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| Question for Jason Long and others. How does weather positively or negatively affect the strike zone of a musky? What does a cold front do to strike zone, what does a warm front do to strike zone? I know water clarity has much to do with strike zone. Is there any evidence out there about how weather effects this? | |
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| Wow, awesome question. There is lots of evidence... but little proof. These are the questions I love.... since all answers are pure speculation. This makes us ALL experts.
I typically consider the strike zone the distance from which a musky can DETECT the presence of your lure.... through its senses (sight, touch, hearing, etc.). Obviously, environmental conditions have a huge impact on that.
As far as how weather affects the strike zone... it probably more affects the MOTIVATION of a fish as well its location. Worrall will probably jump on that one as being anthropomorphic... but you get the point. A less motivated fish will need a "better" opportunity in order to make a commitment. These are the two most difficult aspects to get a handle on.
If you simplify the question to how does weather affect MY definition of the strike zone... then it would simply be based on available light (how to make your lure most visible) and how close to the fish will I need to get my bait.
No clear answer... but I suspect this question will be discussed for a long long time.
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| Jason- I think the strike zone is the distance the fish will actually commit to striking the lure +90% of the time, i.e., the classic strike/lunge. From what I've read that's about one body length( John New's paper on strike behavior) and accounts of other's on this board and elsewhere. Of course I've also seen a couple of trout water Muskies actually blast + 20' at incredible speed and smash a lure. Perhap's the one body length rule is skewed by the age and size of the fish being studied. Over time could they be conditioned by experience's to strike from greater distances?
I think of the distance that a fish can detect the presence of either prey or a lure simulating prey as the "zone of influence". Meaning the prey/lure infuences the Muskie's behavior, if it's visual they rotate their eye's toward the prey and then start to posistion or stalk the prey, until they reach the strike trigger point. Almost said "decision point", would have heard from Mr. Sworrall on that one [:bigsmile:]
This leads to some speculation. I think the classic Muskie follow is a part of the stalking the prey phase in the Muskie's feeding process. The challenge is turning the stalk or follow into the final phase -> a strike.[:p] This makes me think that if I see a Muskie following within one (1) body length of that lure, I need to do something different with that lure to get that fish to commit to a strike.
A classic example is the figure 8 at the boat, i.e., change in speed & direction = prey escape behavior = Muskie strikes to capture the prey before it can escape.
Cast-n-Blast- I think the weather affects the zone of influence. Weather definitely affects the fishes behavior with regards to mood, i.e., active or inactive. The zone of influence on an inactive fish is much smaller. I know Mr. Sworrall, they can't think so how could they be moody? [:sun:]
The trick is turning the inactive fish into a active fish. Sometimes you have to put the bait right in front of their nose.
Like Jason- I to think local environmental conditions influence all three, mood, zone of influence and strike zone. Weather, available light, wind, water clarity, structure, presence of prey, etc, etc.......... Very complex interaction of all the + influencing factors can lead to a great day or evening on the water. [:sun:]
Al Warner
www.icantplatfindmyfoot.com
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| Wow, can I change my answer to Al's??? Ha Ha.
I really like Al's "zone of influence" concept. Can I borrow that one?
I think the general idea here is that a muskie cannot strike unless it has an awareness of your lure.... whether it is from visual contact, she can feel it, and dare I say hear or smell it?
Getting there attention is one thing... getting them to strike is another. Perhaps we are onto something hear in regard to the notorious FOLLOWING habits of the ski?
Just like we say that we can't catch what isn't there.... a musky can't strike what it doesn't know is there. Considering Al's zone of influence is where I typically start.... how do I get there attention. Then if follows prevail... I try to figure out what is missing to trigger a strike. At least by that point you solved the LOCATION portion of the equation.
Cool stuff. Who else thinks this theory holds water? Who thinks it is bogus? And of course... WHY? | |
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| Jason: You can definately say "smell". Have had some interesting "happenings", but time does not permit me to elaborate today.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com | |
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| Way way overthinking here.
Warm front-increase
Clouds-increase
wind-increase
high humidity-increase
increased light-decrease
high pressure-decrease
still water-decrease
cold front variable depending
on pressure and timing
not complicated at all
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| FSF- Gotta disagree- overthinking- I think not. The items you list affect the fish's mood not the strike zone, i.e., active or inactive. You can argue that the zone of influence is affected. but I have caught inactive fish, where I placed my lure within the strike zone and then triggered the fish. Just like watching it on a video- gin clear trout water.
Furthermore I've seen very active fish in flat calm water and with increasing light (sunrise).
Al
www.icantplayfindmyfoot.com
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| Well you can think that but...
My definition of the strike zone is the irregular area that must be penetrated to ellicit a strike. My feeling is that the answer to how the weather affects the strike zone is exactly as I put it. Some weather increases it, some decreases it. A more active fish has a larger strike zone. It's a simple equation for me, and I don't worry about anecdotal exceptions. I concentrate on the general expectations I have and use them as a starting point.
The fish react to EVERY bait they detect.
It is just not always an aggressive response.
Any bait that can be seen, heard, felt etc. by the fish is capable of influencing the musky, but that is a different subject. One bait may send signals that are received far away and another may have to bump it's nose. But that is separate from weather.
You also have to remember that there are many other things influencing the strike zone. Fish hunger for instance. Musky position. Baitfish position. Common forage movements in that area. None of them are weather and at times they far override the weather influence I am sure. [:)] | |
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| FSF- Your "strike zone" and my "zone of influence" are one & the same. My strike zone is much more defined than your's. But if that works for you OK, no problem here.
I also don't use the "ancedotal exceptions" as my starting point. Much knowledge about Muskies is ancedotal, i.e., unpublished and passed via word of mouth. While you may ignore the ancedotal incident's, I use them when the cues on the water tell me that there's a match to the ancedotal incident. Sometimes my mind subconsciously process's the cues and gives me that gut feel. Sometimes it's a lot more active concious assessment. Also, because it's ancedotal information doesn't make it untrue, that is unless you're lying. I have learned a great deal from fishing partners and other fisherman in ~ 45 years of fishing. I read voraciously, something I inherited from my father. He would sit down and read a whole volume from an encyclopedia set just for fun. Yes- published works are great, but there's a even more vast amount of unpublished information about Muskies. I started fishing for Muskies relatively late in life ~6 years ago and have very limited fishing hours chasing them. I can remember just about every Muskie I've encountered. Every time I go onto the water I use those references. I think MF is a terrific forum for sharing ancedotal information.
Back to the original question- Yes I think weather has an influence on the fish, it can turn them on or off. This will definitely vary the strike zone - even to the point for inactive fish where the zone of influence & strike zone are the same.
The strike zone may be as small as 6" in front of her nose. That's a situation where a suspending bait or jig w/ creature can get you connected with a Muskie.
How about a 6" strike zone ancedotal exception- The fish was sitting motionless facing away from me on bottom in small bay- in 12' of gin clear water - no weeds or wood within 50 feet of her. ~ four casts w/ #14 green Husky Jerk, no response. So I cast way past her & jerked the Husky Jerk down to ~6" off the bottom. Brought it to within ~ 2' of her, then when she did'nt move I twitched it to within 6" of her nose. She flaired her gills & inhalled it, hook set & fish on!
Now the beauty of this ancedotal exception. She was the same fish that took a #11 Rapala off my fishing partner about an 1 1/2 hours before on a small point about 80' from where she was setting. He was fishing Smallies, no leader, I was fishing Muskies. His "11 Rapala was lodged crosswise in her mouth. It was so deep, I didn't see it until I was unhooking her. Fortunately she was cooperative, so I could get it out without damaging her gills. No wonder she was in a negative mood. [:bigsmile:]
Al Warner
www.youdontknowhowtowatchtv.com | |
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| Al,
What a great piece of "ancedotal information" that we all can learn from. I consider these types of experiences (observations) valid research. Maybe not scientific... but in these types of circumstances... I don't think it is possible to have a disciplined science. This kind of info is ALL that we have to work with. Let's make the best of it.
The glory of your story is that 99% of the musky fisherman out there would have casted at that fish until they were blue in the face or they spooked it from the area... never figuring out WHAT it would take to trigger a strike response. The fact that you found something that works is invaluable info.... epecially for those guys that can't figure it out on there own. So now the question that we all should take a stab at answering is WHY did that husky jerk twitched 6 inches from her nose trigger a strike? Especially considering that no response was produced when the lure was presented in the same way but from a greater distance. | |
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| Excellent discussion! When I started this topic, my definition of strike zone was the distance a muskie will travel to hit your bait given the type of weather that is observed on that given day. If you measure that in feet or a general description I don't care. I think there has been good food for thought on this. It has even led to a secondary topic on those following fish. I was really frustrated with all the follows I got last season. At least I located fish so I was doing things half correct I guess. NOW, if I could just find the magic triggers to get these things to hit. That is why I'm interested in weather and how it affects strike zone. When I say weather I'm talking anything from a small change (sun behind the clouds) to a major storm to a slow moving front that hangs around for days. Knowing strike zone related to weather and how it affects the mood of the fish has a lot of potential to positively change our fishing I believe. I any event, I guess I'll still fish whenever I get a chance! Although knowing more about when it won't be a waste of my time to go fishing is better than hitting all the times where it is only convenient to go! | |
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| Perhaps you need to redefine your "zone of influence" and clarify it EM. You define it as the distance the fish can detect presence of prey or lure. I can agree with that, but my definition of strike zone is much smaller at most times. It would be a rare and wonderful set of conditions that create a "zone of influence" as you call it and a strike zone of equal size, and sometimes my strike zone can even extend beyond the initial "zone of influence" ie the follow.
I am not sure what you are taking from my post and what exactly you are saying when you reply but let me clarify my idea of an anecdotal exception, it would be the odd fish that is the exception to my general rules, and when confronted with it I generally file it and don't worry about it.
Here would be an example of an anecdotal exception, as I might perceive it, I am fishing a bare sand bar on the second day of a severe cold front with a surface bait that becomes fouled with weeds and is not even working but rather being dragged back to the boat as I curse. Suddenly a 20lb fish runs almost 30 feet from my left to crush the bait and the weeds. Should the fish be there? Should he be this agressive on a severe cold front day? Should any fish hit a bait fouled with weeds to the point you are dragging in salad? Anecdotal exception to most of my general rules and expectations. If I thought it was NOT, I would find a way to present a fouled bait in similar areas looking for a repeat performance. Your 6" strike zone on your musky probably would fit my rules nicely.
And I stand pat on my weather influence on the strike zone. I believe it to be exactly as I say it is. I believe the relationship from weather to strike zone to be direct. Good luck in your fishing. [:)] | |
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| FSF,
I think we both agree on the definition of the "zone of influence" vs. "strike zone". It sure would be nice if they were both equal in size... unfortunately the strike zone is always smaller.
As for the anectodal or "fluke" type of experience, it is still good info that we do not want to ignore. Strange locations, odd presentations, etc. can all teach us something. There is a reason WHY those flukes occurred... and often times some of those "flukes" can be duplicated if you understand them. If it doesn't make sense.... don't ignore it... try to understand it.
I bet 20 years ago a fish caught in the middle of the lake suspended over the basin was considered a "fluke". Now it is a very popular "pattern" and there are many theories to explain why it consistently produces.
As for how weather affects the strike zone.... here is something to consider. Although this post was originally questioning how the strike zone is affected by weather... why not consider how the "zone of influence" is affected by the weather? The old rule of thumb is to ONLY fish those gin clear, weedless, open-water forage based lakes during OVERCAST conditions. Hopefully, for my sake, most people will continue to believe that. However, I've found that although the fish may be holding deeper in those types of lakes when there isn't a cloud in the sky and not a breath of wind.... you can use those weather conditions to your advantage. Learning to use the abundance of light to send a "signal" further down into the depths you can often attract the fish from a greater distance... increasing your chances at getting a response. Even though the "strike zone" is percieved to be smaller under these types of conditions.... the INCREASED "zone of influence" can often work to your advantage. In other words, more fish are aware of your lure... so you have a better chance at one of them responding.... despite the idea that they all are less motivated.
Just a thought (to keep the debate going)....... | |
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| Oh now cmon Jason. If it's going to be a debate let me get my dictionary first.
I think anyone can do with fluke catches what they will. I look for repeatability, and predictability. If someone catches a musky on chicken gizzards I say great, interesting. If someone starts averaging a fish a day on chicken gizzards I perk my ears up.
I look for general rules. Simpler the better. The only things I tend to do a lot of deep thinking about is best bait, best color and best presentation. And who knows, that may be a waste of my time too... [:)] | |
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| Considering this whole "strike zone" and "zone of influence" discussion and how the motivation of the fish may also affect these...... how do we know when the best presentation is a fast run&gun approach versus a slow, finesse application?
To be efficient, you don't want to waste time finessing when you can be just as productive at triggering strikes and connect with MORE fish using a run&gun approach. I think the above mentioned "zones" are the reason behind WHEN these different types of presentations become more or less effective.
Yes? No? Maybe? | |
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| How do we know if a fish was a "fluke" or in FSF's words an "anectodal exception" unless we test it??? Who are we to judge?
Also, has anyone's thoughts changed on this subject after a full year has passed since we last discussed it?
jlong | |
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| I think there are to separate items being discussed in this topic. Strike Zone, which InFishermen describes as, the distance a fish will move to eat a lure. I think it may also be important to add a time (or lure speed) factor to the Strike Zone. A bucktail whizzing past a fish at 10 feet might not elicit a strike, but a Triple D dancing through that 10’ perimeter may cause a strike, because it’s just more available.
I feel Zone of Influence would best described as the distance at which a lure is detectable by a fish.
I think FSF’s original post did a good job of answering the original question. What effects the Strike Zone.
It think it’s important to realize that when talking Strike Zone you are talking the fish’s mood. Active, neutral, inactive and anyplace in between. I don’t believe we can directly affect the Strike Zone, it’s one of those things controlled by the fish. What we can control is getting a lure in the Strike Zone and make it do things to stay there longer. Thinking again with lure speed in mind, a fast bait may have a Strike Zone distance of 2 feet and a slower jerkbait lure may have a strike zone distance of 10 feet all depending on the lures zone of influence.
So how does that effect fishing? Well for me you need to take into consideration, water clarity, ambient light, lure color, lure vibration, weather, and latest patterns.
From weather and latest patterns try and make a guess at what the fish’s mood is, active, neutral, or inactive. From that pick a speed, color and action that best fits your guess. Go from there depending on results.
Experience on the water is where you separate a wild @$$ guess from an educated guess for your starting point.
O-well does that make any sense at all?
Nail a Pig!
Mike
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| Mike, I think you make a lot of sense.
For those that don't know, I fish with MRoberts a lot... and we do a lot of GUESSING [:bigsmile:] [:halo:] [;)]
jlong | |
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Posts: 155
Location: North Metro | Any recent thoughts on this topic? I think some of you can elaborate on what motivates a fish to hit given the weather and other factors such as wind and current produced on a lake. what has been your recent experience? | |
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Posts: 2361
| I have reread this whole post and it comes up without authors on it.
Here is what I now think. The weather influences are the same. Absolutely the same.
I didn't know fish had moods, and I am very suspicious they do not! Since I could not fathom what their "mood" might be, I will put them in the group of non relevant things.
Weather is a relevant thing and my feelings are the same. When we are talking about a strike zone we are talking about a specific relationship in space, of the fish and the target of a fish bite. It IS a simple thing and the weather affects it, as I say.
Some of the other posters(as I stated)are making things too complicated and bringing in non relevant items to the discussion.
Activity level is a separate discussion.
Zone of influence? Lets make it all as difficult as possible!
Fish moods? Only AFTER we understand women's moods.
My belief is that my simple rules cover weather influence on strike zone.
A hungry fish on a negative weather day might have a large strike zone, I will guarantee a hungry fish on a positive weather day will have an even larger strike zone.
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Ahhh Haah!!! FirstSixFeet finally made a mistake!!! Heh heh.
Are there ever any GUARANTEES when it comes to musky fishing?
Seems to me that the more you THINK you know about this sport... the more you get HUMBLED. Dang Blasted fish......
jlong | |
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| Since it is 18deg. and I can't fish, I might as well kill some time putting my observations here. The strike zone depends on what the fish is doing. A fish that is in the feeding mode, or moving to a different location will go a greater distance to srike than one that is burried in the weeds or suspended in open water. I have had fish come 20 to 30 feet to hit a topwater. No way did they see it from that far. One time I had one come from about 25 feet to a Hawg Wobbler. It did not come from under the lure, but right under the surface. I watched the V come in from an angle, which normally means they will smash a lure, only to put on the brakes and fall in behind it. It then swam up to it, bumped it with it's nose and swam off. A friend of mine saw one laying on the bottom this spring and jigged a lure in it's face for 45 minutes before it hit. I feel that scent plays a large part in this. Muskies have sensors on the lower jaw that detect scent. They have them for a reason. What is really important is to fish where they are and not where they aren't. | |
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Strike Zone