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Posts: 3913
| Ok, I don't quite get this. My experience is that as waters cool, the muskies that were wandering in open water, following baitfish and mostly neutral, move back to shallower water and begin to get much more active. That's certainly my experiance with at least big bass and pike. And 'eyes; I used to hit the muskie lake at 4:00am and troll shadraps against sharp/deep drops to get one or two big 'eyes before light, then I would switch to muskies as trhe eye's shut downh. Only in the fall, like October+ fall here in SW MI, could I count on those eyes to be out of the weeds and stacked against the easy structure.
Anyway, as water temps cool, what do the previously suspendo muskies do????
1) prior to turnover??
2) after turnover??
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ranger,
Spend a bit of time looking into Limnology and linked 'turnover' subjects, I highly recommend using Google on this one.
'In limnology, turnover refers to the mixing of upper layers of lake water with lower levels'.
During the warm months, some lakes stratify warm water top and cooler on the bottom, with an area of rapid change of a few degrees featuring low oxygen levels below that level in the lower area of the water column (thermocline). As the surface water cools in the fall, it sinks and mixes with the rest of the water column, until the top and bottom temps are about equal. Oxygen levels are returned to higher levels, and since temps are pretty level throughout the column, the fish can and do move throughout the entire system comfortably. During this time some lakes can bloom pretty strongly, the algae effects the light penetration and weed growth, and oxygen levels in some areas when it dies and decomposes. This isn't a constant, has to do with fertility in the system, etc.
I have a couple patterns I look for during the turn. I fish dark water slop alot, and the stones on the primary and secondary during the day and WAY shallow lowlight. Follow the forage. like the reed/perch bite, rock/perch bite, panfish/slop bite, and you'll do just fine.
Now look at the two story lakes; those that are generally speaking deep and clear and thermocline with good oxygen levels above and below the thermocline, study what the ciscoes/like forage do and when they move in to spawn, what other forage is available, and you have it. | |
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Posts: 3913
| Aw sheet Steve, he called you a young pup. Take that and leave the rest. But your answer didn't help me very much. Down-dumb-size, just for me. What do the fish do in 300-400 acre CLEAR lakes with 25-40" bottoms with sloping sides and weeds all along the sides?
Mid summer, surface temps at 86*, the thermo was at 16'.
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Fish the slop or heavy cover early in the morning, right IN the slop and the inside edges, working your way out during the later morning. Docks and reeds, too if any are there. Look for the fish to be at the weedline base depth on the shaded side of the breakline, sometimes on the edge and sometimes off a few yards but still at that depth. Only variable is a big one, what do they eat there? | |
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Posts: 3913
| Right on. Thanks. | |
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| There was an article in In Fish a year or 2 ago and it said that turnover does not affect fish location...
Tom B | |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It certainly will if the lake was thermoclined with no oxygen below 11', like Lake George down the road from my house. Once the lake is turned and the thermocline is gone, we take muskies off the cribs in deeper water. Before, you literally could see the thermocline as clear as can be on the sonar, and there were NO fish under that line. Made the walleyes really easy, because thay were stacked up in 10' just above the thermocline level.
I'd also argue that very warm water temps like we've had with a set up thermocline and the onset of very cool nights guarantee a shallow bite. It's been a pattern I've worked with success for years, including tonight; Keith and I got out for an hour after work (hectic day for us both). He lost a fish on his first cast and got one about 40 minutes later, both in less than 2' of water. The temps in the shallows are 70.5. Out in tha main lake, temps even on top are 73.5. So cooler water, to me, means more active fish, and the baitfish are there in force too. TECHNICALLY speaking, turnover isn't an issue here, but the dynamics surrounding the turn certainly are. And, the action was just as this showed up....
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Posts: 227
Location: New Brighton, MN | Ok, that is helpful... but why do the fish come shallow beore/after the turnover? Is it because there is no oxygen in the deeper areas? What is an observable sign of turnover? | |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | While I am far from an expert on the subject, I totally agree on the shallow thing. Started to exploit that by accident a few years afgo when trying to get out of the wind up in Iron Co. Thougjh we are weeks away from it where I fish, I think the shallows remain the least affected and the water is more stable temp wise and O2 wise during the process. It also coincides with a cooling that just plain makes the shallows more comfortable to be in after a hot summer and why I think they are heading there now on the laes right around here. The bait/frogs/ lack of pressure up in the shallows is no detterant either. Thinking back on some of the waters classes at UWSP, I remember it baing said that vertebrates prefer stbil conditions to feed and still feed during turnover when these conditions are found(I think that is how it went). We have found that the shallow sand can be good too. When you guys are fishing slop, are you fishing vast sloppy bays, or isolated pockets of slop of both?? I have always struggled in slop itself in September, but know many do well. I tend to struggle more after tunrover, maybe fishing too shallow then when fish can roam anywhere? Are you still scoring in slop then if green? I usually stick to the rivers and flowages afterwards due to confidence but would really like to get better at post turnover meso to oligo type lakes. Thanks.
Edited by Reef Hawg 9/11/2006 5:51 PM
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Edited by Sponge 2/27/2008 3:58 PM
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sponger has it right...
Once the water temps level out, cool down and the weeds die, the slop bite ends on water where there's other cover. I do fish a couple lakes late and shallow where the weeds are green all the way through ice up. I take muskies on Pelican in a couple feet in the weeds in November in Musky Bay, but I also look for fish on the primary/secondary break on the rocks that time of year. I look at this as a progression unique to every system I fish, so each lake has it's own patterns from turn to ice. | |
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Posts: 667
Location: Roscoe IL | How does this apply to rivers that do not turn over? Are we looking for the deeper holes in this situation? Or, are we still working the slop during the fall transition/ Cold water period.... Last year it was a split between fishing the shallow weeds & suckers being picked up in the holes or the deeper water adjacent to a weed flat... But that was only last year. | |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I would have to agree with some of the others that mentioned the fact that the shallower water stabalizes quicker than the deeper water, and therfore that is where some of the fish seek. However, most of my fishing experience during turnover occurs on deep, cisco based lakes of northern WI. It is my experience that there are still plenty of suspended fish to be found. Depending on the fertility of the lake you are fishing, turnover may not be so extreme in terms of water clarity. A few of the lakes I fish you really can't tell they are turning other than the water getting a bit murky. I still catch fish out suspended over 40-70' of water during turnover.
Is it as consistant fishing suspended during turnover as it is fishing suspended during the summer. No, but they are still out there. I think the disadvantage comes in with less visibility for the fish equates to you not being able to cover the water as effectively. I can tell you right now I am going to fish lakes suspended during turnover that are a lot less fertile in nature. You just don't get the $hit mixed in the water as a more fertile lake.
Do the ciscos, whitefish, and trout in these lakes head shallow during turnover? I haven't seen it. If those fish are still out in deep water you are going to have a good population of muskies out there as well. The one thing you need to do more than any other time of year is check all your options. Up tight to shore, flats, breaklines, suspended, and the bottom in deep water. Case in point was a guide trip two years ago. My poor client got unlucky and planned his day during the middle of turnover. However, we still ended up doubling on two 44" fish that day by fishing deep water. One fish was caught on a sucker run near bottom in 40' of water, and the other 5-8' down on a bulldawg over 65' of water.
If it was an oxygen deal like some have suggested, I don't think I would be finding fish on bottom in 40' of water and more. | |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's a two story lake, with oxygen above and below the thermocline. This is from my first post on the subject:
'Now look at the two story lakes; those that are generally speaking deep and clear and thermocline with good oxygen levels above and below the thermocline, study what the ciscoes/like forage do and when they move in to spawn, what other forage is available, and you have it.'
I was specifically addressing the question Ranger raised, and was not talking about the 'two story' systems you are fishing. | |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Steve, I wasn't referring to your post at all. In fact I referr to more than what has just been said in this post, but in magazine articles and other media. All too often you here about the lack of oxygen during turnover, and that all the fish are shallow. Just letting others know that isn't the case. I guess I must have missed where Ranger requested information for lakes that weren't a two story lake, and I apologize for that. Ranger mentioned that of suspending muskies and I gave my take.
Ranger, perhaps the forage base may help in the discussion. What forage is available in said lake? | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No worries, I was just making it clear I wasn't talking the deeper two story systems, those are another animal altogether. | |
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