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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I have some from Brad Hoppe, but if anyone else has pics of muskies with spear scars post them here and I'll take it from there.
Nothing like having a few more bullets in the gun. |
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Posts: 93
Location: Minneapolis, MN | I think this is a healed spear mark. Poor devil also got bit pretty good. Anyway it came from a spearing lake so I'd guess that's what it was.
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Posts: 3147
| Ive already ran this by some people who say good idea
but dont look past the obvious
no reason an org cant be formed
"Sportsman for responsible spearing management"
anybody ambitious and have time????
Edited by happy hooker 3/28/2007 8:31 AM
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Include the lake it was from as well. |
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | what do others think...is this the time to wage a multi front "war"? with whats going on with stocking and this new group maybe its not the best time to take on the spearing assoc as well.
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Shawn the guys from the Vikingland chapter have some pics of fish speared in Miltona.
I think what we need is to have the people of MN start to champion for bigger pike in this state. There a ton of anglers out there that want to catch big pike, they just aren't there (with a few expceptions) to be caught.
Special regs are working wonders in several lakes in MN, but spearers oppose any kind of slot etc. because it essentially eliminates spearing on those lakes.
There a lot more "general" anglers out there than spearers or muskie guys, they would be the ones to get to change things in regards to pike management.
With the general public, pike regs, and I think someday spearing regs could be changed, but it's a crappy battle to fight on our own.
JS |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | We're on the same page John.
Do you're people have the ones that Hoppe and Kimm had or are they different?
-S |
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| I feel this is the wrong direction to go. We do not want to go to war with the spearing groups. They fairly or unfairly view muskie fisherman as the sole group trying to limit their favorite sport. They are better organized than we are and are much more politically savvy (they have booths at almost all county fairs in central MN). If it comes to a war they will win or we will both lose.
The spear groups are not our enemy anyway. It is a small group, yes the leader of this group makes spearing decoys as a hobby. But this does not make people who spear our foe. We need to work together with spear groups. Some in the spearing community hate us because 20 years ago muskie fisherman fought to have no spearing in lakes stocked with muskies. I feel this was a mistake and kind of elitist of us - almost as if we were saying that if spearing was allowed on a muskie lake either spearers would illegally spear muskies on purpose or they would be too stupid to tell the difference between muskies and northern. If I was a spearer who legally pursued his sport as the vast majority of them do, that would piss me off. I would fight against the muskie anglers every chance I got and that in a nut shell is what has happened in the past.
If we want more lakes stocked with muskies we need to work together with everyone involved - the lake associations, community groups, and local spear groups. I believe one of the keys to getting new lakes stocked-especially in central MN- is to assure the spear groups new lakes stocked with muskies will not be closed to spearing. Will we lose a few fish to a spear -probably but we will loose more fish to fish that are kept or miss handled by bass and walleye guys . Or mishandled by muskie anglers. I see the pictures form Miltona and it frustrates me. I am really disappointed that Gull will not go through this year. Going to war is not the answer. We need to develop reasonable and well thought out plan for future stocking efforts.
Brett Jagodzinski
Stocking chair
St. Cloud Muskies inc. |
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| If we want more lakes stocked with muskies we need to work together with everyone involved...
Will we lose a few fish to a spear -probably but we will loose more fish to fish that are kept or miss handled by bass and walleye guys. Or mishandled by muskie anglers...
We need to develop reasonable and well thought out plan for future stocking efforts
that's an extremely interesting and rational perspective from the stocking chair of one of the Muskies Inc groups closest to some of this controversy.
i won't rehash some of what's been said on this site about it earlier this year, other than to say that if you can convince others that both of your goals are easier to realize by working together, you'll both be better off.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32... |
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Posts: 175
| I don't think it is fair to categorize the spearing interests as a small group. There are more MN Darkhouse members than MN MI members by a significant margin. We know there are more muskie guys than MI members, but until there is a documented survey, they win.
We need to play the political game, as do they. My take so far, they are better organized, they are willing to spend time, talent and treasure on their goals. Muskie guys as a whole are not.
If this is offensive, sorry. When was the last time you contacted your state legislator on muskie related issues? The Darkhouse Association members do so regularly. |
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| I hate to hijack a good thread but I think it is important to point out that this subject is a very good example of why it is important to join Muskies, Inc. There are fequently discussions on this and other boards inquiring about whether or not to join. Many argue MI doesn't do much at the International level and there is some truth to that but what is being done locally is critical to the future of this sport. We all know there is a low percentage of MI members compared to total muskie anglers. IF we would all join MI, regardless of what International does or doesn't do, we would finally have a strong voice of large numbers to be heard in the conservation community instead of always having to concede battles to larger groups. |
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| Am I sencing the same frustrations in Minnesota that us Wisconsinites have been dealing with since the mid 80's?????? It's a no win battle folks, ya just have to deal with it.
Mr Musky |
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| Am I sencing the same frustrations in Minnesota that us Wisconsinites have been dealing with since the mid 80's?????? It's a no win battle folks, ya just have to deal with it.
the issues are quite different to my way of understanding.
rights granted by treaties between sovereign governments (United States and Native American tribes) are very different than rights given to individual citizens through legislation (individuals and the State of MN).
the latter kind are much easier to change. so even though philosophically i disagree with some of the efforts to limit spearing in MN, i recognize that it's much more realistic for organized efforts to change the situation there...if there is real and compelling evidence to support the idea that pike spearing is having a meaningful negative impact on trophy muskie populations.
i'm not yet convinced that it is, but i'm open to the possibility and waiting for something compelling to show up. you've got to be able to convince and activate your own support group if you ever hope to convince others outside of it...
and as strategy, are pictures of spear marks on _surviving_ fish really the evidence you want to use that spearing is killing muskies?
think about it.
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Posts: 100
| Spear mark or freeze brand im not sure, what do you think?
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Location: The Yahara Chain | MuskyTrap - 3/29/2007 11:56 AM
Spear mark or freeze brand im not sure, what do you think?
It looks like a prop injury to me. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Brent, they're saying to our face that 1. muskies ARE NOT under any circumstances being speared. 2. That there people know the difference between the two when in a spear hole no mater what the water clarity and light conditions are. 3. that spearers don't go for the big ones anymore, they just go for "eaters". These are all 1/2 truths at best and if they're going to go around selling it as the truth then I'm going to be standing there with the evidence that says they're either mistaken or outright lying.
I've sat in too many meetings with these guys telling them we're not trying to take away their spearing opportunities. George and I have stressed that over and over and over again, only to have the DHF (not just Kirk, but all the leadership that's bothered to attend) throw monkey wrenches into what we're doing and going behind our backs and over our heads. We've made compromises with the spearers and they still are working against us. We've been accommodating with our new proposals and they go over the DNR Fisheries head and hold secret meetings that get our efforts stopped dead in their tracks. We've been trying to work with them and the fact is the leadership of the DHF doesn't want to work with us. A HUGE case in point is how they did an end-around and got French Lake un-designated even after the DNR decided to keep it the way it was after the public hearing.
You say we don't want to start a war with the spearers, but from my perspective they started one already.
Edited by Muskie Treats 3/29/2007 3:07 PM
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| I don't know much about spearing groups, as there are virtually none in Indiana where I live, but I am surprised to hear that there are more spearers than muskie fishermen in minnesota. I know it is an old tradition, but since I don't see any national tv shows or magazines featuring spearing, it really is amazing to me that they have more presence than the muskie fishermen in their respective areas. But even if they do outnumber the muskie fishermen, do many people from other parts of the country travel there to spear fish? Doesn't seem likely to me. But I know a lot of people travel to minnesota and the northern lakes to FISH for muskies and other species. So as far as that goes it would seem muskie fishermen would have the upper hand getting their way with the government, or at least, you would think that they would, considering that tourism is a huge source of revenue most states, and a big force in driving public policy and oppinion. |
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| A review of history would suggest that going after spearing and spearers is possibly the worst thing that muskie fishers could do.
The Dark House Assoc formed because of the initial spearing ban on muskie lakes. An MI member told a group of spearers that (I'm paraphrasing), if they could not accept a ban a select lakes, they would go to the legislature and have all spearing banned. The next day, the Mn Dark House Association was formed.
Not only do they have more members than the Mn MI group, they have more members than all of MI combined. Last I checked, they had more members than the number of darkhouse licenses that were sold.
They also are pretty savvy fundraisers and lobbyists. They have convinced rural legislators that Mn resort communities would wither and die without all the money that spearers bring in. To hear them tell it, they bring in as much, if not more money than snowmobilers.
If you look at the numbers, every year, the number of dark house spearing licenses sold decreases. It seems to me that if muskie folks could keep their big traps shut for a few years, spearing will die out on it's own. Keep poking them with a stick and they will never go away.
It's a gut feeling on my part, but I would bet that more muskies are killed by inexperienced anglers every year than by spearers.
Tom B |
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Location: Owatonna,MN | Tom B,
No one is poking a stick at anyone. We formed a Muskies Inc. Chapter in southern MN. and all the sudden here they come. Like Shawn said you work things out with the Darkhouse assoc. and they go behind backs and sneak things in. I have nothing against people spearing pike but to block us from trying to get more than ONE muskie lake down here is getting frustrating.
More money brought in than snowmobilers?? Really, really doubt that. Not even close!! |
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| Scott Webster - 3/29/2007 9:19 PM
More money brought in than snowmobilers?? Really, really doubt that. Not even close!!
I doubt it to, but to listen to the legislators, that is the impression that I get. Why?? Because that is what they and their supporters tell legislators. They also tell them that muskie fishers are out to kill their sport.
This kind of goes back to a meeting in St Cloud over 10 years ago where a group of MIers and a group from the Darkhouse association were told to hammer out a compromise on some slot lakes and spear ban extensions.
There was also a legislative aid and a DNR official at the meeting.
After some contentious discussions, we came up with a good compromise. Went to the DNR (I did) and was told that the DNR was expecting MI to stick by their ban extensions and that we were also not to propose any spearing slots.
That blew the deal. The spearers believed that an older member of MI was responsible for the breakdown (far from the truth, he helped put it together) and the DNR would not say publicly that they killed the deal, they wanted MI to take the heat.
In the end, the St Cloud chapter did not support the DNR proposal and then in an interview with a writer from Duluth (later the article was picked up by the AP and printed in the Mpls paper) the DNR official said they had the support of all MI chapters except the St Cloud chapter.
I was president of the chapter at the time and felt that we had stuck our necks way out only for the DNR to cut our head off.
So, to say that the Darkhouse guys came out of nowhere to ambush MI is ignoring what appeared to be MI's attempts to ambush them 10+years ago.
I am sure that the darkhouse guys look at any attempt to limit spearing as a foot in the door towards a total statewide ban.
Annnnd, you know how they get their impressive numbers???? Everyone that attends their banquets becomes a member.
Tom B |
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| More money brought in than snowmobilers?? Really, really doubt that. Not even close!!
in the world of public policy-making, perception IS reality.
even if there are actually less people spearing pike than fishing muskies in MN, if the advocacy groups are able to convince state lawmakers of the economic and social importance of their position they will get their way.
it's not a matter of the reality of "who's more important" socially or economically to the state. it's a matter of who is more effective at presenting their position and convincing others to believe in that position.
if your opponent holds the high ground (ie., is more politically savvy and organized), is charging into a head-on fight the best strategy? the moral "right" is irrelevant in the world of subjective politics.
in some areas, trashing pike spearing is akin to burning a flag - you're tromping on the emotions people have about these traditions. imho, that's a risky proposition that could backfire like it has in the past.
the organized pike spearing groups see the organized muskie groups as a threat...why do you think that is? what would happen if their perception of muskie groups changed? how might you affect that change?
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Lambeau, please read my responses. We've been TRYING to work compromise with these people. We've even come to compromise at the table only for them to go behind our backs and the backs of the DNR and destroy all the work we all COLLECTIVELY worked on.
I'm not planning on taking them head on. There's WAY too much apathy in the muskie community to be able to make it work and I don't want to have by boat shot-up. I'm just stick of them getting all the punches in against the muskie folks lately w/o having something to fire back with. |
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| Lambeau, I think you "get" what I am saying.
For every photo of a muskie with spear marks, spearers could hold up 100 photos of muskie guys holding muskies up by the gills, the "death grip." Then they could add all the opinions of how experts believe that the death grip probably does cause some delayed mortality. Then all of a sudden, you have a group of spearers with a pretty good case that muskie guys are killing ALOT more muskies than spearers.
Tom B |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | All of which is irrelevant IMO. What is relevant is that Muskie anglers want more lakes stocked, and a very small opposition group managed to throw a wrench into those hopes.
I'll say it once more and then back off, IMHO the best way to get this issue pointed to resolution is to get the facts, political and otherwise, out to the public; no slant to either side of the issue. It's a bit tougher to look into a camera and be less than up front, and it's much harder to use political sniper tactics when the public and the State DNR can see all the parties involved clearly.
Something about the keyboard being mightier than the sword....
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| Lambeau, please read my responses. We've been TRYING to work compromise with these people. We've even come to compromise at the table only for them to go behind our backs and the backs of the DNR and destroy all the work we all COLLECTIVELY worked on.
I'm not planning on taking them head on. There's WAY too much apathy in the muskie community to be able to make it work and I don't want to have by boat shot-up. I'm just stick of them getting all the punches in against the muskie folks lately w/o having something to fire back with.
i know you have Treats, and i think you should be recognized and applauded for trying to do something about a situation that you think needs to change.
as you know, i'm not convinced that it's as a big of a problem as you think it is, but that doesn't impact my belief that you're trying to do something good for the muskie resource.
you've tried to work with them, but your experience has been that they outmaneuvered you in a way that felt false and underhanded. lesson learned.
imho, it presents you with a couple of options: a) stop trying to cooperate with them and fight for what you want in spite of them, or b) be more effective at convincing them that you have shared goals worth cooperating on, or c) find some other bigger/stronger/better partner to team up with.
in the first case they've shown an ability to organize and act in a way which is more effective than muskie groups are able to muster.
the second case is a matter of removing their motivation to backstab and undermine your cooperation on shared issues. use a critical eye to identify the barriers to cooperation and address them first - some of them might be issues that need addressing on the muskie side of things, some on the pike spearing side - then try to work together once the motivation is shared in a real way.
as for the third, are lots of eelpout being incidentally speared? maybe you could call on the Minnesota Bar to help? (get it? lawyerfish...? sigh.)
Edited by lambeau 3/30/2007 7:41 AM
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | treats,
perhaps the thing to be asking for instead of pictures is input on why they darkhouse assoc is so much more politically savvy and connected. maybe the thing to be asking is why people in leadership positions in the muskie world do as much or more to alienate their own "constituents" than to garner much needed support. if actions being taken and things said antagonize the very people who support the basic idea of what your striving for and have put much effort into, maybe the course of action is the wrong one?
as i've mentioned to you before, i declined to renew my membership in M.I. after comments you made about Ducks Unlimited being anti musky and that members of that organization were "no friend to muskies". as a member of that group since the greenwing days, i found that offensive and decide if i was no friend to the muskie than M.I. surely didnt need my $$. (i've since decided that served no useful purpose, so i will be re joining on an unaffiliated level.) those comments were made in a thread on the 101 board about the spearing proposal for french lake. their were comments in that thread that gave the appearance that ALL musky anglers regarded ALL spearers as outlaw poachers with a blood lust to stick anything and everything that swam through the hole. there were even comments made that if spearing was approved certain individuals would kill every musky they could and "LEAVE THE SPEARERS NOTHING TO SPEAR...THAT I PROMISE". tell me how that makes "us" look if members of the darkhouse asoc happened to be reading, or even employees of the DNR? i felt that was a bad message to be sending, and apparently others feel the same. to make blanket statements and unfounded accusations is really no different on "our" part than what the anti musky groups try and do to us is it?
i've refrained from posting this until now as i feel somewhat guilty for speaking about it when i do believe you are putting in a great deal of time and effort and proceeding in the way you feel best. its just at times it seems as if you have a very bush-esque(maybe gotti-esque) style of leadership, which perhaps isnt the best approach at a time when we could really use more allies.
Edited by castmaster 3/30/2007 8:22 AM
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I appreciate the feedback. |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | treats,
if you find some extra time, please send me an email giving a brief history of what efforts have been made and how the darkhouse assoc has back doored those attempts. one of the local reps here in Hastings sits on teh house natural resources committee. i will get in contact with him and discuss these issues and see what can be done to at least get one strong ally on "our" side in the natural resources committee.
also if you have any info on what legislators are "in the pocket of" the darkhouse assoc please post that info. maybe some effort could be used to shine a light on behind the scenes dealings as others have suggested.
what can be done to survey resorters, hotels/motels, dining/drinking establishments etc to get a picture of exactly which group is bringing in more in regards to tourism etc. i'd be happy to try and put some sort of printed survey together if you could use your position to spread it throughout MN's M.I. chapters to be distributed on a local level, or is that something that would fall on deaf ears? i find it VERY hard to believe that spearing brings in the same, let alone more, economic revenue than musky angling does. |
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| The problem, as I see it, is that muskie supporters are following the rules, everyone else is not.
In the 90's (Dave Overland and/or Robb Kimm would know exactly when), the legislature passed a resolution that the DNR would take care of these kinds of things without interference from the legislature. NI, the spearers and others are going to the legislature and forcing the DNR to go "their way" through legislative mandate.
Frank Schnieder predicted this very thing many years ago when he proposed that MI support a lobbyist that would be a voice for muskie fishers at the legislature.
It would appear that the solution would be to either get the legislature to follow their own rules or get a lobbyist.
Tom B |
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Posts: 8776
| I realize its michigan
But look closely at the pictures
http://www.midarkhouse.org/photoalbum/ragan_harley_musky_2001.htm |
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| But look closely at the pictures
for what exactly?
it's legal to spear muskies in Michigan.
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | MI can't get a lobbiest due to the fact that we're a 401C3 non-profit organization. However the MMA is not a 401C3 and CAN get a lobbiest. That's one issue we've been debating as to whether we'd see a payoff if we got a lobbiest. The big thing is that we need to get some people well versed in the political arena or get in good with a "pro muskie" politician. It's a hard and time consuming game to learn much less excel. We need that presence badly since Frank's passing.
A survey has already gone out to the anglers that purchased fishing licenses that inquires about their muskie fishing habits. There's a whole series of questions concerning our spending habits. I had to blush when I filled mine out. Needless to say I've put myself on credit hold for the next couple months be create a better balance in my spending.
Castmaster, drop me a line @ [email protected]. I've got some emails I can send you. |
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| I don't see any proof that those pictures weren't taken in MN |
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| Heres the bad news Treats the DNR has seen all the pics, and in this Atomic age of digital photography pictures are worthless, in talking to a gentlemen that brought some pics to them, they say they could be altered, they need a body of evidence, this is particularly important on a lake that most want to run from and thats French, if you are on that lake and catch a fish that has been poked call the DNR office in Watertown immediately and tell them you want to talk to Hugh,Mark or a CO, and find out if they want it dead if it's a legal, or if they will come out to view it in a live well for release, they may have a problem with that too who knows, we need to show that the lifting of this spearing ban is causing damage, if it is, thats why we asked for a spring 2008 survey and increased patrols on and around spearing opener, they want our designated lakes, they want to kill all the trophy Pike and have a proven method in Rep Brode from New Prague, I'll just bet they try for a biggie this May, who is watching the gate this year, Ive looked through some of the proposed bills but it takes allot of time, is there a way or is the Fish and Wildlife Legislative Alliance looking for bills with spearing issues coming across the table. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | The DNR is looking into it right now. I was trying to contact Erv, but the email I have for him is no good. If you have his contact info send it over. I'd like to have a talk with him and stress that if they try to undesignate the lakes like they did last year they're going to be taking a HUGE step in the wrong direction and could even end up with both of our clubs wasting out time fighting each other instead of doing something productive. |
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| I'll get it and call ya but I bet ya they are going for it on a big lake |
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| And what exactly do you hope to accomplish with pictures of muskies that are caught by anglers with spear marks? That's the same old tired argument that's been whined about in Wisconsin by walleye and musky anglers alike.
All it proves is that if a mistake is occasionally made by a spearer of any nationality, the musky (or walleye in Wisconsin's case) will have a good chance at healing and living out it's life normally. By collecting those pictures you are providing even more evidence that the spearers are not hurting much of anything, which they aren't.
It's quite likely that MI members probably kill more muskies each year from delayed mortality or fishing in water that's too warm than are accidentally (or purposely) killed by spearers. It's very evident that musky anglers are the ones who started the animosity, and now that it's backfiring in their face they still fail to realize they simply need to let it go and back off.
The earlier analogy was very accurate. If you poke a bees nest with a stick, the bees will get mad and come out looking for a fight. If you leave that bees nest alone, you and the bees peacefully cooexist and rarely if ever bother each other. |
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | Treats,
sent you an email, maybe it got blocked by your spam blocker or something?
anyway you can email me at [email protected] |
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