much will the water temps drop overnight?
I guess I'd like to see the research numbers...How do they gather data about warm water releases unless someone is catching and releasing in warm water?...What other factors are looked at(health of fish, proper handling and release)That said, I haven't fished for 2 weeks due to temps in the low 80s...I just looked at extended forecasts for the next 10 days...8 of those days are supposed to have 90 plus temps!!! and its not even July...Its just hard to think of not fishing again until September...I guess I'm just trying to find some wiggle room so I don't have to wait so long to get back on the water...Believe me, I don't want to do anything to jeopardize the already limited population in the lake I fish (lots are lost over the spillway) I guess i'll look at some of the other boards mentioned on this thread and in the meantime pray for some extended cooler weather 
matt |
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Posts: 3165
| Beg, Borrow, steal the article done by Rod Ramsell in ESOX ANGLER in I think 2005,,,the stress from a fish hooked in hot water and brought into the boat is equiv to someone running a 26 mile mile marathon in hot temps and has soon has they cross the finnish line exhausted someone takes their head and jams it underwater so they now cant breathe, |
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Location: Palm Coast, FL | muskyme...yes I am done guiding until the water temps cool back down. I just got off the phone with a guy that wants to go out...told him to give me a call in the middle of August to get an update.
happy hooker or anyone else...can you get me that article by Rod Ramsell? |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | OK...I found the article and sent the guy an email on ebay. Does anyone know who he is? Does he have a website? |
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| Vince, not to stir up trouble..ok maybe a little..didn't your Muskies Inc chapter just have a tournament down there this past weekend? Or am I mistaken???? |
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| Thanks Vince, hopefully he will listen as Mr. Skarie stated Jerry Younk is a great biologist and will answer your questions if you e-mail him, although it make take a week or so due to the fact he is in the field this time of year, keep up the good fight these fish cant do it themselves and someone is always trying to put themselves before the fish due to economical or egotistical measures.
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Here you go boys...
http://www.thenextbite.com/site/article.cfm?owner=84DD6C36-3048-725...
TB |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | That's a great article by the way, but he doesn't go too far into delayed mortality with warm water (and hence low dissolved oxygen levels) fishing. But there is some priceless information about the mechanics of supporting fish both vertically and horizontally. It really makes me glad I bought the Big Kahuna!
Here's a link to a paper I found while participating in the thread on Mike Hulbert's site earlier today--it helps to explain some potential mechanisms for the delayed mortality that may be associated with warm water fishing.
http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.157...
That's a real nice paper and really starts to point the finger in the direction of just why it's so bad to be fishing when the DO levels get down below that 1.5 mg/L mark...increased stress leads to increased susceptibility against pathogenic organisms, among other things. And there are several good comments posted on Mike's forum under the "New temps" thread, if anyone is interested.
TB |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | bn,
Our club had a cash tournament June 2nd. Last weekend we had an outing (which I did not participate in). It was a worth while cause and the proceeds from raffles and donations went to help find the murderer/s of 2 club members, Terry and Darlene Anderson. You can find more about them on our club's website...just click on their picture on the front page.
Vince |
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Posts: 9
| I'm new to Musky fishing, that was very good information for me, thanks for posting.
Fortunately I haven't caught a fish yet, so when I do I'll have a shot a doing it right the first time!
Thanks. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Here's another very nice paper published in a Canadian journal, by Dr. Casselman--a giant in the world of musky research.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/mnr/pubs/fishing/catch_and_release_review_...
It's free for the download and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the effects of CPR on fish; or how "delayed mortality" actually occurs.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 6/19/2007 11:44 AM
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| Thanks TB, that is a great article that I will put up on our FRV MI Club web site and I encourage other clubs to do the same!
Steve |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Glad you liked it... It's definitely a thorough review of the literature (from what I can tell) with multiple references on many different topics. I know it saved me several hours of Google time.
TB |
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Posts: 2361
| As it looks like warm water temps impact survivability of every other warm water fish, it would seem very likely that musky are also impacted. Of course some will require being hit between the eyes with a sledgehammer's worth of proof to accept that, which is a logical extrapolation of pre-existing studies. Especially if it has a leisure time impact or economic impact they don't want. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I agree with your point that other species are very likely affected, although it seems (from talking to some of my WiDNR musky biologist contacts) that muskies are more sensitive to the low DO levels. One biologist told me that Pike are far less susceptible to the effects of lower DO levels, and can handle 3-4 mg/L DO without difficulty. While he didn't know of any DO data specific to muskellunge, he implied that when the oxygen levels get too low the fish become inactive and don't even feed. Hearing that, I pushed him a bit on the issue--did he think that it was then safe to fish musky in warm water temps, if the fish that were metabolically threatened were *inactive* as sort of a defense mechanism? He wouldn't commit to that of course, lol.
The trouble with this debate is that there doesn't seem to be any ONE definitive answer on the matter. I am still researching the available references, but to this point have not run into anything specific in terms of muskellunge tolerance to DO levels and warm water--there are just too many variables. But suffice it to say that the fact that there are fish die-offs during the summer period is widely recognized. Injuries sustained during the spring spawning period predispose the fish to illness, and then when the water temps warm and pathogen levels increase over the summer...the weak succumb. Survival of the fittest is nature's plan, I suppose. But muskies aren't the only species to suffer this fate of course...
But my understanding of the mechanisms leading to the demise of these fish has grown by leaps & bounds in the last few days. Many of these processes are identical to those causing sickness and death in humans, if left untreated. And many of the bacteria causing disease in fish can also be found in human disease.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 6/22/2007 8:33 AM
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One thing we need to remeber when talking about warm waters is that we are adding stress to the catch ourselves.
Whether or not a fish can safely tolerate low dissolved oxygen levels isn't the only factor.
Catching a fish depletes the body of oxygen at a time when there is less oxygen available due to the warm water. It's a lot like one of us going up to the mountains and running, we aren't used to it, and it stresses our bodies out.
For anyone concerned about a healthy fishery, this is the time to go barbless, and not take any fish out of the water. Fish in the mornings and take the heat of the day off.
JS
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Location: Green Bay, WI | john skarie - 6/19/2007 10:30 PM
One thing we need to remeber when talking about warm waters is that we are adding stress to the catch ourselves.
Whether or not a fish can safely tolerate low dissolved oxygen levels isn't the only factor.
Catching a fish depletes the body of oxygen at a time when there is less oxygen available due to the warm water. It's a lot like one of us going up to the mountains and running, we aren't used to it, and it stresses our bodies out.
For anyone concerned about a healthy fishery, this is the time to go barbless, and not take any fish out of the water. Fish in the mornings and take the heat of the day off.
JS
John, I follow you...from a distance.
You say "whether or not a fish can tolerate low dissolved oxygen isn't the only factor" but then go on to in fact to make the point that it *is* the issue. If their body gets depleted of oxygen at a time when there is less oxygen available...where are they supposed to get more oxygen from? Dissolved oxygen. So really it is the main factor. What else has changed, compared to...say the fall when water temps are in the 50s?
From what I have read recently, pretty much everything bad that happens to these fish can be attributed to low DO levels in warm water. Less DO means increased stress hormone response, increased blood glucose, increased heart rate with a decreasing stroke volume = ischemia, lactic acidosis, increased cardiac arrhythmias and (tell them what they win if they survive all of that...) less tolerance to pathogenic organisms!
Obviously they are just as much at risk for angler-induced injury due to improper handling, gill injury, etc.; but that goes for any time of the year. But I do agree with you on one important point--barbless hooks. (It isn't that I disagreed with you on the above by the way; just that I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make.) But the point made about barbless hooks and the reference to only a 22% decrease in angler catch rate in that one study--that really isn't too bad, IMO. What about maybe leaving one barb per treble?
TB
Edited by tcbetka 6/19/2007 10:49 PM
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My point was the fish may be able to survive in warm water with low D/O levels on a day to day basis. We've all seen and caught fish in very shallow water when it's hot.
But when you add the stress of C&R, than that is where fish can be put in danger.
Some people think that because you can find muskies shallow in hot water that they won't have a problem after releasing them.
Being able to tolerate hot temps and low D/O levels is not the same as being able to recover in them after a stressful event.
JS |
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Posts: 3165
| Night fishing in hot weather???
some people think its safer???
or is it more harmfull??? at night wouldnt there be less oxygen because the sun isnt adding any photosyn to the water? |
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In regards to barbless hooks;
I've found that the only case in where my hooking/landing percentages go down much is with topwaters.
When fish get up on top, or do a lot of jumping then can come un-buttoned, but even then I can't be sure if the barbless hooks are that much less effective.
The key is a long rod that will absorb the shock of head-shakes, and constant, even pressure when fighting them.
I think a good hook-set is actually easier, the sharp, non-barbed hook penetrates very well.
Understandably, many are not comfortable going barbless, but after landing a few your confidence will go up, and with the ease of release, and also the ease of getting those hooks out of yourself (done that a couple of times), I think many of you would be sold on them.
JS |
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Hooker;
The waters ability to hold D/O is directly related to temperature.
Beyond that, I can't honestly say if night or day is better irregardless of temperature due to plant activity.
I think your best bet is to fish in the mornings if you've had a windy night. Wind will oxygenate water more than anything, as will rain.
Maybe someone else has a better handle on the effects of photosynthesis and D/O levels? Just how much a difference do plants make, and does it trump the ability of water to hold D/O better in lower temps?
JS |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Ah John...now I smell what you're cooking. I agree with you. The first reference I posted (the one about the Talapia) basically proves exactly what you are saying, in a certain way. They exposed the fish to DO levels of <1 mg/L for 24 hours and then injected 100 microliters of broth with Group B Strept. Mortality increased by 27% in the fish with only a small number of bacterial units (CFUs) while it increased by 80% (!!) with an higher amount of CFUs.
Although this isn't exactly in line with what you mentioned, it basically proves your point. There is a reference out there from 1980, where they actually studied angler-induced morbidity and mortality on muskellunge. But I haven't gotten my hands on it yet. I hope to have it today or tomorrow and will then have a look. But for the most part, I believe you are spot on target...
By the way--I don't think photosynthesis has as much to do with DO levels as does the water temperature. If the water is of a certain temperature, there's only a certain amount of oxygen solubility possible. I believe that you could bubble 100% oxygen through it all day long--once it's been saturated to it's oxygen carrying capacity, that's all it will hold. You'd have to have some way to supersaturate it to go higher than that. I do believe that aquatic plants would help *keep* the DO levels at the maximum carrying capacity for any given water temperature--or help to more quickly replenish DO levels when the water temp cools.
TB |
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Location: Minnesota | At the end of the day....Buy a good net and leave the fish in the water during stressfull times. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Amen to that.
Nice Grunts on the website, by the way. I will be needing to talk to you in another month or so...
TB |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | gosh we go through this every summer. yes it sux but we must put up with it. here in indiana everybody is going bonkers becouse of the water temps. there are many ways to look at it. we all have our views of it and know the consaquences. anyway who are we to say anything for a fisherman who has paid there fee for a liscense and has the right to fish. are we to go out and potrol the lakes and tell them to get off the water. i think not... all we can do is teach nicely then look away.. just my 2 cents....bill |
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Posts: 314
Location: Bristol, IN | That 48" I caught was @ 8:25 A.M. in 75 degree water. She was landed quickly and released promptly, too.
I do believe that some fisherpersons do not release them properly. There is a right way and a wrong way to revive/ release these fish.
#1 Wrong way is to push/ pull the fish...this equals DEATH.
#1 RIGHT way is to keep upright (like a surfaced submarine).
Thank you in advance,
Mike "MuskyTaleMike" Albright
R.V.P. Chapter #49
Edited by MuskyTaleMike 6/26/2007 2:51 PM
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| wow! there's some brains around this forum. I've yet to catch my first muskie but I pledge to be very careful always release and to educate myself right here as much as possible. thanks guys! |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | Amazingly -- we still see the pros on many of our DVD's pulling/pushing the fish in an effort to revive them. What's up with that ???
I agree with Musky Tale Mike -- this drowns the fish.
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Posts: 8865
| cjrich,
Ideally, water flowing over the gills through the mouth is the best way to reoxygenate a fish. Recent research suggests that the gills are far less efficient at absorbing oxygen through water flowing the opposite direction. If you push the fish forward, you have to pull it backwards to push it forward again. There is some speculation that water flowing backwards over the gills can damage the gill filaments, as well, so now the trend is to sway the fish from side to side...
Why do people still do it the other way? Because someone taught them long ago that that was the way to do it, and nobody has ever given them any reason to believe otherwise.
Is it something we need to worry about? Not in my opinion. As long as people are putting them back and making an attempt to put them back healthy, I see no cause for concern.
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Location: Oregon | "In all out-of-water handling options, the loss of the protective mucus layer that protects fish from waterborne bacterial and viral infection is an additional concern. This is especially true during the warmer water temperature months when the populations of these organisms are at their peak. So, if you really want to impress me with a photo of your catch, then minimize your handling and show me that fish in the water!"
Very well written article!!
The quote I posted above from the article is a major problem for salmonids in my part of the country. When you grab a fish by the caudal peduncle (narrow part of
the tail) which we all do, you inadvertently rub off all the protective slime. This isn't a problem in cold water temps but when the water is in the 80's it becomes a prime location for bacteria/infection to begin. In some years we see a high percentage of "pre-spawn mortality" on chinook and in nearly every case you can see where the problem started....right at the tail where the fish was grabbed. These fish die before spawning, not a good thing.
Before you grab a musky by the tail wet your hands and although a glove is nice for the fisherman it probably does more damage than good.....particularly if the water is warm.
This article makes a strong arguement for keeping the fish in the water at all times and really the pics if done correctly look as good or better in-water!!
Thanks for posting the article link.
Jed V.
Edited by RiverMan 6/22/2007 12:39 PM
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Location: Palm Coast, FL | I try not to even sway the fish from side to side. When you are holding onto the tail and moving the fish in any direction, you are rubbing off the protective barrier on the fish where you are holding it. A fish will breath (suck in water by opening/expanding it's gill plates) on its own. |
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Location: Bargersville, IN | Good point Vince. I once caught a 42" 6 days after releasing it. I know it was the same fish because it had a cut in its back from rolling in my line. Upon releasing it for the second time I noticed a palm size open wound on its tail from me holding on to it the first time. Lessons learned, 1 don't handle 'em with dry hands and 2 don't move 'em around as Vince mentioned. |
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Location: Columbus, Georgia | esoxaddict,
Thank you for your explanation. On occasion (seriously) ... I will bow to science. This is one of them.
Craig |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I agree wholeheartedly about keeping the fish in the "livewell"...that Big Kahuna net you've got hanging over the side of the boat. I see no reason to take a fish out of the water, as long as a person can safely unhook the fish while it's in the net. The slime layer is a crucial issue--especially in the summer months, as has been pointed out.
I *completely* understand how people take the utmost care to avoid dropping the fish when they are posing for a picture with it, but I still don't like the "cradle hold" that you see people doing. Just think for a second about the surface area of the fish's body that is in contact with the anglers dry, absorbent clothing. Seems like a good way to take the slime layer off one whole side of the fish to me... And in a lot of these pictures you can see the slime all over the angler's shirt.
That's gonna leave a mark.
TB |
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| indiana musky fishing was designed for fish not to live long, maybe ten years ,for fish to be caught all year long .and to get people on the water. this is not the holy land for musky and never will. all the indiana lakes together add up to one medium sized lake up north. they are overly stocked and continuing to hammer them will never hurt their numbers. the sad truth about many people commenting here is they fish for them when they spawn. even though the musky dont reproduce, they spawn . the males are beat the hell and the females are highly stressed. the eggs in webster are harvested by dnr to grow remotely are return later. theses same fisherman still hammer this fish underminding the whole system. dont tell the half truth tell the whole truth. indiana musky lakes should be fished all year. |
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| wholetruthindiana - 6/26/2007 2:14 PM
indiana musky fishing was designed for fish not to live long, maybe ten years ,for fish to be caught all year long .and to get people on the water. this is not the holy land for musky and never will. all the indiana lakes together add up to one medium sized lake up north. they are overly stocked and continuing to hammer them will never hurt their numbers. the sad truth about many people commenting here is they fish for them when they spawn. even though the musky dont reproduce, they spawn . the males are beat the hell and the females are highly stressed. the eggs in webster are harvested by dnr to grow remotely are return later. theses same fisherman still hammer this fish underminding the whole system. dont tell the half truth tell the whole truth. indiana musky lakes should be fished all year.
According to the people who study fish for a living, fishing for them when they are "highly stressed" and "beat the hell" really has no detrimental effects on the population.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34...
But fishing for them in waters with very low dissolved oxygen levels due to high water temperatures apparently does lead to increased mortality.
So who is really "underminding" the whole system??
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i just know from experience ... i was on a back bay at LOTW about 7 years ago and it was putrid hot and miserable and the temps. and o2 levels must have been low ... caught about a 39" fish and never took it out of the water and it was stone dead rolled over and just wouldn't go ... we tried in the livewell for over an hour and only took solace that an eagle would eat, but the feeling sucked and i'd rather not knowingly contribute to killing a nice fish again if i don't have to ... there are other things that can be done to take a break when one is warranted whether i have the right or not, i do have a brain and the ability to choose right from wrong based on my own belief ...
so, that being said ... of course if people want chances at big fish continuing into the future they might make plans that effect the chances and if people want their own interests served they have the right to do that too ... it makes a statement about who you are to make a choice to do the right thing for others or the resources and it's defined by a word called sportsmanship ... |
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| my statements are in regaurd to only indiana waters. and yes hammering these fish during spawn does have a very negative effrect on pottential population just as abortion does. ive seen people with spilled eggs in their boats i witnessed the terrible egg counts this year. i wish people would just accept that these indiana waters are awesome pay ponds and thats it. a "super fish" in indiana is 50 inches and most never reach 30 pounds. a monster up north will reproduce for 10 to 15 years and may live up to thirty years. not the case in indiana. 10 years of life is about it.hence , we stock the hell out of these lakes. i dont fish these lakes this time of year , but i am so sick of the bashing, name calling and half truths. the purpose of these dnr stocking regiments is to get people on the water . saying that hammering fish during spawn doesnt hurt the population is a good argument for all open seasons everywhere. but we all know that is plain crazy. |
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| Question? Why is it that there is so much discussion about warm water in the southern states, but it doesn't seem to scare certain guides from these same states off of the lakes in Minnesota when the water temp here goes over 80 degrees? Don't want to kill fish in your home waters, but no problems killing them out of state? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Answer:
Most years water temps on the big Minnesota Waters don't get high enough to be dangerous except for the first foot of surface water or so. Last year some of the Guides over there DID curtail activities for a couple weeks when it got ridiculously hot. Another answer; certain Minnesota Guides keep right on fishing as well; I know because I was over on Mille Lacs during a couple of the heat waves. No, I wasn't fishing, i was working.
Pretty unseemly accusation, J.
As far as closed seasons during the spawn,I personally believe that Dave N hit it dead on. Social issue more than biological. Opening the season with the rest of the gamefish really has little or no effect on the muskie population. Most southern states allow sight fishing BASS on the beds after finding no detrimental effects from the practice, and bass tend a nest. Muskies simply broadcast the roe on the (hopefully) correct substrate and move on, to later feast on their own young if the opportunity arises. |
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| Rude or not, its reality. We regularly see guides from the southern states, including some well known ones fishing here during the hotest periods of the summer. especially last year when the water temps were reaching into the upper 80's. Rude would be naming names, or posting pictures of trucks at the boat access. How is this any different than someone from northern MN taking a trip to fish the "nice warm waters" of Indiana right now because the fishing here hasn't heated up just yet? The point being, fishing during hot periods is just as destructive no matter where you go. Just because you go north, it doesn't make 85 degrees any colder. It pains me to see people who make there livelyhood out of musky fishing having so little respect for the fishery by justifying fishing during hot periods by moving somewhere that it is "only" 86 degrees instead of 90. |
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| You have to look at the dissolved oxygen levels and the water temps below the surface to really get the whole picture here. You're talking about completely different lakes, different depths of water, different kinds of vegetation, and different strains of fish between MN and the Southern waters. Saying there is an equal danger to the fish in both cases, without taking all the other factors into account is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. |
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| i was set and ready for my first minnesota musky fishing expereince last summer, when i got a phone call from my traveling guide buddy who was in minnesota for the summer, telling me basiclly forget about coming it was too hot and he was layin off for a while til temps cooled down. so for what it was worth i know of at least one weekend of fishing that was cancelled last year first hand by a out of state guide. guest your the same guy who has been making bold statements on another board but you never seem to want to back your talk with your name. what gives???? |
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Posts: 8865
| And I suspect that in many cases it comes down to "If I don't fish, I don't get paid, and if I don't get paid, I don't eat."
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Lots of ways to say something and get your point across without attacking, and singling out a specific group of guides and painting them all with a broad stroke when MOST kept fishing no matter where they live in the winter is unseemly. Not disagreeing with you that there are times when the guides should curtail activities, and like i said, I know of a few from 'down south' who did just that when it got too warm.
Addict has an excellent point about the water quality, dissolved oxygen levels, etc.
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Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | Not every guide from down south is guiding Mille Lacs, some are guiding on our smaller lakes and others are guiding our brood stock lakes all summer long  |
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Posts: 8865
| What difference does it make where those guides are from? |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So? So are the Guides who live there all year long. We have the same thing here in Wisconsin; $40.00 and you are a guide no matter where you hail from. used to be one had to be a resident, but that changed a few years back. Don't like out of state guides? Have your Legislature change the law and forbid that practice. But don't single them out and attack them when it's clearly an issue to be addressed by ALL muskie anglers and ALL Muskie Guides. |
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | esoxaddict - 6/28/2007 4:29 PM
What difference does it make where those guides are from?
Because these guides are leaving home waters because they are too "warm" just to guide on waters that still get too warm.
Edited by Phish Killer 6/28/2007 4:42 PM
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | sworrall - 6/28/2007 4:31 PM
So? So are the Guides who live there all year long. We have the same thing here in Wisconsin; $40.00 and you are a guide no matter where you hail from. used to be one had to be a resident, but that changed a few years back. Don't like out of state guides? Have your Legislature change the law and forbid that practice. But don't single them out and attack them when it's clearly an issue to be addressed by ALL muskie anglers and ALL Muskie Guides.
No problem with out of state guides at all, lot's of them out there on Mille Lacs...cool, that pond doesn't get all that warm. I just don't like guides in general guiding our small/brood stock lakes that's all. |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes, the tendency is to are oversimplify when 'marking territory'. Many years the surface water temps in WI and MN don't get over 75 degrees. I guarantee the temps in some Southern waters reach over 90 degrees every summer. And, I might point out, many guides are not headed to MN because the water is cooler, they are headed there because the guiding opportunities are better in the summer because it isn't 97 degrees every day and the Muskies are bigger and more numerous and the tourists come to MN to fish during that season, and not so much to the South. Age old example of supply and demand. Seems to me I see a few Yankees guiding on the Southern waters in the winter, too.
The point still is EVERYONE should exercise caution when water temps get too high. Wasn't that the point? |
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Posts: 8865
| Killer, they're leaving waters that get too warm for weeks or even months out of the season in favor of waters that get too warm for a few days here and there. More importantly, they are going where there is a demand for their services. For someone that relies on guiding to put food on the table, can you blame them for going to guide where people want to fish? Because lets be honest -- water temps aside, and home states aside, everyone is guiding in MN during the summer because thats where all their clients want to fish. If you want to be a musky guide, you have to do it where you can find enough clients to make a living at it.
It's no secret. Read all the magazines, watch the TV shows, look at the internet. If you want to go musky fishing, you go to MN. Any guide with half a brain knows that you gotta guide where people want to fish.
Edited by esoxaddict 6/28/2007 4:50 PM
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Posts: 1636
| I've been looking into this a lot more the last 2 weeks. Thanks to all that have replied to this thread.
So when temps get up to 80 degrees in Minnesota do you guys up north stop fishing? Do you cancel your fishing trips? I can recall a guy ("guide") rambling on and on and even insulting people for fishing in Indiana when the water temps were in the 80's, yet he was fishing himself in Minnesota...where the water temp wasn't any less and the fish much larger.
"guest" does make some good points. Pretty strong opinions, but some are true. SOME
Edited by Reelwise 6/28/2007 7:00 PM
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This thread was about whether or not higher than average surface temps are harmful and stressful to Muskies caught during the warm water periods, and what temps should cause concern under which conditions.
There seems to be disagreement as to what is 'too warm', and at what point each body of water has reached critical mass for water temps. There seems to be disagreement as to what 80 degree surface temps mean when it's 71 two feet down.
Pointing fingers at people and complaining anonymously won't get us anywhere with the debate.
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | There is a huge difference between smaller IN waters with temps that have been hitting the 80 degree mark for several weeks straight and larger deeper MN waters with surface temps that peaked 80 for a small period of time. |
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Posts: 3165
| Local MN muskies inc chapters should now probbably look at funding a study into this to get some closure on high water temps
Edited by happy hooker 6/29/2007 5:35 AM
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| This thread has gone from warm water issues to out of state guides. If you guys don't like the OOS guides impact on the system then do something about it. Help the DNR understand the severity of the impact and ask them to assess a substantial guide fee and/or collect taxes from their income. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Frustrated, there probably is going to be something done. The DNR was kicking around some ideas last year, but nothing has been done yet (as far as I know). One thing I DO know is that the OOS guides should be dotting their "i's" and crossing their 't's" on their taxes from what I've been hearing.
Edited by Muskie Treats 6/29/2007 8:58 AM
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Warm water dangers