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Posts: 194
| I was hoping to respond in a positive manor to the frozen "Broken Snap" thread. I would like to offer a possible solution or two. First off, I prefer to use a split ring instead of a snap. I put one on every bait so they don't have to be pried open quite as far every time I decide to change lures. You'll see what I mean if you try to keep your split ring on your leader (the wire on a leader is much thinner then the eyelet on your bait). I haven't caught enough fish to proclaim, from my experiences, that this will never fail, but I know a couple guides from Hayward who swear by this technique. One of which puts around 175 fish in his boat every year. I realize this can get a little pricey, especially if you have a ton of baits, but it's worth it IMO. I prefer to use the larger size Bucher split rings (#7 size?). They seem to hold their shape the best. I have a ton of the older olive green ones, but I think they quit making them because the process was a real nasty chemical reaction that turned them that color. I believe they are now stainless steel. I haven't tried the SS ones yet, but I bet they work just as well. The next best option is to get a few "Super Snaps". These are hand tied snaps from American Hardwood Lures. They use wire so thick you can barely get one open on purpose, let alone have any fish open one on you. I tie them into my home-made Quick-set rigs, but they would work great in place of split rings if you must use a snap. These snaps are available at www.musky-lures.com and I think they cost around $3-4 each. If a guy bought three or four and some leader wire, they could be tied up over and over as the leader wire gets worn. Remember to change your leader wire from time to time as this will wear out too. I realize $3-4 is a lot to pay for a single snap, but I would look at it as insurance. How much would it cost to replace your favorite lure if you lost it to snap failure. Plus it might just save a fish from a slow death due to a big ole bait stuck in its face. |
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Posts: 786
Location: Minnesota | RE: Don't buy cheap snaps!
I agree Hulbert. I went with cheaper 65lb PowerPro and I wish I had gone with 100lb for just a few more bucks. Lost a Cowgirl and a big Bull Dawg this year. Cost me a LOT more than the few bucks to just buy the 100lb line over the 65lb line. As for my reels, still working on that one  May start selling Shimano reels soon just so I can get them wholesale! lol |
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| it's actually not hard to use the 500 lb wire from stamina and make your own stayloc type snaps. i've been doing it for the last year.
they work fine, no problems.
if you can make leaders, you can make snaps. |
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Posts: 1462
Location: Davenport, IA | I had been using #4 stringease stay-loc snaps but had one break in the net recently...along with a bucher spring ring (on a differant fish) But I don't worry about it too much. Fish can't twist like that on the way in. I used to put snaps on all the lures but it was a PITA IMO. I use #6 coastloc snaps now (never had one open) |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | i have found the #5 stringease snaps to be the best out there, i use those mainly on our stealth leaders, i get alot of requests for #4 snaps which i do carry and put on upon request but i would recommend sticking with the #5s i also use solid rings on the fluoro leaders so you can split ring direct to a bait! quality hardware is the only way to go!!! from the looks in that picture of the broken snap it appears to me it should have been switched out way before it broke! either way you should keep a close eye on your snaps and change them out when they feel they are getting easier to close or the paint wearing off. |
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| Don't use snaps.
Buy good split rings and a coil of wire, and use a split ring on the nose of every lure.
Make your own leaders with a solid ring on one side and a loop in the wire on the other.
For bucktails, use a ballbearing swivel on one end and a loop on the other and add a splitring to the bucktail.
I've had the best snaps open, but never had a splitring open.
Beav |
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Posts: 8856
| Since I was the one who posted the original thread I may as well tell the rest of the story...
As most of you know I spend a considerable amount of time here on the musky forums. I've read all the tackle related topics with great interest, and I've made it a point to always have what I consider to be the best quality equipment, line, and terminal tackle. I go overboard -- checking my line every time out, re-tie after every fish, retie after every day on the water. I normally use the 150# stringease leaders with the 400# wire. I run bronzeback and spectron on all my reels. I flip the line once and toss it after season #2. I've even switched to 130# line on a couple reels. Remember the thread about split rings straightening out on bulldawgs? I changed 'em ALL after that, 56 split rings on 27 bulldawgs, because one or two guys had them straighten out...
I am about as anal as you can get when it comes to that stuff, I even glue my knots.
Fast forward to last Friday:
Rigging up a sucker with a stay lok snap when you're wearing gloves can get pretty irritating, right? So I grabbed the "other" snap... It had been laying around since before I discovered stay-loks, back when I thought a snap was a snap.
"It's never been used, It won't break. It may wear out sooner, but these are so much easier to get the rubber band on and easier to close. May as well use it a couple times before I throw it out. What are the chances it will break?"
So round about 4:00 I hear that sound
"Bbzbzzt!!"
Grab the sucker rod, thumb the spool... Ooooh, I think that's a fish!! I hand the rod to my buddy and I say "Hey, check it out, that's a fish ain't it" Having only sucker fished a handful of times I wanted to be absolutely sure, as we were down to one sucker. He agrees, it's a fish! I take the rod back, and reel down to the water.
Ooooh, here we go! I'm jumpin out of my skin, man!!
*WHAM!* I hit that ###### with everything I had! and NOTHING...
What the $%&*? How could I miss that fish?
Then I reeled up the line to find no sucker, no rig, and a snap that was straigtened out like a paper clip.
So not only did I lose the sucker and the rig, I probably killed that fish. Nice way to end the season, huh?
"I'll just use this snap a couple times and THEN throw it out. It won't break..."
All the cheap snaps and swivels went in the garbage. So did the leaders with paint worn off.
I know a lot of you guys are on tight budgets. I am too. I get stupid buying musky stuff, I have a bunch of stuff I don't need that I shouldn't have bought. But after what happened Friday? I'd rather sell my favorite baits and buy #5 stay lok snaps, or buy #7 Bucher rings and split ring all my baits.
That could have been my personal best. I could have been someone else's fish of a lifetime. It will probably wind up being a tasty meal for turtles and crayfish now, all because I decided to use a snap I probably spend a dollar on instead of throwing it out.
Like I said yesterday:
DON'T buy cheap snaps!
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Location: Contrarian Island | I agree with John, the #5's he uses on his leaders are very strong..should they be switched out after alot of use ..yes I think so...
for piece of mind I use split rings on most of my leaders..bucher #7's...
use good line, good components on your leaders and always switch out weak split rings that hang the hooks..there are alot of manufacturers using very weak stuff.....
Edited by MSKY HNR 11/28/2006 10:14 AM
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Posts: 8856
| LOL
John's leaders are why I switched to a cheap snap!
Bette, it's all your fault |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | my guess here is that mike and brad put enough of a test on terminal tackle to deliver a pretty good percentage of failure and recommendation for what to use if you have a question. will be fun to watch this one grow into nebulon again. |
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Posts: 8856
| Just to clarify -- I'm not questioning the integrity of John's leaders! I have full confidence in their ability to withstand anyhting a fish can throw at them. But the #5 stay-lok snaps are a real bear to fasten when they are fresh out of the package, you're wearing gloves, and you're fighing with a sucker that's trying to get away.
Proving once again that being lazy doesn't get you very far. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | "because they are a bear to fasten when NEW" .... EXACTLY!! ... take your gloves off. there are many different ways to rig the sucker to make it easier, quicker and safer depending on what type of rig you fish with too. i use a rubber band lift-off, and put the rubber band in the nose first ... attache the hooks to the sucker second and put the split ring from the rig into the snap last .... fasten it with my hands holding the face of the sucker ... a couple minutes max, fish is rigged and swimming ... hooks are never dangling anywhere anytime. |
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Posts: 8856
| Sled... I don't care about how difficult it is to rig a sucker, I just want the little bugger to stay attached when I set the hook like a gorilla! I knew better, and I used it anyway...
Cheap stuff breaks. I proved that.
So I quit using cheap stuff.
My hope is that someone else here will do the same before they learn the hard way.
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| Jeff
like i said
i know you're a tinkerer (and guitar player by nature), so i'll take it as you being as anal as I am, and as obsessive about certain things as i am.
buy a coil of the 500 lb wire from stamina. http://staminainc.com/wireforms/leader_wire/steelwire.html i think it's about 30 feet of wire.
MAKE your own staylocks over the winter...you won't regret it. the great thing about it is, you can make different sizes and it only takes about 10 minutes with:
a pair of forceps
wire pliers (the round ones)
a dubrows leader maker will get you nice tight twists, but once u start doing it, you can get them just as tight with the round pliers
i've broken every size NEW staylock this year (backlash with a weagle, snagged DR and believe it or not a small one broke the first time i opened it to put a rattle trap on my dad's rig)....last year, i used the same LARGE one for 3 months (ignorance) and its still intact. go figure.
i love those snaps, i really do..the design is ingenious...but now, i like mine better for the bigger baits and bigger applications that i can use them on....(esp. trolling). you can customize them too (deeper loops for more action, tighter arm and 3/4 circle armhang ... if you are going to use them....i'd personally recommend using the biggest staylock they make. thicker wire being the reason and they're easier to manipulate.
that sux to hear about the fish, it really does. |
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Location: 31 | You guys who make your own leaders and prefer snaps over split rings should strongly consider making your own snaps like Yeti says. I've been making my version of the Sampo snap for longer than I've been fishing the Ottawa (12 years) without one breakage... and I don't hesitate to reuse them.
I used the cross locks before and had problems because the wire Berkley uses is so brittle and cheap. It's not just how heavy the wire is, it's the quality and how it's tempered. I use the 360lb .043 bronze with a longer tag end... maybe 3/16" or so, you could also easily copy any snap out there.
I'd be happy to send one of my snaps to anyone interested in making their own if you drop me your address. My little Merry Christmas to you:) [email protected]
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | can you guys post a picture of them? |
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Posts: 3918
| Yea, how do you make them snaps? Can you post a pic and give a step by step? |
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| I could "try" to post a picture later on or just send you one to copy... or just pick up one of your Bass pro fishing catalog and check out the Sampo snap picture
The tag end I was referring to is the end you thread threw the eye of your bait. Specifically, it's the end of the loop you hook directly to the wire. The tag end loop on the factory Sampo snaps are only about 1/8" long and the ones I make out of better wire are 3/16"... maybe even a 1/4" depending on how you measure it. The beauty of adding that extra length is it takes 2 thumbs and a twist to open and does not interfere with changing baits quickly, unless you still use the small bass size screw eyes.
I've seen the split rings method "work off" the wire while using gliders and these snaps with the longer tag end "could" be opened up if a fish hits it just right I guess. Nothing in this world is 100% fool proof, but these snaps are the best I could come up with.
I showed a lure maker friend of mind the snap and he started making them for sale ($1 each) on his web site.
http://www.musky-lures.com/
I personally think he made them too big and heavy duty, if your using big baits or need a snap for your mast planer boards  these are hard to beat though. |
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Posts: 8856
| Sled, that's a really good idea!
I'm going to try that and see how it goes.
Thanks, man. |
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| HA! I was going back and reading the entire thread and noticed Kasmuskie first post also mentioned AHW's (Mick's) web site with the "snaps that can be handed down to your grandchildren" ... guess it's a small muskie world.
While we're on the subject of leaders...
Something else I do a little different while making solid wire leaders is a drop of nail polish on the wire leader wrap itself at the BB swivel end. I've noticed a problem while casting (mainly jigs and gliders) when the line itself becomes wrapped around the leader and rubs against the exposed sharp end of the wire. A drop of nail polish not only prevents premature line wear it also helps keep the line from staying wrapped around the leader in the first place. You can also use different colored nail polish for different size leaders to easily tell them apart.
While we're on the subject of jigs...
I make an attached solid wire leader to every jig without a snap mainly because the snap is usually too big to get threw the jigs attachment eye, plus the snap now becomes a collection point for that crummy bottom goop. So I just attach the leader wire directly to the jig, a real neat trick is to leave the end of the wire with a 1/2" tag end and bend it toward the jig like a brush guard, this works like a charm to keep stuff from gathering on the jig head.
"My hope is that someone else here will do the same before they learn the hard way." Agreed...
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Posts: 2378
| Ranger - 11/29/2006 1:04 AM
Yea, how do you make them snaps? Can you post a pic and give a step by step?
Its really easy. If you can make a leader, you can make a snap. Just take a look at any commercial snap, and you should be able to see the sequence of bends required to get what you are looking for.
I'll try to take some pics tonight and post them for you to take a look at. |
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| Stay Loc #5 Snaps, and Bucher #7 Split Rings for me, nothing less. Your terminal tackle is the weakest link in your system given the strength of today's superbraids, so don't short cut using cheap hooks, snaps, or split rings. I watched my friend loose the fish of a lifetime because of a cheap hook, and that leason really proved the point for me.  |
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Posts: 2378
| pictures of the process
this one is a little bigger than normal and not proportioned right, but it should help show the steps required.
made from .051" wire
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Posts: 20269
Location: oswego, il | I have made my own snaps like baldy has shown there as well using 360lb leader material. Only difference is, I make my loop push against the wire to keep it from opening instead of being in the middle of the end that hooks. |
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Posts: 194
| Jerry, that kills me. I was reading your post about how you showed your Lure making buddy. Classic. Those snaps are the bomb. I thought they were a bit pricier, but I never paid for any either. Small world indeed. If you're ever in Madison, look me up. Phil can get you my digits. |
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Location: 31 | After the realization came over me that it was AHL's super snap I just cracked up too. I've been fishing with Mic for over 20 years - great guy and an even better fisherman. I'll forward a link to Mick and get your number, any friend of his is a friend of mine.
I think Baldy's .051 and Todd's .043 size is the best all around gauge wire to use, I also like that design too. I honestly think any of the common designs made with good quality SS wire are going to be light years ahead of the same in store bought. Like I also said, I think Mick's are too heavy for the average guy to make and not matched well for smaller baits... but you could pull your truck out of the ditch with one too eh' Cheers.
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Location: 31 | OK, that was my first ever attempt at posting a picture, just wanted to make sure first... oh yeah!
The 2 big snaps are the AHL Super snaps with long tag ends.
The 2 at the bottom and 1 at the top in the pliers are the ones I make out of .043, I set the one in the pliers so you could clearly see the shadow of the longer tag end. I also stuck the swivel end of one of my leaders with the nail polish so you could see that deal too. A picture is worth a 1000 words...
The other snaps are some store bought I had laying around for comparison, you could also make the little arm guard deal if your concerned about them opening up. |
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Posts: 786
Location: Minnesota | Can you guys post a picture of the bender you use? Or post if it was needle nose pliars?
TIA,
James |
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Posts: 194
| The super snap is $1. I screwed that up earlier. They are available at www.musky-lures.com Or you might be able to find Mick (Phil Drury) at some of the fishing shows this winter. |
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Posts: 2378
| Grunt Lures - 11/30/2006 6:10 AM
Can you guys post a picture of the bender you use? Or post if it was needle nose pliars?
TIA,
James
I made the whole thing with a round nose pliers. A Boggs would work well also |
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| I went to split rings for total piece of mind...I'm really not sure I trust a snap completely...I would never recommend putting any kind of snap on a quick set sucker rig as the hooksets just seem to jarring to me to trust any snap...use split rings and solid rings on your quicksets and watch out for store bought quick sets with crappy crimp jobs...
Also, for any of you that fish in cold weather...changing lures with snaps when your hands are freezing is a b*tch...that is another bonus of going to split rings....just a couple thoughts.... |
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| I've spent a lot of time with the split ring thing. They are NOT foolproof and I have a rad dog sitting on the bottom of LOTWs to prove it. The ring can catch on the wire and work its way off if you're not paying close attention; even a brand new ring can do that and the impending failure is less noticeable than an open snap. After using splitrigs for two years I'd say the potential failure rate is about the same as a stay-lock snap. Failures of decent snaps are 99% of the time a result not paying attention to them. If you don't pay attention to your split ring connections they can fail, too, as I've described above. My conclusion is that either is fine and you need to pay attention to both. I went back to stay-lock snaps because I don't need a split ring pliers to change baits. More time fishing = more fish in the boat.
As for dealing with the sharp cut ends of wire on the leader wire wraps, just squash the ends down with a pliers against the wire shaft or bend them back and forth to break the wire off instead of cutting it. Either method will result in a smooth leader.
As for the snap going bad on a sucker rig (the story at the beginning of the thread) I'd be any money it wasn't closed right. |
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Posts: 8856
| Look at a cheap snap (not a cross-lok, stay-lok, etc.)
If you slide the loop from your sucker rig up over the part where the snap fastens, and exert force where the line attaches, I'd be willing to bet that snap's going to open right up. Same thing will happen if you lower the rod tip and your weight flips the snap upside down.
Lower the rod tip, muskie's got the sucker T boned, set the hook, snap opens, straightens out and you're finished.
A stay-lok probably would have bent up pretty good, but I suspect it would have held up.
And like Sled mentioned -- if they're easy to fasten? Guess what, they're easy to open, too.
If I hadn't cut up my cheap snaps with knipex before I threw them out I could actually test my theory... |
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| Guest, I agree that the split ring leader deal can be a problem, particularly with gliders and jerkbaits like I said on page 1 of this thread... I'm really glad you posted that info because it supports my findings with those type of baits. I also witnessed a glider come off a snap leader and the wire work into the snap a few times first hand as well.
However, an exception might be with suckers like BN and Esox addict are saying though because when a muskie grabs the head of the sucker (or any lure) it could certainly open up a conventional snap, (not the super snap) I don't sucker fish much so I can't really say but certainly understand, and it's a very valid point.
Nothing in this world is 100% fool proof and the snaps with the long tag end are the best all around answer I could come up with for my style of fishing, for big baits the super snap is still the nuts though.
Guest said: "As for dealing with the sharp cut ends of wire on the leader wire wraps, just squash the ends down with a pliers against the wire shaft or bend them back and forth to break the wire off instead of cutting it. Either method will result in a smooth leader."
I would hope you can tell I know enough about leader making to understand that snapping off the tag end is the best (only) way, I get complements on my leaders and snaps from an good friend who's an orthodontist anyway: )
We've all had the line wrap around the end of the leader before and I'm telling you there is a sharp edge that will come in contact with your line... no matter how you "slice it".
I'm very confident I lost about a 4'er on LOTW in 1989 on a jig because of it, afterward I started to noticed wear on the line and matched it up to the line wrapping around the leader so I'm speaking from long experience here.
Check it out for yourself though, as you should, it's certainly not as big of a problem with the 80lb super lines of today as it was with the 30lb Dacron I was using back then.
BN, It's funny you should say that snaps are a harder to change than split rings because I find just the opposite to be true, so to each his own I guess. At least this way you are aware of the potential problem with the rings working off just as I'm aware of the potential of a snap opening up when a fish hits it.
I'm not trying to come off as a know it all here, however, I've certainly encountered and addressed these problems first hand and just not handing you guys something I read in an article.
Hopefully my troubles and solutions helps you in some small (or big?) way.
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Posts: 32953
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The answer to this entire debate is really very simple, it just requires more work than most (including me) are willing to do. Attach a permanent leader to every bait you have, and when changing lures just tie a new knot. Really, what are we talking about for most days, 15 minutes of time tying knots at the most?
I did that with my creatures for years because there were no good snaps back then, it works. |
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| Steve, I actually did a direct leader with my "A" team many moons ago and still use a direct leader with a brush guard on my jigs like you say. I can tell you it was a royal PAIN for everyday casting for my style of fishing then... being more of a troller now, I can't even imagine the hassle of retying 6 trolling rods in WI in Nov.
Either way I have my answer... answered.
First things first, my answer for everyone here would be to watch your terminal tackle closely because it's the only thing between you and your trophy and my My most sincere recommendation would be to use a super snap when possible... or a quality homemade snap with a little arm guard deal to prevent inadvertent opening (if your worried)... or a thicker gauge wire leader and tight HD split ring to keep the leader from working itself off the ring (if your worried).
I just thought the snap/split ring problem should be addressed here on Muskiefirst so people can be made more aware of their options. All require mindful application so pick your poison because nothing is 100%,,, not even a direct leader.
(My bad... I see I accidentally said "snap" in place of "split ring" on my post above this morning).
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Posts: 194
| Guest, I have lost a couple baits to the bottom of the lake because of a split ring myself. That was before I started attaching them to the lure's eye on every bait. Then I work each one onto the leader. You don't have to pry them open quite as far so the ring stays closed and doesn't work off as easily. I don't even need split-ring pliers to change baits as long as I have some finger nails. I also have developed a habit of checking the ring/leader connection about 15-20 casts. Just in case. What kind of split ring do you use? Some split rings flat out suck. Others are good. For me the #7 Bucher rings have worked well.
Brad, I'll try and bring a Super Snap to CCMI on the 11th. You might change your mind if you saw it in person. I still use split rings on my lures though. |
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Posts: 802
| here's my remedy- i have wolverine split rings on all my lures, but my system has a twist... some folks argue that the leader wire could work it's way thru the split ring end, and i agree. what i do to negate that is tie my leaders with a sampo solid ring on both ends (one to tie onto and one to connect with the split ring. now i have a low-profile leader, but one that won't let the wire slide out of the split ring. been fool-proof for years.
steve |
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Location: 31 | Bam! I like Esox69's idea a ton... it makes perfect sense to me to use a thicker material so there's less chance of the leader slipping threw the split ring. Nice work!
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| Jerry
Good point about the nail polish...i've been using small shrink tube with an adhesive on the inside....dip it in hot water. works good to cover that sharp "line grabber" part of the barrel...i was having this problem with gliders and jigs also. u can also color code it too.
baldy posted the pic and the directions..it's that easy....it really is. |
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Location: 31 | Thanks G, the polish is fast and easy for my leaders and most importantly does the job. The bottom line here is to try to try to keep those muskies from swimming away with a face full of hooks from a broken line or failed terminal tackle. One can only hope?
I actually have a good friend coming by tomorrow wanting to learn how to make snaps and watch the game as a direct result of him losing what could have been his first 50" last year on a broken, brand new (1 hour old) large Berkeley cross lock snap... it just broke. The jerkbait floated back up so no harm no foul there, and hard to feel too sorry for him because he ended up the year with 4-50's:)
Anyway, I'm heading downstairs now to tie up some bucktails (yes dear, after vacuuming) and I was going to play around with a couple of split ring leaders like Esox69's method as well... see which system he likes better tomorrow. I'm pretty well set with the snaps I make and use, but I think both methods are light-years ahead of anything you could buy in a store.
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Posts: 802
| thanks jerry- i can't claim it to be my idea, nor recall who told me about it- regardless, it's a sweet system. thorne bros had the rings in 2 different sizes i believe: either that or i pirated them off some of my other swivels!
good luck,
steve |
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