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| I have a Martin Rebel recurve, one of those little guys, and have it rigged for bowfishing. After MANY misses, I've started to get it right. Went wading along the shore and nailed 3 tonight, biggest was almost as long as the arrow, maybe 10 pounds. A buddy and I speared 4 a couple nights ago.
So, I'm slimed, though muskie season doesn't open here until May.
I'm killing the fish based on the premise that they are bad for the lake, i.e., they reduce the quality of walleye, bass and other gamefish populations. Would you agree with this? I'm a little concerned that I'm not doing anything useful, just killing innoncent critters. If I'm not helping the lake then I'm going to stop. What do you think? |
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Location: Marshfield, WI | Last summer, I was talking to a guy that said he kills every dogfish he catches. He either slits their throat and throws them back or throws them on shore for the birds. He said the same thing as you about them eating all the other fish. He also said the same thing for pike, about them eating up all the perch and everything. He eats those though, doesn't just kill them like the dogfish. Day after he told me that, I had a 40" dogfish follow a musky bait in.
Krishna |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | I would advise not to throw them back into the lake after killing them, the tickets my son and friends got were expensive. |
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| I suspect it's the same bs that people say about muskies eating all the gamefish in a lake. Personally I think dogfish are pretty cool... I've even caught one figure 8'ing a bucktail! |
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Location: Marshfield, WI | yup, probably not a good idea to throw them back in the lake. I think that is what the guy did though. That same day I saw the 40" I had a smaller one hit a hounder on a fig-8. Just as we got the net ready it shook off. Probably 28" or so.
Krishna |
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Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | kill them and feed them to your cats, bury them in the garden, whatever. Especialy if go to boom lake. There have been days where they would not leave my bucks alone. Think of them as out of state jet skiers, and treat them accordingly. |
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| A local lake I fish with bowfin in it has a very healthy population of bass and pike so i dont really think they are harming the other gamefish or panfish. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Bowfin/doffish do compete with game fish populations. |
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Location: The desert | They most likely do compete, but is all competition bad? Do we know that they out compete game fish? I'm not really for killing things merely for the sake of killing. The argument of 'they are competing with all my game fish' sounds similar to the anti musky crowds argument that they are eating all 'their' walleyes (which is false). Just playing devils advocate a bit. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I didn't say 'out compete'.
Dogfish are a rough fish.
They do compete with game fish.
There's a difference between that and the 'muskies eat my walleyes' talk.
Gar are a rough fish, and a favorite target for bowfishermen. Ranger, shoot carp if you are worried about it. |
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Posts: 3863
| Hmmm... Pride, "killing them for the sake of killing them" is all I'm doing if I'm not helping the lake.
Tonight, I'm going to have to wade out and gather up the dead fish because they are indeed laying on the lake bottom. I conked them on the head while on the arrow/spear and then heaved them out as deep as I could, which is not very far. They sink to the bottom and considering our clear water I suspect every one can be seen from the shoreline.
So far, opinion leans toward leaving the dogfish alone. What do others think? |
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Ranger, Have fun! If the MI DNR thought it was detrimental to the fisheries it would be illegal. You may want to consider using them for something other than lake fertilizer. Perhap's as fertilizer for your favorite potted plants.
I'm sure these guy's have a different perspective. Heck they even have recipes!
http://www.bowfinanglers.com/bowfininfo.html
Have fun!
Al |
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Location: MPLS, MN | Whatever suits your opinion.
I love them. 2nd favorite after Muskie. If they grew in better populations I would specifically target them over Bass ect..
Plus why kill prehistoric fish? To me that makes them very uniqe.
Edited by Obfuscate Musky 3/27/2007 8:27 AM
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| If its a non-native species that is proven to offset the balance of the ecosystem, by all means I say kill it. I'm with Ranger -- killing for the sake of killing is just plain wrong. Killing for the sake of eating is part of nature, don't have any problem with that. Killing something like carp? After seeing the damage they do to lake ecosystems, man, I have no problem spearing, shooting, gaffing, whatever-ing to get rid of them.
But back to dogfish for a minute... Steve, you said they are rough fish and they compete with gamefish... Are they detrimental to the lake ecosystem in your opinion, or just to the quality of the fishery?
(bad for the lake and bad for musky anglers aren't necessarily the same thing) |
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Location: Ogden, Ut | Why not just ask the local warden and/or biologist? They should have a handle on their relative worth in the system and how their numbers affect the balance of the fish assemblage. Also the legality of their disposal.
S. |
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| Kill them!
Why do guys post that they catch them on muskie lures and have them follow lures? Because they eat fish. Don't tell me that they don't, because I've seen them and I've caught them and have killed every one. I feel no guilt.
If I save some bedding bluegills or bass, I'm doing a good thing in my eyes.
They don't get to the size that they do by eating plankton. I see it as eliminating some of the competition. Are they a food source for other fish? Don't know.
I kill them when ever I catch them. |
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| I just read a couple of items that I searched up....Kill them!
Both articles noted that that have a voracious appetite for panfish and gamefish of all sizes and are very undesireable because of their "eating machine" way of life.
They and the Gar are the only fish left who are pretty much as they were when they were dinosaurs. They also cautioned that they eat anything and evrything, including the fingers and toes of fishermen who bring them into the boat.
They are not cosidered table fare...............so I say, Kill Them! |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | Ranger in our private lake near Paw Paw we had a Dog Fish contest because our BIO told us that they have been affecting our game and pan fish. This was 6 years ago, we opened the lake for the weekend and ran a cash tournament. Over 150 Dog fish where caught and destroyed. Over the last 6 years I have never seen bigger crappie and bass and the pike are really starting to come on, perch and blue gill are really strong too and rock bass have made and apperence. I know you and I have talk about this before when we fished together. So yes get rid of them.....
pga |
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Location: The desert | I dont disagree that they do eat other fish. And also do compete with other game species. But if you hook one, cut its throat and then toss it back whats the point? By you killing that one bowfin or gar are you going to extirpate them from your lake? Not a chance! For me I just dont see the point of killing it just to kill it. What does it benefit? How much have you changed the entire fishery?
Ranger, If you enjoy it by all means have at it. Sorno had a great idea about contacting a local manager and discuss the affects you may or may not have on the fishery. Take them home and toss them in a garden, grow yourself some big vegetables then you dont have to feel like you are wasting the fish.
Like others have said while I was writing this, if you stepped your efforts up to include multiple persons for an extended period of time you could reduce the population significantly. There you go....set up a bowfin shoot tournament and raise money for a local musky club!
Edited by Pointerpride102 3/27/2007 9:31 AM
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| Well, Mike... Every one is one less. Will you erradicate them? Not likely. But stuff like what PGA took part in certainly can make a difference. As for killing them and putting them back in the water? I wonder if feeding the crayfish is a good thing... |
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| Killing dogfish to "save a few other specimens of more desirable species" is no different than the walleye guys who apply that sentiment toward muskies. So, applying that sentiment toward muskies is wrong, but applying it toward other species is OK? I smell a double standard here. |
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Location: The desert | Jeffyd, that is sort of what I was getting at. Bowfin anglers may have the same sentiment towards muskies. Muskies compete with bowfin for the resource. Muskies compete with walleyes for the same resource, similar with Pike....quite the conundrum.
Addict, I agree, and ammended my post after reading what PGA posted while I was writing the original.....If Ranger could set something like that up with the backing of the local biologist a significant dent could be placed on the population.
Edited by Pointerpride102 3/27/2007 9:45 AM
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| Bass, northern pike and walleye compete with muskies, too. Maybe we should classify them as 'rough fish'... a completely subjective label by the way. |
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| It's no different? For one thing, the presence of muskies in the ecosystem doesn't harm the walleye population. Then there's the distinction between game fish (desireable species) and rough fish (undesireable species), and the money spent trying to build sucessful muskie populations, the fact that there are size and posession limits for muskies and not dogfish, closed seasons for muskies and not dogfish...
According to the DNR the two fish are about as different as they come. I fail to see the double standard here.
Sort of like comparing eating a burger in a restaurant to eating your neighbors labrador, isn't it?
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Location: The desert | esoxaddict - 3/27/2007 9:55 AM
For one thing, the presence of muskies in the ecosystem doesn't harm the walleye population.
Not necessarily true if they are competing for the same forage. Muskies could out eat the walleyes. But walleye is not a top forage for muskies. |
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| I suppose juvenile muskies and walleyes do compete for forage, I didn't think about that.
This is still one of my favorite quotes:
"Those stupid muskies are eating all the crappies!! I used to be able to go out on Friday and get FIFTY crappies for our fish fry! Now I'm lucky to get TEN! Stupid muskies are eating up the whole lake!"
Muskies, eatin up the whole lake, gotcha. Never met a musky with a belly like yours. And they only eat one at a time.
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Location: The desert | Right on Jeff! You get that a lot from people! My main point here was if you are going to kill the fish, at least do something with it...sure leaving it in the lake probably adds some organic matter to the lake bed and is consumed by different invertebrates, but if I were to kill them I'd find something to do with it. |
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| I will never forget this as long as I live... (THIS POST COULD BE MISINTERPRETED BY SOME AS CONTAINING RACIAL OVETONES... IT DOES NOT)
This was round about 1977 best I can remember. Those of you who remember 1977 know what cars looked like back then, imagine a gold Pontiac Bonneville, maybe 1973 or so..
We used to camp at the marina on the South end of Silver lake in Kenosha County. Every spring big schools of carp would come into the bay and the creek to spawn. We'd assign a "lookout", someone to get up about 3:00 am and check the creek. If the lookout couldn't see the bottom through the carp, that lookout had the job of waking up everyone else, and out we would come, armed with spears, hunting knives, fillet knives, bats, golf clubs, and any other weapon we could get our hands on. Sometimes they'd be so thick you could just scoop them up and toss them on shore.
This became an annual ritual, and it wasn't uncommon for us to remove 100 carp from the lake in a single night.
Because I was the kid, I was the one who had the job of scooping them all up the next morning, piling them in a wheelbarrow, and dumping them way down the railroad tracks where they could rot and stink without offending anyone.
Well this particular morning, just as I was picking up the first few, a car (the big old Gold Bonneville) drives by, stops, backs up, and this dark complected fellow hangs out the window and says:
"man... them's all cahp?!"
ME: (all wide eyed) uh huh.
HIM: (more wide eyed than me) "WHA? You... you WANT 'EM?
ME: "uhhh... no?"
HIM: "Wuh... NO?!"
ME: (staring blankly)
HIM: "we take 'em?"
ME: "uhhh, ok..."
Well, this dude and his buddy picked up every last one of them carp, threw them in the trunk of that car and drove off with the back bumper just about dragging on the ground. As they were getting back in the car the guys buddy said "man... we been fishin down the river all mornin' caught ONE CAHP, man we come by here y'all got hunnert! We gonna EAT tonight!!"
They took em, and I guess they ate 'em. Hunnert of 'em!
The moral of the story here is pretty simple, and its what Mike eluded to in his last post... No matter what it is, how nasty it is, no matter that its been dead sitting in the sun, there's somebody out there who will eat it.
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| Ok, thanks for the feedback everybody. I will contact the DNR, that's a good idea. Maybe I should mention that I'm seeing at least 30 dogfish in any 100 yard stretch of shoreline.
And I have determined a good use for the dead fish. There's this guy who borrowed $300 from me when he was in a bind. After 2 years he's paid $100 back and refuses to pay the rest. He lives in a trailer and I'm going to throw the dead dogfish on his roof. |
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Location: The desert | I guess that works, LOL! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Oh stop it, this is getting ridiculous. Double standard when considering Muskies, an extremely expensive very desirable fish to manage, LM Bass, another very desirable game fish, and panfish or Walleyes or Pike? Give me a break, those all have a limit, a season, and are protected by both. Don't try to tell me we are now to the point of CPR where we lovingly caress a dog fish or a carp, and ease it back into the water with a little kiss. PETA, anyone?? Sheesh.
Yes, the Bowfin can be beneficial in 'controlling stunting of overpopulated panfish', and might be a positive influence in some situations. On the other hand, that's because 'it inhabits waters generally populated by panfish or nongame fishes, and its performs the population control necessary to prevent stunting.'
Yes, Dogfish eat YOY and older panfish, walleyes, muskies, pike, and all other species. They eat each other too. They are, by all record I've found, voracious. They are classified as a rough fish most places and can be speared, shot with a bow, stabbed, mutilated, mangled, run over by a school bus full of 2 year old children.....
If you choose to leave them be and release them when you capture one (that's what I do),fine. But as long as the fish is classified as a rough fish, it's not protected, and one would assume there's a reason for that.
They are also a detriment to the system in that they compete for forage, with the possible exception of a controlling factor in Red Rusty infested waters. Bullheads do the same thing. If you have a large population of dog fish, that comes at the expense of gamefish species to some degree in every lake or river, that's the way it works. Will dogfish 'ruin' a Muskie/Walleye/Bass lake? I don't think so, but they sure as hell don't 'help' if those populations are in balance. I suppose Sheepshead qualify for the same classification. Carp too. |
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| sworrall - 3/27/2007 12:14 PM
They are classified as a rough fish most places and can be speared, shot with a bow, stabbed, mutilated, mangled, run over by a school bus full of 2 year old children.....
Hey Steve?
two questions:
1. What would 2 year old children be doing on a school bus? Aren't they a little young for school?
2. I know you're pretty into recording the sound of lures underwater and things of that nature. What sort of sound do you suppose it makes running over a dogfish with a bus? Would "PLOK" be a pretty good description?  |
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Location: Nowheresville, MN | Bottom line: it's your legal right to kill that fish if you want to. Maybe the point everyone is trying to make is if you do kill them don't tell anyone on the internet or do it in a fashion where other lake users see the dead fish. Although, would this not be considered wanton waste and punishable by law?
Fact is bowfin are GREAT at controlling panfish populations, and they have even been stocked into lakes by agencies to try and control panfish populations. Although in the studies I have read, the desired effect did not occur because the dogfish were not able to reproduce into large enough numbers to have an effect. |
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| You can say PETA, but I'm not drinkin' that Kool Aid you are mixing. I'm speaking of respect for all members of the aquatic community, and I also lean in favor of native species over stocked muskies. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Successful NR in numbers requires this:
'Unlike nests of sunfish or bass where the male clears a circular depression in the sand, Amia males often build nests in fibrous root mats, clearing away stems and leaves. One male may breed with two or three females. After breeding he continues to guard the nest until the young hatch eight to ten days after deposition. Baby Amia swim in schools and are protected by the male. They retain this schooling behavior until they are about 4 in long.'
Some places they will do very well, others, because of the bottom composition, they will not. |
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Location: Nowheresville, MN | Here ya go.
North American Journal of Fisheries Management 18:286–294, 1998
Effectiveness of Bowfin as a Predator on Bluegill in a Vegetated Lake
Neal D. Mundahl, Christina Melnytschuk, Deena K. Spielman, Jason P. Harkins, Kate Funk, and Andrew M. Bilicki
Department of Biology, Winona State University Post Office Box 5838, Winona, Minnesota 55987-5838, USA
Abstract.—Adult bowfins Amia calva were reintroduced (initial density approximately 32 fish/ha) into Lake Winona, Minnesota, from 1984 to 1986 to evaluate their effectiveness in controlling overabundant, stunted bluegills Lepomis macrochirus and other sunfishes (centrarchids) in a system with extensive macrophyte beds. Bowfin catch rates (trap nets, gill nets and electrofishing) declined rapidly after reintroductions ended in 1986. Catch rates and growth rates of bluegill and black crappie Pomoxis nigromaculatus have not changed since bowfin reintroduction. In 1992, only adult bowfins (average age, 10 years; average weight, 2.4 kg) were captured in Lake Winona, and they were concentrated in or near dense macrophyte beds. The final population estimate for bowfin in the west basin was 114 fish (3.17 fish/ha). Captive bowfins exhibited no size selection when feeding on sunfish and consumed on average less than 5 sunfish/24 h. Bowfin consumption rates declined by 80% when the density of artificial vegetation exceeded 500 stems/m2. Bowfins preferred both fathead minnows Pimephales promelas and virile crayfish Oronectes virilis over sunfish in prey choice trials. Lack of natural reproduction by bowfins in Lake Winona, their rapid decline in numbers after stocking, and their low rate of sunfish consumption may explain why bowfins apparently have been ineffective in controlling the lake’s bluegill population.
Received: July 11, 1997; Accepted: November 13, 1997 |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Respect? You are going to lecture me about respect for all members of the aquatic community because I think it's OK to harvest rough fish?? What about crappies? Bluegills?? I jerk those suckers out of the water by impaling a hook in their face, cut the meat off their poor, dead bodies, and cook it up in a pagan ceremony of excess. I still respect the wild and everything in it.
Who said anything about Kool Aid?
Lean in favor of Native Populations over stocked muskies? So what? Where is this mentioned in this thread? Not a logical extension of this debate. Unless you are saying we should consider fish stocked at a huge cost in this state as rough fish, too.
It's up to each of us individually to 'respect' a carp, dogfish, gar, or other rough fish. Completely subjective as a social classification as pbrostuen said, true enough, but I bet you won't find many lake associations in a hurry to stock dogfish. If I choose to Bowfish for rough fish, and put them in the garden, is that 'disrespectful'? PETA comes into the equation when NO harvest of ANY fish becomes the end game, that's a crock, a slippery slope I'll fight until I can't anymore. I'll be bowfishing for Asian Silvers this summer ( trying to hit them in the air), and intend to try canning some, I hear they are excellent. There will be a few carp on the end of the arrow, too. I'll toss those into the garden, I guess, they taste nasty. |
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| PLOK |
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Location: NE Wisconsin | Had a friend over 20 years ago, in WI ticketed by a warden for "wasting a natural resource". He was bow shooting carp and suckers. He shook one off, back into the river. A warden was watching from a park and ticketed him for wasting a natural resource. My advise would not be to kill any fish and just throw it back into the water. |
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Location: Nowheresville, MN | Putting them in the garden is using them, leaving them on the bottom of the lake is not. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Who said leaving them in the lake WAS utilizing them? Don't think I mentioned that. |
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| Read Ranger's second post to this thread. He said they were on the bottom of the lake after his actions. |
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| He's utilizing them to decorate an otherwise featureless sand bottom, and to provide food for the poor starving crustaceans.
SAVE THE CRAWDADS MY BRUTHAS, SAAAVE THE CRAWDADS!!!
Edited by esoxaddict 3/27/2007 3:04 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't think Tfs's answer was to Ranger, do you? Plus, if you read the rest of Ranger's post, he said he will go gather them up. I know Ranger, and if he says he's going to do that, he is.
Explain the difference to me. Other than the legal repercussions, what's the difference between putting them in the garden or leaving them to the crayfish and other scavengers? I promise you one thing, if a dead fish hits the bottom up here in most of the lakes, the rusty crayfish will have that sucker gone in no time at all.
By that standard, any Northern Pike you release after capture on a Muskie lure that obviously isn't going to make it should be taken in (if no size limit applies) and cleaned for food, right? Same with gut hooked small perch. And, harvest of those fish is regulated... |
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| Home from work at 1:00am and I went out to get them. Wind's blowing about 15mph and I couldn't find the fish thru the waves. 4:00am now. I'll go back out in the morning.
With the exceptions of black flies and brown recluse spiders, I respect all critters. I'm one myself.
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2:00pm: Just returned from gathering up all the fish, they were easy to find in the daylight. Checked the regs and it is indeed clearly illegal to throw the dead dogfish back into the lake. My buddy wants them for his veggie garden so they will be put to use. He'll get all of them except one. The big one is going on a trailer roof.
Edited by Ranger 3/28/2007 12:02 PM
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Location: The desert | HAHA! I'd like to hear it hit the trailer roof! |
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| Hey Ranger
Couple random thoughts, bro...
1. Smells generally travel upward, if the idea is to create a nasty stink, under is better than on top.
2. Just a thought here, but you may not want to advertise publically what your intentions are. The burden of proof is much more difficult with no prior evidence of intent.
3. Seems to me that a single dead rotting fish would be relatively easy to remove. One that was "compromised" into many small fragments, however... I can think of a few ways to accomplish that, but I'll leave that up to your imagination. |
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| I find that doe in heat buck lure poured into a cars vent air intake has a teaching quality also. |
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Location: MPLS, MN | jeffyd - 3/27/2007 9:35 AM
Killing dogfish to "save a few other specimens of more desirable species" is no different than the walleye guys who apply that sentiment toward muskies. .
Although I agree with Sworral that it's legal and people have every right to do it, I also totally agree with the above quote. |
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| I appreciate all the feedback. This was an interesting discussion/debate. Comes down to personal values to guide behavior regarding killing the dogfish. For me, the scales have tipped toward live and let live. |
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Bowfishing Dogfish - Good for the Lake?