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Posts: 1636
| I've talked to a lot of guides who guide for muskies and other species. They all have stories or have mentioned people that get angry at them for not "putting them on fish."
Now you can teach them, tell stores, and all the stuff that should be included in a guided trip... but what do you do once someone does get angry and it seems like things may get out of hand?
Edited by Reelwise 1/25/2007 10:12 AM
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I guided pretty much full time for a number of summers, and despite the fact I clearly state there are no guarantees for putting a Muskie in the boat, had a few folks that just didn't understand that some days no muskies will show no matter what I do. Never had one 'get out of hand', but I did have a few get pretty uptight. I volunteer to take them in and call it a day, then reminding them it could be....the very next cast. Sometimes it actually wasn't far off of that, and things changed rapidly. Other days there was nothing to be done for it (even moving lake to lake didn't work), the Muskies plain had lockjaw. Most get over it.
Most of my clients seem to really enjoy the day. I do my best to instruct, entertain,show the water well enough so they don't need to hire me again, and get them on the fish. The rest is up, unfortunately, to the Muskies. |
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Posts: 793
Location: Ames, Iowa | I went out with Jim Murphy on August 6, 2001. It was a very hot and sunny day out and Jim gave me the option of splitting the day into two four hour parts. I didn't, and caught no fish that day but saw him catch a nice little muskie on a topwater. I learned a ton of stuff from him that I use now- like topwaters can be a good bait anytime. He was encouraging, said I was doing everything right, just to keep working at it and it will come. Also it was clear to me before the trip that he was not guaranteeing fish. I think that as long as a guide makes that statement or has that kind of statement on a website so that the average idiot knows that, there is nothing more to say. If I wanted a fish guarantee I'm smart enough to know that the only person I'll get it from is the guy behind the meat counter. When the day ended with Jim, I paid him the rest of what I owed and said thanks a lot. He didn't apologize for the fishing nor did he have to. Communication between the guide and client worked for us. Plus if I hadn't paid him he'd a kicked my butt.
Don |
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Posts: 227
Location: Southeast Wisconsin | I had a guy drive from MN to fish with me a couple summers ago for 2 days and not catch a fish. At the end of the trip he was literally screaming at me beacause he didnt get one, and I had caught 4. I calmly reminded him that he had 3 fish hit his baits over the weekend and that I couldnt set the hook for him. This only enraged him further and after a couple more minutes of him screaming at me I told him that had he listened to me in the first place and done a proper figure 8 after every cast we wouldnt be in this situation in the first place. He apoligized, paid his balance and left. I got a letter from him 3 weeks later with a $50 tip and a note saying again how he was sorry for giving me a hard time. He also went on to say that he had caught a 45" musky that week on a figure 8..LOL
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| I think there comes a time when a guide needs to let his client catch fish...not naming any guides, but I've heard stories about the guide going through a spot first!!  I can honestly say I've heard ALOT more good than bad over the years...and the guys complaining are just that...complainers!
Edited by Donnie3737 1/25/2007 1:29 PM
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | I am curious as to how you guides feel about customers using GPS to mark the spots you give them. The topic has come up with various guides I know, some would be more then willing, others absolutely refuse and would rather end the day. Any thoughts? |
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| Anyone that hires a guide expecting to be put on fish or somehow "gauranteed" to be put on fish has set their expectations too high...
Hiring a guide should be more about learning new bodies of water, techniques, etc etc etc...catching a fish is a bonus ...muskies are muskies and aren't just going to bite your clients bait cuz he paid you some money....
as far as gps, well I think that is a guides preference if he or she would want to allow that...you are being paid to show people certain spots etc and can't get too bent out of shape if the next day you return and see one of your clients on that spot...
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| Good question Musky Brian. I'd also like to know the answer to that. |
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Posts: 172
| Like anything else in life, there is good guides and bad guides. The old 80/20 rule. The 20% give a bad name to the 80% who are good.
Donnie, I don't know if you remember this or not, but back in 1996 we booked a trip to Andy Meyers lodge. We booked Steve for 2 days. Steve being the blonde that he is, over booked himself and could only give us 1 day. You took us out 1 evening on Eagle and 1 day to the Indian Chain and did not charge us. Good Guide.
By the way...did not see any fish on Eagle with you, but we got 5 on the Indian Chain. Nothing big, but it was a blast.
Bob |
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| Bob,
Yep...I do remember...and YES, Herbie is great at what he does...fishing...and has now made running a resort an art. Thanks for the compliment, and I hope to run into you someday again....maybe at AML, since that is the only place I go any more!!
Donnie  |
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have no problem with a client using his/her GPS to mark spots. What, it's some sort of freaking secret? What am I paid for if not to show good productive water and techniques to the client? If one wants to keep clients off the water they fish later, they are not a GUIDE, they are an OUTFITTER. Big difference.
IMHO, an Outfitter is one hired to take the client to a trophy or other desirable Muskie, and hopefully have the Client catch same. Usually, the Outfitter is on water hard to access or understand or in an area off the beaten path, and may even be on private waters. This description parallels Hunting Guides and Outfitters, again completely different expectations in my opinion. I hunt Wyoming with an Outfitter, LLano Outfitters on the Triple T near Kaycee. Private Ranch, select trophy hunting; the Outfitter may even select the animal, and say, "Go stalk that Antelope, and shoot it!". I hunted another area open to the public one day with a Guide so I knew what to look for and what to do the rest of the week while hunting with no Guide.
Guides like to sit around the fire and spit in it after a day on the water. I guess they like the sound of it sizzling. Outfitters call their Clients "Champs" or "Sports". Other Outfitters know what they mean. ( Paraphrasing Ed Zern). |
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Posts: 663
| A number of years back I hired a very well known guide to fish some water I was compeletely unfamiliar with. I asked if he would mind if I marked my map or used my GPS to keep track of some spots. He was extremely gracious and not only allowed that but offered to point out some other spots I should try. The key was this: he said "there are no secrets IN my boat". I took the hint and since I started guiding have followed that line of thinking. A client hires me for a variety of reasons and the most important one is for him to learn from whatever knowledge I can pass along. The client pays good money expecting to at least come away with something from his day on the water. We always want clients to catch fish but frankly I've had some of my clients give me the biggest accolades on fishless days when I was busting my butt to try to make things happen. Explaining why we were trying different things or presentations seemed to help them understand more about musky fishing. Guiding is easy when you hit one of those great days when the fish are snapping.
Now I've seen some guys who get upset when they talk to a guide at a boat landing, bait shop, or sports show and want the guide to give them all the goodies but not willing to hire them for a day. Kind of like asking your brother in law for tax, legal or medical advice just because they may have that knowledge. |
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| I have always encouraged the marking of maps and have never had a problem with clients using GPS units to "nail" them. Just because they can find the spot in their limited time on the water doesn't mean that the timing is right or that they approach and/or fish it from the right direction or distance. There is a lot more to a "spot" than just knowing where it is!
As Pete indicated, and something that has always been a mystery to me, I have many times gotten some of the best acolades (and tips in some cases) from clients that didn't catch a fish, and in some cases didn't even see any! Go figure. Have never had anyone holler at me for not catching a fish. Must be doing something right.
Looking forward to 2007!
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I have never had a problem with people marking spots on their GPS and have had paople leave their GPS on all day while we were motoring around to help them find their way when fishing on their own. I agree with Larry that just marking a spot is the easy part, with timing and intimate knowledge of the spot having more to do with success than just knowing where the "spot" is.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 175
| I went on a fly-in trip to Wollaston Lake. The guide had a fit when I got my GPS out. I wanted to mark home in case he went tits up. He said I could drive up (800 miles of dirt road, yea right) and fish his spots. Needless to say we didn't hit it off too well. LMAO. |
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Posts: 1530
| on st clair i always chucled when guiding fellas. they would mark way points. the fish move daily on the open waters. one story. i had a group out after 1 1/2 hous into the trip a major storm front was barreling down. the rods were buzzing from static. they were upset as we headed back to dockside. 2 muskies 1 pike. i offered to re-book and and there was obviously no charge for the time we fished. they were mad puppies. some times a little common sense is in order. safety comes first on the waters.. one thing never mentioned. how about obnoxious drunk customers? |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | It is a very rare thing to have a client angry at the fact we did not boat a fish. Disappointed, yes, and I completely understand that. Usually the day they have hired me is the day they have pinned the highest expectations on, unfortunately things don't always align right for "their" day.
Some of my favorite client experiences come from those that had a slow time on the water during our trip, but later in the week bang several fish using the same tactics and spots we used that day. Those emails always bring a smile to my face and I am quite sure to theirs too.
One of the unfortunate things with the internet and readily available pictures of big fish is that they raise some people's expectations to an artificially high level. Every week during season there are more pictures of people holding big fish, and clients sometimes expect a guide to be able to put them on 30# fish automatically, after all, all the guys on all the websites are holding big fish. I once had a client book me for a half day, he had never caught a musky before. In his five hour trip he managed not only his first musky but also his second, and yet was somewhat disappointed because the 38"er didn't live up to his 50" expectations. Its a tough deal trying to deal with disappointment after a 2 fish afternoon. Those are the toughest clients, the ones with hugely high expectations for the day.
Most people with knowledge of our wacky sport hire guides for the right reasons. To learn a body of water, learn techniques and current patterns. Those clients are a joy to deal with, give them an honest effort and they will be happy.
As far as GPS's in the boat, not a problem at all. I will hold nothing back on someone that thought enough of me to hire me for a day. I will mark up their maps as much as they wish, or if time is running short, even approach an area without fishing it just so they can mark it. I want my clients to catch fish. Happy clients generally result in more business! |
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Posts: 1636
| Thanks for all the input guys, appreciate it. |
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Posts: 376
Location: Lake Vermilion Tower, MN | I always get a kick out of the guys that try to hide the fact that they are using a GPS to mark the spots we fish.
Like I won't notice them going into their bag eveytime we stop. I have even let guys put their chip in my GPS, so they can follow the track. Vermilion is a big lake, it's a tough lake to learn in just a day. All I ever ask is that the waypoints don't end up on every muskie site on the planet.
As for unhappy or angry customers, I really don't know what you mean. :)
"Ace"
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin |
Well, the most improtant thing I do is to inform the clients of what is going on at that time on the lake. Helping them choose the best patterns that would be their type of fishing. Like maybe casting a top water or bucktail over new weeds, maybe casting a crankbait picking apart weed beds and points, or crashing rocks. What do they like to fish? Can they fish hard and do what it takes to have a high percentage outing? Maybe they should wait and do a trolling date or a 1/2 casting 1/2 trolling.
I know I am rambling here but the point is to know what your clients want to learn, do and enjoy. I make sure they know everything about the trip on that time of the season. I have a hard time getting everyone into the patterns they like to fish.
A season in my area will have lots of changing patterns throught the year. Getting the clients on what they like to do is also my job. A date is more than just a name and number in my calender. It's their money and the expectations are always high. Talking to your clients along the way to this dates is huge. It increases their awarenes to what is going on. They know what to expect and what can happen.
Weather is one of the uncontrolable issues, that is explained to all my clients at one point before or during the outing. Addapting to the conditions is a learning experiance and will help in the future.
There was one client I remember who asked in the first hour about a guarentee of fish. I told him I have one guarentee that I offer. He asked what it was. I told him I would offer him a free trip if we didn't catch a muskie if we trolled or we both casted. He quickly agreed. I told him I was not done explaining the rest of the rules. If we caught 1 muskie he would have to pay for the trip, if we caught 2 muskies he would have to pay double, and if we caught 3 the price will triple. He laughed and we fished the rest of the trip. He did catch a low 40's and was very happy. If he had not caught a fish he might have been unhappy but he did learn the lake and got a marked map. We also raised plenty of fish and he had chances to boat others if he could get better at the 8. We worked on that a lot. |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | "As far as GPS's in the boat, not a problem at all. I will hold nothing back on someone that thought enough of me to hire me for a day. I will mark up their maps as much as they wish, or if time is running short, even approach an area without fishing it just so they can mark it. I want my clients to catch fish. Happy clients generally result in more business! "
I don't personally know NWILD, but I'd say this guide is a class act. When I hire a guide it's usually because I'll be fishing that water in the following days or sometime in future. I want to learn the lake, patterns, etc., and anything else i can learn from the guide. He is the expert who has the knowledge that I want.
I would asssume that it's much easier for a guide to help a client put a fish in the boat than it is spend his day imparting his knowledge and techniques. The later impresses me as a much more difficult activity.
I see guides as teachers .... and I know that teaching is takes a lot of energy and thought. Thinking to one's self is quite different than actually articulating thoughts into words.
Hats-off to most guides.
Craig
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| as a client...you're paying for that "spot" information and it is yours to mark any way you like...i.e. gps or marking it on a map... |
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Posts: 7088
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | as a client...you're paying for that "spot" information and it is yours to mark any way you like...i.e. gps or marking it on a map...
Guest, just as you are a guest on M1st, a client is a 'guest' in a guide's boat for a day. Yes, they are a paying guest, but a guest none the less. If a guide has his policies, and they run contrary to the wishes of the client and they are that important an issue, then the client should have asked either at the dock, or previous to booking the date. Same goes for (at least in my mind) the sticky issues of:
-does the guide fish during the guide date?
-" " " " " from the front of the boat during the guide date?
-" " " " run the boat from the front, but not fish?
-" " " " hand a rod off or not?
-" " mark a map for you at the end of the day?
-" " provide gear?
-" " " lunch?
-" " etc etc etc.
All guides are different in their philosophies towards how they run their office, as are all business people. If you get in a boat with a guide, and his philosophies run contrary to you, shame on you for not checking into these things prior to booking the day. Most business people are fine with you asking questions about what you are about to buy/put a deposit down on, before you actually do this. If you dont ask, not the guide's fault. |
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| I use to guide on lake oahe , and columbia river in all the years i guided i only had one client i had to bring back to the dock, he had a little too many can crappies. use to guide back in 1962 and told me i didnt know what i was doing that i did not know how to run a boat and said i was the worst guide he ever hired, he was so drunk he could barley walk to his car, i called the sheriff he spent the night in the drunk tank, never seen him again.i think the guides should create a black list for bad clients. after 10 years and hundreds of happy clients he was the only one i could not get along with. some of my best friends were met while guideing. |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Can't say that I've ever had anyone who didn't have a pretty good time, and no one who ever got mad or angry. Sort of tells you a lot about the LOTWs.
It's always a pretty good time even if the fish don't allways cooperate.
As far as GPS's and maps go, I always tell folks if they want to bring a map so they can follow along where we are to do it. It'll help them learn how to navagite
on a lake this size with thousands of islands that sort of look alike, with lots of rocks that are just below the surface and not really marked in anyway. I really
think that learning how to navagite the LOTWs is probably more important than the actual spots, as almost every good looking spot really is good! All I really
ask for folks that bring and mark maps is that they don't show up with them at their next club meeting and show the world. It's your information, try and
keep it that way.
Here's my thoughts on GPS's. If you use them for just marking spots (just like a map), and don't use it to create a trail to follow I guess it's O.K. The biggest reason
I don't like trail usage is because of inaccuracies in the GPS maps. I see many times during the course of a day that my GPS will show my trail going over dry land
or on the wrong side of a bouy, or over the top of a reef, and yet I know that I'm not doing that. To use a trail that was created when you're in my boat is asking
for trouble. I often go very close to underwater reefs and points that entend out from shore that don't necessary show up on maps or or GPS units just because
I know they are there. I'd much rather you go where the map shows it's safe rather than what I do, as sometimes I go through places that no one in their right
mind would go. To follow a trail I created could cost you a lower unit.
Doug Johnson |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | dougj - 1/27/2007 8:55 PM
The biggest reason
I don't like trail usage is because of inaccuracies in the GPS maps. I see many times during the course of a day that my GPS will show my trail going over dry land
or on the wrong side of a bouy, or over the top of a reef, and yet I know that I'm not doing that. To use a trail that was created when you're in my boat is asking
for trouble. Doug Johnson
So very true Doug. I've seen it that our trail was on the wrong side of the bouys on the trip back. Best to watch the maps and use the GPS for directions.
Edited by muskie! nut 1/27/2007 10:05 PM
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Posts: 956
Location: Home of the 2016 World Series Champion Cubs | I have to say that I have encountered one of the best guides in the business. It began on my first trip ever to LOW/ Sab Bay/Nestor Falls. You know, the part of the lake that gets very little pressure. Any way, about 95 % of the spots he put us on we moved, hooked and or landed fish. Toward the end of the day he had asked if I was marking all of the spots in "one of those new electronic gizmos?" I truthfully replied no. I didnt even have my GPS in the boat. I was getting pissed at myself for forgettinig it at that point. At the end of the day he sat down without hasitation and proceeded to mark each and every spot we fished, several others we didnt, added footnotes for each, noted unmarked hazards and so on. Mind you this is an area of LOW that gets as much pressure if not more than any other on the lake. Later that trip we retraced in part and even in entirity the maps he marked. The results.........................not even close to what we had with Lawrence (not Larry) in the boat. He knew "what was going on" and "why" in addition to likely spots and put it all together for us. Yes this was my first trip to Canada for muskies very early on in my muskie days so of course I was very green so to speak. I was somewhat in awe and overwhelmed on this my first trip to LOW, a true muskie haven. I tried but retained a few mere tidbits of true muskie knowledge. Each year ive returned I have booked days with him. Each time became more about learning the whats and whys as opposed to the where's or even the #'s, as Larry Ramsell has previously stated on this thread. What Im getting at is what I feel makes Lawrence a great guide is his openminded approach. He pretty much gave us what we wanted and held nothing back. In fact he offered even more than what we shared that day on the water. marked spots we didnt have time to get to etc. he earned my loayalty for trips in years to come. I was myself wondering how many productive spots he was actually going to take us to since it was nearly one after another all day long..He'll be quik to tell anyone though, any fool can happen upon a "good spot" but its the educated angler who will move/catch the fish based on what knowledge they possess. Dumb luck excluded of course. In the subsequent trips i have been able to put many pieces together in my head and used them. I have since passed spots Larry took us to, on purpose. And Lawrence would be glad to hear that. His teaching is getting through and making a difference. Fish productive waters/structure at the right times. Now hes had the opportunity to school me on Crow Lake a couple of times. He's no, spring chicken though has quite the personality and attitude. Lets loose with smart a$$ed comments when called for and knows how to take em also. Knowing his teaching style and the fact the he truely knows those waters, I'll be sure to hire him again. I got lucky when I met him. we should all be so lucky.
There was another guide I did not care for for all he did was drive the boat aroung the lake and tell me to throw a black buck tail. AT EVERY SPOT!!! No instructions or insight on what type of structure etc,. And marking a map at the end of the day....FUGITT ABOUT IT!!!!!!
The most important thing Ive learned about guides is ask before you book. Dont let that "dumb" question go unasked/unanswered and result in you being dissatisfied.
Okay I think I'll stop now.
Karl |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Great post Karl. Good guides will go out of their way to make sure you get everything your looking for on a guide trip.
I can't stress enough the importance of talking to your guide/clients before the trip and knowing what to expect. (Yes, bring your GPS Karl) I bet thats what he would have said. Great guides are teachers not just a price on a boat ride and some fishing.
ASK QUESTIONS before, during and after the guide trip. You will be happy you did, most people don't ask enough questions. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | my first time ever out with a guide was a couple years ago on a big well known lake in wisconsin. i
guess he was a well known guide too. it was my first time on this huge lake. we fish a few spots and on the third or fourth spot
the guide catches a small musky. i have no idea where we are on the lake as he didnt explain anything
about the names of the islands or part of the lake we were fishing or passed on the way there. i ask "should i mark this spot on my gps?" he then goes
on this big speech on why i cant becasue they will end up online and says at the end of the day
he will mark all the spots he fishes on a map. ok, i was fine with that if he will mark up my map even tough i did just spend 250 on a gps and wont be able to us it.
well the end of the day comes
and after he caught all the fish he didnt mark the map and tried to charge for a full day not half. thats an example
where i the client wasnt very happy with the guide. i actually thought he was a good guide because
it was my first guide until this year i tried a new guide and found out what a real guide was |
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Clients not happy?