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Posts: 181
| What would you consider an acceptable time out of water for a fish for pics? If someone feels so inclined set up a poll or lets do this in a straw poll with a post. Also please give me reasons of why you feel this way. I have been informed that I'm too short minded and uniformed on this subject so I was hoping that some of the internet musky experts of this site could help me out with this one. I personally feel that anything over 10-15 seconds is really too much, so please lets see what you think. |
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Posts: 2015
| depends on water temp, how fast you get the fish in the net, how large the fish is, how it was hooked ....the quicker the better obviously but a muskie "can" survive several minutes out of the water.
On average a fish that I want to take a picture of is out of the water 20 -30 seconds
Acceptable = as fast as possible |
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Posts: 181
| great point Justin what about the trophy fish versus smaller fish does this matter? Do you handle them differently? More time for one than the other? I've never thought about it that way until today what do you think? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This fellow thinks over 15 seconds is too long out of the water. I disagree. I spoke with a DNR employee today, and he tells me after fyke netting a muskie, pulling the nets, chasing the muskie in the net, removing it, measuring it and stripping it or taking scale samples and fin clipping( pretty stressful stuff), the fish may be out of the water for 'about a minute' and that little harm results.
I try to get fish back in less than a minute, no matter what. 30 to 45 seconds to use a bump board and shoot a picture is acceptable. Under a minute won't hurt the fish. I tagged over a hundred muskies back twenty years ago with Monel style tags, and the recapture rate was pretty high. Interestingly, a couple were in the 50" class, and recapture was 100% eventually on those fish. I caught one 49" three times over the years from 46" to 49". CPR works, and in order for it to work well, one needs to take the pictures and bump board the fish in a reasonable time frame.
Either way, probably 10% of the fish we handle, even handle very carefully, may end up victims of 'angler caused mortality'. I will do my best to handle fish with care and respect, but refuse to become obsessive compulsive about it. I don't think I've killed many muskies with my CPR routine, and I bet I won't in the future, either.
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Posts: 956
Location: Home of the 2016 World Series Champion Cubs | What comes to mind when this topic arises is what are you doing to the fish that would take 30, 45, 60 etc secondes to get her back in the water. The one thing that I keep coming back to is actual mishandling the fish, ie losing control, letting her flop around either hanging by you hand or on the botom of the boat not so much raw time out of the water. Yes the sooner shes back in the water the better. Dont get me wrong here Im not saying a controlled fish can be safely released after a controlled hold out of water for 1,2,3 mins etc. What I normally do is revive her to a releasble state befoe I take her out for even the first time.If for some reason you cant get your measurement and photos quickly, perhaps think about doing it in two steps. Having your gear ready is paramount. Step one would be to measure the fish (in the water of course is best but I understand but not always the most accurate when we're talking touney's etc.) Pull her from the net and get a measurement. If this becomes a timeconsuming ordeal, dont push for pics right away get her back in the water(net) and allow additional recovery time. When I say recovery, Im talking to the point where she ready to go if you were to actually be at that point. Dont just assume that if she's in the net she'll be ok. If she's on her side. Get her upright and strong before you go to photos. This will give you and your partner time to regroup and get set for quick photos. Honstesly, when done in steps each can be done thouroughly and accurately in 10-15 seconds for each step. Whether you decide to do them at once or with a dip in the net between steps, use your best assessment of the situation and try to avoid letting old girl get out of hand, litteraly and figuratively speaking. I know I didnt specifically answer you time out of the water question but appropriate information I think. Do i think fish can be release after periods longer than 30, 45,60 seconds,yesdepending on specific cricumstances. But I think the emphasis should be on how short a time rather than how long a time period we're dealing with.
Karl
Edited by KARLOUTDOORS 2/3/2007 12:25 AM
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Posts: 2024
| I think these fish are a lot more hardy than most give them credit for. If you can keep a fish out of water in less than 15 seconds, by all means, that's terrific!
I think 60 seconds is an ACCEPTABLE amount of time. However, there's usually no need to keep it out of water that long. Think about how long it takes to put a fish on a bump board, take a ruler and get a measurement, or avoid the out of water measurement all together and do it in the water. That means then the fish is out of the water for 1) a measurement (unless you're blind, on something, or compulsive this shouldn't take but 10 seconds), 2) the initial lift from the net/transfer to measuring device 5-10 seconds, 3) let's say three pictures (for the sake of conversation) at 3-5 seconds each, 4) transfer to water (<5 seconds). All told that's about 30 seconds of air exposure. That's pretty good considering the various steps the angler takes during that period of time. It also means you could double the length of each of those steps and still keep air exposure at a reasonable level.
Now, 30 seconds plus 85 degree water temps is another thing...
I can provide links to scientific articles by Professors Steve Cooke and Cory Suski who have done extensive physiological studies on air exposure with bass. I understand a bass is not a muskie, but it can give you an idea of what is acceptable practice and what is not. I'll even do some searching about air exposure and muskies if anyone is interested. |
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| One minute is best if you need to take a picture at all. Otherwise just water release them  |
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Posts: 1529
| as little as possible. here on st clair it really depends on water temps itself. i find it very annoying of photo ops with sub-legals. boatside releases are best period. |
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Posts: 956
Location: Home of the 2016 World Series Champion Cubs | I do find a different practice many people employ on St Clair a little concerning. I've seen this on this on televeision several times. Yes, they are claiming they practice CPR but the manner in which they release the fish actually resembles a torpedo launch. The fish are thrown from well above the waterliine from the stern of the boats, most of which I've seen are larger boats, some were charters, still in drive with lures still being trolled. Looks a bit like what I've seen on some salmon charters. So much for reviving the fish prior to release I guess. Surely I cant have been the only one to have ever spotted this. As I said , its been on tv several different times, different shows, different anglers/boats. You get the idea.
Karl
Edited by KARLOUTDOORS 2/3/2007 6:01 AM
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Posts: 1529
| yes there are some who feel torpedo is sufficient. i personally believe in the good ole over the side honest revival. noticibly many over the siders are old school or lazy ass charter capts. from the u.s. side. its changing though.. one thing i would love to see is m.i. change its rules on there way. measuring a sub legal for any purposes seems detrimental. why not make there log minimums according to the lake minums. it seems to make basic sense. all to often i have seen visitors with a bump board ,bogas for a baby 38 incher. |
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| unless you are talking about the heat of the summer with high water temps and a stressed out fish...I'd say 90% of the time anything under a minute is fine... 30 seconds is nothing to the fish...and doesn't hurt them....when you get up over a minute that is getting a bit long and there is no need for it...if you have to put the fish back in the net for a bit if your first round of pics weren't enough or didn't turn out good....
the net is a huge livewell...use it if / when needed.. |
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Posts: 720
| Hi
Great disscusion going on here. Civil and well thought out. My take is I try and shoot for under 30 seconds in water temps above 70 degrees. In cooler water I still try and live by the 30 second rule, I'm just not stressing over it as much if for some reason I go past 30 seconds. In really warm water and warm weather I don't even bother anymore with pictures. Truthfully, I think in cooler water your fine under a minute.
Dave |
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| As fast as you can is preferable.
Sometimes it takes longer than that to get the hooks out of some fish.
Just do your best and do it as fast as you can.
I think how they are handled is far more important than the total time out of water.
Do your best, that's all anybody can ask.
Beav |
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Posts: 171
| What about cradles? I realize there's lots of contact with the skin/slime, but the cradle supports well, controls the fish. Does it just take too long to get them in the cradle and the 'cradler' is too close to the action, in harm's way? (If it's not obvious, I'm no expert and am real new to muskies.)
Erieboy75 |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | And that advice from a gentleman who get INTO the water with the fish to revive her...
I found a ton of stuff on the web about exposure to air and how long is too long, but most is on species other than Muskie, and the research is loaded with caveats that there are MANY factors to consider when looking at angler caused mortality after CPR.
A minute or less remains my goal. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Really seasonnally dependant as afar as what they can 'handle', but I think they can handle the 'out' longer than most would think(as stated above). Heck, I'll bet people have them out of the water longer than they even think they do. I have timed the process and was quite surprised that even the quickest timings were in the 30 second bracket. If a person takes the fish out, backs up, allows the photographer to snap two shots, and then bump board a fish it is usually longer than 30 seconds. I make sure my partner or myself always keeps the hand in the gill plate and under support area if a fish is measured on a board, so it can be picked right back up quickly and released.
That said, in hot water(where temps are extreme), I'd rather not bump board a fish out of the water, and take one pic, returning them and either estimating or measuring there. In this circumstance(high heat), I don't like leaving them in the net long before taking a pic to 'recuperate' as some think they do. Our experience has been best when getting them out and back in after a pic, as quickly as possible. Better to just get it all done and get them back so they can get back 'under' the heat, than to wonder if they are reviving in a hot net. Most times of the year though(even in summer), they probably are reviving in the net.
I think we and the DNR get a bit more room to play with in the spring and fall(cool weather months), as I think we've all seen that fish 'go' quicker in the cool than the hot. But, as was mentioned above, they can handle much more at any time than what many lead us to beleive. Bottom line, if you want to take them out for a picture or two, and wet your board and measure them in the boat too, don't let anyone tell you that you're harming the resource doing so.
Edited by Reef Hawg 2/3/2007 4:51 PM
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Posts: 3868
| Not longer than I can hold my own breath. The key is to have a net with a long handle and deep basket so you can leave the fish in the water for unhooking, getting the camera ready, etc.
I use to be such a bozo when I first started; too small of a net, inadequate release tools, and muskies flopping around on the bottom of the boat. |
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Posts: 181
| I really appreciate your responses on this one guys, after some careful thought I do believe maybe I have been a little too hasty in my own times out of water, and also maybe to quick to judge a few other people in how they handled there own fish they caught. I do believe that after some info that was pm'd to me that the people that shoot for a minute probably are not doing any more harm then myself but I think I will try and always if possible stay under 30 seconds myself. I watched about 2 1/2 hours of musky porn today and only one fish caught on all of these videos was out of the water for over 30 seconds. Just like the pm I received said look how long the fish are out of the water when the DNR does there netting and all of the handling that the fish recieve when they are tagged and measured, they obviously can't complete that in under 30 seconds, probably hard to do under a minute, we probably are just too concerned with this and should just try and concentrate on no verticle holds and such. Thank you again. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I agree with Ranger. My bench mark is about how long I can hold my breath. If you really try you can hold your breath for around a minute. If you minimize the handling and keep the time out of water to a minimum the fish should go off no problem. |
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| SWorrall
Can you elaborate on the 10% delayed mortality rate you cited? This is a disturbing figure.
BrianF |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Depending on the circumstances, delayed mortality from C&R can be higher. Estimates I have seen usually are in the 10% range. I hope it's lower! Even without angling, a significant percentage of any year class can die off from predation, competition, disease, etc every year. Start with 100 fingerlings, and in three years you can be down to less than half that number. Muskie mortality is pretty high without us messing with them. That's why good management dealing with each body of water individually is so important.
There is a ton of material in the research forum about the subject.
Compare the stocking records to the adult fish estimates from the WIDNR website to gain some insight. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | i would say i have keep all mine out of the water for no more then 20 seconds each. |
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Posts: 1168
| It is enlightening when you actually time yourself. What seemed like 20 seconds is in fact much longer.
Thinking of it in terms of how long you yourself could hold your breath is a good benchmark/thought to keep in mind.
Why do people feel the need to get pics of every last fish they catch? How many pics do you need of fish between 30-40? Release shots are much cooler anyway. |
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| Ulbian,
why do people that don't want a pic of most of their fish feel the need to rip on those that do?
I like to look at fish pics...all of them..do i take a pic of all fish...no, but most if not all over 35" I take a pic of...why? so I can look back and remember that fish, that day, that friend I was fishing with, that whatever....get over it....it doesn't hurt the fish to smile and say cheeeese for the camera....
when i'm 80 and have lost my wits about me I will have all those musky pics to look at....
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Posts: 1168
| Brad-
I am over it.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I hope I don't lose what's left of my wits about me at 80. I'm hoping for maybe 99 or so. |
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Posts: 149
| I use the following steps to limit the 'out of water' time to as little as possible:
- Unless it's a tournament situation, NEVER measure the fish out of the water. I use a 60" floatable stick and measure as I revive the fish.
- Use a digital camera. This allows you (with the correct settings) to take fewer pictures as you can edit them later into great pictures. It also allows you to immediately see your picture and determine if it's decent. It's important to have your camera settings ready to go before you hit the water. Consider using the following settings:
1) Pre set the proper focus distance. if your camera doesn't allow manual focus, set it to auto or infinity. This ensures every picture will be in focus.
2) Set it to 'landscape' or 'outdoor'. This will make the colors in the picture more brilliant, especially blues and reduce sun glare.
3) Set the camera to the highest resolution possible. This is the single most important step. The higher the image resolution, the more you can edit and crop and still be left with a crisp clear photo.
4) Set it to 'burst' mode. This means it will take multiple pictures every time the shutter is pressed. This means fewer shutter presses are needed and the out of water time is significantly reduced. It also increases the liklihood that one of the pictures will be excellent.
- Whenever possible take a picture so the camera is facing AWAY from the sun or light source.
- I sometimes (especially on smaller fish) only take 'release pictures' with me kneeling at boatside releasing the fish. In those cases the fish is never out of the water at all.
Those are some steps you can use to limit the out of water time to as little as possible. |
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Location: Illinois | I'd say 45 seconds, on average, out of the water. I'm looking to cut that down some by only bump-boarding special fish, that for whatever reason 100% accuracy is desired. Floating rule is good enough for me, so long as I have a picture.
Burst mode is a great suggestion esoxcpr- it seems like you can get some cool pics when you're not trying to pose for the camera! |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | get yourselves organized, enjoy the fish during the fight and while it's in the net. plan the photos ahead of time ... up, out, pose, portrait pic, landscape pic, back in the water, gone ... i'd hate to say a number for sake of being blasted, but if you are experienced and organized, it doesn't take long.
Edited by jonnysled 7/13/2012 6:32 PM
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Posts: 218
| Why do you need a picture? It is all in the mind's eye. |
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Time out of water