|
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | This is a subject that i have been dying to post for quite some time. First of all, i have alot of respect for the "guides" in our sport. Many of them rank as the top muskie fisherman out there. My question involves when a client captures a trophy fish and says it is his or hers personal best, when in fact the guide is actually putting that person "on" that trophy.
I have always thought that muskie fishing was comprised of finding fish (location), enticing that fish to strike, and landing the fish.
If I caught that fish of a lifetime, and didn't do these things for myself, it just wouldn't hold that satisfaction for me.
Now, this is just my opinion, and i am not anti-guide, but i wonder how some of you feel about this subject.
When i fish with a partner (good friend) we work together, in our fishing. The difference is that i am not paying that person to put me on fish.
When i speak to my friends concerning a recent catch (usually a large fish), the first question we ask is "was he or she guided?"
I'm putting this post out there to get fishermans opinions, i mean no ill will to anyone on this subject. I appreciate all opinions on this topic. Thanks, Pikiespawn | |
| | |
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Many Big Game Hunters, especially when we are talking B&C animals, hunt nearly exclusively with Outfitters if for no other reason than the Outfitter's access to the animals. Guided or not, shoot a world class buck and it's yours. the Title Outfitter is, I believe, a bit different from Guide. A guide who basically does everything for the client with little or no intention of teaching the client the area for a return trip without the guide, is really an Outfitter IMHO. It's hard work, by the way.
Most of the people who hire me are not looking for me to put them on a big fish, they are looking to learn a body of water and what works there. That's what Guides used to be all about, hence the title. I'm happy to try to put the client on a fish, that's part of the gig.
I can't troll up here because it's illegal, so the client has to place the bait, work the bait, and hook and land the fish. Yes, I'm running the boat, but what's the difference, really? How about if I'm fishing with a friend on Pelican and that friend catches a 50? Reverse things, how about if I'm fishing Moen with Theedz out of his boat while he is on the trolling motor, and I get a nice fish, if I showed him the water originally, what does that mean; am I being guided?
So really, it's a perception thing I guess, in my opinion. If I'm fishing with Herbie and get a 56, I'm gonna be happy as I can be, and so will he. Doesn't diminish the feat at all!
| |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Thanks Steve, i see your point, but i don't feel any different about hunting as i do fishing. They can count what they want, but those hunters that pay people to put them on that trophy......
Well, i just wouldn't get satisfaction from it. Now, if you are fishing with a friend that happens to be a guide........ that is different, no money is exchanging hands you are out having fun fishing together.
PS Those guys that you see on TV shooting those trophy bucks at the "buck farm" with the guides. All they do basically is pull the trigger. Well, not very sporting in my book.
Once again, just my opinion. | |
| | |
Location: Northern Wisconsin | i still get satisfaction from catching a fish with a guide but it feels alot better catching one by my self or with my dad. | |
| | |
| It would be different if you were being handed a rod with the fish already hooked. If I'm doing the casting, adding the action to the bait, rearing back on the hookset, and fighting the fish in, I could care less if someone told me what bait to use and where to cast. | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Brad,
Now let me get this straight: Taking you to the spot, telling you what bait to use, telling you where to cast. Like Worrall said, this truly must be a perception thing.
| |
| | |
Location: Northern Wisconsin | a musky is a musky. if i go to a lake and catch a musky with a guide, sure its cool and fun to catch one
but when you got to a lake and catch one by yourself theres added excitement to it, knowing
you put your self on the fish and that you did it by your self makes you feel good.
Edited by fish4musky1 9/30/2006 3:56 PM
| |
| | |
| What skill does it take to cast ??? What skill does it take to crank a bucktail ? Neither takes much , it's like real estate , location location location . Thats were a guide pays off, it's smart to use one if you don't have time to learn a given body of water. But it's my opinion (you ask ) that there would be way less personal satisfaction if it took a guide to get me Mrs Big. I've been told by a guide at a lodge where a 50 plus pounder was caught that the guy ask at every spot they fish "is this where I caught it" is this where I caught it " all day long.My point is he did'nt know crap about location. Don't get me wrong, if I had the cash and was fishing a body of water I did'nt know and had limited time I'd hire one. But if I catch my dream fish it would have a asterisk for me. One opinion only ----MD | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Dan,
I'm with you. If i caught a big muskie with a guide, it would have an asterick. I'm not saying that people should not use them if they want, or its "not fun" catching fish with a guide.
That's not the question.
OF COURSE, a guide can help you immensely with understanding new water. I also feel guides really help new musky fisherman learn at a faster rate. I'm not saying that fishing with a guide would not be fun.
I just don't agree with some muskie fisherman who because of unlimited cash, claim they caught this or that, when indeed they were guided. One guy, a rather nice gent, said to me that he caught this particuliar fish while trolling - Rod goes off and "IT WAS HIS TURN"
I had to laugh and did.
Time and Location as we all know, is a HUGE Part of the equation.
Edited by Pikiespawn 9/30/2006 4:15 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2893
Location: Yahara River Chain | "Count" in what way? You mean it isn't a muskie if you are guided to it?
How about this question - if you release a muskie, did you really catch it?
My feeling is - this is a stupid question.
Edited by muskie! nut 9/30/2006 4:44 PM
| |
| | |
Location: Northern Wisconsin | well trolling is a different story. you get in a guides boat. he picks lures, spots, everything. he puts
out lines and sets everything up. he controls boat and when you finally get a hit the guide takes the
rod out and gives it to you. not much work there. i wouldnt really brag about catching musky
that way. you really didnt do anythig but turn the reel until its at the boat. | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | "Count" IN THIS WAY.....................
Read other posts, pretty much spelled out. | |
| | |
Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | a guide is another great tool for catching muskies...trolling is another tool for catching muskies......a fish in the boat is a fish in the boat... ive caught alot of my biggest fish with people who are guides...ive caught big fish by myself..ive caught big fish trolling...it shouldnt mater how you do it as long as you do it!! i fish with alot of guides who i am also good friends with. so whos to judge??? | |
| | |
Posts: 1530
| using a guide or chartering a boat should have no effect on does it count. i have had clients blow huge fish trolling. that doent count then. whover reels the fish in lays claim to the trophy. | |
| | |
Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | I will NEVER consider that a fish was not mine if I got it casting with a guide.. If I am trolling with a guide I also don't want him grabbing the rod setting the hook and handing it to me.. if its mine I want to get the rod and set the hook myself, but it would be MY fish.. I always try and use a guide one of the 1st days I go on a trip so he can show us the territory.. if I score my pb doing that its still my pb... | |
| | |
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Pikiespwan,
You asked what others thought of the question, and you are getting some pretty well thought out answers. Allow that there will be quite a few folks who disgagree with you, and allow them their opinion. In a case like this, you are no more wrong in your point of view....or right...than anyone else.
I hunt with an Outfitter in Wyoming when I can. I don't have unlimited amounts of money, heck I'm not even well to do by Smallville standards; I barter the trips. I've taken some very nice Antelope with him, but I had to stalk and set up the shot, sometimes over a half day's work. Not a game farm, either, the Triple T Ranch in Kaycee. I also bow and rifle hunt here on my land, and don't feel any better about the P&Y buck I got here than I do about the big 'goat' and nice mulie I shot on the TTT with Jack. But that's me! | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Steve,
You make a very good point. The object of my post was to get some opinions on this subject.
It wasn't my wish to offend people with this. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | just the question "does it count" means there is a point being missed to me. what counts is the feeling of the outdoors on your face, seeing the critters on the way to the launch ... watching what's going on on the water, progressing from one plan to another throughout the day ... cracking that cold beer after the boat's on the trailer and everything's been stowed ... and then just telling the stories of whatever happened that day until you go to sleep tired and feeling like you did something worthwhile.
it's a sport that is worth enjoying for the pure fun of it .... not against the competition because i like to do some of that too ... but, when it gets down to what others think about your expression of the sport then it's time to re-think what you're doing, why you're doing it and with whom.
Edited by jonnysled 9/30/2006 6:40 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Wait a minute, I need a second to wrap my brain around this. You can HIRE someone to show you where and how to fish? Fishing LESSONS?
Wow. What's next, beer from a can, buying food without getting out your car, making love without making babies? Just when I think I've heard everything, this little world of ours smacks me over the head with another surprise. Next thing you know, someone will tell me the Packers aren't very good, or I can buy a sweater for my dog. Sheesh.
Kevin
Luckier than some Joes today, by minutes, not inches.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1530
| muskiehopefull . good chuckle. thanks i needed that one | |
| | |
Posts: 412
Location: Waukesha, WI | I find it more gratifying to boat a muskie when I've done all the work from what I've learned. But............
I've also found it a gratifying experience booking a guide and learning from him. We all define success differently, some more than others. Who's to complain. What was more valuable to me than catching muskies (but was greatful in doing so) was the couple pages of notes I took while picking his brain. Now if I only took notes on where my notes are. 
| |
| | |
Posts: 556
| if you catch it your self casting is casting reeling is reeling a musky is a musky | |
| | |
| I've spent the last two years fishing for muskies without a catch. My buddy suggested hiring a guide to help me, but that's not what I'm in it for. I've spent too many hours, made too many cast, and too many mistakes to give in now. When I finally catch one of these bad boys I want to know it's because I put in the time and effort, not because someone else put in the time and effort for me. | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Andrew,
Try to find a musky club in your area. Go to a meeting or two, and hopefully you'll find a friend as i did, that will take you under his wing. My best friend, is also obsessed by the sport. I think we learned alot together, fishing together and making tons of mistakes. Fish or no fish we always had a good time. Its still that way today. I commend you. PS | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | a person could have a lot of fun with this one ... but, i regress or suffer certain and swift moderation ... ouch, the tongue is bleeding now. | |
| | |
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I am a Wisconsin licensed guide and have been since 1974 or so. I take pride in passing what I know on to others while working in my trade, and enjoy the job; I just wish I had more time to guide.
I consider myself an educator of sorts, as I believe many others in my field might. There's absolutely nothing wrong with hiring a guide to learn, that's what we are FOR. I am the happiest about a client when they have accomplished a skill level where they no longer need my services or those of the other guides they might have chosen to fish with; many I have guided over the years are now VERY accomplished sticks. I just hope some small portion of what made them accomplished came from the deck of my rig.
Some of my clients still hire me today, and they certainly don't need to in order to catch fish. I hope they are still on the client list because they truly enjoy the time on the water.
One thing for certain; denigrating someone for a desire to learn from one who is ready, willing, and able to teach is a bad idea. I don't think I need to point out why. Don't want to hire a guide? Fine, that's cool, and may you learn what you need to to accomplish your muskie related goals as quickly as one might hope. The fact you make that choice simply shows a different resolve.
Some days we blank. Others we don't. EVERY day I try to explain the whys. wheres, and hows so those in the rig know why I'm doing what I'm doing. If I can shorten the learing curve, I certainly will. I bet most other guides feel the same way.
Shunning the teacher because one has to pay to go to school seems a bit odd to me, but to each his own. I see no loss of pride in learning from the Masters of the Trade, I sure did. I CERTAINLY don't see where a fish caught under the watchful eye of an instructor shouldn't be considered by the angler with anything but pride.
What's the difference between learing from a guide first hand and learning from magazine articles sold to you in the form of Musky Hunter or Esox Angler, In Fisherman, or any other source? (hmmm, maybe like MuskieFIRST?) Pay to attend a show, go to a seminar, and you have done exactly the same thing to a degree. One uses the knowledge passed on to catch a fish, I fail to see the difference. Just because Dick P wasn't in the boat when you apply his tactics doesn't change the fact you got that info from him.
Just one parallel, if I was looking to learn about any other complicated sport, I'd look to the best Coach I can find. But again, that's me!
| |
| | |
Posts: 61
Location: Avilla, IN | Much more satisfying for me to catch a fish from a lake I chose, a spot I picked, the right time of day, my lure choice, my decision on depth of retrieve, speed of retrieve, etc. Not a knock on guides at all, just the personal satisfaction of figuring it out myself. | |
| | |
| i like fishing with guides. it helps me. guides are a great resource!
i've hired guides for various reasons: to learn a water, to get tips, to locate fish, sometimes even just because i like him and want to give him my business.
no one else tells me what "counts". in fact, i think the very concept is inane.
they all count, but i do take a bit more pleasure in fish that i catch when i'm running the boat myself than those i've caught when being guided.
for me, the difference is actually not about the fish, it's about the satisfaction of knowing that i read the water right, and figured the conditions right, and put the boat in the right spot, and made the right lure selection and cast location and...
i went fishing with my dad for 2 hours tonight on a local "pond". we didn't catch any fish, but we did have two follows and a lot of good conversation. we watched the sun make a rainbow and then light up the newly colored leaves as it set. like Sled said. it was satisfying. | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Steve, Lambeau, and Duke1,
Those were very insightful posts, maybe Slamr should end this post now. It was never my intention to denegrate the guides in this sport, or their value as teachers. Everyone truly has a right to their own opinion, and to really approach this sport in their own manner. There truly is no right or wrong choice. It is up to the individual.
I knew i would probably take a little heat with this kind of post. I think it has made some people think, some people laugh, and some people angry.
Thinking is a good thing. PS | |
| | |
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes sir, it certainly is!  No reason to lock this down, good discussion. | |
| | |
| They all count for me. If they ever quit counting I quit fishing. | |
| | |
| Pikespawn,
If the answer to the question was "No, they don't count..." I would have not been able to count the first 16 muskies I ever caught. Because I didn't have the knowledge, equipment, BOAT, etc., I decided to turn up the learning curve in my favor....QUICKLY ! ! IMHO, one of the greatest muskie fishermen to ever live, now owns a large fishing resort in Canada. I would book him 8-12 days per year, in my first two years of muskmie fishing, and at least that for the next 6 until we bought AML....this depended on my vacation schedule, and his availability. I needed to learn about these massive, toothy critters quickly. Having been born and raised in Southern California, I was accustomed to fishing....I was fishing large party boats for tuna, yellowtail, bonita, mackeral, and anything else that swam, by the time I was 5. I feel like I was, at the age of 19, a fairly accomplished fisherman....but not in the ways of the muskie. I had been fishing Monona, in Madison Wisconsin for bass, when this LONG, UGLY, spotted beast attacked my spinnerbait at the Law Park dock...I was hooked, even though the fish swam away, unscathed, and unharmed....good thing my heart was strong, or I'd have had a heart attack it happened so fast!!!
So, after learning some important stuff from Herbie, it became about location, location, location!! I learned that the techniques I'd learned from Herbie, coupled with some good spots, I was going to produce some fish. I was taken under their wings by Kevin Wegner, Gerard Hellenbrand, and a slew of others in the Cap City chapter of Muskies Inc. Did I catch fish with these guys? Of course! Did they count any more because these guys weren't being paid? I think not! Am I glad I spent $2,000-3,000 with a guide for a couple of years before I bought a boat, and started truly going for Mr. BIG?? You betcha!! When I caught a 53"er, with a 26.75" girth, back in 1994, when Herbie & I were running AML for our first season, did it count?? I didn't pay him anything, because he was my partner. and we had a day off. What is the difference? He was still the muskie fishing guru....but he was now my partner, friend, & GUIDE!!
Now, if the guide hooks the fish, hands it off to YOU, and you reel it in....you will have *** all the way! You were with a guide who hooked a fish, and handed HIS fish over to you. Same thing with trolling....first of all, DON'T set the hook....set the drag correctly!! (Just MHO! ;-)), lIf he grabs the rod out of the holder, ays back on the rod, and holds the rod for a short time, this may not make for a catch that could/should count, especially if it is your PB.
So, now that I've rambled for way too long, hope this makes sense Pikespawn....great question!!
Donnie :-) | |
| | |
Posts: 331
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Guide or friend, if someone shows you a lake and how they fish it, if you catch a fish you catch a fish. I know some lakes better than my buddies and they know certain lakes better than me. If I fish with a buddy on a new lake in order to learn it or I hire a guide to learn the lake, what’s the difference? Think about it? Really what you are saying is that unless you yourself learn a lake any musky you catch from a lake that someone showed you, guide or not wouldn’t count. What does money have to do with it?? A guide or friend that shows you a specific technique or lake is all about learning and catching fish means you have accomplished something you set out to do.
Ed
| |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Donnie and ED,
Great posts. Maybe its the culture each of us is brought up in. Not alot of guides in Penna.
Maybe when two people are in a boat, someone is being guided. I never really looked at it like that, but maybe. I also always thought that fishing or sharing information with a good friend WAS different, maybe it IS NOT. I don't know.
The only thing i do know, is that if i caught a monster muskie with a guide, it would diminish the accomplishment for me because i didn't do everything. This is just me. Would i have fun, yes,
do i like catching big fish, yes, would i learn a heck of alot, yes...
Now, I also do not care what others do. I am not Judging anyone. This is just a question that i have heard a million guys talk about, and i thought that i would throw it out there. Great Discussion. | |
| | |
Posts: 568
| Pikespawn --think a better way to phrase the question would be to ask "is it more satisfying and should you take more pride in a non guided fish VS guided " Of course it counts , it's not like it did'nt happen, if you bag a big one while on a guide trip there is no "taking it away" ? Alot of people seem to think (from their responses) that you are suggesting it really does'nt count , like never happened ? If I ever make it up to the Ottawa or Niagra I'll hire a guide , have to , don't have the time to learn the waters , maybe very well a one time deal, if on that trip I bag a PB I'll be happy as heck BUT that fish will always have an asterisk for me, B/c I did'nt do it myself. Good Thread MD | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Dan,
You are right, "Count" was probably a bad choice of words.
Gentlemen, Please refer to MD's above post for definition of "count"
| |
| | |
| Pikespawn,
This is the beauty of muskie fishing....there are lots of answers, not just "specific" answers. The reason for this board, is to show different views or aspects of the AWESOME sport of muskie fishing.
With that said, I'll make another point....so you realize I've had a large number of 50+" fish in my boat since 2000? Not many people know that. Do you know I can't guide in Canada, because it's against the law? I fish with a number of close friends year in and year out up on Eagle. I'm not gonna be the one to tell the recipients of my hard work, their hard work, showing people big fish, catching BIG fish, that they can't count them...this is somewhat an odd sense isn't it??
Secondly, what it seems you're implying, is that the only way you can count ALL of the fish YOU catch, is to fish alone. Are you gonna allow the guy in the "back of the boat" (of which I only fish out of the back...can't figure out how to run my boat from the front) to count his fish, or not, because YOU'RE running the boat? It is nice to see all of your hard work come together, and boat a nice fish or two. It is neat to see how you're information gathering has turned into a great day for EVERYONE ! ! So, think about counting ALL of the fish you catch, whether guided or fished with by someone else. It would be somewhat close-kinded not to count them...if you didn't, I think you'd be robbing yourself of some nice catches with guides.
It is OK to change your thoughts after reading much of what others have to say. LOL....just kiddin'!! I hope you understand my thoughts surrounding "counting" fish you catch while running the boat, versus "not" running the boat!!
Donnie | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Donnie,
I see your point loud and clear! See ManitouDans post. "Counting" was probably (was) a poor choice of words. "personal satisfaction", "sense of accomplishment" maybe better.
You hanging out fishing with your circle of friends (muskie addicts / accomplished anglers) is not really what i was discussing.
ManitouDan, (who i don't know), "gets" what i'm trying to talk about, "discuss".
Donnie, if i go to Canada with my group of friends and catch a 40#er, it would be different (to me) than if i went to Canada and hired Richard Collins or Mike Lazarus (2 great guides) and caught one......... Thats all i'm saying. PS | |
| | |
| EXACTLY...well put...what about your friend who caught his biggest fish ever, out of YOUR boat?? I was playing Devil's advocate in this scenario, although I'd never be an advocate of that poor ba$tard.
Yes, both GREAT guides!! And I knew exactly what you were saying from the getgo. Thanks for starting an awesome post!!
Donnie | |
| | |
Posts: 2087
| Andrew,
Get a guide! no better yet get 3 or 4 different ones! This sport isn't cheap it will be the best $1200 you ever spent.... ask questions, learn seasonal patterns, and on and on... Learning curve will be shortened like you cant believe! No substitue for time on the water..... so if you fish with 3 guys that have a combined 30 years on the water well hopefully you getting my point,..... then go out and apply what you have learned!.......Pikiespawn how many guides have you hired?? | |
| | |
Posts: 331
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Pikespawn,
This is a good topic and often on these boards people ask questions in an attempt to confirm a theory or opinion they might have. Sometimes people have a tendency to take an opinion and turn it into a personal attack. Glad that this post has remained nice. With this type of discussion it’s hard to say who is right or wrong but we can at least learn to appreciate each other’s views. I think you should feel good about counting any fish you boat with a guide. I say this because I have hired guides in the past and have caught fish with them. I hired guides because it shortened the learning curve on a specific body of water I wanted to learn. I also have hired guides because I wanted to see how they “fish” in comparison to how I fish. I learned that all musky fishermen have something to learn from each other. I have found that there is not much of a difference between a guide and an accomplished fisherman. I will say that a guide will typically know the specific patterns on the lake your going to fish because they have been actively fishing that body of water. I will say that the biggest complaint that a guide has about clients is their inability to cast properly or how they fail to convert on hot fish. But if you hire a guide and you’re an accomplished angler who catches a fair amount of fish, why feel less about any fish you boat? Just because someone is a “guide” doesn’t mean they are a better angler. I think there is a point in our learning progression as musky anglers where we realize that we are on common ground with guides. We have paid our dues and have caught our fair share of fish. When we venture to a new body of water we sometimes hire a guide to accelerate the learning curve because we might have limited time to fish that body of water. No shame in that fact, and no shame in catching a fish when fishing with the guide. Often time’s guides have asked me questions on my technique and they learn something new from me. We have so much to learn from one another and there is so much we can learn from one another. In the process of learning we catch fish whether it’s with a guide or a buddy, be proud of any fish you catch! Remember that there are no guides that can guarantee you a 50-inch fish! If a guide shows you a big fish spot on a lake but you do not catch a fish with him and then return there a week later by yourself and boat a 50-inch fish, do you give the credit to the guide or yourself? It’s almost like saying that any spot that you catch a fish on but was shown to you by a guide, the fish should not be counted. Kind of silly if you think about it?
I hope your season is going well and the best is yet to come!
Ed
| |
| | |
| Musky fishing is a "team sport". I've been at it long enough to know that sometimes there's no ryhme or reason as to which lure a Musky will decide to hit. When someone in the boat gets a fish, it's a "victory" for everyone in the boat.
Hiring a guide makes sense on new waters, big waters, or for people who only have limited time (like one week of vacation) and want to maximize their time by being "on the pattern/spots" instantly. | |
| | |
| The goal is to catch muskies, and it is enjoyable to catch muskies alone, fishing with family, fishing with friends, or fishing with guides.
The more you have to do with the catch the better in terms of personal satisfaction | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Thanks Ed, the best to you also!! | |
| | |
Posts: 194
| This is a great topic. It's something I've had to define for myself over the last 3 years I've dedicated my fishing time to Muskies. I fish with Scott Kieper every September in the Hayward area. Great guide, even better guy. I have learned a ton from him. Much of what he taught me has shaped how I fish today. First time out with him 3 years ago, "We" caught 6 fish. One I hooked myself casting. I definately count that fish AND take great satisfaction from doing so. It was 39". Next, my regular fishing partner got one on a sucker (30"), then me on a sucker (41 1/2") then him on a sucker (36"). All of the sucker bites were set and handed over by Scott. Two others came that Scott hooked on lures. I reeled in one(43") and my friend reeled in the other(37 1/2"). The two fish I caught that were "Handed" off definately count as numbers in my book. I still had to fight them right. I hear all the time from Guides how this client lost this or that fish by screwing up like this or that. However here's where I draw the line. these hand-offs were both bigger then any other fish I have caught before or since. I don't call either one a PB. That's just me. The next season there were 3 fish put in the boat, but the rules had changed. We, as clients, did not want any hand-offs. We also wanted to learn the ins and outs of Sucker fishing. We either set the hooks ourselves, or Scott reeled in his own fish. We didn't break any PB numbers fo size, but the fish we got on Suckers that day were more satisfying. This year we went Hawg Hunting and got skunked, but saw the biggest fish at boatside we'd ever seen and learned some new water. It was one of the best Muskie fishing days I've ever had. The reason I hire Scott is first he is a world-class guide, but more importantly, he has become a good friend and I "Like" fishing with him. BTW, I'm here to tell you there ARE big fish in WI. But back to the original topic as redefined later. I "Count" every fish I've ever brought to the boat. No matter who hooked it. I feel very "Satisfied" in doing so. I choose not to call the only 2 "Hand-offs" in my log as my PB even though they were both bigger fish then I have caught on my own. I think if someone casts to it, hooks it, fights it to the boat, has it netted, photgraphed and released(Hopefully). It doesn't matter who is driving you around the lake or how much you did or didn't pay them. You did everything you were supposed to do, under the circumstances. I don't feel like hiring a guide should take anything away from the experience or feeling of satisfaction. | |
| | |
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Any fish counts in my book! Guide or no guide, fishing for them or not. A fish in the net is success!
Mike | |
| | |
Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Ok so you're fishing in your buddies boat and catch your personal best. I guess it doesn't count as it's like been guided.
What about catching your personal best on a spot and with a lure you were told to use, I guess that's like been guided as well even though you would be alone in the boat.
I'm a trophy muskie fishing guide, guys come from far away to fish with me to catch their personal best and most do. Sure the fact that we are fishing some of the best waters in the world and that I may just be good at finding the fish and knowing what gets them going ect ect. This does not mean the fish should not count, the guy still needs to cast, set the hook and reel that fish in or even when trolling he still needs to fight that fish and get her to the net.
There is no way that a guy's personal best should be disqualified because he was guided.
Maybe I'm just bious as I would be out of work if they didn't.  | |
| | |
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Of all the fish that came to my clients in the past years I would bet that all of them are counted as fish they caught.
Trolling, casting, or live bait these fish all still have to caught and landed by the clients. If they loose it, is it the guides fault or the clients? I see the faces of these clients who catch these fish every day. Trust me they are very happy to score and learn the whys that go along with the fish they caught.
I had an elderly father that has never got a trophy by his standards. His health is bad and he hired me to run the boat and put him on a big fish. The weather took a turn for the worst and he couldn't cast because of his legs and back problems in rough water. Long story short I got him a 50 1/2-incher trolling. He was so proud and happy he got a trophy to put on his wall. The fish was released and a replaca was ordered. Now, should that fish not count?
Should he not be happy to have battled and caught this big fish. Yes, I put him on the fish but he caught it all the way. If he cant count it should I be able to count it as mine?
This brings up a new question: Should guides beable to count fish that clients catch whie trolling, hand offs casting, or sucker fish?
I see some guides that put up some huge numbers and they are booked every day. How can they register so many fish while working every day?
Every fish that a client touches is not a fish I can register. Muskies Inc rules I am talking about. Now I see plenty of guides that must count client fish. Should these count because the guide did the work or did the client?
Who caught the fish?
Guided or not, who's fish is it?
Clients all the way!!!
Thats my thought........
| |
| | |
| A most appropriate question dude...one would had to have missed his/her meds to find malice w/in the wording...at any rate, I too lean toward finding more satisfaction in doing a personal recon on catching or harvesting various forms of fish and game. I enjoy the strategy of locating quarry on land/lake/sea and then seeing how I fare from me observations; I've failed more times than I've succeeded, and the learning curve at times has been excruciating, but in the end, well worth the effort, regardless of the end results. I think guides are of the utmost importance, as they provide a much needed service for a vast variety of reasons, and enable folks to experience that which they seek in a safer more stable enviroment, giving them confidence when they strike out on their own. Only guides I've ever fished w/ are Crash/Justin Mullins and Charlie on Cave Run, and enjoyed every moment of each time, as I view catching an actual fish secondary to the overall experience. If I ever get to the point when the only satisfaction I get is from catching a fish or nailing a deer/turkey, then I'll get rid of me rods/guns and walk away from it...I'm friendly to all but "tight" w/ only a few, and value can't be placed on personal relationships w/ yer pals, as they can't be caught or bought...
I guess in summary, from a catch or kill perspective, I personally would feel more accomplishment in reaching me goal from personal experience, rather from being led or shown where to fish/hunt etc., but find nothing at all wrong w/ others whom chose guides to help them, especially in this fast paced world we call home; in fact, the safety factor alone is extremely important, whether it be fishing or hunting. The older I get, the more emphasis I place on memories and friends, and try to forget what could have been or should have been...in the end, I gotta be happy w/ what I did and how I treated others along the way... | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Richard,
I know you are a very talented musky fisherman. Your waters are the finest musky water that I have ever personally fished. I'm not advocating that anyones catch with you be disqualified.As I said before, "count" was a lousy choice of words. This boils down to each individuals sense of accomplishment. From reading these posts, this is an individual thing, and a complex thing. I apprecitate all the opinions on this subject. I also appreciate that this discussion has not turned ugly. That says alot for the fisherman on this forum. We all love musky fishing. We are all addicted, or we wouldn't be on this website. When someone has a different opinion than you do, it is easy to attack or make jokes of it. This certainly was not my intent. I have benefited from some of the other perceptions on this thread. (Steve, Donnie, and others). I feel it is important to think, as we all "think" on the water.
I wish everyone the best of luck this fall, and as someone else said " I hope the best is yet to come." PS | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Sponge,
I couldn't of said it better than that......... That is exactly how i feel. You crushed it. | |
| | |
| Hence the reason I posted grasshopper; though me eyes be nigh sightless and milky white, one must still be able to snatch the sucker from the palm of the hand before leaving the temple...now fetch me a bowl of rice... To truly understand the content of any post and the following responses, one must print the wording, run the printed material through a shredder, then piece the paper puzzle back together, blind folded and sitting on a reed mat; complete comprehension soon follows and the mind expands, much like the belly of a stray cat that happens upon a saucer of milk on a porch...MORE OVALTINE PLEASE!!!
One thing I might caution against, and that would be not to become addicted to anything, whether it be feesh, fowl, fins, women, etc...when something or things take place over anything/everything else, then there is loss of control...having experienced severe withdrawal from the aforementioned and other things over the years, I am close to getting me diploma from the school of HARD KNOCKS, and hope that others might follow a path of lesser resistance; a healthy approach to one's chosen activities and such allows for maximum enjoyment, thus increasing the level of pleasure, while lessening the level of pain to a greater degree...that being said, I no doubt will screw up at home or office this week and experience pain to some degree, so I guess the level will depend on me...all in all, a balance should be sought daily, and may each find that which they seek... | |
| | |
Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | The old records that are still standing were caught without the use of electric motors, todays detailed maps or locators. So should it count if you used either of those? A caught fish is a caught fish regarless if caught with the help of a guide. I agree with steve on that.
Pfeiff | |
| | |
| I'm with the guy that posted earlier: stupid question. Turning a muskie into "number 5" is a disgrace to the fish and the sport, and ultimately to yourself.
Unless you're fishing in a tournament, there are no rules about fish "counting." I strongly suggest you pick up a book by Thomas McGuane called The Longest Silence: A Life in Fishing. My comment about the problem of turning fish into numbers came from that book. Read the foreward (Some Remarks) if nothing else. This book was suggested to me by one of my good fishing friends, and I'm very glad I took his advice.
John | |
| | |
Posts: 8865
| Does it count???
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
We're trying to make something black and white that seldom is in my opinion.
I fish with guides pretty regularly, and I can tell you that for me, every fish ranks a little differently in how much it "counts".
Let's say you're trolling, with a guide, in his boat, using his equipment. You get a fish, the guide grabs the rod and hands it to you.
You reeled in the fish, but you're participation level was what exactly, other than being in the boat? Anyone who was there at that time would have "caught" that fish.
Now let's say you're fishing with that same guide, (let's call him Bob) and you say "Hey Bob, what do you think about hitting _______ point? The wind's blowing in there for a couple days, and we're seeing a lot of bait on the edges this morning..."
So you motor over to ________ point, on the way you clip on lure X, and when you start your drift you make that perfect cast right on the inside turn, and WHACK there's a fish...
While you weren't running the boat, you suggested the spot, you picked the bait, you put that bait right on the spot-on-the-spot, and you managed to catch a fish. Short of the guide netting the fish for you and the fact that it wasn't your boat, what role did the guide play in that particular fish??
Or lets turn it around -- lets say its your boat and you're on one of your favorite spots... You tell your buddy to throw a black suick and he catches a fish -- did YOU catch that fish ir did he? Or supposed you're on that same spot and he looks off the other side of the boat and says "ooh, look at that" throws a cast using a bait that he picked and catches a fish?
| |
| | |
Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | Things the Guide does for you...
1 Picks the spot
2 Picks the Lure
3 Provides the proper equipment to get all of this done
Things the guide doesn't do...
1 Can't ensure 100% that every cast you make has a proper bait "presentation"
2 Is Not setting the hook for you
3 Is not fighting the fish for you
4 Ignoring #2 and #3 often will ensure your fish will never see the net
I actually have never landed a fish with a guide, 0-4. However, If I would have, you can be sure they would have "counted" for the reasons above.
| |
| | |
Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | Does it count when your fishing in your buddies boat?
I'd rather catch one by myself but your #*^@ sure I'll count a guide fish.
I've only been with a guide once. Didn't catch a fish but he stuck a 46. The reason it was well worth the money is because I learned how to fish a lake I was new to and also picked up some good pointers on boat control and using an "0" over an '8' on bigger fish. | |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | I think Ed, (Muskytime) nailed it...
of course fish should count with a "guide" and they should feel good to the person who caught them....with a guide, with a friend, with a guide who's a friend, alone etc etc...they all should make you feel good that you caught them...though I do see your point.... I got my WI personal best, fishing alone, last nov. on a lake I learned completely on my own...that was a good feeling..but so was my hog a few weeks ago I got with a friend who does some guiding...they all should make the angler proud...we all are guided to fish one time or another...even if we didn't have to pay the "guide"...
| |
| | |
| Hey Pikespawn --do ya wish you would'nt have used the word "count" ? how many people keep answering this thing from the perspective of you saying a fish does'nt count ? Folk's he clarified that about 20 response's ago --He does'nt mean it does'nt count only less personal satisfaction ! Read the whole thread Peace MD | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Brad and Dan,
I appreciate your posts. Some people will not read, or just fly off the handle. That is their option. | |
| | |
| EA,
As he mentioned in an earlier post, had he mentioned "does it mean more," he'd not have been riddin' by me or anyone else about his choice of the word count.
Pikespawn,
I think your question was a GREAT one! Spurned (or should I say Spawned??) alot of talk about this subject. There is a large difference between "counting" a fish, and "personal satisfaction" of doing everything necessary to catch one.
Now, with that, can we all understand he didn't mean "count" as much as he meant "more personal satisfaction?"
Have a great day....keep counting ALL of your muskies!!
Donnie | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | If I ever make it to Eagle Lake, I WILL look you up. Good question or not, this thread is gonna go. As my friend Beaver Slivinski said, "Why do i even bother to post" | |
| | |
| Pikiespawn..I think we all know (or most of us) what you meant by count...should the angler get as much personal satisfaction from a "guided" fish as a fish on his own...well I think that is up to each individual angler to determine on their own...nobody can tell them how they should or shouldnt feel from boating a fish....if you were fishing with a friend, on a lake you didn't know, your friend did, and you caught a fish from the back weren't you "guided"....
for me, I get a kick out of catchin all fish..from the front, from the back, with a guide, with a friend, solo, you name it..the day I don't get jazzed up about putting the hooks into a musky big or small is the day I quit...
good luck this fall..how is the 617 treatin ya?
bn | |
| | |
Posts: 8865
| Every fish is different. I'd feel better about a 30"er that went around on the 8 a bunch of times and finally reacted to something I did (voluntarily) than I would about a 40 that just smashed my bait as soon as it hit the water.
Pikiespawn -- no offense meant by my earlier post -- they all "count", but each one has different levels of accomplishment based on all sorts of factors.
And Brad's not kidding -- he gets so excited when he puts people on fish he can hardly stay in the boat! | |
| | |
| To the logical conclusion the question has to go all the way back to never going on a website or reading anything anyone else says about a lure or a lake or how to position a boat or tie a knot or to retrieve a lure. If a friend calls and says the muskies are active, you can't go to the lake because then you didn' t find them active yourself, if you read in an article that Eagle is a good muskie lake you can' t to to Eagle since you did not find that out yourself. If just doesn't make any sense. I caught two muskies over 50 inches this summer in three casts fishing with a Buddy of mine in Minnesota. He was not a guide so I guess I did a lot more toward the catches than if I paid him. Give me a break. I understand the idea of scouting a lake and finding a big fish and trying to get her to eat yourself. but if you happen to go out with a buddy or a guide and you get into an amazing fish, its pretty sad if you cannot feel thrilled to catch her (and let her go). Just my humble opinion | |
| | |
Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | Pikiespawn,
As usual I look at this differently.
A boated fish counts regardless of who caught it, who netted it, or any other part of the equation you want to figure in. I have fished with many guides/knowledgable anglers on the Chippewa Flowage and truthfully any fish I catch should be credited to them, and I don't have a problem with that.
The highlite of this year was opening morning netting a 45 incher for Ty Sennett and I would rather have netted his fish than been out alone and caught it by myself. With Ty's hectic schedule and my family schedule this is more than likely the only time we will get out this year, and netting the fish was a bonus, getting to fish with a good friend was what I was looking forward to. Most of the friends I fish with know it is the success of the boat that matters, not the individual, and in all cases I would rather have whoever is fishing with me to catch the fish, whether it be friends or family. I fish out of the back of the boat regardless if I have 4 people or just out alone, and don't position the boat different to allow me to hit the best water unless I am by myself.
Fish in the boat is what matters, regardless if I am with a guide, friends or alone, and how the catch is viewed regardless of those circumstances is mute. A nice fish is a nice fish, regardless if you are by yourself or with friends, or heaven forbid had to hire a guide to "help" you out.
In its' simplest form it all comes down to egos . .. . . . which I like to have checked at the dock before heading out onto the water.
Corey Meyer | |
| | |
Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I think the question should be, CAN guided fish count?
I have a hard time believing that fish of any kind can understand even the simplest of mathematical concepts. I can't see one fish saying to another:
"You know Jim, that's the seventh time that thing has fluttered over our heads in the last ten minutes."
"Yeah, I noticed that, too. I've been counting, by the third time, I started to get hungry."
Kevin
Count 'em all, let your conscience be your guide. | |
| | |
Posts: 8865
| I know there's at least one musky who knows how to count!
See it all started back in May... I was out fishing with a friend, and I caught this musky. Cute little fellow, meaner than a junkyard dog he was. Anyway I guess he didn't want his picture taken, because when I held him up for the picture and my buddy had the camera ready to go, my buddy started to count...
ok, one, two, THREE
Well just as he got to "two" that muskie jumped right outta my hands back into the water. I couldn't beieve it!
Now I've heard they can count to 10,000, but so far my research has only confirmed that they do indeed know that three comes after two which comes after one, otherwise it would have jumped when my friend said "one" or waited until he said "three" and been captured on film (deductive reasoning), which they apparently do not like.
And they seem to be really interested in the number 8, but that could be because on its side the number 8 is the symbol for infiniti, which means they just might be pretty well versed at high level mathmatics!
Further study needed
| |
| | |
| Obviously the word COUNT has different meanings to peeps; I guess I could read all the responses YET again, but I doubt I'll find the mention of a musky being a "numbers" game, as posted above, and sure as hay struggle to find how the original post can be degrading to a fish/sport/person; try reading posts in the past, and you'll find a variety of folks who have mentioned how many fish they've caught in a given time...perhaps a group hanging is in order...who'll be the first to smack the horse's arse? The original post was pretty clear as to asking the simple question of whether or not a person derived more satisfaction from catching a 'ski on their own, and has somehow turned into a Shakespearian tragic comedy...maybe I'm the heathen and need to engage in feesh worship...on second thought, don't save me a seat... | |
| | |
Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | D@mmit, EA, I think you convinced me. They do like the number 8, and the number 0, which would have been obvious to me if I had ever hooked one near the boat. I've heard they also hit on the "L". Is it possible they spell, too, or at least know the alphabet?
Well, they say muskies will always surprise you.
Kevin
Smarter than we think?
| |
| | |
Posts: 568
| Muskymeyer --I agree with your whole post --At this point in my life after catching 6 or 7 48 and 49 inchers I would still prefer netting my bro's 1st 50 than catching my 1st one. Or if I could fish a day or two with my best buddy who is mid 70's and have him catch a decent fish --It would be the hightlight of my year . I think most musky fisherman are hard working , independent individuals, by nature we don't do things the easy way, if we did we would bass fish. It's weird to feel the same passion about muskies, but differ on this "satisfaction" thing. The good news --it's not a big deal Take Care ManitouDan | |
| | |
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Please Slamr, I beg of you, release me from this torture.....
PS I did not mean "count" as FREAKING NUMBERS............
Pikiespawn is now flopping around in bottom of boat in "death throws"
Edited by Pikiespawn 10/2/2006 6:35 PM
| |
| | |
| Not yet hopper...now that the Jack-In-The-Box is lodged solidly in yer backside, you gotta wait 'til everyone has a chance to crank the handle. One can pirse on a camp fire and put it out, but the scent lingers long after the flames die...you'll be OK dude, I've been misunderstood most of me life, yet still in the saddle! | |
| | |
Location: Northern Wisconsin | stop taking photos of little tiny musky, release them with out touching them. shake them off if you can
try not to handle them | |
| | |
Posts: 17
| I've nearly two decades of experience fishing for bass, steelhead, salmon, laketrout, pike, and walleye. I've fished in boats, on piers, and wading. I've spincast, baitcast, flycast. I've tied my own flies, and made my own spinners. However, I'm seriously contemplating hiring a guide for my first foray or two for muskie, until I learn the water, the fish, and the techniques.
Would I be happy catching fish on a guided trip? You bet! Many times in the past I've gone out on friends' boats, where they've chosen the time, the lake, and the locations. Sometimes, I've even used their rods, reels, and lures. Was I happy when I caught fish then? Of course.
It's like many things in life - there's levels of satisfaction. For me, at least, it's always more satisfying the more I put into the sport. There's a certain satisfaction to fishing in one's own boat, with one's own rods, reels, and tackle. It was more fun with steelheading when I caught fish on flies I tied, or french-bladed spinners I built myself, as opposed to off-the-shelf lures.
But everyone has to start somewhere. | |
| | |
Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | What happens if you fish with a guide who is a buddy of yours and catch a fish.....Its your fish right, that is all I have to say, I have a guide friend I fish with all the time and catch fish so it is my fish...
pga | |
| |
|
Do Guided Fish Mean as Much to You?