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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Hey folks.
I'm thinking of starting my own guide business. Not looking to step on the toes of any established guides (Espeicaly on this board). I intend on guiding Peshtigo river flowages, Roberts, Archibald, and DuBay chiefly for Muskys, but Bait fish as well (walleyes and smallies, big market in this area).
1) Am I steping on anyone's toes?
2) What are the tax hoops I need to jump through?
3) anything else i need to think of, that i have not asked?
I am not intrested in guiding on Green bay at this time (as I have ALOT to learn, as well as I do not have a captians license, YET.
Also, My buddy's K-bob, and Muskymaj, may look into a three way partnership. any advice in a group venture would be apprciated (we all have different disiplines).
Edited by muskynightmare 4/8/2007 11:53 PM
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Location: WI | Hey Rob, I guide on 2 of the lakes you mentioned Roberts and Archibald. There arent a whole lot of guides in this area for musky anyway. Myself, Dannyboy, Rick Meverden (Ricks Rods), and Travis Kopke are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. But this isnt really a hot musky destination, as most people pass it by on the way to tourist land.
To answer your questions
1) Cant speak for anyone else, but it doesnt bother me. One word of advise though as most the stocked fish in these two lakes are stocked by the lake association and NOT the DNR, they get pretty owly with those who are exploiting the resource for monetary benefit.
Having lived in the area now for five years and donating $ and time to area lake associations it has gotten better, I no longer have to take 2 spare boat trailer tires with me.
2) Change your name to cash. As much as possible anyway. After referral kickbacks, and other misc expenses its just easier.
3) Plenty. Call me if you are serious 715 850 0573 as I dont visit the boards very much anymore. | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Rob,
One of the biggest things I can stress is to make sure you are insured. Most of the normal boat policy's are void if one does this crazy thing for $'s. Not only does that include guiding but also tournaments. Worst case scenario, a client gets hurt or worse while in your boat and come after you, your insurance company finds out you were guiding and leaves you hanging in the wind. Commercial insurance is a necessary expense.
Other than that, give them an honest effort, be personable, and good luck. | |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "2) Change your name to cash. As much as possible anyway. After referral kickbacks, and other misc expenses its just easier. "
c'mon now...no guide would work for cash to avoid taxes would they?
might not be the best idea to post publicly! | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I have found that if done properly and legally, guide business' in some years can be a tax benefit. Not every year mind you, and probably not if you are doing it as a "hobby" business. If you are doing it as a hobby business, you use your income to offset expenses but can't claim a loss, almost a legal version of what has been suggested. You would probably want to check with an accountant and try to do this on the up and up.
If you are going into business it is best to treat it as such. It doesn't lend a whole bunch of confidence to your clients if you are asking them to help you hide the income. | |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Kind of like, "I just won a million dollars in the state lottery and I'm gonna guide for muskies until it's all gone!"? m | |
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Posts: 2089
| How does a muskie fisherman/woman become a millionaire? He/she starts with 2. Steve | |
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Posts: 354
| This isn't meant to be an attack but rather an objective observation.
Last year you routinely stated on this site that you went almost the whole year without catching a musky. Now you're accomplished enough to be a guide? This may sound harsh but as a good friend of mine often states don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer. | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | greenduck ... i think that's always a fair question. it's one i've got experience answering and even more experience asking myself. i continuously ask to myself in my own judgement of whether i should or shouldn't base on whether or not i would hire me. in 2005 due to some personal issues i found myself on the water constantly and felt completely in-tune with what was going specifically with lots of experience on some good water with results to show for it. i got in because someone i knew wanted to have a "back-up" for either being double booked or sick or conflict et al ... i was successful on all guide trips i did that year for good reason ... because i was out there constantly. it was helpful getting some extra cash to make boat payments during a tough time and my "product" introduced people to something worth it with the interest to repeat.
last year was very different as i was traveling constantly and didn't fish as much although i still carried my license and guided some repeaters that want to get out with me ... and i was able to donate to the boards to raise some money (thankfully scored well for the winning bidder) to some great causes ... my question to whether i would be able to produce for clients was more difficult to feel confident in, but at the end of the year it was a good choice to do what i did.
this year i've got the huge question ... should i or shouldn't i. i'm leaning toward the shouldn't more and more because i just think you have to consider the very questions you have asked.
there's a whole lot different situation in a boat with a paying customer than there is with somebody going fishing ... and you have to ask yourself some very tough questions.
could i put people on patterns, fish and success ... absolutely. would i be in-tune to be "in the business" ... no way. it takes so much time on the water, understanding of what's going on and success for the client.
i think it was EA who mentioned paying a guide for maybe 8 or 10 trips fishless ... that kind of thing just shouldn't happen.
i sent a form in with 40 bucks and was a guide ... knowing me i would have hired me in 2005 in a heartbeat ... in 2006 i would have hired someone else. it's all a matter of how much time and the results you're able to achieve ... anyone can try and then there are the people who make it ... not unlike any other business.
my 16 yuan | |
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| i think there's being a guide, and then there's being a Guide, and the only person who really decides between the two is the client who decides who he's going to hire.
there are lots of people in the first category. they like fishing, they like showing people a good time, and they figure they can make a little money doing it part-time. there are tons of guides like this working weekends on resort referrals, etc. are they all "in-tune" with what the muskies are doing every day? nope, especially the part-time multi-species guys who maybe do a handful of muskie trips all year.
i would never go so far as to say whether they should or shouldn't be guiding, ultimately it's up to them to decide if they're acting responsibly. like everything you're spending a lot of money on: buyer beware. the guides who are going to be successful are those who understand that reputation means everything and building reputation starts long before you ever "hang out the shingle", as people have noted already.
the second group is the full-time Guide, the person who's on the fish and confidently able to put clients onto fish. there's no "i hope they're biting today" for these guides, but rather a direct cause-effect relationship between what they're doing and the results their clients are seeing. that can only come with experience, and that's what their clients are paying them to do.
i like Sled's point of view: he's asking himself the tough questions, not pointing figures at others and judging whether or not they should or shouldn't be doing something. it suggests a certain maturity and self-confidence that he isn't threatened by what others do nor unwilling to be honest with himself.
imho, that's much more productive than looking around and saying "i caught more fish than so-and-so" or "that guy is hurting the status of the term 'guide'." judge yourself against yourself and base your actions on what that tells you to do.
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Good posts Lambeau and Sled! | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Hi folks,
Thanx for the imput thus far. I hope it continues.
Greenduck, fair assesment. However, I did not get alot of opportunities to fish last year due to being fired (no cash to go), knee surgery (could not stand for a while), and a pinched nerve (I could not cast for almost two months).
I did put my wife on her PB last year, and yes, I got only four fish last year, but they were both two fish days.
I guess that the jumping through tax hoops was worded wrong. I am not looking to avoid taxes. I just needed some basic info on it.
I am not looking to do this full time, and would also be guiding for walleyes. I love educating others. I love taking folks fishing. If I can do two things that I love, and make the boat payment, even better.
If this was to turn into full time, that would be sweet, if not, that's ok.
I figure I'll go full time 27 years from now when I retire.
I like the fact nobody is candy-coating anything. Keep it coming. | |
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Posts: 8777
| I've considered guiding too.
(I'll wait a second for all y'all to quit laughing before I go on...)
I guess what I mean is I've considered it as something I'd be interested in pursuing in the future, and done a lot of thinking about what it takes to be a good guide. Having done nearly all my fishing with guides I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Some things are essential:
1. Knowledge of your local waters that would go beyond what the average fisherman would know. How I would get there?
(I can't speak in terms of how long it would take other than to say several hundred days on each body of water I planned on guiding. )
A. Structure -- not just the obvious points, bars, etc that everyone fishes, but the stuff that not everybody knows. Spots on the spot, things you would never find unless you had spend days and days and days with a map, GPS cards, marking waypoints, diving, underwater cameras, whatever means necessary to know that body of water like nopbody else does.
B. Seasonal patterns -- not just muskies, but the whole food chain. And not just one season where you fished every day, but several seasons. Enough where you understand the seasonal patterns and how they change from year to year.
I guess what I'm trying to say is simple -- you have to know that lake (or lakes) like you know your own living room.
And that's something that takes a long time. As for how I would know that I was ready to guide? When I could hit the water every day and be confident that I did everything possible to put fish in the boat, and that there was no better path I could have taken. When I felt like "I know this lake as well as or better than anyone out here" I'd be comfortable guiding on it.
2. Boat control -- obvious, but worth mentioning. If you can't put the boat right where you want it, EVERY TIME, so your client can make that perfect cast? You're not ready.
3. Desire to teach. I don't want to be an outfitter. I want people to leave my boat with knowledge and skill they didn't have this morning, no matter who they are or what their background is. Along with that comes a desire to LEARN. Nobody knows everything, most everybody knows something, and a few people know nothing. Being able to tell the difference and learn from those who know something you might not is important.
4. Personality. I have to be friendly, accomodating, positive, and confident every minute of every day no matter what. That means I have to be able to say "hey that's ok" when a client throws my Calcutta and my $200 custom rod 30 yards on a cast, or steps on my new rod, loses my favorite bait, or spills red kool aid all oveer the carpeting of my new Ranger.
5. Availibility. If you're going to call yourself a guide and charge $350 for a day on the water, you had better either be out there every day, or have a network of people you can be in touch with who are. No matter how good you are and how well you know the water, if its been a month since you were out musky fishing, you're not going to be dialed in to what's going on out there. I don't want to waste 6 hours of my clients day while I'm trying to find the fish because I haven't been out in a month.
It might take me 5 years, or 10, but I will not call myself a guide until I personally feel I am worth what I'm charging and would hire me if I wasn't me.
And I still won't know if I really have the personality for it until I've actually done it for a season. Because let's face it -- unless you're guiding on the best musky waters and you are the best at what you do, nobody is going to want to hire you if you are a jerk.
And to be 100% honest? That's the part I might struggle with, is being patient, understanding, calm, and friendly enough to be a guy people want to hire. All the rest just comes with time and experience.
I hope I have the time to get the experience.
I already have the passion for these silly fish.
God knows I have enough gear.
But I'm a long way from being guide material!
Edited by esoxaddict 4/9/2007 3:34 PM
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Very thought provoking reply EA.
My own thought process before entering the guiding arena was very much like that. It was at the advice of others that I started my business in the first place, I was too insecure about my abilities at that time to make the leap on my own. To this day those same thoughts go through my head before every trip with clients. I want to give my clients the best available shot at boating a fish, they are paying me their hard earned money to give them that shot. There are periods through every year when the fish have me scratching my head wondering why anyone would pay me to take them fishing. Musky fishing can do that to you.
I have gotten a little better (some would say too much better) on the confidence level. I can honestly say that I expect to boat fish every time I launch the Tuffy. That is a MUST if you are going to guide. You have to expect fish, and I don't mean have a positive attitude, you have to have enough confidence in your own ability and past performances to absolutely know you are going to catch a fish or two any given day. That is paramount to being a guide.
Not far after ability (I'm not even sure it comes behind)comes personality. You have to really like people. You are going to be stuck in a 19' area with two complete strangers for the best part of a day. You are the teacher, entertainer, friend, etc. for these people for the entirety of their trip. They will remember the 10 hours of conversation and teachings more than they will the sporadic spurts of activity that come with musky fishing. If people get on your nerves easily, this is not for you.
Dedication is a huge component for being successful at this gig also. Are you able to give as much effort on the 6th day straight of guiding that you did on the first. What if the wind is howling, or its an all day rain. What if the temp dropped 20 degrees overnight. Are you still able to give your clients everything you got. Believe it or not this becomes work, albeit my office is way cool, it does get to be work some days. If you ever let on to your clients that its work, you are in serious trouble in the long haul.
Another thing that a huge % of people could never handle with guiding, are you ready to give up your secrets. Do you have a lake X, or even a spot X that you pretty much have to yourself. Can you show others that lake or spot day after day? I have burned up a few of my go to spots on Pelican by showing clients. In fact, what used to be my best obscure spot on the lake was pretty much dead last year and far from obscure. You become your own worst enemy when it comes to people fishing your spots, but you cannot hold back when people are paying you. Their success is the ultimate goal, not making sure no one fishes your honey hole.
There are a lot of things that people don't consider when it comes to "hanging out the shingle". This is not in any way to say anyone is not capable or qualified to be a guide. Like I said, there are days when I wonder about myself. Just a few points to ponder. | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | nwild - 4/9/2007 3:56 PM
I can honestly say that I expect to boat fish every time I launch the Tuffy. That is a MUST if you are going to guide. You have to expect fish, and I don't mean have a positive attitude, you have to have enough confidence in your own ability and past performances to absolutely know you are going to catch a fish or two any given day. That is paramount to being a guide.
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that is "IT" in the nutshell. if you've been in that zone, you know how huge that statement is ... and if that zone is something that's beyond you ... well, you know that too ... and it comes and goes season after season depending on the dedication and results you can achieve and continue to apply to your business.
well said Norm | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Now I cant take full credit for what I am about to say as it is the ideas of someone else that I know on the subject of guiding..........
Basically you can take a look around the area you are in and I would venture to guess that there a fair amount of various guides for various species. One possible way to get up in the ranks and have your name out there over others is to fill a certain type of niche in your area. Now this could be anything. The example given to me by this person was about a friend of his who began guiding people by targeting bluegills by fly rod. Take a look in your area...is there a certain niche you could fill out there? Fly fishing for gills? Carp? Muskies perhaps??
One other word of advice for you, if you are planning on fishing Dubay you are tackling a monster! Tons and tons of water to cover out there and from what I understand, a fishable, yet relatively small population of muskies.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do Rob, I hope for the best for you! | |
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Posts: 2012
| Rob,
I would highly suggest you talk to a tax professional -keep record of your expenses. You will be able to "write-off" many expenses against any income from guiding - everything from gas, to baits, to electronics, to client rods, and on and on. My accountant set up a schedule to depreciate my boat over 5 years as well.
Justin
Edited by IAJustin 4/9/2007 6:41 PM
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Posts: 1168
| Gee Pointer, that story about the guy flyfishing is awful familiar...hehehehe. It's a good point though and the guy is doing really well. He just got his feet wet by flyfishing for gills and has since expanded making himself more versatile. He went with something rather easy, built up credibility for himself, and now is succeeding because by word of mouth people are talking about him. One hell of a walleye fisherman as well and where that is where his passion is, he still does the bluegill thing to change things up.
Just being able to put fish in the boat is actually a small part of guiding. Having confidence in your abilities to put fish in the boat is obviously a must but how much confidence will you have in keeping your cool when a client breaks equipment, when you've picked the umpteenth backlash of the day, or when you just have someone who has unreasonable expectations. I'm sure some of the guides on here can chime in on that one, but from the little dabbling in it that I've done myself I can tell you that it's an easier pill to swallow when you don't put a fish in the boat for someone than it is when you have someone in the boat that just rubs you the wrong way.
The best muskie fisherman that I know would make a terrible guide. It's uncanny but that guy could probably fish in a septic tank and find them but he fully admits that he doesn't relate well with people and that's why he won't even consider participating in discussions online. Heck, it wouldn't shock me if he's never touched a computer in his life so he puts together jigsaw puzzles instead.
I too had considered taking that leap at one time after a few others encouraged me but I'm glad I never did. 04 and 05 were good years numbers wise but I didn't enjoy them as much as I should have because I was pressing too much. Last year was much different. Fewer fish but the hours per fish swung heavily in my favor and I enjoyed it much more than the previous two years. Would fishing become more of a job instead of something you enjoy doing? That's what it boiled down to for me and I hear that from guides I know. They don't enjoy it as much as they once did and end up regretting taking that jump from time to time. Hearing such things as "I have to be on the water" instead of "I want to be on the water" is a pretty telling statement.
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Everyone's feelings, statements, etc. is better than i expected from this post. I have been with two guides in the last two years.
One, total vaccuum as far as personality goes. He sucked the life out of everyone on the water, no matter how far away they were, and has killed several muskys last year.
the other, good guy, knowledgable of his waters, but I really had to ask him alot of questions as to why we were on this lake, why he did not tell me to throw this or that, etc. I aint bagging on this guy by any means.
I want to give someone the benefit of my knowledge if he is gonna give me the benefit of his hard earned wages. Granted, these guides took me out for free, but tell me why we are doing what we are doing and why we are working what we are working.
The first guy I met through a previous position, and is mainly a walleye guy, who's forte' was trolling. if he had to jig, rig, or anything else but troll, would be lost.
Keep up with the candor, this is what I need to make an informed decision. | |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | I don't guide, but have A LOT of friends that are. I also have hired 1 guide once to learn a very tough/dangerous body of water.
What I want in a guide and I don't think I am alone, are the following qualities(others have other opinions obviously) : These are not in order of importance as you will see.
1. Great personality. Has to at least make it SEEM like he wants to be on the water with me...and not doing it just because. Able to relate information and stories to keep you engauged, fired up, and educate at the same time.
This is the "entertainment" factor I guess.
2. This person best be willing to answer a 1000 questions....because that is why I am hiring them...to learn as much as I can about a given body of water etc. But, I don't want BS either. IF you don't know...you don't know...don't give me BS that you think I want to hear. This goes to point number 3.
3. This person better have caught a TON of muskies....more specifically, a LOT of muskies on the body of water I am looking to learn. I am going to ask questions about spots...why is this spot good...what makes it good...what have you caught here...when...why?? I try and put all the pieces together so I can better understand what type of locations, baits, etc make that lake click.
IF YOU HAVE CAUGHT 3 FISH FROM THIS LAKE HOW WILL YOU HELP ME???
I don't want someone who is going to spew the last 6 issues of muskie hunter at me. I want to learn from someone that has put in the time and can tell you via experience the ins and outs of a lake...the 20 muskies they have caught from spot X, why they fish spot X, what makes that structure hot...what times of year...factors...factors....etc etc....
Now.....I have caught a muskie or two in my day so where I am at for a guide is VERY different then someone just learning the sport. I think these folks would be wieghted VERY heavy on the #1 I posted....then the education would be along the basic lines etc.
I think there are some guides that are Great at what I am looking for and others that are great for newbies.
My two cents....
Cory
Edited by C.Painter 4/10/2007 9:31 AM
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Posts: 8777
| Rob, I would suggest hiring some guides. And maybe not the names, guys who everybody talks about, etc. But some of the lesser known local guys. I've fished with maybe a dozen guides, and it probably took 6 before I really understood what I want out of a guide, and what would make me hire him again.
More than just taking people fishing as many others have said. Find out what kind of guide you want to be, and what kind of guide you DON'T want to be...
Just one guys opinion here, but 90% of it for me is if I like the person at the end of a really tough day. I hate to focus on the negative here, but here are some things various guides have done that really turned me off:
1. Not giving ANY information about the spots we were fishing. I want to know how this area lays out so maybe I can fish it again.
2. Sitting on the phone talking to tomorrow's clients, and his wife, and his friend, and his...
3. Saying "ok guys, just so you know, nobody's caught anything out here for three days. These fish ain't moving, so don't get your hopes up"
WHAT?! Ok, that might be true, and I can deal with that. I know its supposed to be 95 today and surface temps will be up over 80 by 11:00, But you tell us that before we even leave the DOCK?? I'm sorry, but that's a tidbit you just KEEP TO YOURSELF.
4. Broken equipment.... Stuff breaks, I get that. But when its been broke and its something like oh, I don't know, the TROLLING MOTOR? Bad move dude. Get a new one, fix the old one, borrow a boat...
5. "whoops, I forgot my net"... AT HOME.
6. showing up late/calling it early... Ok, I understand being 10 minutes late, but half an hour? I paid for 8 hours, and I shouldn't have to have that cut short so you can "beat rush hour traffic"...
7. Not even seeing a fish. Again and again, and again... and again... Tough days are one thing. But tough seasons? come on now...
8. "Man, I give up. What do you think we should do"?
Very long winded way of saying be someone people can respect, someone they like, and someone they really enjoy fishing with. If you can do that, you'll make a fine guide. | |
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| What about the guides who fall in the lake retrieving a rod but have cat like reflexes and get back in the boat in time to net your fish! 
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Posts: 8777
| You mean the fish that was laying there by then like "ok, I'm done now, you gonna unhook me or what?"
And wait a second.. wouldn't cat like reflexes prevent you from falling in to begin with? | |
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| Rob, you can give out all the knowledge you know about the bodies of water that you plan on fishing but if your not on those bodies of water day in or day out your going to run into trouble. Are you planing on guiding full time? Weekends? Or just a day here and a day there? I wish ya the best of luck. I would love to guide part time myself just for the fact that I love teaching people how to musky fish but if we had a tough day I would have a hard time taking their money no matter how much I tought them about the lake/lakes. So instead I just try to get new people into the sport each year including kids.
Mr Musky | |
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Posts: 454
| Just a thought to ponder........
We all agree that being on the water day in and day out is going to give you an advantage for putting clients on fish, but with that said are the guides who are on the water day in and day out that much better, or are they seeing better results because of time on the water?
I have fished with several "accomplished" guides, guides who people have great respect for and I have went an entire day not even having a single follow. Are they a bad guide? I don't think so, muskie fishing is tough. Numbers alone don't make you a great guide. The body of water you guide on can greatly dictate the numbers of fish you score.
I have often thought about guiding myself. I am a teacher, I have my summer off if I choose to. I am on the water virtually every day fishing muskie anyway, but the main reason I have not pulled the trigger is because I don't want to lose my love for the sport. Would guiding do that? I don't know. Keep in mind that when you guide you are on the water at sunrise and off when your client says they are ready, at least that is what I feel a good guide would do. Lots of long days and during the heat of the middle of summer, those days can be real LONG, but as a guide you need to fight through that and keep your client optimistic a fish is coming. | |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I think one of the biggest things a guide must have to do it, and enjoy it, is A LOT of patience....I don't have a ton of patience when it comes to people who don't listen or don't try to do what they are taught/told...I'm not saying it's "my way or the highway" but if someone isn't willing to properly execute a figure 8 despite knowing exactly how to do it..that gets on my nerves..
I agree with Corys summary above...
I enjoy putting people on fish, and do a bit of guiding and will do more this year but after taking a ton of people from newbies to experienced guys out in the last few years I gotta hand it to the guys that do it full time...I know I just don't have the patience to put up with all they have to put up with day in and day out...
I personally think guides should be very succesful on the bodies of water they want to guide and earn money before starting to guide..now it might not be that they have to have 100 fish from a body of water but there is some merit to the number of fish under ones belt before being able to pass on those fish catching skills down to a client...what is that number? well as others have said it's up to the individual to decide and determine if they are worthy of the dollar value they are going to charge...
Agree with Norm too..expecting to catch fish each time out is what my mindset is...if you are guiding, you better have that mindset and if you don't, don't guide..
I've been fortunate to fish with some of what I would consider the better guides out there..guys like Lee T. really know how to make a day fun and productive...Lee knows boat control...if you want to guide make sure you are good at boat control before doing it as well..can mean the difference between catching fish and puzzled why you didn't.
Edited by MSKY HNR 4/10/2007 2:09 PM
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| lots of good discussion here.
many of my comments have been already stated.
but i will relay a few.
if i were considering hiring a guide i want them to have that unnending passion, the "fever" as it is sometimes called.
a man i know and i respect very much asked me alive or dead who i would fish for, for 1 day for $1 millon.
my answer and his answer were very identical. 2 different fisherman with the same unnending passion.
we call them musky machines.....
hope this helps.
feel free to shoot me an email anytime. i guide some of the waters you mentioned.
and no your not stepping on anyones toes. we all do better when we work together.
as far as taxes. i let my accountant do this. 1 less headache for me. i keep all recipts and turn in all days. i certainly don't want a fine over something i do on the side that i love.
like steve jonesi said to a point. we arent in this to make a ton of money. we probly lose some......
and oh sled as far as your descision my advice is guide my friend. you have the passion and i know you can do very well at it....
dannyboy
www.dannyboysguideservice.com
dnnymusky@yahoo,com
715-674-2061
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| Your resume best have a few fish. Quite a few! Everyone would love to be a guide and everyone can. Send the DNR your 40.00 and fill out the paperwork. I have held a guides license for 7 years and will continue to hold one until I give it up. I don't advertise and I only do a few gigs each year for some selected clients. I will stick with my main job and sideline until it is time to retire. You will have to take the time to prove yourself if you want to make a living doing it. Lots of guys have musky experience, but do you have enough to try to make it? Just wondering. | |
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| I'm surprised the "get what you pay for" mentality hasn't come up more in this discussion.
If I'm going to pay $300+ bucks I'm probably going to want a guy that fishes every day, is very in tune with conditions and can give me the greatest chance of putting some fish in the net. That guide probably has to charge this much for all the effort they put in, not to mention it's thier livelihood.
On the other hand I think there's also a potential "market" for someone who guides occasionally but knows musky fishing and certain lakes pretty well and can teach newer fishermen spots, tactics, etc. The focus here is more on teaching, not on putting fish in the net. I'm guessing people are not willing to pay as much for this, but it seems like you wouldn't have much trouble finding people willing to pay maybe $100 bucks for such a service. It would help cover your expenses and also bring some personal satisfaction which sounds like your goal anyway.
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| I would think to guide on the waters you listed that you are very experianced on those lakes like 10-15 years experiance on them, and you know there seasonal patterns and could put fish in the net.If I was to hire a guide i also would want on the water experiance.Not something memorized out of a magazine.I also would like to see results.You also as a guide have to cater to the clients and get along with everyones personalitys.
Read up the article "So you want to be a guide"Musky hunter magazine.
Mike | |
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| Minnesota55 - 4/10/2007 6:32 PM
I would think to guide on the waters you listed that you are very experianced on those lakes like 10-15 years experiance on them, and you know there seasonal patterns and could put fish in the net.If I was to hire a guide i also would want on the water experiance.Not something memorized out of a magazine.I also would like to see results.You also as a guide have to cater to the clients and get along with everyones personalitys.
Read up the article "So you want to be a guide"Musky hunter magazine.
Mike
BE CAREFUL!!!!! I got beat up here once before when I questioned ones experience based on actual/ versus whats been absorbed from "Musky Hunter" magazine. I hate to say this, but there are alot of book smart fisherman out there. I would rather learn from someone that has attended the "College Of Hard Knocks".....so to speak. | |
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| I would think to guide on the waters you listed that you are very experianced on those lakes like 10-15 years experiance on them, and you know there seasonal patterns and could put fish in the net.
i agree with the "very experienced" on the particular lake part, and knowing patterns is clearly a key.
however, i don't think it takes 10-15 years to develop that; few of the top and most popular guides out there right now have that much time on the waters they are guiding but they've got enough experience and time on the water every season to know the daily patterns, plus the fishing smarts to use them.
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | Just remember broken poles, broken reels, lost lures, new line from birds nests, people hooked, lost net when someone drops it in the water, broken parts on the boat. Remember alot of these people will have never fished before. I think it can be done but there is some hidden expenses upfront, how about right handed and left handed reels, maybe even and open face, some non musky lures for older and younger clients. Then you have your time. Just some thoughts..
pga | |
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| It took two pages, but pgaschulz finally brought it up. Prepare to fish with and clean up after lots and lots of people who do next to no fishing. Having the multi-species angle/option covered will help you huge.
My $0.000002 is to ask yourself what YOU plan on getting into guiding. Are you looking to teach and help fishermen develop? Earn extra money? Earn full-time money? Get a decal for your truck, a baseball hat and a tackle company's 20% Pro-Staff Discount for selling their stuff? Meet new friends? Just get the chance to fish a lot? There's some overlap, but I don't think any of these potential reasons are mutually exclusive in and of themselves. It can abe a lot of fun, nothing but the best bud. | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | the point on either being able to teach bait-casting technique or be prepared with alternate equipment is a good one. i have a spinning reel mounted on a musky rod (grind off the trigger on a bench grinder) ... i don't like to have to resort to that as an option, but have had to go that route in the past. | |
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| I believe that they ought to adopt a stringent guide classification system. I work in the building trades, and when I started my career I was an "apprentice", making 60% of journeyman scale. Over three years I gained experience and the title "journeyman". I wish guides had to "pay their dues" similarly!
There should be a governing body who decides how much a guide can charge. Each winter, a guide would have to have a "review" where he/she documents every guided trip of the preceding year. Clients would send report cards to this governing body and would be of secondary importance in the review. The primary factor in deciding if a guide deserves a pay raise would be quantity and quality of boated musky. I believe this would bring more respect to the guiding industry, and increase the market considerably. My last crazy idea is that any client who is "skunked" gets a coupon for another day of his choosing(within 2 years) at half price. | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I disagree. A guide can charge what he feels his services are worth. Its up to the angler to decide whether they feel that guide is worthy of that price. It is also up to the angler to do research on a guide. Contact passed clients, ask questions on message boards, talk to the guide personally. There is plenty of information out there to base a decision on. If by some chance you hire a crappy guide, you will be able to talk about that guide places and not recommend them, so in a sense they are giving themselves a bad rap and in turn hurting their business. Do your research before you hire a guide and I doubt that you would be disapointed. If you are, then dont be a sally and speak up about it. | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Lots of great stuff brought up so far!
I want to address a few things:
About having the patience to teach newbies; Everyone I have fished muskys with, other than 4 people, I have gotten into the sport, taught them to cast, lure selection, spots, etc. Of course "stuff Happens" and things get broke or lost. Fact of life.
For backlashes when teaching a newbie to cast, I pull out 20 more yards of line than a regular cast, and then wrap the spool with electrician's tape, then reel in the remaining line. If a backlash does happen, it only happens down to the tape.
What do I plan on getting out of guiding?;
I am looking to teach and help fishermen develop, and Earn extra part-time money. As far as getting a decal for your truck, a baseball hat and a tackle company's 20% Pro-Staff Discount for selling their stuff, My two favorite baitmakers in the world already hook me up. Meet new friends? Are we all not looking for new friends? Some move away, some die, some just go their seperate ways. Just get the chance to fish a lot? If I fish, it's up to the client. I can run the bowmount from the rear of the boat. If they don't want me to wet a line, that is up to them.
a stringent guide classification system?
While this sounds reel (pun) good in theory, I doubt that fishing guides will ever be under the scrutiny of an ISO 9000 classification. If you (or anyone else, not picking on you guest) were a client of mine and you felt cheated, you would complain about me to ten peple. Whoever, if you felt you got your monies worth, you would tell maybe 5 people about me. That's human nature.
Guest, your last idea is not crazy at all. I had already thought of it, and will implement that, with some exceptions (ie: client used his own equipment after I advised against it because of a damaged rod or frayed line, his partner insisted on doing the net job and botched it terribly, etc), and 25% off if they had hot follows.
I do disagree about your statement of guides being prostitutes. Guides like Lunker Lou Eich, Howie Meyer, Steve Worral, Norm Wild, and Roger Sabota, Rich Reinhart (there are many more, just not coming to mind right now), are some of the greatest people I have met! Whether you hire them, or just ask them for advice, they always are willing to give you honest information. They may not say "go over to this spot and throw this", but they would say " look for this type of structure and work it thorough and slow with a bait that has some orange on it". Sure, some guys are just out there to make a buck and nothing else. However, they are the exception, rather than the rule.
Thanx to all so far for your input!
Edited by muskynightmare 4/11/2007 3:30 PM
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Posts: 8777
| esux, That would kill the business. First off, you'd be paying based on the lake and not the guide. Which would mean all the lakes that lack size and or numbers? No more guides to hire. And on the lakes with great musky fishing? There'd be so many guides none of them would be able to make any money.
Guides are raising their prices right now because gas is $3/gallon, boats are more expensive, trucks are more expensive, gear is more expensive...
By the time you pay for all your stuff, a full time guide is probably lucky to clear $15/hour.
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| I have been reading this post for some time now. For me personally, a guided fish I caught would not be as rewarding as catching one on my own, therefore I would never hire one. This is musky fishing, part of the excitement is the hunt, the thrill of figuring it out.
I am sorry Rob, but from reading your posts over the years, and this is trying to be constructive, you are not qualified to be a guide. How many actual fish have you caught? Again, this is not a personal attack, just the reality of the situation.
As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar.
What really bothers me, is the tendency for guides to pick up and move to a new area and start guiding right away. The movement towards MN for example. without naming names, how many of these guys had really good experience on these lakes prior to showing up there and opening up a guide business? Or how about the mn guides who are now setting up shop in Indiana and else where. Do these guys have the credentials on those bodies of water to charge people?
Take a step back and put yourself in the real world. Would you hire an investment banker to do your companies-year end audit? I doubt it.
Sorry for the rant. | |
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Posts: 2089
| Prostitute???? If I have to do THAT too, I'm raising my rates for sure. Steve | |
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Posts: 8777
| You really think the main motivation to guide is money? If that was the case nobody would do it, because you can make more money doing just about anything else.
As for "credentials", musky fishing is musky fishing, and a good guide is a good guide no matter where he is fishing. These "not naming names" guides who came to MN? Put their clients on a lot of big fish didn't they? | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | I am sorry Rob, but from reading your posts over the years, and this is trying to be constructive, you are not qualified to be a guide. How many actual fish have you caught? Again, this is not a personal attack, just the reality of the situation.
As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar.
Esox Junkie, I am always open to constructive critisim. I do not feel that you were trying to attack me in any way. I have been after musky long before I found this board. How many have I caught? I don't carry a number around in my head. I'd have to go through twelve or so year's worth of notes to know for sure.
As far as guides doing it for their financial gain, well, ya. It is their job. They go to work and get paid. Everyone needs money, that is why they call it money. I feel for you to say that is like saying a papermill worker exploits and kills trees.
I already do take kids out and teach them. My grand daughter is already casting her spincast rod with some accuracy (she's only three, and she is getting pretty good with her bow, as well). I taught my own three kids and their friends how to fish, as well as nieces and nephews, friends kids, etc.
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| I have read alot of your posts also and I would have to agree with esox junkie......you do not have a resume to back the profession. Keep learning, keep teaching kids and over time maybe a reputation with some backing will evolve. Sounds like you have the passion, but it takes more than that! Mostly it takes experience.....hands on.....not from what you read! | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | FYGR8:
If I was to say 25% of my knowledge was book knowledge, it would not be accurate. More like 10%, mostly right from the get-go, learning the fundementals. No one was there to show me the ropes when I first started, because I knew no one personally who did fish for musky. Time on the water over the last 12 years or so is where I gained most of my knowledge, as well as fishing with guys like K-bob and Muskymaj, my wife keeping me sharp by constantly asking questions, and sharing information with fellow club members, folks on this board, and people I have met all over the state in pursuit of this fish. Do I have more to learn? Sure, we all do. Am I saying I'm a better fisherman than, let's say, you? No, because I do not know you, don't pay attention to what you have posted as to how many fish you have caught, or anyone else for that matter. So, if you judge me by how you interpret my posts, wouldn't that be just like saying "I have read all of so-and-so's articles, so now I know everything about him?
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Posts: 52
| You know I see alot of posts on this thread getting, seems to me, unfairly malicious and I think it may be some people who have thought about guiding and didn't have the self confidence. Just because they didn't have the guts to stake their livelihood on their skill at fishing doesn't mean you shouldn't. Frankly at this point if I were you I'd pay no attention to any poster who isn't a guide, and again quite frankly I'd only pay a little more to those that were!
The only person qualified to judge you are those considering hiring you. Your reputaion and networking as a painter should give you a good client base, and you could throw in a couple customs along with a days guiding. Make it a package. Good luck to you and I hope you do it. To hell with the naysayers! | |
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Posts: 52
| And another thing...
I don't like the idea that you have to be some elite super muskie ninja to be a guide. Just be upfront in your marketing about your experience level and the size and number of fish you've caught. If someone decides they want you're services they've made an informed decision. I also don't like the idea that you have to match the market as far as pricing goes. Would it be logical for lexus to tell honda "hey, you can't price that civic at 12,000$, w're trying to make a living here" a little capitalism is always a good thing...... | |
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Posts: 305
Location: Illinois | It sounds to me like you really want to give it a shot. Maybe you'll struggle. Maybe you will get better everytime out. I bet there are many guys out there who regret they never gave guiding a try. Don't be that guy. At least you'll know. I wish you good luck.
Esox Junkie wrote:
"As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar. "
Maybe you should take into account the type of pressure the guides put on a lake. Look at a guy like Mike Hulbert, who catches and RELEASES muskies everyday. How many people has he and others introduced to the sport by teaching catch and release? I would rather have new members exposed to a guides version of musky fishing than just doing it on thier own and wondering what to do with that 38 inch fish. A guide teaches more than spots. A guide teachers proper release methods, proper tools, proper line and equipment. I would venture to say that guides are responsible for a great many musky anglers fishing properly. That is not ruining and exploiting but in fact a form of conservation imo.
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I agree with Losers (even though I hate pugs). Takes a lot of guts to put yourself on a limb like this. Get the license, charge what you want, and make a go of it. If you get no takers change your tactics, get more experience, find a marketable niche.
You'll never know if you don't get off the couch. I bought a guide trip on Ebay two years ago for $65 and everyone laughed. I got there and the equipment was junk, the boat leaked....but I put my first 40" in the boat that day.
Shane | |
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| since you already have a "public" face (online, etc.) you should be prepared to have lots of people having opinions about you based on very little information. people who have never fished with you, never met you in person, etc. will have and share opinions about whether or not you're qualified to be a guide. take it for what it's worth.
it sounds as if you've already made up your mind on this, and are looking more for encouragement from people and answers to some details, than a strict answer on whether or not you should be a guide.
ok, so be a guide.
be prepared to struggle filling your guide book until your word-of-mouth reputation outreaches your online reputation. if you give clients what they hope for, they'll refer other people to you. you can't replace a recommendation from a former client...so start building a reference network. as mentioned already, this may require you to charge pretty low rates to entice people into hiring you initially.
imho, many of the best guides never discuss their prowess, fish in the boat, etc. online or anywhere else. they're too smart to bother getting into defending themselves or comparing themselves to others because they know it's unproductive. they don't have to talk themselves up because other people do that magic for them. "hey look at me, i'm good" actually turns many people off, whereas, "you should fish with John Doe" really appeals to people.
and if you want to guide a lot? my advice is to be extremely careful about what you say on the 'net. be careful about the way in which you present your public face. for guides their image/reputation is their livelihood and a few cross or foolish words can ruin that in a heartbeat. think about image. is "Priaprism" the best name for your boat? these details matter to potential clients. someone who comes off as a goofball does not inspire people to give him money.
you're a valued member of the MuskieFirst family, and personally i value having you around here, but from the business end of things? familiarity breeds contempt...everyone thinks they know everyone else online and forms those unfounded (often negative) opinions.
good luck!
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Posts: 2089
| I've been following this one for a few days. Lots of good information. The question I kept asking myself is summed up in a word. Why? Do the old "Ben Franklin Close". List the pro's and con's. List the financial ramifications.If you do decide to go for it, do lots of due diligence. Go to shows and talk to people. Lots of people. Ya gotta be a little PC or forget it. I was fortunate to have learned a ton from some of the best in the biz, and ironically it wasn't "fishing " stuff I learned."When the phone rings , answer it". Business doesn't wait. How deep do you wanna go?Put a plan together, and WRITE IT DOWN!!!!!!! Write down your goals. A book could be written on this subject. It's The Dream. Fish every day and get paid for it. If it were only that easy. Here's a scenario for ya, happened to a guy I know last season.He has some equipment issues earlier in the month and the budget gets whacked to fix things.Fast forward to the end of the month when a client has to cancel 3 days due to his wife being in the hospital.$1000 poof gone. Oh yeah, the house payment is due Monday. I think you get the picture. So much left to write, but Super Tawni is paging me to the couch.I'll get some more stuff up later. Steve | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | First off, Thanx to Even and Shane for the kind words, and the encouragement, as well as the nice things said about me by Lambeau.
Is Priapism the best name for my boat? I can only offer that it is the only word in the english language that describes the feeling i get when I look at it. Should I ever get a Tuffy, I'll be at a loss. lol.
My mind was not, or still not made up. I ended the title of the thread with "questions for established guides". Alot of great input was provided by guides, as well as those who do not. I even got a few e-mails from guides and non guides offering advice, which is awesome.
I have never really been a bragger on the boards. I have offered advice, voiced my opinions (sometimes rather abruptly), but have never been a "I've caught more fish than anyone ever" sort of guy.
I am not shrugging the controversy, because I made a few enemies here (I really should not have made some of the posts that I did in the past, especialy when drinking whiskey, lol). No one here will ever do to me what has not already been done to me before I found this board.
The only guy I had a real grudge against here was Ranger, and we are cool now.
With that having been said, here is my public apology to anyone I have wronged through my words.
Anyway, if I make a go at it and fail big time, it was only going to be additional income, and not being able to share what I love with others. I'll be out the guide's license fee, and the extra insurance for that year.
But, if it works out, I'll get to give folks the benefit of my knowledge (which is huge for me) and have a couple of bucks that I didn't before. I still have not made up my mind, but, I still have the mentality that I did when I was younger. The more people say I can't, or shouldn't, it only makes me want to do it all the more and prove them wrong! | |
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Posts: 157
Location: Wausau/Phillips WI | I'd say follow my Grandpas sage old wisdom. He told me that he'd rather hear me tell him stories about what I had done than what I wish I had done. Sounds like you've got the itch to do it so go ahead.
Maybe change your boat name. Market yourself as a guide that will teach people how to fish until you get a reputation for putting fish in the boat. I'm sure there's people out there looking to learn the ropes but don't want to spend a couple of hundred dollars, but would hire a guide (teacher) for a more reasonable amount. Raise your fees as your client base and reputation grows.
I never officially guided but years ago when I fished heavily in Vilas County I kept getting asked to take friends of my parents out on differant lakes. I probably took out about 30 over about a 4 year period. Most were really inexperienced and just wanted to catch their first muskie or only have a follow. A few were really good muskie guys that wanted to learn some of the lakes I fished a little better. These experienced guys I really enjoyed in that they learned from me but more importantly I learned some stuff from them too and we had some real success.
What made me stop was when I took a husband and wife out for an afternoon trip from 1 to 5. At 1:45 the wife had to go to the bathroom so I got out the TP and headed for shore. She refused to go in the woods and this is a lake with no cottages or resorts. Her husband insisted I pull over to the landing and take her to a Bar 4 miles away. I tied my boat to a tree and locked up my tackle and we jumped in my truck to make what I thought would be a 15 minute run. BIG MISTAKE! We got to the Bar, she headed to the can, he ordered drinks. Then she ordered some more. Then some more. I couldn't get them to leave so at 4:00 I left them there and went and got my boat. I got back there at 4:45 and tried to get them to leave and finally at 8 pm I gave up and went to my parents place. At 1 AM they called for a ride and I hung up the phone.
Good luck!
Buddy | |
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Posts: 117
Location: Northwest Wisconsin | Life is too short, you only get one shot at it. If you have the dream and desire to pursue guiding, by all means give it a try. If it works out, great. If not, at least you tried. When you are on your death bed looking back on your life at least you won't have any regrets about it. I say go for it and best of luck! | |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | Do it | |
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| I think I heard that Joe Bucher's father told him not to be a Guide because he wouldn't make it!
The rest is History. | |
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| You can get your money's worth and then some on TEN fishless muskie days with a good guide on certain water. You'll learn his spots, why he or she does what they do, see the right gear to use and learn a lot about fishing for muskies in general. It's all entirely relative to the type of water. You pay a guy three hundred dollars to walk you around a stocked lake that's measured in acres and he can't get it done, that's one thing. You hire a guy on a huge, complex, potentially dangerous patch of trophy water where densities are low and timing, spots, safe navigation and other tougher nuts to crack are in the mix, that's totally different. Establishing client expectations+goals at the outset is important. Some lakes out there anyone can be a musky ninja on (too funny ha ha!) others, you're investing $$ in a lot more than simnply setting the hook in someone else's boat on someone else's spot. The point about the hunt is also very well taken. Never used a guide, never had any remote desire to. I'll try and find them, I'll try and figure it out. I have no problem with my learning curve the way it is. Success is that much sweeter when it happens, and I lose nothing when I strike out. Maybe a bit of boat gas. Paying to fish another guy's spots??!! I'll pass. In no way am I saying that guiding's bad or people who fish with guides are bad. Different strokes, different folks is all. I hope you get up and running well if you decide to take the plunge, muskynightmare. Great thread from all the contributors, many good angles. | |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | To be honest some people just rent the "BOAT" not the guide........If you don't have a boat it is worth spending some $$$ to get on the water if you do not have buddies with a boat.... | |
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Posts: 350
Location: WESTERN WI | Why not?
Anyone who has made a lot of mistakes, in a very specific line of work is considered an expert in their field. We have times in our lives were we put ourselves in a vulnerable position. When we do that, regardless of the outcome you come away being a stronger individual. To date some of my greatest acheivements in my life thus far, (professional and personal) have come when I stuck myself into the line of fire. More often than not the reward was reaped. There is a lot than can be offered to this sport as a guide, and I feel your arsenal would generate guiding business for you. I think you already know what you would like to do Rob and I commend you. As gtaggart mentioned, the worst emotion to live with is regret. Good Luck!
"There are risks and costs to a program of action, but they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of comfortable inaction.” – John F. Kennedy
Edited by Got Esox? 4/12/2007 9:00 AM
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Posts: 5874
| I've been sitting here reading this thread, and I have a few observations.
To esux angler, I totally disagree with your union perspective, and controlling guide fees based on some subjective standard. If Rob decides to start guiding, his fee will be what the market will bear. That could be $100 or $400 per day. It will all depend on how busy he will be.
As for having an appreticeship program to lead to a journeyman guide status? Well, let me just say that my house was wired by a union contractor. They used the absolute cheapest materials, took longer to do it, and the work is subpar. Journeyman status doesn't mean quality. I wish my GC had used an independant, like the other trades he used.
As for those who have determined that Rob is not qualified? You base that on what? His posts on here? The fact that he has somewhat objectionable name on his boat? That because he only caught 4 fish or whatever last year? I don't know Rob that well, but I probably know him better than most commenting here. Here is what I do know. He's a genuine guy, that would do anything he could to help a person out. He has a passion for fishing, and appears to love kids and showing how to do things. I don't have a clue how he is in the boat, or if he knows anything about guiding for muskies, or walleyes. But what does it matter?
If Rob wants to start up a guide practice, I say go for it. As mentioned, don't be one of those that wished he had tried something. He will either be successful, or not. He will grow his business on his abilities to teach, his personality, and then his success on putting clients on fish. His reputation will spread by word of mouth, like most guides, more than on how many fish he catches. There is more to guiding than catching fish.
As for how busy he will be? I remember when Capt Extreme began guiding. He wasn't real busy, and didn't charge what I thought was enough. He gave away free trips if a client didn't score. He beat himself up about this, but he endeavorred to perservere. In a short couple of years, his schedule got busier and busier, he was able to charge a fair(to him, and his clients) price, and he has a very successful guiding practice today. It's hard to get out just to fish with him anymore! Through it all, he never lost faith in his abilities, learned his home water better than anybody, improved his boatside manner, and now, his clients pretty much all say great things about him.
So this is why I say go for it Rob. You'll either slowly build your guide practice up, or you won't. It all in your hands, for the most part. Do the little things you talk about, be personable, and learn as you go. No guide ever started out knowing everything. If you're smart, you'll learn as you go, you'll improve, word will get out, and you'll be OK. Or not. But either way, you'll never say I wish I would have tried this.
Good luck.
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Well said Shep. | |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shep, great perspective.
I started giuding when I was 22 years old. I had quite a few folks ask if I wasn't too young, and many questioned my experience. exactly what Shep suggested happened to me as my regular clients returned and word spread about the Muskies in Oneida County.
Rob, you have the perfect personality to guide/instruct. I'd say go for it! | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Thanx Guys! | |
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Posts: 110
Location: Albertville, Minnesota | From Buddy's post...."I'd say follow my Grandpas sage old wisdom. He told me that he'd rather hear me tell him stories about what I had done than what I wish I had done. Sounds like you've got the itch to do it so go ahead."
Great advice...I heard that also.
The other saying that caught my attention is...."How does a musky fisherperson become a millionaire?...Start with 2 mill." Luv it.
Right there tells me most of these guys do it for the thrill of the hunt, to be on the water, and pass on the knowledge.
Have fun with it man.
Chris
Edited by Serpant 4/12/2007 9:52 AM
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Posts: 2089
| If you really want to do it, then by all means do it and do it right.I know a guy who had dabbled in guiding very part time, and due to some life changing circumstances(divorce), decided it was time to chase the "Dream".He gave himself a 2 year time frame to "get it done".He poured everything he had into it, including a lot of time , money and sacrafice. He told himself , at the end of 2 years, he would sit back and take an honest assessment. Well, with the help of a lot of people along the way, this guy has turned the Dream into reality. It CAN be done. Motivate yourself to succeed and you will. Good luck! Steve
"Success is my only %^%$#@ option, failure's not"-E | |
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | esox junkie - 4/11/2007 3:47 PM
I have been reading this post for some time now. For me personally, a guided fish I caught would not be as rewarding as catching one on my own, therefore I would never hire one. This is musky fishing, part of the excitement is the hunt, the thrill of figuring it out.
I am sorry Rob, but from reading your posts over the years, and this is trying to be constructive, you are not qualified to be a guide. How many actual fish have you caught? Again, this is not a personal attack, just the reality of the situation.
As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar.
What really bothers me, is the tendency for guides to pick up and move to a new area and start guiding right away. The movement towards MN for example. without naming names, how many of these guys had really good experience on these lakes prior to showing up there and opening up a guide business? Or how about the mn guides who are now setting up shop in Indiana and else where. Do these guys have the credentials on those bodies of water to charge people?
Take a step back and put yourself in the real world. Would you hire an investment banker to do your companies-year end audit? I doubt it.
Sorry for the rant.
If you ran for President I would vote for you.
Great post | |
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Posts: 8777
| I think we've touched on a few key points:
1. A good guide has to be a good fisherman.
Since nobody will ever agree on what that is, the only way to know is an honest self assessment.
2. Being a good fisherman doesn't make you a good guide. Being a good fisherman and having the right personality does. Again, honest self assessment time, nobody else but you knows if you have the personality for it.
3. You have to love guiding to be a musky guide. (There is a difference between loving fishing and loving guiding)
4. If you doubt any of the above, maybe you aren't ready. Doubting how it will turn out is one thing, but if you are doubting your abilities its something you should take a long look at.
5. Listening to the the advice of people who have something against guiding, or something against you personally, or just have no idea what they are talking about is not in your best interest. No matter who you are somebody who has probably never met you will find something bad to say about you. | |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Phish Killer and Junkie,
What possible difference does your comment about guides moving about the country make? Most of them are very, very accomplished anglers, and rapidly adjust to new water and situations. I'd hire Lee Tauchen no matter WHERE he fishes. What, a Guide has to be some ancient old dust farting relic anchored to a couple local lakes to know how and where to catch muskies?
If one has the talent and decides to try one's hand at any trade, that's the way it is here in the good old USA. ANYONE fishing is exploiting the resource, and that's a fact. The guide gets paid to teach, show the water and good areas to others, and to entertain those who have selected to hire him/her. I get weary of the MINE! MINE! MINE! sentiment, especially when it's thinly veiled with irrelevant accusations.
A large part of any local economy for lodging, sports shops, and other local business welcome guides, big time. I won't even begin to talk about the trickle down throughout the entire industry for tourism, and all other businesses and entities associated with that water, all the way to the DNR, but I'd suggest you look at the debate over competitive angling in Wisconsin for a taste of that.
I don't recall the question asking if you 'like guides'. If I listened to your self proclaimed 'rant', I'd have never tried Guiding, and talking about trickle down effect; MuskieFIRST wouldn't exist. | |
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Posts: 8777
| "What, a Guide has to be some ancient old dust farting relic to know how and where to catch muskies?"
Post of the day right there...
Although I admit, it is a bit odd hearing a phrase such as that coming from someone with what appears to be a wooden nickel in their profile picture
Edited by esoxaddict 4/12/2007 2:32 PM
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I agree! "I cant see where to cast, your dust farts are clouding up the whole lake!" | |
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Posts: 194
Location: Lincolnshire, IL | I think what I like most about Shep's post was his abilty to reference a quote from THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES. "Endeavor to Perservere" -Chief Dan George
But wasn't the Character Lone Watie actually quoting Abraham Lincoln? I can't remember..... | |
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Posts: 434
Location: searchin for 50 | JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You will find out soon enough if you are cut out to be a guide. Remember to take the grain of salt everyday too. Your gonna need it.  People will be people. Once you get that first Muskie for a client it should be all down hill after that. Just remember you can't make them bite!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by Raider150 4/12/2007 1:01 PM
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Thanx to everyone, for everything. Picking up a guides license in a week or two!
Rock on Wayne, Rock on Garth! | |
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| As others have said you will want to get the right insurance should a mishap occure. Usually the insurance will run app. 500 per year. | |
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| I think that if you have to ask the question - you've already answered it.
Musky guiding is tough - the grind of maintaining and cleaning equipment and boat - the late nights and early mornings. Getting to bed in June or July at 11:30 p.m. and getting up and back at it at 3:30 a.m. is the part most people don't think about. Two key elements to being a successful guide is Passion and Personality. Clients should arrive as customers and leave as friends. Good practice for this would be to be a bartender for awhile - great guide training for people skills.
Get good insurance and a great tax accountant - don't skimp on these.
Your equipment will be scrutinized - use the best.
Have a very, very understanding woman - a successful career woman - even better.
The multi - species angle works well. Some clients just want muskies - others just want a bend in the rod. If you can put clients on Walleye, Bass Pike etc. every time out - they will have a good time and come back.
Numbers are nice but boat some over 50" and you will be validated.
Word of mouth is the best advertising - If you catch 'em - they will come.
Kevin Moore
Muskies etc. Guide Service
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Thinking of hanging the shingle, questions of established guides