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| PELICAN LAKE------ZERO MUSKIES ON SAT. AND ONLY 2 ON SUN!
In the early years of the Hodag Tourn. Pelican Lake was always a top contender with most of the big fish always coming from there. What has happened to the lake? The last couple of years they hardly catch any fish from Pelican. I know a lot of you guys fish the lake, what do you guys think has happened to Pelican? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Numbers are definitely down there from historic highs, mostly because of NASTY harvest numbers through the 90's and the fact NO muskies have been stocked since 1998. None are scheduled to be stocked during the current study period, meaning at least another decade. The goal is a lower density (.33 per acre, I believe) higher quality fishery in the future, and protecting the remaining fish is absolutely critical to that end. Norm Wild and Mike Roberts have been working with the public and the DNR trying to accomplish just that.
That doesn't mean Pelican is not a healthy muskie fishery right now, however. I think the fish were off because the lake suddenly went from greeeeeeeeeen to very clear this mid week. |
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| Steve,
The NASTY harvest,is that from Indian spearing? |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I've been asking myself this question for the past 15 years!
Mike |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Pelican has had the living h--- speared out of it since the srart of spearing> also speared in the winter and those speared through the ice not counted in the harvest count. pelican not the only one suffering from this.
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Muskaluck,
The short answer is a vehement 'no'. The number of fish speared there one year in the early nineties, for example, paled to the creeled and proven harvest by the 'rest of us' of 143 fish.
Don't be in too much of a hurry to point to Native American harvest until you do some homework on what the rest of the fishing population harvests. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | It would be easy to point fingers at spearing totals but if you actually look at the totals they have speared (I think 11 both of the last two years) they are not that high. In actuality anglers are keeping many times that number of fish every year.
The last creel survey showed about 150 skis caught and kept by anglers in 1998. If you factor in that the lake is 3600 acres with a .33 per acre population.....ANGLERS kept over 10% of the adult population in one year.
All that being said, Pelican is still healthy right now. It is not a numbers lake, but you can have some 4 & 5 fish days there. The average size is on the large size of the state's average, and if we can protect the spawners we will be in good shape for the future. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | I wont go into some of the issues as Norm and Steve covered them pretty well. But regarding fishing Pelican in September there are a couple of things that may explain the last couple of years out there during the Hodag.
In my opinion Pelican is a very weather sensitive lake all year long, but especially in September during that first major temp drop.
Norm or Steve what have the water temps done out there since Labor Day weekend?
If conditions stay stable leading up to the Hodag it can be completely on fire. If those first major cold fronts of the year push though in the weeks leading up to the Hodag fishing can really stink. I thinks this is what happened the last few years out there. I stopped fishing Pelican during the Hodag in favor of less sensitive bodies of water, that’s good if this type of weather happens, but watch out the next time we get “Pelican” weather. It will again light up the board. That is if we can protect the fish that are currently swimming there and get some good year classes coming up.
Hope that helps.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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| a question people keep asking me is
when the size limit increases to 50 on pelican
do the spearers then have to follow that limit as well?
not trying to get into a debate here. just need the answer so i have the right one when asked.
dannyboy |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No. We hope to be able to work positively with the Tribes to reduce the number of larger fish harvested, but have not even approached that area of negotiation yet. The Native American harvest is not the 'problem' on Pelican, and with lower populations, the TAC will come down too. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I'm not going to blame the Native Americans on it, I just flat out suck at that lake. Its a tough one!
Mike |
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Posts: 54
| thanks for the info.
the tuesday night rhinelander league did well there this year.
i actually look foreward to fishing it next year.
i don't have exact numbers but i think we caught more fish there then anywhere else.
my partner also got his personal best there the first round of league. a nice fat 44"
dannyboy
www.dannyboysguideservice.com
715-674-2061 |
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Posts: 332
Location: Neenah, WI | Don"t worry about Pelican it is alive and strong!!
And only getting better!!!!!
SAINT1 |
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| They shouldn't stock it if it is getting speared. Let the spearing play itself out and then see where the cards fall. Why point to a angler harvest versus spearing number from the early 90's? Maybe because now the number of harvested by anglers versus speared isn't so dramatic at present. Funny how one type of fish kill is the problem and another isn't. Don't they both end with a dead fish?
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Posts: 222
| I don't want to start anything either, but does anybody know approximately how many muskie are speared in the winter. I bet it far out weighs the 10 to 20 muskie they take in the spring. |
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| I still feel there is more to the problem than the harvest of the early 90's. It seems the drop off has been most dramatic the past couple of years. I am sure other laskes had a significant number of fish kept in the late 80's and early 90's until catch and release really took hold. The fish are going somewhere. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i've always said i only fish it because i "have to" for league two nights a year, but after some of the things i saw and learned this year that attitude has changed. it's on my short list of top water now and i can't wait to get back on it. i see it as a bit more difficult but definitely not a place that is "in trouble" ... in-fact i think the opposite now. it's a place i think that is among the best in our area for targeting big fish. |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | Since they do not stock the fish, do they reproduce in the lake? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | OK, enough about the spearing, the totals are published and easy to access and as Norm said are minimal when compared to angler harvest. Winter spearing is also VERY minimal there, again anecdotally.
Not stocking because of spearing is a ludicrous statement, the lake has to be managed for the use it's expected to incur, ALL sources. Don't even try to argue, just think about that. Be #*^@ed careful your comments won't be interpeted as antisocial; this sort of 'help' Mike and Norm do not need in the educational process for the public necessary to accomplish change and acceptance.
The number of angler harvested fish has NOT fallen that much anecdotally; the reason the figures were from the 90's is because those were from the last official WDNR Creel, and can be proven.
Yes, Pelican has some NR. The big question is-how much? Is it enough to hold the population to a fishable level under the current harvest pressure ( average length of harvested fish is mid 40's to upper 40's) we see there right now? NO! The lake won't be stocked for at least a decade, and that's why we tried for a 50" limit; Pelican can and does produce 50" plus fish, is at her best as a low density/high quality fishery, and clearly NEEDS to be protected from overharvest if there is to be no stocking. Mike and Norm stepped up, and DID something positive in an attempt to stave off the inevitable slow destruction of the Pelican Lake Muskie population.
guest,
Of COURSE a harvested fish is a dead fish. We can DO something about the ones that are harvested by anglers, and MAYBE, if we try very hard to understand the culture, motivations, and history of Native American harvest (a treaty RIGHT upheld by our Supreme Court--and isn't going to 'play out') from Ceded treaty lands we may eventually be able to work positively with the tribes. If you have a positive statement to support the fishery or efforts underway to protect the Muskie population there, great. If all you want to do is say something rude and mean spirited, back away form the keyboard and look in the mirror next time someone asks what the problem with Pelican might be.
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'I still feel there is more to the problem than the harvest of the early 90's. It seems the drop off has been most dramatic the past couple of years. I am sure other lakes had a significant number of fish kept in the late 80's and early 90's until catch and release really took hold. The fish are going somewhere.'
Editor's Note:
This is from the author of this thread, this person started this conversation.-----
In partial answer:
There has been NO STOCKING since 1998, so the thousands of fish that used to be stocked in Pelican are no longer stocked so they can grow up and get caught. A fish stocked in Pelican in 1998 would be about 38" or a bit more today. Lets use 1000 fingerlings as a figure; about 30 percent of a year class disappears for many reasons each year. 1000 stocked in 1998 would leave roughly 80 fish from that year class in Pelican today to join those from NR. Take out a ratio of each stocked year class of 1000 every year, and the number is in the hundreds, significant to a 3600 acre lake. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | More Pelican info:
The last kreel survey was done in the early 90s so that is the best data available on angler harvest. Angler harvest was over 140 fish that year. Also 19% of angler hours on Pelican are directed at musky.
There are no numbers for winter spearing, spring spearing has averaged 14 +/- fish per year since it started. Last year the spring harvest was over 20 fish.
Here's a question to ask yourself, what was more Angler harvest in the 80s or a combination of Angler and Spearing harvest in the 90s my money would be on Angler harvest in the 80s took far more fish.
Why did the musky population rebound some in the 90's? I think it is a combination of C&R and heaving stocking. There is no doubt spearing has an effect but the the combination of heavy stocking and reduced angler harvest were enough to counter act it. Then stocking ended in 1998. Natural reproduction does not appear to be able to keep up with the harvest both spearing and angler.
The lake is still in good shape, but evidence is showing it may not last for ever.
Regarding not doing anything becasue the fish will get speared anyway. I think was best summed up in the following answer to the FAQ sheet I put together:
Q)Why should we protect fish on lakes that are heavily speared? Are we not just leaving them to be harvested through spearing in the spring?
A)Under the present system for determining tribal harvest quotas, spearing will not negate the benefits to be gained by increasing the minimum length limit, even if the tribes take their full quota on a lake (which has seldom happened). This is because tribal quotas are lower than the normal sport harvest of muskies on most lakes. Higher minimum length limits will benefit all users by allowing the fish to grow larger. Killing a musky out of spite will not lower the tribal quota. It will only result in one less fish for an angler to catch again. For example on Pelican Lake in Oneida county, which gets speared heavily every spring, tribal speares have taken an average of 14.5 muskies per year since spearing began in 1985. By comparison, the estimated angler harvest was 146 muskies, during the year of the last angler creel survey on Pelican Lake. Sound, proactive management decisions can be used as a positive, when attempting to negotiate reduced harvest from tribal spearing.
For more info please read the following. The entire FAQ is also located on the Muskie First article section.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/09.20.2006/1028/Pelican.La...
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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| One thing that never gets mentioned when we talk about harvested fish, whether angled or speared are the fish that die from improper handling when released. Also we could mention fish that are hooked bad, such as in the gills, eyes, throat and also the side of the head or body and then released. Fish that fall off the spears. Nobody knows for sure how many fish die after they are released even if handled properly. My guess is that the total number is quite high, especially on lakes that are heavily fished and also have several tournaments a year. Studies have been done on released fish and sometimes fish will live a week, month or months before expiring. No matter how careful we are some fish will die that we think swam away OK.
Granted theres not much we can do about it other than take as many precautions as we can to ensure a healthy release.
There probably isn't any one contributing factor to Pelican's decline, but when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together they all add up to a lot less fish.
Just my thoughts,
HODAG |
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Posts: 222
| I agree with what you said Hodag. I think that the number of fish that die from being caught is maybe higher than we think. But we are not going to stop fishing. We only can do or best and try to educate other people on proper releasing. Hopefully the 50 inch limit will go into effect and the natives see the decline in the muskie numbers and reduces their total. I know I used to see many more fish on Pelican than now but I still love to fish it and continue to do so, especially in October with suckers with quick strike rigs of course. Thanks Steve and Norm and Mike for helping to educate people on this subject. |
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| I have been reading all the dialogue regarding Pelican and have first hand experience fishing the lake. It is obvious the musky population is down, be it from spearing, overharvest, mortality form catch and release, or whatever. As I see it, the problem is that the lake was being stocked by the DNR and now that is not happening. I am sure the DNR's response will be money issues. Is that really the case? |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | John, stocking was originally suspended in 1998 at the request of the Lake Association. It has also since been added to the no-stock list to evaluate natural reproduction. There is no doubt there are very large natural fish out there, hence our push for a 50” size limit. Protect what it has while natural reproduction is being evaluated. When the lake is next studied for Musky the DNR will make appropriate changes if required, ie, to stock or not to stock.
By the way the Lake Association board now has some musky friendly people on it and the Lake Association as a whole supported doing something at the 2005, annual meeting. The guy who was president back in 1998, and pushed to halt stocking, led a discussion at the end of 2006 annual meeting to try and withdraw lake association support for a size limit increase. There was a vote to get more information, it was very confusing and I don’t know what was done after that.
The vote for the 50” proposal did pass the April 2006 spring hearing and is continuing it trip through the State Bureaucracy.
Hope that helps.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | John,
I will agree 100% that the population in Pelican is down from its highs in the 90's. The lake is currently on the do not stock list, not entirely because of the DNR, but largely because the Lake Association requested them to stop stocking muskies. The lake has a very good history of natural reproduction, this is very obvious when you look at the number of Hybrids caught on the lake every year. Obviously natural recruitment will not sustain the numbers it previously had when suplemented by stocking. It is now being managed as a lower density quality fishery.
If you are looking for consistent multiple fish days Pelican is probably not a top choice. I very rarely guide "first time" or novice clients on the lake because the action is not always fast and furious. If I have experienced clients that want a shot at big fish......now that is when I am going to Pelican. The lake has a healthy population right now, but these fish need to be protected if the lake is to sustain itself. That is why Mike Roberts, Steve Worrall and I pushed so hard to raise the minimum limit on the lake.
I guess to sum it up, there is nothing wrong with Pelican lake right now. It probably offers one of the best shots at 30# fish in Oneida county. It is just being managed as a different type of fishery now. There is nothing wrong with that, you just need to know what the lake offers before launching the boat. I know what it offers and still launch my boat there often!  |
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| I am 100% behind the 50 inch size limit, I hope it happens soon. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | They have taken more then reported on pelican steve and you know that. The way they keep count of the fish is a joke. The tribal courts are a joke as to the punishments handed down to native americans if they violate . Its also that they take the spawners at that time of year. After years of this it has to hurt the lake as it has others. I personally think to manage a lake for trophies by putting a 50 inch limit on it is playing into the hands of the d.n.r. and the native americans. It gives them bigger targets and the d.n.r will say since a bigger limit is on and just about every fish going back there is no need to stock it. I just don't see where the bigger size limit will benifit the lake much at all. Make the effort and mangae lakes that are not speared. here one will have more control of whats going on and will be able to gauge success more easily.
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | How can the 50 inch size limit not help? There are more fish taken in a year from anglers than spearers. They do take there far share but they spear what a few days out of the year? Anglers fish all season thus giving them a much longer opportunity to harvest a fish. Mr.Pfeiffer, I think you are just upset because you are someone that does not agree with the size limit because you harvest fish and which that is your choice, but if we want a future on that lake, something must be done now! Because stocking is not happening! |
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Posts: 434
Location: searchin for 50 | Don't forget about them spearing in the winter time with no counting towards spring quota whatever that is. they do not just spear a FEW DAYS. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Winter spearing on Pelican is very limited and the impact is minimal. We are talking a few fish on that particular water, and GLIFWC enforcement has nothing to do with this issue at all. I'd bet that angler harvest far outpaces Native American harvest, and DNR figures and estimates support that bet.
Angler harvest targets the 'spawners' too, almost exclusively and has been MUCH (as much as 10 times) higher than Native American harvest. What are you suggesting? All progressive management and all conservation efforts should cease because of the DOCUMENTED minimal harvest by the Native Americans on ALL lakes in the Ceded Territory?? That's reactionary and ridiculous, and the main point here is missed in the noise; THERE WILL BE NO STOCKING ON PELICAN FOR AT LEAST A DECADE NO MATTER WHAT!!! Mike Roberts, Norm and I discussed this at length last winter during the overall discussion about Wisconsin's muskies and genetics. Once the study is completed, population studies will be undertaken and a decision on stocking will be made based on the results; to suggest some future conspiracy by the fisheries management folks from the DNR and GLFWC to aviod stocking muskies based on an ongoing conservation effort is just plain reactionary and baseless.
Alarmist statements won't change the reality Pelican will encounter over the next decade during this study. No stocking, total reliance on natural reproduction, and continued angler harvest coupled with Native American harvest, handling mortality, etc. will spell certain decline of Pelican's trophy potential and population of Muskies overall. Pelican sees more angler hours targeting muskies than many of the other Oneida County Muskie lakes combined. The pressure is there, and the opportunity to protect the majority of the remaining and future muskie population while creating a trophy potential should not be dismissed because of defeatist attitudes. This proposal has the complete support of the DNR and fisheries management folks, was clearly voted in during the Conservation Congress hearings last Spring, and we hope will go into effect this coming year.
Speaking to the GLIFWC theme, be careful making blanket statements about what this group does for enforcement, conservation, and much more in Northern Wisconsin, and in the future, be VERY careful not to even hint at a racist theme or commentary here, that will not be tolerated and certainly won't help in efforts to work with the tribes in future conservation efforts. My son works for the DNR, and does quite a bit of work in the field under a budget that GLIFWC provides. Hers a link:
http://www.glifwc.org/
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Posts: 30
Location: Wisconsin | What are the chances of getting the DNR to change the length of the natural reproduction study? A decade is a long time to wait and possibly find out that natural reproduction is not going to work! We could possibly be looking at a very, very low musky population 10 years from now and another 5 to 10 years to rebuild the population to fishable levels. I hope I'll still be able to fish yet when I'm in my 70"s!
Also, does the DNR have any jurisdiction over the Natives stocking lakes they spear? If not could this be an avenue to pursue? If we could get them to stock musky in Pelican this would help with the declining population.
Of course that stocking would alter any information that has been gathered for the Natural Reproduction study, rendering the study useless.
Hopefully you guys can answer some of these questions.
Good luck this fall,
HODAG |
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Posts: 17
Location: Antigo, WI | I was not going to reply to this thread, but it is funny how it has gone from what happened on Pelican during 2 tournaments to how spearing has decimated the musky population. I personally fished both the Kevin Worrall Memorial and the Hodag tournaments on Pelican. As Norm had stated in an early post there was a nasty cold front that had moved in the day before the tournament. I think the temps in Antigo on Friday were in the low to mid 70's at noon and a little while after, but by about 4 pm the temp had dropped to 50, not a good set up for that tournament. The Hodag was a bit of a surprise to me also, we had steady weather leading up to the tournament. On Saturday we were greeted with 20 to 25 mile winds out of south and southeast. We boated one shorty 28 inches and had one other follow by a mid 30. The wind made boat control difficult and really clouded up the water on the wind blown side of the lake. On Sunday we lost an upper 40's, had another fish about 40 up 6 times and 2 others 30 to 35 follow. Also, I believe that the boat count on Pelican for the Hodag was the lowest in quite some time, only 30 some boats.
We have to get beyond what has happened in the past, be it spearing, angling harvest or whatever and work toward protecting what is there today and building it for tomorrow. Mike and Norm have stepped up to the plate and got things started. But they can not do it alone. If you guys want to continue to think Pelican is the "Dead Sea" thats fine with me. It's just less fishing pressure and more fish for the rest of us. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Several years back the opener for muskkies was changed to the end of the month of may from the the first weelend in may. This was to protect muskies during spawing. The point I want to make is that the native americans take these fish when they are the most easily taken and are full of eggs. To say winter harvest is low is not accurate as those fish are not counted. You don't know how many are taken. I did not mean to state this is the only reason the lake seems to be less productive. I do however feel it is a big part of it.
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I again make my point as made in my post above. Where do they winter spear on Pelican? What locations have you seen dark houses out there? |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I am not on Pelican in the winter with any consistency, but have never seen a dark house out there. I have not heard of anyone telling me there was a dark house out there, yet everyone knows it gets winter speared???
I think everyone is blowing this whole thing out of proportion. Point #1 the most productive lake by far during the Rhinelander Musky league, Pelican. Point #2 One of the most productive lakes in the WMT, Pelican.
By the way, I launched my boat for one of my much to seldom September fishing trips on Pelican lake last night. I only moved one fish, but it was a fat 43 that ate my suick and swam inside the Frabill for a while.
Nothing wrong with the pond!!!!! |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have never seen a dark house out there either.
Norm, you son of a gun, good fish! Where'd you talk that sweetie into visiting the Frabill? |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Town Bar, not the one I was looking for.....but not complaining!
IT WAS COLD last night!!!!!!! |
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What happened to Pelican Lake?