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Posts: 7113
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | This weekend showed me and (sadly) a large number of vendors that there is a new trend in Muskie Shows: lots of lookers, seems to be less buyers. Now I might be wrong, but from my vantage point (sitting in the booth, watching and talking to many who walk by) there are less and less guys and gals walking around with bags full of new muskie baits and other goodies. For those of you who ARENT spending as much this year versus in years' past, why not?
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | For me it's the same prices in the stores. I already spent $10 to get through the door (one muskie lure) so i know my bag is going to lighter before i even make a purchase. | |
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| I somewhat agree with Magruter...you pay to get there, (gas etc), then to get in , then you are hungry and you get jacked $10 for some food and drink ...It would be nice to see the larger vendors offer things at a discount or on sale or buy x and get x% off or something...Prices for a double 10 at some places just seemed to high when I know I can get the same bucktail as good or better from Gerry Carroll out of Milw and he'll make any color combo I want...at a cheaper price...
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Posts: 8863
| Spent all my money at the Mojo Booth! 
It's an evolution of sorts, goes something like this:
Step 1: Buy anything and everything that looks cool
Step 2: Buy everything everyone tells you you should have
Step 3: Buy all the "hot new" baits
Step 4: Buy everything in multiple sizes
Step 5: Buy everything in different colors
Step 6: Realize that having a dozen of the same lure is dumb
Step 7: Sell all the stuff you bought in step #1
Step 8: Buy the few items that are missing and maybe one or two new lures
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| I don't agree with Step 6 EA! Having at least a couple dozen dawgs, a couple dozen Gerrys Girls, and at least a dozen DRaiders is needed! But I know what you mean....
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Posts: 1294
Location: Stevens Point, Wi. | I hope a lot of vendors don't quit because of a lack of sales at the show. I think it's important that they get their product noticed. The sale may happen at a later date. For whatever reason, a lot of people look now and buy later. Consider the show as an advertising cost. You can't sell what people don't know about. | |
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Posts: 2024
| AMEN, Brad!
There's less of an incentive to buy stuff at the big vendors when it's the same stuff you could find on their websites or in the store. When I go to the shows I look for CUSTOM colors, not stock colors. I always look forward to visiting the Musky Innovations booth cuz they always have custom stuff. Smokey's had a great selection of custom stuff including some kick @#$ Squirkos and Hellhounds.
There seems to be less and less of an incentive to go to the shows in terms of searching for "show specials" or "show deals." Even 10% off on everything would be cool.
Needless to say, I still spent as much this year as I did in years past... | |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | I think this is a very good topic, I voted for the Internet one, but I think you missed a great choice. The reason I dont buy is because I like to support the local tackle shop guy. Fishing Connection in Tinley Park, Greg is good to me so instead of buying at a show I ask him to order the baits I want and then I will get them from him, or even Ye Old Tackle Shop, I might pay a little more (which isnt much) but it supports the local guy....if you make that a choice change my vote to that...
pga
Edited by pgaschulz 2/12/2007 2:56 PM
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I just didn't see many decent deals at the show. Outside of Pastika's Buy Six Get One Free (which used to be buy 5 Get One Free or something like that) the prices were absolutely the same as you get online or if you shop around they were higher. I looked at a GLoomis rod for $220 at the Smokey's booth and the GLoomis rep right away came up to me and said they can't do anything about the price. At that point I can go to my local Gander/Dick's/Dorns/D&S and buy the rod at any given time. | |
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Posts: 743
| maybe alot of the Milwaukee area folks went to the Chicago Show, TRI ESOX..and spend a bunch of money there...and only have so much money budget for "show season"...
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Posts: 434
Location: searchin for 50 | $20 for a lure its getting outrageous  Maybe I'm missing something here. If you want to get your lures in peoples hands charge a little less and see what happens . I know vendors have to pay for booth space and lodging and meals. I thought thats why they had the shows was to get their baits out to the fishing public. I probably won't be going back to Milwaukee for awhile. Same reasons gas admittance fees parking fees. | |
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Posts: 27
Location: FORT ATKINSON | I bought too much at the Chicago show. This year I have alot of musky trips planned and trying to save up for them. I think that I am still paying for baits that I bought last year. I saw lots of baits that I wanted, but could not afford. I am the one that will buy every new bait that I see. I think that it is important that the vendors show off their product at the shows to ensure that they have future buyers. I was wondering if the number of people booking guides is down from other years? | |
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| Great topic! Are the vendors actually selling less? Someone tell me how spending $20-30 for a lure that is made of rubber and could get ripped in half after one fish a great idea. Why is a bait like the kickin minnow $6 but a Castaic swimbait is $12.00? I hope the vendors are selling less maybe they will lower there prices accordingly. BAITS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!! | |
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| maybe alot of the Milwaukee area folks went to the Chicago Show, TRI ESOX..and spend a bunch of money there...and only have so much money budget for "show season"...
this is my theory too. the really motivated buyers in the area go to the Chicago show because it's earlier and it's not a far drive. i saw a lot of the same people at the Milwaukee show but they were there to enjoy the show and wander around talking to people.
for Muskie Mojo where i was working, the show was slower than Chicago but still covered costs by a bit.
Prices for a double 10 at some places just seemed to high when I know I can get the same bucktail as good or better from Gerry Carroll out of Milw and he'll make any color combo I want...at a cheaper price...
i was working at the Mojo booth selling double-10 bucktails: $25 for a XX and $30 for a XXX. admittedly, that is a lot of money for a bucktail, but there's much less actual profit in them than you might think after materials, time, hotel, travel, and booth expenses are factored into it.
Gerry was selling his Gerry's Girls at the MuskieFirst swap on Saturday night for $20 each. that's barely less than the other double-10 bucktails were selling for, and there is no overhead cost for him to show up to the bait swap in his hometown like there is for an actual booth at the show for out-of-town companies.
one very important thing to keep in mind is that for those bait makers who sell their products through retailers (which Mojo does, as do the other major double-10 bucktail makers) you can't undersell the businesses who retail your product! if running a "show special" price would compete with your retail outlets that retailer is going to be unhappy with you and stop ordering your product. show colors and prices that are slightly above retail are really the only option for companies who sell through retailers.
it's simple, really: if a bait is too expensive for your budget, don't buy it.
if companies don't make enough money to cover costs they'll stop coming to the show and then everyone will complain that there's not a good selection...
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| Here is what I have found... If you are paying retail price for any rod, you are paying too much!! You should be able to get rods at least 15% off.. If you can not get the price to come down, have a custom rod built.. I had a St. Croix Avid 8'10" custom built (with a decal of a naked hot blonde) for less than a factory 8' avid... As for reels, I have had a difficult time getting people to drop prices, more than a few %.. Seems like there is alot more room to play on the prices of rods....
As for lures, if they will not give you a discount, at the very least, Thorne Brothers gives a 10% discount for musky inc. members for lure sales...
I use to go to shows thinking I would get good deals, but I gave that idea up after 2 years of attending....
I think some of these lure makers should look at the increase in sales they would get, if they had one time show deals on lures.... I know I would personally pay the $10 cover and carry a large allowance of cash to these shows if I knew I could find some good deals... I think I'll save my money for the Thorne Brothers spring sale... | |
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | I'll go with E50...I buy custom/new baits at the show...Not stuff you can buy online at Gander/other bait shops...The big shops/vendors should consider offering show only custom colors...I know that at least some of the smaller specialty guys are doing OK...In Chicago, I stopped by the Trueglide booth first thing on saturday morning...Joe had sold all of his spinner baits and his selection of gliders was fairly limited due to strong sales on Friday...I left at 4 pm and when I went past his booth it looked like he had maybe 15 or 20 baits left (offering high quality, hard to find baits would seem to be key)...If the big shops want to move quantity of standard baits, they need to take a clue from Thornes at Chicago...Buy 5 baits and get one free...or maybe considering not bringing half the store and concentrating on new intoduction baits and custom color baits...It would be interesting to hear from the big guys in regard to their sales...Up or down?...I guess having half your store there might spur folks into doing some impulse buying...At Chicago, I noticed one booth throughout the day with very little traffic (A neighboring exhibitor told me that particular hardly had anyone stopping all day)...Of course the baits they were selling were in 3/4 of the other shops...I bet they would have done better with some really cool custom colors or significant discounts...All I can say is its got to be hard to make a living selling musky baits...I am truly grateful for the guys and gals who do...I did my part in Chicago...I did spend more than I ever had before  | |
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Posts: 1270
| I saw strong sales at the show this year. As far as rods most rod compaies have a set minimum retail, if the dealer sells it for less they can end up loosing there dealership in those rods. Yes you might be able to get a custom rod for less but jut because it is "custom" doesn't always mean its better or even as good as a factory rod. Plus you have a warranty that is better with a factory rod most of the time. How much good is a lifetime warranty from a 75 year old custom rod builder? | |
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| It's not just the shows.
I only do it as a hobby anyway, but after making 60 lures so far this year and selling only 10, I'll sit on the box of lures that I have before I even go through the trouble of making any more. Unless guys want me to make some for them and contact me, I'm just making lures for myself.
And as far as $20 being too much for a lure, apparently there aren't many people who have tried to make their own for less than that. Blanks, hardware, hooks, paint, clearcoat....all of which went up between 35 and 50% since last year, and let's not forget that intangible- time. The components for a lure, start to finish, cost about $10-$12. I put about 3 hrs into each lure, figuring drilling, weighting, balancing, sanding, filling, priming, painting and applying 3 coats of clearcoat. I think $20 is very resonable, now that I know what it takes to make one. Good quality lures are well worth anywhere from $20-$30.
I have a box full of 10" blanks that I was going to start turning into lures once it started warming up a little bit, but the way things are going, I'm going to make a dozen for myself and not plan on making any more unless asked to.
I have some hanging right here, and I know what went into making them. I think they look awesome, have a great action and I'll be throwing them all year. They'll be $30 a piece, and they are worth every penny.
Beav | |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | I know that everyone is trying to make money, but I think the biggest reason a vendor should go to a show is exposure. | |
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| Reelman,
A new St. Croix Avid blank carries the same St. Croix avid warranty.. Also I think that my 25 year old rod builder will take care of me if the rod breaks due to bad workmanship or a bad blank... Just my opinion, if your going to spend the money, get exactly what you want.. I am sure there are rod builders out there that will screw you over, I also believe there are some that want to build a high quality rod for their customer.. If he does a poor job, he will not get the repeat business, so far he has done a good job and I have bought from him the past 2 years.... Only my opinion!!! | |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I would say part of the reason for not as much buying, is that 6-10 years ago, there wasn't the internet exposure or access to these lures. Now, every vendor and store has their own website and internet specials. I love going to the shows as nothing is better than seeing things in person, and even better, in the tank. However, I can now go to shows, and leave, not worried about not being able to get something that I saw there. I used to love the show specials(Fudally used to really suck us in as they ran some great ones), and wish they were as common as they used to be, but do understand some of Lambeaus points in his post above regarding pricing as well.
Wish I could have been there, as i've missed the past 3 of them, and always seem to find at least one new thing that I have never seen either in person or on the internet.
That said, 25-27 bones for the double 10's is too much(knowing now how much we can make them for), even at a show. But... they have been selling like hotcakes, so who can blame them. I personnally have been running Baitmaker stuff for years or more specifically, Gerrys girls, till my buddy Greg started making them. But, if I didn't have these guys making my lures, I'd still need/want them and be paying it too.
Edited by Reef Hawg 2/12/2007 6:08 PM
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Posts: 284
Location: Fishing the weeds | I just couldn't make it to the shows this year. Otherwise I would spend a Grand or more. Pat | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | 4-6 months in advance of fishing .... there's a ton of other things to do. snowmobiling, ice fishing, hockey etc ... why drive and spend 500 bucks including lodging and meals to look at stuff that's in the stores? that money alone justifies my electronics upgrade planned for this year. only thing i'm missing is the cold beer, b.s., trash-talking, idolotry and jealousy of the girls in the crowd and i can catch up on all that through the boards, emails, pm's, in the boat and around the bar this summer ...
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Posts: 1462
Location: Davenport, IA | I spent plenty....I buy more at the shows than I do throughout the year. I like to get a good look at the lures. I'm always looking for something different. And in Western Illinois/Eastern Iowa....every tackle shops sells 3 different muskie lures. As for rods and reels...yeah I only look at the shows. I can usually get them at a lower cost. Although the reason retailers can't deal much on reels is a very small markup. Rods on the other hand have a large markup. | |
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Posts: 350
Location: WESTERN WI | This trend can be related to the only the last year or two, max. In the past Americans have had a very strong habit of spending more than they make. It has come to light that in the last year or so, the average American has less in their average savings account since the Great Depression. The fact that American "overspend" habitually was bound to catch up with them and it has. In general, retail purchasing is down considerably from the previous year. This may be painful for retailers during this recover period, but is necessary to strengthen the American Dollar. As for me I spent the same on baits but have sold/traded more baits than I have in years past to generate the money for trips/boat maintenance/gear and baits.
Edited by Got Esox? 2/12/2007 7:09 PM
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| I dropped about $150 on baits from the little guys. Figure I saved more on shipping then I spent getting to the show. | |
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Posts: 412
Location: Waukesha, WI | I voted for Internet sales, but ultimately, why buy today when I can spread those costs out over the next couple of months. There were a couple of Mojo baits I still want, and I saw a couple others that were intriguing. I passed on LakeMaster WI software because their update is on the horizon. Sure I could have bought it at the show for 10 dollars less or I can wait and get the latest without a doubt. I'm guilty of buying lures from Gerry. Little did I know we live within miles, and I talked with him for awhile. I have some loyalty to Smokeys since I met John this past summer, and he invited me to sit down and started shooting the bull. He didn't know me from Adam. If I can order from John, Gordy, Don, Adam and the others I met there, I will. I still have a 40 dollar gift certificate from Smokey's that I held onto. More trolling combos, Mojo baits, electronics, I have to spread out the purchases to get things just the way I want them. | |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | how many people who thought the baits were too pricey were walkin around drinkin over priced beers????i have to wonder... is selling expensive beers at a show a good idea or a bad idea, everyone seems happy to have the beer there, but i wonder if it has any effect on people losing sales due to the prices or money people are shelling out for beers. just a thought. the food and beer lines seemed to be fairly long at the busy times of the day! | |
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Posts: 144
| This was the first year that I bought anything at the musky show. I spent a bundle. I did notice that some of the custom made lures were really high priced. A guy at rollie and helens tried to sell me a creeper for $60.00!!! He had obviously put a lot of effort into them and they looked cool, but I couldn't see spending that much on one bait. I'd be afraid to throw it much less let some dumb musky scratch it up! | |
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Posts: 512
Location: Appleton | I went to both the Chicago and Milwaukee show and spent plenty. When I go to the shows I look mainly at custom colors and hard to find items. I know Mojo got more than a few of my $$ (had to have a 10" weagle). | |
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Posts: 1270
| jclymer, I never said all custom rod builders are the same. There are good ones and then ones that are not so good. Yes the blank carries the same warranty but if your builder doesn't know what they are doing and wrap the guides to tight and bruise the blank then your warranty is no good. I hope your 25 year old rod builder stays in business long enough to take care of any warranty issues that may arise but we all know that these little guys come and go pretty fast.
With all the rods out there today I would think that you would have to either be VERY picky or just want something different if you can't find what you want in a factory rod, but to each there own. | |
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Posts: 663
| As many of you know, I work for one of the major musky specialty retailers. This is a great discussion and I'd like to throw a few thoughts out for you to consider. First of all, our sales have been fine and we are pleased with the shows thus far. I know that is not the case with everyone but I think you have to consider that all this is a delicate balance and a lot of factors figure in.
As a year round retailer we have to determine pricing before the beginning of the year and live with that price throughout the year for the most part. We examine the manufacturers cost to us and then figure a price that will be competitive and fair in the market. In many retail businesses the rule of thumb is to double the cost (keystone). That simply is not possible in the musky world. You guys would absolutely not stand it if we were to double the cost of a bait. We find what we can live with and either accept that price or decide to take a pass on the product. We also offer a discount on sales through our internet site (5%) because we recognize the time savings in taking your order off the website and processing it quickly.
The next step is specifically about shows. If you were to think about the cost of booth space (thousands of dollars in our case) the cost of travel, lodging, paying staff, feeding the staff etc. we are in a huge hole before the door to the show ever opens. As you come to our booth we are hoping that we have brought the right product mix, interesting new things, some custom and exclusive items and the nuts and bolts that you guys expect us to have when you come visit the booth. As far as specials are concerned there are a number of things that our store and I presume others did to offer some extra benefit to shopping with us. In our case we had the equivalent of one full booth space of baits at half price. Yes, most of that was closeout items or things we will not be carrying next year but there was an awful lof of good stuff if you asked or looked. We also had some specials on baits that were show priced at two for the price of one. The rest of our space was dedicated to bringing the items we thought you would want to see and hopefully purchase. As Reelman mentioned some manufacturers like the bigger reel and rod companies require us to stay at or above their minimum suggested retail price. If we go below that price we are subject to losing our dealership. When I find out that a dealer is doing something like that, you'd better believe I will report them to the manufacturer. If those are the rules for being a dealer then everyone should have to abide by that. Now, you may have noticed that there was a show special on Abu-Garcia reels. If you bought a reel you got it spooled for free plus a rebate certificiate for $10-15 dollars depending on which model you purchased. That works out in most cases to be close to a $25-30 dollar savings. Not too bad I'd say. Some manufacturers like Shimano or Frabill were offering a free cap or shirt with the purchase of their product from a retailer. That may not mean a lot to some guys but others are appreciative of a little perk like that.
Now when it comes right down to it, if we ended up giving extra discounts on baits and other equipment eventually it would not be worth it for us to attend the show. We would simply not attend or at the very best, severely cut down on booth space. If the people buying booth space don't make money they stop coming to the show. Ask the folks in Pittsburgh why there is no longer a musky show in their town. Ask the show promoters what would happen if those bigger retailers dropped out what would happen to their show.
Now Johnnysled (I think it was him) brought up an excellent point. The other reason we attend shows is to promote our business. I think most of you who came to our cash register were asked if you get our catalog or would like to. Yes, we want you to do your shopping throughout the year to come back to us. We try to make your shopping experience positive so that when you're ready to buy something you come to us. Heck, I want every car full of musky guys coming up Highway 51 to stop in our store when you're on your way to go fishing. We and I'm sure most retailers try to do that. The show is a three day event where we can take our best shot at gaining new customers and keeping the existing ones happy.
The cost of lures? Yes, they have increased over the years. Some seem steep but I'll tell you this, I don't know of many bait builders who are getting rich making musky lures. This is especially true of the small, custom bait builders. Take a look at the amount of work that goes into some of those baits and figure out what the guy is making when he sells you a lure at $20-30. Most of you would never go to work for a company that paid you a per hour wage for what those guys are making.
The thought that the dealers should just "drop their prices" is not going to happen. You have to decide what you have to make to stay in business. Dropping prices is in many cases an indicator of a business that is not healthy. It's like a dog chasing his tail trying to play catch up if you're not profitable.
Hey guys, that's just a few thoughts off the top of my head and I appreciate an opportunity to present a dealers viewpoint on the issue. Overall I saw an awful lot of happy show attendees who were having fun, socializing buying products and soaking up the musky vibe. I've got three more shows coming up this season and look forward to every one of them. It's fun for us too when we have great customers like we do.
Edited by Pete Stoltman 2/12/2007 8:19 PM
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Location: Des Moines IA | This post got me thinkin' ,and I've come to realize , I've spent way too much $ on musky stuff already this year ..... I even think I said I wasn't going to buy anything at the shows this year .... Yeah Right .................
Edited by MuskieMike 2/13/2007 2:14 AM
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Posts: 617
Location: Clintonville, WI | "I did not see much that I wanted (needed?) to buy". I did not see much to buy for two reasons:
1. Because for the past 10 years I have purchased TOO MANY rods/reels/baits!! In fact, I am paring down my bait stash because 3/4 of my stuff sits in the basement. I have identified my go to baits of each type and will add backups periodically, but other than a few new baits each year (like the Baby Wabull) I see this trend continuing for me.
2. I bought 8 baits in the Breyer Auction and 2 during the M1st Perka promotion prior to the show.
Now, a few random thoughts about this thread. Bette is right on. Anyone walking around with a beer (some with many beers throughout the show) should not have voted that gear/baits are too expensive. Hello pot, meet kettle. By the way, was nice to meet you John.
Kind of related to what Lambeau said, booth and travel costs have to be accounted for in show prices of everything. In terms of baits, think about all the short run (i.e. more costly) custom stuff that is popular. I might be contrary to many, but I think shows are the WORST place for a vendor to offer a discount. It would be nice, but I do not expect sweet deals at the shows. Not realistic. I would think that promotional sales outside of the show season where the vendors and retailers work together to drop prices on stock runs, common items, etc. would be more regular. The more stuff they sell, the cheaper it is to make. Shows are interactive promotional opportunities for the vendors and their consumers, with higher costs than normal for both sides.
In general, I do think the retail cost of musky gear has priced many (most?) of us out of the market. I can not afford to regularly pay $30 for a bait or $230 for a reel. As a small example, take the big double #10 blade mylar/flashabou baits that are popular. Knowing roughly what the body materials, metal components, wire, etc. cost in bulk, then seeing how fast they can be made at the show, I'm not sure i see how the retail price is not a HUGE margin. I can see much more cost and work in a painted glide bait, but you get the idea. But the harsh reality is........If I am in the minority, people will keep demand up and the prices will go up too. If I am in the majority, sales will drop, and prices will go down or bait makers/companies will sell to bigger companies or go out of business.
I had a GREAT time, learned a lot and bought some stuff.....just not as much stuff as in the past.
Edited by BigMo 2/12/2007 9:35 PM
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Posts: 157
Location: Wausau/Phillips WI | I always look forward to the Milwaukee and New London shows every year and this year it's number 2 for The Sportsmans in Appleton. It's always a good time during the dead zone of winter to get out and see some great products demonstrated in the tank or pool, to hear a couple knowledgeable speakers, and to talk fishing. I usually can always find something unique that I wasn't even aware existed and also find some custom painted lures.
You're right, it isn't cheap but as long as I can afford it I'm going to go to these shows. Gas to get there $40, lunch $14, Supper on the way home $26, to get in $20, and like $280 for lures and a $15 hook remover is about $400 for a one day trip. When I got home and looked at what I bought it wasn't much of a pile. A pink Pacemaker for my daughter, a creeptonite, a LifeLike Pike, 2 of Tauchens topwaters, 2 Bitten topwaters, a Weagle Jr., Purple Slammer, and 4 bucktails.
Worth it , I guess but looking at these 4 bucktails sitting on my table for $100 seems a bit much. My son said that's why he didn't want to go and he'll just stop at R&H if he needs something.
See you in Appleton and New London.
Buddy | |
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| Ive heard more then a couple vendors remark that the Milw show crowd is more tire kickers,,its not a big spending crowd | |
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| Reelman,
You nailed it on the head.. I am Very picky, as I am going to be holding these rods for about close to a 1000 hours this year. I want a specific length and action for specific lures, these lengths are not offered, plus I wanted something different.. I can pick my own colors, specific wraps, different decals, shotgun shell in the butt of the cork handle, ect... All of this for the same price as a factory rod... Once again, only my opinion, I am not going to debat factory vs. custom.. I personally feel that having a custom rod built to your own specifications is a better deal.. If a custom rod were to cost much more than a factory rod, well then, I could probably find something out there that will fit my needs.. | |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I second Hooker's comment. I've heard that most people blow their cash at the Chicago show and just look around in Milw.
Another thing to consider is that we're not seeing the ballooning increase in muskie fishermen that we did back in the mid/late 90's. EA had the newbies buying curve down pretty good. The "muskie boomers" already have invested in a ton of stuff over the last few years. Now they're a little more selective in what they purchase IMOP.
As to lures being too expensive. Unless you want "people with little hands" making all of your baits you're going to be paying $15-$30/each. True some guys are making a profit, but that's how it should be. If they don't then they won't make a bait. If it takes an hour to make a bait(start to finish), what's a fair amount of profit? Would you work for $3-5/hour? Something to think about. | |
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Posts: 193
Location: Mayer, MN | I'll be honest, I voted because of pricing.
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | I can’t make it to the shows because the expenses I would rather put towards a trip and I am defiantly a custom lure kind of guy. I would only be looking at custom lures if I did go to show which you can also buy over the internet just as easily and just because I won't be the first one with that new hyped up lure I don't care. | |
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Posts: 92
| Sadly, I think it's true that the shows are becomimg more about entertainment or something to do, instead of a place to purchase baits. The shows are big for the small bait makers, moneywise, but it's tough to make a profit after buying a booth. I don't have any ideas on how to make it better for the small baitmakers, I hope they all make it though, otherwise musky fishing baits will become more like bass tackle, large companies with big production and less of a unique quality.
Jim Stroede | |
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Posts: 101
| First off, I voted on the expensive part. Now let me explain why.
I've only been into this sport for the last 3 years now. I've invested a ton of money, and regretted alot of it. I have so many unused baits, and wasted money in lures I've used but hate I don't know why I keep spending.
To the point, living on a limited family income I have to look for the best deal. At the Mil. show they were there to be found, but I saw alot of the same lures at different vendors for different prices. Take the LeLure Creeper for example. You could get it at any of the big retailers for $26.95. Or you could go up to the LeLure booth and pick one up for $15.
I don't care how much a booth costs. That's the price of advertising. How much does it cost to maintain a website for a year? Print up brochures, flyers, and business cards? It's a part of business, and should not be reflected in the cost of lures. Everyone has those expenses.
Now I did spend money at the show. Mainly because where I live there is no good, close store to purchase musky equip. I spent less than last year because I had less money. I would have gotten a couple more items if I had the cash, but that's another story.
The guy I went with didn't purchase a thing. His reason was that there was nothing he saw that he couldn't purchase online.
I only purchased stuff I couldn't get at a retail store. I don't have any credit cards, or I would buy online and not spend money at the show either.
Another thing I saw was vendors who had their pricing structure all messed up. Same style bait, same color, 2 different sizes. The 12" size was $17, and the 10" size was $23. What is up with that? Why would I pay more for a smaller version? It was a basic Grandma style lure. There was nothing fancy about it.
Now take into account that the smart vendors who had lines, and ringing registers were the ones who were blowing out excess inventory, selling custom colors, and making baits to order and you see where the people were. The big box retailers there could and should take note of this. Maybe you should downsize your booth. Who wants to buy a perch colored Jake when they can get the same thing at any sports store? Downsize your booth, and have quality hard to find items at "regular" price. Don't jack it up because it's popular, or because it has a custom color. The custom painters were there also selling their artistic creations for less than you were.
To end the rant, I really do love the show, and had a great time once again this year. If I didn't buy something from your booth it wasn't because I didn't want your offerings, I just couldn't afford them. I saw alot of awesome baits that were handcrafted and beautiful looking, but when one of them costs half my budget, I'll pass.
As far as customer service goes, the items I bought had excellent service, and gave me the impression they were happy to have me purchase their products. The booths that didn't get my business were the ones too busy making the custom lures to sell me a $30 jacket. I don't blame them though, at $20+ a bucktail or spinnerbait that's a huge profit margin! And congrats to you for having the idea to do it! You just won't see me out on the lake next year wearing, or throwing your products for that matter.
~Dawg | |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | here is somthing i have been wondering about...recently there was a new cabelas superstore that opened up not far from the milwaukee expo....even though they are not a huge musky outlet, i have to wonder how many "area folks" maybe spent alot of their budget in that store over the last few months on other things like clothing electronics etc, to the point that maybe they had to hold back a little at the show???? just another angle to look at it from. | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | "I don't care how much a booth costs. That's the price of advertising. How much does it cost to maintain a website for a year? Print up brochures, flyers, and business cards? It's a part of business, and should not be reflected in the cost of lures. Everyone has those expenses."
EVERY expense that any business incurs is reflected into the price of their product. At least that's how it works with businesses that want to stay in business. | |
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Posts: 137
| I'm in the category that spent as much as I did last year at the shows. Actually a little bit more. But a lot of that is because I've only been muskie fishing for a couple years, so I still have an urge to try out a lot of lures to see what will and won't work. After a few years, I should have an arsenal of tools to use that will keep me from trying out all the different types of products that are out there. A few of my more experienced muskie fishing friends at the shows didn't buy much. Mainly because they know what works for them and don't need to try any new "trendy" lures. If the new lures end up working for people, then they will purchase them when and if they hear the buzz. The kicking minnow is a good example of a lure that most everybody ended up purchasing during the year, mainly because the buzz during the season indicated that it worked. What happened to the other new lures at the show last year that didn't work so well? They faded away and those of us that were sold into buying them ended up putting them in our miscellaneous tackle boxes, or trading them away to other unsuspecting lure hunters.
Another reason I spent money at the shows, is because we don't have any good tackle shops that carry muskie lures here in Indiana, with the exception of those near Webster. Sure, I can get them off the internet, but the new lures, and the custom lures, are hard to find, even on the internet. My biggest problem with internet sites is that there is little effort made to maintain them. For some reason, new baits don't get added to the online catalog as quickly as they come out. And really, if you look on the sites, you see that a lot of the baits that are listed as new, are actually a year old. Try finding a rumbler on one of the websites. I know they are out, but I can't seem to find them on any of the sites. I don't want to wait until the season has begun to stock up on baits. There are enough expenses to worry about with the boats and gear during the season. And looking at colors is a problem on some of the internet sites too. And then there is the order that you make, only to find out the bait isn't in stock. At least at the shows, you can hold the lure in your hand to decide if it is the right color, or is well made, before you make the purchase. I think that if the websites were kept up to date better, with more colors shown, and with specific sections showing you what new products are out (new, not, new last year) then I would probably buy less at the shows in the winter.
As for the prices of baits, I don't know why prices are so high on some baits, and I don't know why some people pay so much for them, me included. I agree with Beaver on the hard wooden baits. These baits are hand made, hand painted and take a long time to make. You can pay what they want for them, or try to do it yourself, but those are your only options. And quality goes down as prices go down. But for bucktails and rubber and plastic baits, I was somewhat dismayed at the high prices being charged, even though I know that if people will pay for them, then they are not going to lower their prices anytime soon. Plastic baits made in an assembly style fashion that cost as much as the painted wood lures that they compete with are ridiculous. And why do people pay three times as much money for a giant rubber poured bait that contains only two times the amount of material? There isn't more work involved in these baits, so why the disparity in the cost to material ratio? And they all have the same likelihood of being destroyed if they catch a fish, so who would pay for these lures? Are they that much more effective than the smaller ones? I have no idea why prices jump around so much sometimes.
Maybe a lot of these lures are bought just for the fishermans ego. I only say that because when I saw the new enormous bulldawgs at the show, my brother and I both said aloud that it must be for trolling, when a gentleman standing next to us puffed up his chest and said, I've got me a rod that will cast that just fine, and I'm gonna be throwing it all year long. Because he looked around the same age as me, I said to my brother, he can have at it, but when we are both fifty, I'm still gonna be casting for muskies, while he'll be hard pressed to go fishing for bluegills. (Sure, he may catch some nice big fish, but I'd rather have a long fishing career with shorter fish, than a short fishing career with longer fish.) My point being, there are many reasons that people spend what they do, and I don't understand why in many cases. But I don't think my reasons for spending the cash are any better than anyone elses, they are just different, so I don't expect prices on any of the lures to change anytime soon. Luckily we can still find good prices on a lot of good baits and don't have to resort to spending a lot of money........unless of course, we want to.......dangit.
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I really enjoy the convenience of ordering baits online, but it seems to me that this past season at least half of the time I ordered a specific pattern ... the supplier was out of stock.
I have found myself going more and more directly to the manufacturer to get specific patterns that the online outfits either do not stock, or are out of stock.
There is no way that I buy into the rationalization that the markup on Musky lures is low.The markup runs at least 50% (double the cost) and anyone that tells otherwise is telling fish stories.
As far as what it costs exhibitors to rent booths at shows; these people own a business, and with that goes the right to deduct such expenses directly off the top of monies derived from the sale of their baits or even from guiding fees if they co-mingle all of the monies received from their business operations.
So at the Milwaukee show baits did not fly off the shelves at the same rates they did in Chicago. So what!. Why all the "whoa is me" about the lure manufacturers.
They are making money ... don't worry about it. Knowing what I know about how much I spend every month on Musky baits and equipment -- the manufacturers of these products are the last guys whose financial positioning I am worried about.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 2/13/2007 1:59 PM
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | How is it that one online resource charges an extra $12 to ship any rod over 7 feet long, while another discounts the rod with a special sale price and provides free rod shipping? (tongue in cheek...)
And still conversations abound about the cost of doing business and the shrinking profit margins that exist today.
Don't believe the hype
Craig | |
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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Being on the retail end of musky lure sales, I can tell you that no one sells their baits anywhere near double what their cost is. It takes a LOT of sales to make a living in the lure selling business. That's why most retailers sell more than just baits. There are other items in their stores that carry a much higher profit margin. If people knew how little I made on each lure I sell, they would probably think I was nuts. But that's why I still have a full time "job" with no intentions of quitting anytime soon.
Aaron | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I will add an addendum to my two previous posts and state that when lures are handcrafted; I understand completely that there is a time factor involved with changes the cost model. I would not compare the time it takes to craft a handmade wooden bait... and the amount of time it takes a machine to produce a Jake (or 100 Jakes during that time for that matter). DITTO for the BullDawg.
That being said, I have watched the Chicago Show videos that Steve has provided to us and definitely see a difference between assembling a $30+ spinner in 45 seconds, as compared to a craftsman working with wood baits, applying multiple coats of clearcoat, lacquer, etc..
Everyone takes a chance when they are doing business. That's the nature of the beast.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 2/13/2007 3:10 PM
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Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Nicely said!!!
matt | |
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Posts: 1530
| being a bait manufaturer its really funny to see the informative posts from all. well said in all aspects. one thing not touched on is economy and uncertainity of their futures. we are constantly being eroded in dollar values from cheap asian imports.. as some manufactures have gone overseas in product manufacturing the smaller guys are still implementing good value and quality products. shows here in michigan and ontario have far peaked. booth cost necessasry but prohibitive at 1000 bucks. as stated before retailers have to sling a lot of product to recover costs. theres no certain evil of overpricing or gouging. its just plain poor economy. | |
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| It's expensive to drive there and back. Expensive to get in the door. Costs $4.50 a beer. Hotel is $70 a night and that's not bad for Milwaukee. Then lunch, Dinner, Drinks at the bar. Everything is expensive & unless you have an endless money train it's just to tough to play the game all the time. Lee T want's $30 a lure & $40 in some cases, then it's $450 to hire him too... OUCH!
If this keeps up, walleye fishing might not look so bad. NAW! Love fishing for muskies, just hate the expense. | |
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Posts: 544
Location: Alsip, Il | I use to drop $250.00 to $350.00 a year at the shows, but I am glad I only spent around $150.00 this year at the shows. I use to look forward to the shows thinking I would get better deals, but that has long past. The other reason for me was to get custom colors but that is now fading. You ask about maybe getting an old color or custom color they are out of, you get blown off (some customer service)!!!!!! Now, the main reason I go is to break up the winter and bs. with new and old friends. I am also subjected to owning tackle boxes full of lures that may have only seen the light of day once, which I will hopefully purge from my garage. Sooner or later I will learn. Al | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | Ordered a Double Chopper just today from Lee T. (black with the flaming orange head).
Can't wait to throw that bad boy
Craig | |
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Posts: 35
Location: Johnsonville, Wisconsin | For what it's worth:
My son and I spent about $180 at the Expo, Includng gas/(poor) chow/door and parking. Would have spent some more on baits (bought 2) but had a rod-reel combo swiped from my truck in '06 and had to replace that. Found a great deal on both and saved a bunch.
I really enjoyed looking at the new baits being built and just wanted to say that the quality of the baits being offered was so far above what has been offered in the not too distant past that I was impressed. I have made some baits in the past and know what the costs are. I didn't see many baits that were overpriced and quite a few that were clearly worth more than the asking. All of the creators are to be congratulated.
Just beautiful craftsmanship and well worth the $$ for the piece.
There were baits there that I honestly felt were far too nice for me to toss into the water (or off a rock wall), maybe there is a practical $$ limit between functional and art.
I do not Internet buy for many things because it is more important than people realise to keep the independant, creative entreprenures in business.
My .02
Daffy | |
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| We don't need all these lures but face it we are just musky bait addicts. I would have more colors and styles of top producers if I could see better prices. Most basement bait makers offer me great deals and I really appreciate that aspect of true quality work at a reasonable price. | |
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| Lets see got a perka cause it looked good, cost ? help me out here Andrew what did I pay?
Got a weagle 10 because it matched the color of my older one. Lambeau I think you sold it to me how much?
Ring bling 20 I think.
Lakeshore don't remember the cost.
I go to the shows to see what little guys have and help them out. | |
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Posts: 412
Location: Waukesha, WI | muskihntr - 2/13/2007 12:44 PM
here is somthing i have been wondering about...recently there was a new cabelas superstore that opened up not far from the milwaukee expo....even though they are not a huge musky outlet, i have to wonder how many "area folks" maybe spent alot of their budget in that store over the last few months on other things like clothing electronics etc, to the point that maybe they had to hold back a little at the show???? just another angle to look at it from.
Cabelas is probably a 30 minute trek for me. They really haven't stocked much in the way of muskie gear when I was there in October. Cabelas being nearby has not impacted my purchasing habits yet, and probably won't. With this board enabling contacts, my main sources are direct, Smokey's, and R&H. The only thing I bought from Cabelas when I was there was an impulse purchase of the LakeMaster WI chip. Darn demo for another customer. lol
Edit: now that I think about it, Sportsmans Warehouse is closer than Cabelas, and I did get my Frabill from Sportsmans as well as my last Abu/St Croix combo.
Edited by ESfishOX 2/13/2007 10:07 PM
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Location: Fishing the weeds | It always amazes me when I hear or read people saying that the person providing the service or product should eat his expenses to provide lower prices. Would you take a 50% cut in pay to help out your employer? I don't think so. And for the record the bucktails that cost $25-$35 usually have the very best of materials that are not cheap. Price some oversized blades on the market and tell me the price of the end product is not justified. Most people who have never been in business cannot and will not understand what it takes (money and time) to run a business. I get it all the time in my business. They ask: Why are your prices so high? My reply is: "Because I'm not a non-profit organization". And then you get the people who ask for extra work to be done "While your here" and then get offended when you charge them for it. The simple fact is if you can't afford it don't buy it. Don't piss and moan about the price. Businesses aren't in business to lose money. Pat | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | Hey Pat!
I agree with you. I pay the price and purchase lots of expensive stuff. I think that with all of the issues and sub-issues mentioned within this this thread .... we've got a fruit salad going. There are so many independent variables when it comes to doing business that it's difficult sometimes to see the forest for the trees. Small independents definitely struggle to produce their fine products and still get prices that fairly compensate them for their time. Then, of course, we have a lot of mass-produced stuff that is in my mind overpriced. However, many of those baits are proven fish-catchers, and I pay the price for the opportunity to throw them.
I originally posted on this thread because I had perceived some violins being played for the tackle producers over the fact that their baits were not flying off of the displays in Milwaukee the way that they did in Chicago. That was all.
I think everyone's opinions on this thread are interesting. They help me to consider other angles and ways of looking at things. I have been in business for myself my entire adult life, and understand that Business A over here may be singing the blues about this or that and they are really hitting the nail on the head. Additionally, Business B over here is singing either the same or a different song, yet their circumstances are really quite different ... thus indicating that they are telling fish stories while Business A really had something there. And that's where the "fruit salad" begins to be prepared.
Let's look at some of these plastic and/or swim baits. Machine made by the thousands. Quite possibly made in a foreign market where the workers were getting paid 15 cents per hour. Can we still say in good conscience that a price of $15 to $18 for a bait that costs maybe $3 to make (including the shipping and handling costs to get the bait back to the licensed producer here in the states) is the same as let's say a Gene Richardson bait, whose glide baits are individually and hand produced? How about the baits produced by Musky Snax? And many others. Lots of hard work and hand craftsmanship has gone into those lures for sure.
Speaking about "business" and "owning a business" in such general terms when costs, circumstances, time, and craftsmanship are involved is a real slippery slope in my own opinion. There are just too many variables to generalize.
Business is not easy, but it's not a hard pill to swallow that if we took to heart all of the excuses and tap dancing explanations provided to us by business owners and product producers (with any product or service) about why they need to charge this or do that .... the consumer would be even more victimized than we already are. As an ultimate consumer I can say that it's really a jungle out there. Just call your telephone company or insurance company these days ....about anything.
I think the overall quality of equipment, baits, and services within the Musky industry is astoundingly high when compared to the slip-shot, ragged, and shaky business practices that abound out there on the street. It seems to me that there has been a tremendous decline in recent years with business owners attitudes about all aspects of servicing the public. The actual welfare of the ultimate consumers has taken a back seat to profit. Period. They have neither shame nor integrity.
I just hope the Musky industry keeps their current high standards when it comes to quality of the products that they are selling and customer service. I know that I am willing to pay an added price in order to get them both.
And how much do you think the materials cost on those monster spinnerbaits anyway? Once again, I pay the price for what I want, but don't expect, nor believe, that the profits of any mass-produced product are marginal. The oil companies have been screaming about dwindling profits and a tough market forever, yet they continue to post record profits.
I am now well into in my fifties, and feel that I have had enough time and frame of reference to express opinions about the decline in general business practices (outside the Musky industry) over the past (let's say) 10 to 15 years. Yet when I read posts about the "pre-ROI days" and the changes to the way Jakes are now being made, and the changes in the Bull Dawg production, etc, it really makes one wonder. I guess that's just business.
The business concept of selling baits at a lower price in order to sell more of those same baits seems to have eluded the Musky industry. Just look at all of the guys on this thread alone who have stated that they did not buy based upon high prices. Lower profits per unit x more baits sold = the same profit in the long run + higher consumer satisfaction and a more broad opportunity to "brand" a company name. Just my 64 cents.
Craig
Don't believe the hype.
Edited by cjrich 2/14/2007 2:46 PM
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Posts: 412
Location: Waukesha, WI | I have to wonder just how long it took to find Formula X and the cost of research and development? The cost of tooling, press setup, maintenance etc for the baits that are mass produced. How many baits are made at one time. Need to run more? Sure, setup cost again. Oh, and time to clean the mold when it is done running. Sat on the shelf in storage too long; time to clean it again. What about baits that have inserts in them in the molding process. That might require a press operator full time. Even mass produced baits have costs that add up. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I can tell you that the components are very expensive for the large 'bucktails'. The skirting is expensive, the blades are expensive, and the wire costs alot. SO?
'You guys make a ton on the lures' ..... it's simply not true. There are several steps on the wholesale to retail ladder, and everyone involved makes a margin, none of which are akin to an oil company. Keith's Violent Strikes, for example. It costs him about $7.00 in parts and labor at $10.00 an hour to build one of his large 'hobby' baits. How much should that lure sell for at the retail level?
If sold by the builder to the retailer, it will be discounted. That's the nature of the business. So the retailer buys it for $11.00 and sells it for $18.00. Any idea how many of those it takes to keep the lights on in a tackle store? Anything with less than a 40% margin shouldn't even be on the shelves. I guarantee you, an item like that wouldn't last in the big boxes at a smaller margin. That peg could be filled by a higher margin product. Watch the closeout bin at a Gander, you'll see what margins are really there.
What about the booths like Shack Attack who sell nothing at the shows? Pretty impressive commitment to the retailers there, I'd say.
So the builder goes to a show. They pay $350.00 for a booth, $265.00 for hotel, $150.00 for gas, and $125.00 for food. Should they sell to the public at wholesale or at a 'lower' price to generate more sales? If they did---
1) The retailers there would have a reason to toss that builder's lures back in the box.
2) The builder would have to sell 222 baits using the figures above to break even. WHY do that? May be a better idea to just let the retailers do the selling and stay home. No custom SHOW ONLY colors for me, that sucks. Don't forget, the builder puts in about 30 hours at the show, that time has value, right?
3) If the builder doesn't wholesale then they go to the shows to retail. WAY fewer pieces go out, and the builder collects the retail price. Let's say the builder sells 300 lures which would be really good-- WOW, they clear about $900.00 after taxes. If they do 4 shows, and are miraculously successful at working them all and selling 1200 baits, they make about $3600.00. I'd rather guide, no one complains about the paint or whatever not being 100% forever, and the day is spent on the water. There are worse places to work.
4) The idea that people will not pay what a lure should cost, so the builder should take less, CREATES THE NEED to look for someone else to build the lure for less money. What happens then? The same folks complaining about the lure price complain about the lure being built in China. You can't have it both ways.
5) Service costs money. Complaining about service you don't want to support or pay for is not going to get you anywhere, it's the demand for lower and lower prices that pushes service into the category most don't want to see. The Big Box stores are a shining example, Americans LOVE 'em. I for one hope the Muskie industry stays to the Smokies, Rollie and Helens, and Guides Choices of the world. At least those folks know what the heck a glider IS. I'm delighted to pay the price that quality and service commands, whatever that might be. If you are not, and you are in the majority in the future, when quality handmade Muskie lures and individual works of art become mass produced and sold at a Big Box with zero service to save you a couple bucks, holler about it while you are shaving, the guy you are looking at is the guy to blame.
Retail in the fishing business has been down for a few years. it's a symptom of a ton of economic factors, all of which add up to a tough market to begin with. The Muskie segment has exhibited growth despite all of this, which is a good thing. | |
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Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Amen, Mr, Worrall...
matt | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I am in the process of weeding out some of the items in my box. I have been very well behaved at the shows so far this year with very few purchases. That being said, I have made a few aquisitions in the off season. I needed (yes dear, I NEEDED) to have a couple of the Baby Wabulls, the Rumbler was high on my list also, as were XX and XXX's. Altogether this offseason I have aquired about a dozen new baits.
My goal this season is to fish with only 200 baits in the boat. With the 12 newbies in the arsenal minus the 25 or so I parted with at the swap, I still need to cut approximately 200 baits from the boat. That is the main reason I am not a huge buyer at the shows.
Prices are what they are, I seriously doubt many are getting rich making baits, and I would rather they keep selling them so I don't have to make my own in the offseason ( I am sure that would cost me way over their prices). Could I have bought more baits, you bet I could have, and I often had a hard time restraining. Even though I wasn't there to reload the tackle box, I did have a blast socializing at the show I got to see friends and clients that I don't get to at any other time of the year.
Funny but true, I will bet I was the only guy at the Milwaukee show that bought more books at Barnes and Noble on the way home than he did baits at the show! | |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | "Funny but true, I will bet I was the only guy at the Milwaukee show that bought more books at Barnes and Noble on the way home than he did baits at the show!"
*do they not have BOOKS in Antigo? Or DID they have them, but so few people knew how to read them, that the town just got rid of them? | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Believe it or not, we do still have one book store here. We even have a Public Library. I just had to pick up some of those harder to find guys you don't see just anywhere.
Next time you come up here, are you going to camp? If you were going to I could pick you up the Beginners Camping Guide next time I am in a big city!
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Location: NW burbs of Chicago | Jews don't camp, Norm. But thanks for the offer. Now, if you had a book on the cheapest places to stay in the area, then game on | |
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| Guys, what Steve said is worth reading until you understand all of it. And worth repeating until EVERYONE understands is this little gem:
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"... it's the demand for lower and lower prices that pushes service into the category most don't want to see. The Big Box stores are a shining example, Americans LOVE 'em. I for one hope the Muskie industry stays to the Smokies, Rollie and Helens, and Guides Choices of the world. At least those folks know what the heck a glider IS. I'm delighted to pay the price that quality and service commands, whatever that might be. If you are not, and you are in the majority in the future, when quality handmade Muskie lures and individual works of art become mass produced and sold at a Big Box with zero service to save you a couple bucks, holler about it while you are shaving, the guy you are looking at is the guy to blame. "
AMEN, Steve.
The difference between buying stuff from a big chain sporting goods store and any of the places Steve mentioned IS HUGE. I like knowing the guy who answers the phone. I like knowing that the guy I'm asking about a certain product knows WHAT THE $%%& IT IS. I don't want some pimply faced kid (no offense to pimply faced kids, I was one many moons ago) who has never been fishing before punching numbers into a computer to see if they have one when I call on the phone. I want the guys who fish with them. And if I can I want to buy my baits from the guy or the guys that make them. I want to buy my tackle from someone I can call and say "Hey, I caught a fish on your ___ today."
To tell the truth, if closed down forever I wouldn't miss it. But if Thorne's or Smokies or Rollie and Helens closed down? It would be a shame.
What would be a bigger shame is if Shumway quit making flashers, or Luke quit making Wabulls. | |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Just a few random thoughts...... I attended both shows.
1.) I go to buy custom color baits (I have Smokey's in my backyard).
2.) I expect to pay money for a beer and that is figured into the total package, ($5 for parking on the other hand is ridiculous).
3.) There are more custom bait makers at Milwaukee in my opinion.
4.) Bait Builders SHOULD sell at retail and SHOULD sell "Show Colors", most muskie retailers have inadequate amount of baits of each vendor.
5.) Chicago is a "look to see what's new"/Milwaukee is "I'll buy it if I really want it" Spring is for "Now I gotta get me one".
6.) I voted for "Didn't see what I wanted", but I had a bait in mind and didn't want to shell out $32 bucks when I did see it.
7.) Llungen Lures had the best promo, get a free hat with a purchase of a bait.....And the hat wasn't a "domer" either.
8.) The big muskie retailers could save money on paying staff by sponsoring more participants in tournaments and having them work the shows.
9.) I spent more at Milwaukee than I did in Chicago.
10.) Muskie Fishing is not a poor man's sport.
GotOne
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Location: Milwaukee Wi | Buy american !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would rather sell more inexpensive baits!!!!!
Edited by Bayboo_baits 2/14/2007 5:24 PM
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Posts: 663
| GOTONE - 2/14/2007 5:15 PM
Just a few random thoughts...... I attended both shows.
1.) I go to buy custom color baits (I have Smokey's in my backyard).
2.) I expect to pay money for a beer and that is figured into the total package, ($5 for parking on the other hand is ridiculous).
3.) There are more custom bait makers at Milwaukee in my opinion.
4.) Bait Builders SHOULD sell at retail and SHOULD sell "Show Colors", most muskie retailers have inadequate amount of baits of each vendor.
5.) Chicago is a "look to see what's new"/Milwaukee is "I'll buy it if I really want it" Spring is for "Now I gotta get me one".
6.) I voted for "Didn't see what I wanted", but I had a bait in mind and didn't want to shell out $32 bucks when I did see it.
7.) Llungen Lures had the best promo, get a free hat with a purchase of a bait.....And the hat wasn't a "domer" either.
8.) The big muskie retailers could save money on paying staff by sponsoring more participants in tournaments and having them work the shows.
9.) I spent more at Milwaukee than I did in Chicago.
10.) Muskie Fishing is not a poor man's sport.
GotOne
Item 2: I have to agree that we all would rather not pay for parking but that is not the show promoters call. The State Fairgrounds determined that and yes, even exhibitors had to pay. Now consider this, I worked a show in Chicago a few weeks back and had to pay $18.00 per day to park (McCormick Place) and talk about food and drink prices, how about $7.00 for a slice of greasy pizza. Not sure what they were charging for beer or liquor but a Coke was $3.50 for a 12 oz. drink.
Item 4: I didn't get around to analyze my competitors but typically retailers bring as many baits as possible from each company that we exhbibited. Nobody can bring the entire contents of their store but certainly most of the time between three or four retailers you can find most everything you need. I'm curious to know what you couldn't find.
Item 6: Will you buy that $32.00 bait at another time or just take a pass on it altogether?
Item 7: Keith did a nice job and Llungen was very generous to give away as much as they did. Kudos
Item 8: I don't think so. You still have to have experienced staff who know how to and are able to put those booths together, merchandise and set up displays, know store service policies, handle transactions including credit card transactions, etc. No offense to tournament guys or "guest salesmen" but most of the time they want to hang out, talk about fishing, or sell their own particular favorite baits. After the show there is the tear down and packing. FYI most of the large retailers are still working three hours after the show has ended. Not complaining, just the facts of life. With a very few exceptions having non-staff people staffing a booth just doesn't work.
Item 9. Thank you!
Item 10: Yes and no. It is as expensive as we want it to be. I'm just like most everybody else and spend way more than I need to on baits, tackle, boats, travel, etc. but that's my choice. | |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Item 2: I have to agree that we all would rather not pay for parking but that is not the show promoters call. The State Fairgrounds determined that and yes, even exhibitors had to pay. Now consider this, I worked a show in Chicago a few weeks back and had to pay $18.00 per day to park (McCormick Place) and talk about food and drink prices, how about $7.00 for a slice of greasy pizza. Not sure what they were charging for beer or liquor but a Coke was $3.50 for a 12 oz. drink.
Item 4: I didn't get around to analyze my competitors but typically retailers bring as many baits as possible from each company that we exhbibited. Nobody can bring the entire contents of their store but certainly most of the time between three or four retailers you can find most everything you need. I'm curious to know what you couldn't find.
Item 6: Will you buy that $32.00 bait at another time or just take a pass on it altogether?
Item 7: Keith did a nice job and Llungen was very generous to give away as much as they did. Kudos
Item 8: I don't think so. You still have to have experienced staff who know how to and are able to put those booths together, merchandise and set up displays, know store service policies, handle transactions including credit card transactions, etc. No offense to tournament guys or "guest salesmen" but most of the time they want to hang out, talk about fishing, or sell their own particular favorite baits. After the show there is the tear down and packing. FYI most of the large retailers are still working three hours after the show has ended. Not complaining, just the facts of life. With a very few exceptions having non-staff people staffing a booth just doesn't work.
Item 9. Thank you!
Item 10: Yes and no. It is as expensive as we want it to be. I'm just like most everybody else and spend way more than I need to on baits, tackle, boats, travel, etc. but that's my choice.
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Peter Stoltman
www.lastcastguideservice.com
Peter-
My thoughts regarding Item 4: I understand that many retailers have lots of manufacturers that they carry and have limited space. If I was a bait builder, however, and the retailers only had 3 or 4 of my baits (maybe more with different colors) and I had many more baits available, I too would want to promote my business and show all available products. If a particular retailer promoted my entire line, I wouldn't have to do this. I would think a retailer would want to have an "exclusive" show colors of a certain bait anyway.
I'm curiuous to see how you feel about bait builders and selling their products directly at the shows, (keep in mind that I am a salesman, work many trade shows, and am on the other end as a distributor competing against direct manufacturer business myself).
Item 6: I've been known to shell out $32 for a bait. I guess I would probably end up buying later towards the season if I still wanted too.
Item 8: Experienced staff to run the registers, yes. More "free" bodies working in the booth....wouldn't be a bad thing. "Free" bodies to help out with set up and tear down should be mandatory. I understand what its like to be there breaking down a booth after everyone else is gone too, its not fun being the last to leave when the only one left is the security guard. You have more experience at these shows than I do, my point was to help the bottom line, get some free help.
I'm quite content with the show(s), I think a little more marketing and promotion by the retailers could just make the show better. I'll still be there regardless.
GotOne
Edited by GOTONE 2/14/2007 10:25 PM
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Posts: 663
| Great question Dan. Of course we would rather not see our suppliers selling against us at the shows. The musky industry is a bit different than the "real world". Please let me explain. When one of our bait suppliers is at a show selling the same products that they ask us to stock it gives us very little incentive to give them booth space at a show. If we do bring those products we trust that they will not be selling at a lower price. I can tell you about one of the bait makers who was selling their lures at the show. We brought at least a couple of each of their products in each color we stock. We did not sell one bait made by that builder. Obviously that was a bad decision on our part. On the other hand their were several manufacturers who had their own booths at the show but did not sell to the public. Instead they referred customers to us and the other retailers who carry their product. We had to re-stock those sections repeatedly during the show. No question, I like this situation better. In the long run the manufacturer should like that too. He keeps the retailers happy who sell tons of product and then have to buy more from him. When a manufacturer sells directly to the public he makes one sale. When he sells to and supports a retailer there are potentially many more sales. It's a two way street. When a manufacturer supports us in that way it's to our benefit to help push their product not only at the show but also in the store. Now I understand some of the smaller builders who may be a one or two man operation feel they need to sell baits at the show to recoup their show costs. In that case we either do not bring those products or hope that the baits they are selling at the show are special custom or "show colors". We try hard to know what the case is with each manufacturer when we plan our show display. It doesn't always work out but in most cases it does.
Here's where the musky industry differs from the real world. In other industries if a manufacturer was selling against their dealers at a show those dealers would drop their product like a hot potato. I guess because we are a little more "mom and pop" oriented a certain amount of this selling is tolerated even if we don't like it. Some manufacturers obviously understand this relationship a little better. Drifter Tackle, Roberts Outdoors, Dunwright, Shimano, St. Croix, Fig Rigs, Pure Fishing (Abu-Garcia/Berkley) Shack Attack, and others did very well at our booth this weekend. Many of those have already or will shortly be getting re-stock orders from us. Others who sold their own products and cut into our sales won't be needing a re-stock order. I guess they are happier making whatever they did at the show rather than getting repeat orders from our store. That's not sour grapes it's just the facts.
In regard to the staffing thing. Yes, we usually have friends in any given city who will show up and put some time in at the booth or even help with set-up and tear down. Sometimes bait makers will spend time in our booth helping us to sell their products. Scott Kleinschmidt from Musky Safari did that in Milwaukee and sold a bunch of baits. That's great but it still doesn't allow us to decrease the amount of employees who are required to handle the start to finish duties that are needed at a show.
Not sure what you mean by more marketing and promotion by the retailers would help. Please explain or give me some suggestions. We are very interested in knowing what we can do to make the shows better.
Edited by Pete Stoltman 2/15/2007 1:09 AM
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | i'm kind of surprised there arent more votes for the economy. i've noticed the past year or so there are far more items for sale on ebay than in years past. also items seem to sell for less than they would have a few years back. same goes for the trader board on here. items that would have been snatched up as soon as they were posted a few years ago sit unsold now.
i know guys in the trades that have never been laid off before but they are now. a lot of guys i know are pretty worried about what the future holds.
folks just cant spend what they DONT have to spend. | |
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| Muskie Treats - 2/13/2007 12:51 PM
"I don't care how much a booth costs. That's the price of advertising. How much does it cost to maintain a website for a year? Print up brochures, flyers, and business cards? It's a part of business, and should not be reflected in the cost of lures. Everyone has those expenses."
EVERY expense that any business incurs is reflected into the price of their product. At least that's how it works with businesses that want to stay in business.
My thoughts exactly on that subject. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Expenses shouldn't be reflected in the cost of a product? They are. They have to be, to not reflect expenses is a sure method of going out of business. Can't have it both ways.
The idea is to try to make a profit or why do this? of COURSE advertising, promotional, material, overhead, labor, and other expenses will determine the cost of the product. The margin is added by dividing by the remainder of 100%. Let's say I want a 20% margin, I divide my costs by .8. The question was why folks are or are not buying at the SHOWS, so the SHOW COSTS are being discussed.
Here's an alternative. Make your own blanks by hand, build some molds, buy a roll of wire, a box of hooks, split rings, hardware, silicone skirting, blades, tools, paint, sanding materials, etc. Go to te basement bait forums and ask how to use all this stuff, and build your own.
Whenever costs rise and prices rise as a result, we hear accusations of excessive profits. Might be true in the case of Saudi oil, but not in the muskie lure trade. Ask yourself if you would take a reduction of 18% in wages at your job because expenses went up and the boss doesn't want to lose profits or raise prices.
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| What they need to do is drop the price of beer. | |
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| Crash_McGolden - 2/14/2007 4:46 PM
Jews don't camp, Norm.
OK, the year is early. There will be some funny things said on this board. Sponge will come, and Sponge will go, and at times he will be drug free and lucid, but......this has got to be nominated for "line of the year" honors.
Drinking coffee and I just about choked to death! | |
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| Great replies Steve. I think a few guys may have gone out fishing the day that Economics 101 was held. | |
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Posts: 419
Location: Appleton, WI | I normally don't get too worked up on politics of such things. But if you ask a question and ask for a reason to why people aren't buying. Why get a little defensive in what they are saying? Take a step back, listen to what is being said and figure out a way to remedy it. Seems like some folks are being quite honest and helpful for the possible reasons, but you're only going to stimy more responses by attacking back what they are saying.
Times have been changing and it definitely hasn't been for the better. It's going to continually change and it's going to impact how everyone does business. Whether it's determining how to sell more product, give better customer service, and have a job that you totally enjoy doing that's the job of the folks in the industry. But if some folks do give some corrective criticism give an open ear and weigh your options. I totally agree with Steve's posts he pretty much hit the nail on the head on that one.
catch ya later,
Krappie | |
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Posts: 32955
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey, reality does sometimes suck, but it is what it is. No 'attack' intended. Some of the comments and sugestions have been quite good, and some have been very unrealistic. It's not always clear to everyone what drives the economy; prices, supply, demand, etc. | |
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Posts: 485
Location: On my favorite lake! | It is probably a combination of things. 1) I know I had to cut back a little as far as what I could spend. 2)Everything is going up in price as far as outside the show. Leaving me a little less money. 3) The Milwaukee show did not have all the lures I wanted and Chicago sold out of some of them. I still bought but didn't spend my whole budget because I would rather wait and get what I want. 4) I attended both shows Chicago and Milwaukee as I am sure a lot of people did so the money got split some. 5)I think that with the bears in the superbowl it killed sunday in Chicago. Also the Milwaukee show on saturday was not as busy as I thought it would be. Less people = less dollars. I think they had another show in Rockford. Maybe that took some people away. | |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Question for Norm Wild.
What are you reading, my brother? Let's talk books! Baits are boring.
Kevin
Strombolis tomorrow, the dough is rising.
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| As a lure manufacturer myself this thread has gotten my attention in a good way. Lots to learn from this for everyone. Prices are high for a reason. If making lures is a full time job like it is for many there are more expenses than just the bait itself to take into consideration.
Income taxes, exise taxes, house payments, truck payments, boat payments, insurance on all of those, food, clothing, gas, advertising, ........... What if you have kids to support? There's so much that every person has to take into consideration when pricing out the lure if indeed you plan on making lures your full time job. Full time lure manufactures rarely live in big fancy homes either so most of this is just everyday common stuff.
If someone is serious about making baits in the US it's really tough to do it full time and make it. If the consumer does not want something to be made in China you might have to spend the extra money and buy american because to live in the US plain and simply costs more.
This is a good thread and thank you to everyone for the opinions as it helps all of the manufacturers see what they can do better.
Thanks,
Ty | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Hopeful,
Right now I am reading Vince Flynn, Seperation of Power to be exact.
The Bourne Legacy is next, I hope Lustbader measures up to Ludlum.
To use one of Sponge's old tricks, I wonder if Ludlum ever musky fished or bought baits. (to stay on topic) | |
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Posts: 663
| C'mon Ty don't be so bashful. Didn't you and Rachael drive your Ferrari to the airport where you hopped on your private jet down to Aruba after the show?
Good to see you two. You guys make a great couple. All the best. | |
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| interestingly enough, one of the other very popular threads here on the site right now is "What Impressed You Most at the Show..."
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32...
all through this off-season people have been talking and interested about new lures, rods, reels, electronics, boats, motors, etc., etc.
somebody must be spending money on something!
or maybe it was the Hooter(less) girls?
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| Read carefully Jay>>>the Sponge is and has been drug free for many years, w/ the exception of an occasional trip to the V.A. pharmacy; it's known as east coast intelligence derived from Woodstock fallout, saltwater, and blondes...
> Most excellent post Krappie, good to see peeps from the past come back to life...
>SLAMR>that post will be forever a classic! The "Anyone have a bobcat" post by Pointer Pride took the 2006 award for it's simplicity and hilariousness!
>>you can tell by the posts folks were wearing 16oz gloves, much unlike the old days, when bare knuckled responses were the norm, and posters were bloodied and maimed to varying degrees in the streets of cyber town...welcome to civilization!
>>>Personal view> time/effort/personal dreams/ skill go into each bait...if I want that particular bait, the $$$ I'm spending is for an item that is unique; I may never even use it, but I'm pleased nonetheless...
Norm>>>Lud dude I doubt fished muskies, as NYC didn't offer the opp, and I'd imagine his latter days in Fl were spent playing Parcheezie(?) leaving little time...thanks for asking though, as muskie fishing and bait buying are a topic rarely discussed here!
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| In Regards to selling baits
Last year we had Rappala corp has our guest speaker at our MI chapter,,,the corp sent two of their most experienced reps,,,during the course of their presentation a number of peope expressed 'pleaded' that they want a musky size Husky Jerk,,,The Rep said they have heard this request many times but that they have also approached marketing/mfg about it and the resposne was were not intrested in the set up for selling 9 thousand baits!!!,,I guess the risto or x rap surpassed 250 thousand in one year,,Rappala marketing is convinced that the musky world has a ceiling of 9000 baits | |
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or maybe it was the Hooter (less ) girls?
HAHAHAHAHAHA!! | |
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Location: Minnesota | I know I have learned my lesson with owning a bait company. I started my business to make a few bucks to pay for some extra fishign tackle....lol $3k to start and only $1k made so far with more $$$ dumping back in all the time. I have about 700 metal lure lips left and hence 700 baits left to make. After that I will sell Grunt Muskie Lures website/plans/ and all. I do make money, but my big baits cost over $10 to make and they don't fly off the small assembly line I have... I also tried to keep the price around $40 but I shoudl have pushed it to $50... Oh well I will keep on truckin until I sell 700 more... That should break me even plus a thousand or so for the 300+hours of work at that time.
James
http://www.gruntmuskielures.com
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Posts: 663
| Don't know if that figure of 9000 is accurate or not but it shows where the mindset of the greater fishing industry is. As much as we are passionate about our sport we are a tiny piece of the pie. They can pump out a couple bajillion Rattle Traps or something else and be reasonably confident that every mom and pop bait shop and hardware store will snap them up. Not so much with musky baits. | |
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| musky bait manufacturing does have a ceiling. also geograhics. some areas cast others troll. making baits is a way of life for some. the great thing is small manufatures can do custom work for individuals needs.. i have been painting for 2 decades and believe me i have met some very intresting musky nuts over the years. would we do it all over again,,,you betcha. its been a ride. | |
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Location: Minnesota | Re: 9000 baits.
If you are selling 9000 baits, wow! I do realize if Rapala sells 9000 baits they dump that lure.... I think they do not realize the pike buyers would account for a lot more than the muskie buyers if the bait was the right style/size. JMO
Edited by Grunt Lures 2/17/2007 9:33 AM
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Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | The indicater that I use to tell if a sports show is successful and, as a famous person once said, "peeps" are buying, is the number of people walking around with new muskie rods in their hands. If you see alot of new rods, there typically are a good number of baits being sold as well.
Mr. Worrall, your posts on "Muskie Show Economics" should count as Continuing Education Credits for Business Degree holders.
One thing that Bill Schwartz of Slammer Crankbaits does every year at the shows is to offer custom show colors that aren't available at stores or internet outlets. In that way he isn't directly competing with the retailers. It is important for every vendor to be profitable in some degree. Even though the shows typically are as enjoyable for vendors as it is for show customers, (there are so many great people of all walks of life at the shows) if a vendor cannot cover or exceed costs, it makes no sense to be there to sell.
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Location: Columbus, Georgia | I have read and re-read this thread a few times now. It has assisted me in looking at some of the great issues and aspects detailed here in new and different ways.
The fact that we all want to purchase what's new and exciting is something that everyone would probably agree is not possible, so we all try to put the brakes on ourselves and try to keep it reel (real).
But yesterday I was surfing some of my tried-and-true online resources and realized that there are proven yet lesser-costing baits in all categories. That is to say; whether it be spinnerbaits, topwaters, jerkbaits, or whatever .... there are manufacturers out there that produce baits that are known to catch fish while still being retailed at lower prices.
I am not implying anything negative whatsoever about other tackle producers. I just realized that while Musky fishing is an expensive sport, one can still fish baits under any conditions, without having to own dozens (or hundreds) within each category. I guess I am as guilty as anyone else of owning more baits that could possibly be thrown by a small army of Musky Hunters.
So, in looking at the extreme disproportions reflected in this straw poll about why guys were not buying (as much) at the Milwaukee Show ... I surely don't feel that anyone is being "left out" of our sport because they cannot afford (or do not choose) to purchase everything in sight.
This "migration of attitude" is very good for me. If I had not had the opportunity to read the detailed thoughts and convictions of a bunch of dedicated and sincere guys who love this sport .... I'd keep looking at things through my own glasses.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 2/17/2007 12:48 PM
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| I see "Stuff is just TOO expensive!" is number 1 in the rankings.
IMO, surf eBay about once/week. You will find a LOT of good baits for 1/2 price including shipping. For instance, I have 19 Suicks from eBay so far. A few needed paint and all now are good as new! Some interesting baits new and used can be picked up for cheap. Just my opinion. I still buy a lot of new but try to buy from the basement/small builders when I do. That is for msukie and pike tackle. My bass/walleye/crappie are all Cabelas/Bass Pro bought. | |
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| In regards to Pete's post about manufactures selling products that they want dealers to carry. I can't believe that they would do this, if I was a dealer and one of my suppliers was undercutting me at a show that I was at or even selling for the same price that would be the last order they ever get.
Now when there are 3 retailers at the same show selling the same product it makes it a little more difficult but still doable. The manufacture brings enough baits to supply all the retailers and if a retailer runs out then they fill the order right at the show. When a consumer comes to the manufactures booth and asks where he can buy the bait from the manufacture tells the consumer all the retailers carrying there baits.
For a manufacture to sell against a retailer is a very short sighted thing to do. Now they will have to go to all the shows because the retailers will not be supporting them at the shows or bringing baits to the shows. They will also probably re-think how many of the baits they stock in there store. This will end up hurting the bait manufacture in the long run. | |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | There are a few different ways to look at the issue that reelman has detailed. I agree that if the retailers are at the show, they should re-stock on-site. The manufacturer should have runners to re-supply the retailers when they run low on items. In this variant we would see the manufacturers showcasing new items, explaining all aspects of their baits, getting to know the guys that are ultimately throwing their baits, and getting exposure and conducting overall PR.... but they would not be selling. One could say that it's not fair for the retailer to have to compete with a manufacturer at a show.
However; there is a completely different way to conceptualize this whole dynamic. One can begin with the premise that the show is not about the retail store that guys can purchase lures from any day of the week either online or in the store. The show is about "baits," and the people that produce them. One can also go under the assumption that the big retail outlets have no business at all at these shows. There are small bait producers (and enough has been discussed about this all week long since the Milwaukee Show) who have it hard enough staying in business. They sell their baits for half-price/wholesale to the few big retail outlets, and now they have a show where they can actually meet the guys throwing their baits and have a few days and the opportunity to make full price on their baits. Except they can't really do that, Because Rollie & Helens, or Thorne Bros., or Smokeys is there with the same line of stuff that guys can purchase any day of the week online or at their store if they live within relative driving distance.
Considering the above variant #1, one can say that the retailer would then be getting squeezed (yeah ... for a few days out of the entire year in a market that so few large retailers virtually control). Yet so much has been said here, and in defense of, about the guy who is trying to make a living crafting baits. Well, here is his chance, but he can't get ahead because those retailers are there and he's getting beat by wholesaling his stuff when he has one of the few opportunities of the year to retail face-to-face. Yes, many manufacturers will sell directly to the public. One can say that's OK too.
So presented here is a decent position championing the bait manufacturer. Telling the retailers that they have to "sit this one out" would surely not put them out of business. One can as well present a solid defense for the retailers being at the shows.
It appears that some would believe that there is some degree of conflict of interest going on when producers and retailers are both selling at the shows. Some others might also have an understanding as to why things work well (and fairly) the way they are.
I don't really know enough about the "behind the scenes" considerations at the shows. I just throw the baits, but I would be interested to know what those in the know think about the variants presented in this post, and reelman's preceding post.
Craig
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| A zing
Edited by Sponge 4/30/2007 6:41 AM
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| I budget my money at the show.So if I spend $5.00 to park and $10 to get in and another $10 for the honey.tHATS ALREADY $25.00 LESS Im spending on lures.I alsom look for deals or custom stuff at the shows not what I can get at my local store. | |
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Posts: 351
| Really an interesting thread.
I started building baits years ago. I started building bucktails and safety-pin style spinner baits for musky. Two years ago, I began building hardbaits, including crankbaits, jerkbaits, twitchbaits, and have built a few prototype jerkbaits, which have been extremely successful for me on our local waters.
If I ever sell any of my baits, and I haven't yet, it will be likely only to buy more equipment to build or buy more supplies. As of now, I have not intentions of doing that.
From the beginning, I decided that I would not sell my baits openly for a variety of reasons:
1. Doing anything as a business is vastly different than doing it as a hobby for friends, family, and/or yourself. I used to LOVE photography...ate, slept, and breathed it as a hobby. Decided to do it as a "side business" and I hated it. I hardly ever pick up a camera for pleasure shooting anymore. I learned from that.
2. I cannot afford to work for the profit margins involved in a hardbait. If you account for buying a bench sander, a grinder, a bandsaw, rotary tools and bits, a compressor and quality airbrush, all the paints, solvents, clears, etc, etc, you may not live long enough to break even.:)
3. People are people. Some are tough to deal with; others have unreasonable expectations of any given product or supplier. 95% of people out there are fun to deal with; the other 5% are the ones that would take the fun out of building for "profit" for me at least.
4. I don't wish to spend time off the water (fishing) to work on back orders and custom colors.
5. I don't wish to make a "line" of baits, and thus be relegated to repititive assembly style work.
But don't get confused. I'm NOT complaining. It's just that having been in business for over 31 years in a field far detached from bait-building/selling, I understand the basic format for commerce and it simply does not jive with selling baits to the tune of only hundreds or even a few thousand a year.
I also knew from the beginning that most people naturally don't want to pay over a certain number of dollars for something they'll tie on a string and throw into a body of water which can hold rock and stumps. That only makes sense.
I also knew that, while people truly "appreciate" art, our appreciation of art is usually disconnected from our wallets. I'm the same way. It may please my eye, but food, clothing, and shelter, and the other necessities of life will always have a higher priority. We remain cautious about spending that which we may need for otherr things.
Lastly, I'd like to comment on the quality of work out there and the process of "becoming a musky fisherman.
Someone above outlined the steps we all go through, buying the basics, then buying what we've heard is the "hot bait," etc, etc. That was a very accurate outline. I did the same things for musky fishing, pretty much.
If I knew then, what I know now, I'd buying NOTHING BUT custom hardbaits from the guy that are making baits on the websites that I hang out on (which discuss and display the work of bait builders). I'd gladly pay the prices they are now asking. I'd get higher quality and the baits would last much longer and catch the same if not more decent fish. The great bait builders put their hearts and souls into the baits they make. Many are truly a form of art, but again, the product's mission is to be flung into nasty rocky, stumpy, deep waters.
One of my running jokes with my friends is, "You can buy a musky bait for about $13 or you can make your own for about $25."
But you need to examine the baits and think...One of the commercially made baits which has been successful for me is the Monster Shad. About $9, right? The problem that I noticed is that the bait gets torn up rather easily in my opinion. So if I could buy a bait in a similar configuration for about $20 and it lasted for many seasons, would it be worth it to you? It would seem to be worth it to me, which is why I've spent thousands on equipment and supplies to build my own...that and the satisfaction of catching fish on my own baits. I have almost nothing in my arsenal now that I did not build. I've spent a ton of money and countless hours learning how to do it right.
It's the way it is and it's not going to change. Each person has to decide how to make their way through the process and spend what he can afford to enjoy the insanity of musky fishing. Such a small percentage of the total fishing population to "market" quality rods, reels, baits, etc, is a huge factor in any analysis of "profit/loss" over longer periods of time.
The good news for musky nuts is that bait building is getting better as time goes on. The custom builders are talking to each other and sharing ideas, processes, new materials, even templates and sources for supplies, machinery, and equipment. The baits have gotten better just in the 18 months or so that I've hung out at the bait-building websites.
The results will benefit all. More fish per hour is the likely result. Baits will last longer (if they're not eaten by a deep stump). Less stress because of higher quality rods, reels, line, boats, you name it.
Expensive? Yep. Worth it? Let me tell you about 48 incher that I caught. I was trolling and when I hooked her, she came up and tail-danced across the water, showing her beautiful bronze coloration in the afternoon sun, and all of a sudden...
Edited by fatfingers 2/18/2007 11:24 AM
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Craig-well put thoughts. I see both sides of the fence here. I would hate to see the manufactuers not be at the show because the retailers are taking care of the promotion of their products. That is why I thought selling CUSTOM colors and selling at RETAIL, is a good way for them to still pay for their booth. I'm all for the retailers too, they support the manufacturers all year round, but they too would benefit from having the manufacturers promoting their products at the show as they get the sales the REST of the year. The retailers do a good job showing all of the "stuff" that they sell, a manufacturer at a booth can break it down to the choices, techniques, and specialities of their lure.
Fatfingers-Good point about custom guys too. I think if I send a picture of a nice fish that I caught on one of their baits they'd be a lot happier about it than a large manufacturer.
Pete-you asked about ideas for marketing and promotions from the retailers. I think some people already said things about having a "Buy 5 Get 1 Free" special or market a specific lure and have a raffle for a free guide trip from all of those purchases. I would think that there are lots of ideas to come up with to get more sales.
As a sales man, I find this topic quite interesting...more input?
GotOne | |
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| Too Busy to go!
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Interesting discussion. Personally I don't think that the bait makers OR the retailers have anything to worry about...buying lures IS part and parcel of the muskie game. Likely for most, the preeminent thing.
To give but one small example, I once had a guide client show up for his day on the water. The first question he asked was could he bring all of his tackle boxes. When he opened his vehicle, there were three LARGE Lakewood tackle boxes and one medium size...all were FULL to the max! And this guy had yet to catch his FIRST legal muskie!! Long story short, he brought all four boxes and fished with about six lures all day...and yes, he did catch his first muskie, a nice 37 incher.
This scene is repeated over and over by a vast majority of the guys that fish with me, so do not despair, lure sales will NEVER cease!
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com | |
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Location: Wauwatosa, Wisconsin | thank you for your posting, fatfingers! You da bomb! Well said. Well done. I'd like to meet you some day. Meanwhile, i have added you to my "HEROES" list. | |
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| Thanks for the kind words, Greg. | |
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Why Arent You Buying At The Shows This Year?