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Edited by lakesuperiorkid 6/17/2007 10:59 PM
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Posts: 2361
| That is an amazing number, and wonder what the real impact is on the lake. I remember drifting across musky bay shallows throwing a johnson spoon with a pork rind and sometimes catching 3 on a single drift and losing a couple more or so. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on anything. Hard to tell what is a worse predator for musky though, a 3lb+ largemouth or a northern. Too bad there was no real catalogue of the original fish population make up in this lake. I was told by an older fisherman that earlier in the century there was a very nice bullhead population in this lake also, with some up to 2-3 lbs. | |
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Posts: 52
| From what I was told by my late father, it did have bullheads. Bass are good for keeping gills in check from what I have read. We'll have to see how this all works out. Good to see everyone working on something for a change instead of debating.
Before the DNR arrived here, netting lakes to take out fish to balance fish populations happened quite a bit. This is about 40-years too late.
Makes you wonder sometimes. Now they still have to be fished since the pike can rebound. One example of bad pike management was Horseshoe Lake where they thought that pike would help to contain the bluegill population. They stocked and they ate everything and it took years for the lake to recover. The pike went after the perch first and then down to everything else. Like musky, they like cylinder-shaped forage.
I guess stocking pike is a touchy thing to do. Good to see them throwing the bigger fish back so maybe they can grow bigger and attract more pike fishermen.
It's a start.
Edited by lakesuperiorkid 4/21/2007 7:47 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's a fact. The plan is in process! What is refreshing to me is the public involvement in creating that plan. Never an 'easy' process, but one our DNR now seems more than willing to undertake. Mr. Neuswanger had quite a bit to do with the increased communication with the public, I believe. Great trend, and a practice/concept Madison should embrace! | |
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Posts: 52
| Not sure who did what or who made the first phone call but credit should go to everyone involved. Now if the actual pollution can be taken care of, which is in itself a sad loss with no one minding the store, then perhaps things can progress for LCO.
Thanks to the guys/gals who cleaned all those pike.....think about doing that one. No reason why the DNR cannot work with public on projects, which they do however, just more around here. So that's two checks in the positive category. The purchase of Chief River was the other. DNR has to contact the LCO people anyway since the lakes are co-managed so they had to be included in the process. Musky Inc. had the coin. Reads like Musky Inc. pres. was behind the scenes doing a lot.
We'll see if people are interested in the pike down there besides getting rid of them. | |
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Posts: 178
| Steve, thanks for your steadfast support. When Terry Boettcher wrote his fine article for the Sawyer County Record, the project was not yet completed. Here are the final numbers:
When the operation ended on Monday, April 16, DNR crews had removed 2,452 northern pike less than 27 inches long from Musky Bay of Lac Courte Oreilles (an estimated 16% plus-or-minus 8% of the total lake population). The few fish we captured that were longer than 27 inches were returned to the water because our March 2006 Fishery Management Plan calls for an increase in the proportion of pike over 28 inches. The total weight of fish removed was 3,934 pounds (almost 2 tons). Of the 2,452 pike removed, 550 were under 17 inches long (deemed too small to fillet and process); these small fish were frozen for transport to the raptor rehabilitation center in Wisconsin where recovering birds of prey can be fed quality rations.
The pike between 17 and 27 inches long were processed and yielded 1,050 pounds of fish patties. Approximately 500 pounds will go to the "Fishing Has No Boundaries" organization to help with their big annual fishing event on the Chippewa Flowage for disabled anglers. Another 50 pounds will go to feed the elderly in a local nursing home. And approximately 500 pounds will go to the Sawyer County Food Pantry and the LCO Tribal Food Distribution Center in equal shares. The Hayward Lakes Chapter of Muskies, Inc. was instrumental in making this happen. President Mike Persson helped me to plan the operation and secured his Board's approval for funding up to $5,000 worth of fish processing costs. (In the end, we will have spent all but a couple hundred of that.) And Stocking Committee Chair Art Malin helped monitor the project and guide the distribution of processed fish on behalf of the Chapter.
I am very proud of my staff for working overtime at a busy time of year to make this operation succeed. Senior Fisheries Biologist Frank Pratt coordinated the collection of useful biological information and figured out how to donate all the processed fish legally (no small task, by the way). As usual, Advanced Fisheries Technician Russ Warwick was the backbone of the field operation. And our high catch rates are attributable to part-time assistant, Joe Drabek, who has decades of experience netting pike, musky, and walleye in Musky Bay as former foreman at the DNR fish hatchery in Spooner. We also have several current hatchery employees to thank for joining in the operation. Greg Gauger and others went far above and beyond their call of duty, which was simply to capture broodstock pike and walleye for hatchery production, by helping with the pike removal operation.
I also want to thank Paul Christel, LCO Conservation Department Fishery Biologist, for all his capable assistance on the water. Paul worked hard with us, side by side, just like he did last year during the Chippewa Flowage musky broodstock collection project. We have come to think of him as a true partner.
Finally, Steve, I would like to address a couple comments made by one of your frequent commentators:
DAVID TURNBULL (a.k.a. lakesuperiorkid): Now if the actual pollution can be taken care of, which is in itself a sad loss with no one minding the store, then perhaps things can progress for LCO.
DAVE N: For folks who are not aware, nobody is "minding the store" because the Wisconsin State Legislature decades ago granted legal exemption to the cranberry industry from water quality laws that apply to everyone else in Wisconsin. Amazingly, DNR has no authority to stop the high rate of input of phosphorus from the private cranberry farm that discharges directly into Musky Bay. If people want this to end, they need to write their legislators.
DAVID TURNBULL (a.k.a. lakesuperiorkid: "DNR has to contact the LCO people anyway since the lakes are co-managed so they had to be included in the process."
DAVE N: Correction. DNR does not "co-manage" Lac Courte Oreilles with anyone. We do not need anyone else's permission to do what we think is right for that fishery. However, we respect the Lac Courte Oreilles Band of Ojibwe and their legitimate interests in the LCO fishery; and we have found that their fishery biologist, Paul Christel, is an excellent partner in management (as is the Hayward Lakes Chapter of Muskies, Inc.). We are very pleased to work with Paul (and others) and to consider all interests in our management decisions and operations. But we do so on a voluntary basis.
Dave Neuswanger
Fisheries Team Leader, Upper Chippewa Basin
Wisconsin DNR, Hayward
Edited by Dave N 4/21/2007 2:10 PM
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| I think the thread was primarily on pike removal. I see some other things in here perhaps not relevant, but I do have a question on the pike population itself.
With the abundant deep water access and water quality out in the main lake on Couderay, where were the large northern? I assume there should be a good population of bigger fish. Were they already in and out of the bay after spawning, or is the whole lake population stunted? | |
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Posts: 178
| FIRSTSIXFEET: With the abundant deep water access and water quality out in the main lake on Couderay, where were the large northern? I assume there should be a good population of bigger fish. Were they already in and out of the bay after spawning, or is the whole lake population stunted?
DAVE N: I wish we could be certain, but it's beginning to look like there are not great numbers of northern pike over 28 inches long in Lac Courte Oreilles. I know there are a FEW pike that size; but my crew saw only a handful in their nets during the peak of the spawning run in Musky Bay, and I did not see them in the angler harvest when Walleyes for Northwest Wisconsin held their annual ice fishing contest in February. There were lots of nice looking fish 26-28 inches long brought to the registration station, but I saw none over 30 inches. DNR fishery biologist Frank Pratt collected many cleithrum bone samples from pike that were removed from LCO last week. By interpreting the growth rings on those bony structures, Frank will be able to age the fish accurately and determine whether the small average size of pike in LCO is due to slow growth rate or excessive harvest of fast-growing fish once they reach a desirable size. I am going to guess it's slow growth rate, because the crew saw many small pike that were sexually mature (old enough to spawn). Frank's analysis will confirm the cause.
Northern pike are highly "density-dependent" in their growth rate. If there are too many pike, they may eat many young muskies and will grow slowly due to intense competition for preferred prey. Fishery research biologist Rod Pierce and his colleagues with the Minnesota DNR have demonstrated the latter phenomenon conclusively. So it should benefit both the musky population and the pike population of LCO to have some pike removed.
Dave Neuswanger
Fisheries Team Leader, Upper Chippewa Basin
Wisconsin DNR, Hayward
Edited by Dave N 4/21/2007 11:32 PM
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Posts: 2361
| OK tHANKS DAVE.
A couple more questions.
I thought that deep water/cool water access was a limit on northerns, though obviously forage could be a problem, but in Couderay there are cisco, and were? whitefish, and I can attest from a fisherman's standpoint there is a huge perch population in that lake, all around the lake. Slow growth or stunting does not seem like it would be a problem. Is the stunting occurring early in life and a coninuing influence as they get older? Is the non native strain introduced into Couderay simply a runt northern strain as has been discovered there are runt musky strains? Is there a problem involved in the size of musky bay itself?
Does, or has anybody studied Northern Pike strains? Obviously we are not growing the same northern pike that seem to be present in Europe. It would seem that northern pike with its relative abundance and weedlike propensity to live in water, might be a more fruitful and rewarding area for study rather than even, heaven forbid, musky genetics.
To paraphrase a raw slang saying, "Nobody would kick the WI DNR out of bed if they were to introduce or isolate a 25-35 lb strain of Northern Pike."
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Posts: 178
| FIRSTSIXFEET: A couple more questions... I thought that deep water/cool water access was a limit on northerns, though obviously forage could be a problem, but in Couderay there are cisco, and were? whitefish, and I can attest from a fisherman's standpoint there is a huge perch population in that lake, all around the lake. Slow growth or stunting does not seem like it would be a problem.
DAVE: We have some evidence that the cisco population is down in Lac Courte Oreilles, and whitefish are very rare. The best INDIRECT evidence that ciscos are less numerous than in the past is our documentation of fair to good natural reproduction and recruitment of walleye in LCO for four consecutive years (2000 through 2003) after many years of weak walleye year classes. Ciscos eat larval walleye and may compete with them for zooplankton prey. The sudden success of walleye reproduction may be related to a decline in cisco density.
FIRSTSIXFEET: Is the stunting [of northern pike] occurring early in life and a continuing influence as they get older?
DAVE: You're ahead of me here, First. We don't yet know if the pike are growing slowly in LCO. We need to examine the cleithrum bones collected last week before we can know if northern pike growth rate is stunted in LCO.
FIRSTSIXFEET: Is the non-native strain introduced into Couderay simply a runt northern strain as has been discovered there are runt musky strains?
DAVE: We know nothing about northern pike genetics at this point in time. And I am aware of only one strain, or genetic stock, of muskellunge that is proven to grow at a significantly slower rate and reach a smaller ultimate size than other muskies. Those are the fish from Shoepac Lake, MN (and presumably other lakes in that vicinity). All else is speculation at this point, genetically speaking.
FIRSTSIXFEET: Is there a problem involved in the size of Musky Bay itself?
DAVE: I'm not really sure what you're asking here, First. But if your question is predicated on the notion that LCO pike are growing slowly, then we better wait until we've actually measured their growth rate.
FIRSTSIXFEET: Does, or has anybody studied Northern Pike strains? Obviously we are not growing the same northern pike that seem to be present in Europe.
DAVE: To my knowledge, nobody has studied northern pike strains. But I've not delved into the literature looking for that information, so there may have been some research of which I am unaware. Also, it is not obvious to me that pike in Europe are significantly different, genetically, from pike in North America. There are big pike in many European waters, just like there are big pike in Lake Superior, in many Canadian lakes, and in the Yukon River watershed of Alaska. But for all I know, that has more to do with habitat conditions and prey availability than with genetics. It will be interesting to see such questions answered in the coming decades.
Dave Neuswanger
Fisheries Team Leader, Upper Chippewa Basin
Wisconsin DNR, Hayward | |
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Posts: 2361
| Thanks for taking time to answer Dave, know you have a lot of other stuff to do.
As for the pike, seeing the pictures of European pike and not seeing anything like that in the states that I can recall, makes you think you are looking at something different.
It would make an interesting study and from the information I've retained it seems like those pike do not have special food resources and some are growing in similar environments to what we have, with the exception perhaps of the Baltic Sea, we're missing one of those. Dang.  | |
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Location: Rhinelander. | for a change I have to agree with firstsixfeet. When I look at pike from europe and those pictured from holland I wonder what strain they are. I can't believe they are related to the pike here. There is such an extreme difference that one truely has to wonder.I should hope that the genetics of the large ovesea pike are being looked into today and not 10 or 20 years down the road. These are beautiful large fish and the key to them is there not here.
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Location: The desert | Would be interesting to see if there is a difference genetically between the US and the European pike....or perhaps its due to them being in bigger waters with fewer pike in the system out there? I know they have a good forage in some trout out there. | |
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| Let's not forget the C&R ethic for Pike in Europe also. | |
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Location: n.ireland | as a pike fisherman in ireland i am curious to the cultural difference in pike fishing v muskies,are pike thought of as an inferior species or an alien one?
in my experience where a large number of small fish(10lb or less)are present in a water the most effective way of controling them is a larger fish.
there is also a lot of controversy with trout anglers hell bent on the removal of all fish from their waters despite studies confirming that the number of fish caught is roughly 90 percent of those stocked so the pike is not the voracious killer it is thought to be
the same fate also befell the zander released into waters in the south of england in the 1960's although now things are settling down
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2500 Pike Removed