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Posts: 572
Location: Williamstown, WV | Hey guys,
I've got an honest question that I've always wondered about. I started using flouro leaders while casting and I started thinking that couldn't a musky possibly bite through it. I mean all it basically is is suped up monofilament, am i correct in this statement? I know I can cut it really easy with a knife where braided line is harder to cut. My main question is do you guys think leaders are really necessary considering that braided lines are harder to cut than flouro carbon and we still use flouro carbon leaders? Couldn't we just tie directly to the lure instead of a metal leader? I do use leaders but I was thinking about this. Any thoughts?
Shawn |
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Posts: 1462
Location: Davenport, IA | I don't use flouro leaders...but here is what I think of them:
it is a monofiliment (meaning 1 strand) but not made of nylon (I could be wrong on that though)
as far as bite offs...take 80 lb braid and 80 lb flouro. Pull them tight and cut with a razor blade. The braid cuts much easier. Now take a needlenose pliers and the flourocarbon cuts easier. Muskies teeth are more like the razor. |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Also the wear you would get by directly tying to your lure would break the line. Imagine what a snap or split ring go through. |
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Posts: 502
Location: Lincoln UK | There are only 2 schools of thought with flouro, those that love them and those that hate them,, I am proudly in the latter. I had a bit of an arguement on a different forum about them with a fella who liked them, turns out he had a vested interest in them as he sold them. IMHO they will cost you fish at the least and at worst leave takle in that fish probably killing it. Esox are not that bright and not wire shy, wire doesn't get bitten through so thats what I use. |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | You love them or hate them.
I am a believer in flourocarbon leaders because:
I have increased my follows to catch ratio casting.
I also have increased my number of fish boated trolling.
The quickstrike rigs I make get eaten, wire rigs gave me follows and inconsistant action.
I have got bitten off one time when a client tightened the drag on a big fish so he could gain line on her. She broke through the leader and never came to the top to shake the bait. It was a small bait but I never got to see the fish. I tested the drag after the fish broke off and it was locked down tight. Something had to give. I put the word out all over the lake to watch for this fish. She never showed up floating, so I hope she shook the bait. I did see a fish shake a bait free after a breakoff by a guy fishing with straight mono two years ago. The fish was 20 ft from my boat and air boarn when it shook the bait.
Flourocarbon leaders need special treatment in my opinion. You don't set the hooks like you have wire and rope.
I have changed my set-ups to more of a softer tip trolling rods.
With quick-strike rigs I will reel down until the line is tight, the rod will be pointing straight at the fish and the hook-set will be more like a hard pull while reeling at the same time. Some clients I have step back as they set the hooks for a better hook-set.
What I am getting at is: With flouro I don't use it like wire. I like to lay into the fish and keep the line very tight while the fish goes into the head shakes, then you own them.
Flourocarbon is not for everyone. Expecially if you are used to wire and extra hard hook-sets. Actually, I had Shep set the hooks on a sucker fish once three times as had as he could while I was yelling "EASY SHEP" and the line held. That was for sure a test to how much it can take when the line isn't between two sharp teeth.
I always run flourocarbon. I have only lost that one fish and it would have broke somewhere if the leader didn't give first.
Wire is safer for sure but flourocarbon will get you more fish. Just remember you need to adjust when using it.
I know after over 400 fish boated in my boat and 1 break off it has a place in my boat.
Other people will tell you it is not worth taking a chance. Thats your call. But, please use you head when you use it. You must take it easer than you would with wire.
I would use flourocarbon in heavy fished lakes, clear lakes and trolling.
I would use wire in stained lakes, muddy water, very weedy areas and fishing around wood like trees or stumps.
This is just my 2 cents.
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Posts: 572
Location: Williamstown, WV | Thanks guys for your input. Mike thanks a lot for the tips, I didn't know that about flourocarbon. I have yet to notice a difference in fish caught but I've only been using for 2 months so....  I think I'll give flouro an honest try this year and see where it gets me. Thanks again guys.
shawn |
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Posts: 5874
| Everything that Extreme Guy said goes for me. I need all the help I can get, and Flouro leaders help me catch more fish, period. I use it for my walleye spinner rigs, and when trolling and casting bucktails for muskies. I use Extreme quick strike rigs, and as he said, followers become eaters.
I have lost one fish do to a cut leader. The fish rolled up at the boat, and the leader got cut by the gill plate. This was a 4 foot leader, so I am sure of the same result with a 1 foot wire leader, as the Tuff Line probably would have cut, too. |
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | Great post Mike! I bought a few flouro leaders this year, this helps to get some confidence in them. |
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Posts: 5874
| I set the hook three times, because you had limp wrist drag set on the reel!
I don't worry so much about teeth cutting flouro. I set the hook hard! Flouro is some pretty tough stuff. |
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | Has anyone had problems with fishing flouro in cold water? I've had some ice fishing line that works great with cat toys, but once i toss it down a hole it's very brittle. |
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Posts: 663
| I used fluorocarbon (Climax) all last year and half of the year before. No bite-offs or other problems noted. Only changed to solid wire on a couple of gliders that seem to like the wire better. Any leader can fail as I've seen 7strand pull out of crimp sleeves or strands break from overuse. It's truly a matter of personal preference and what you're most comfortable with. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | PLine makes a fluro coated line that I use for walleyes during the winter and Steelhead during the spring and fall...good stuff.
I too make my own Musky leaders and sucker rigs from FC. I use 80lb Vanish and have had zero problems. In order to fish FC properly, you must make your own stuff. You have to constantly check for abrasion and knicks...if you don't, you will have problems! Have a knick in your own made leader?...Take the terminal tackle off and make a new one. Alot cheaper that way too.
Like Mike, I fish heavily pressured Waukesha Co lakes and even heavily pressured Vilas Co lakes. I've seen and converted up to 1/3 more fish than with wire. Believe it or not, FC works well with heavier wood baits like 8" Cobbs and HR's....no bending or kinking of 7 strand or solid wire and the action is just as nice in most cases. |
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Posts: 3513
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Extremes,
Quoted from you, "Flourocarbon leaders need special treatment in my opinion. You don't set the hooks like you have wire and rope. "
Very good point here... but can you comment further on what you mean by this statement? How do you set the hook "differently" than, say superline with a wire leader? This would be good for all to hear...
Steve
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| Mike
what rating are you using?
i have some 80lb that i'm loathe to use even on my downsized stuff
130 or 150 willl be the way i go, i know it's harder to tie, but i think i can manage. |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | I put many fish in the boat this year...all came on flouro! I even had a fish miss the bait and grab the leader...37 degree water temps. Had the net man been ready we would have landed that fish. She cam all the way to the boat with bait on the outside of her mouth and the leader all the way through her mouth. On top of that I have still used the same leader to catch more fish! |
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Posts: 55
Location: Nekoosa, WI | I asked the same question about flouro awhile back, as to why people feel it is nessesary. I had alot feedback from both proponents and opponents, with the majority of the people here on Muskie First saying that they use it and like it. The most common reason people use it is that it seems to give them confidence. Confidence is a good thing I will admit, but as far as fish being leader shy, I just don't buy that. I use single strand about 90% of the time and I dont have a problem boating fish. It does not matter whether I am fishing Petenwell or North Twin. I do not believe that Muskies are leader shy. I have caught countless Muskies at boatside during a figure 8 as I am sure that most of you have also. Then why is it that most people are worried about the Muskies seeing their leader but never take into consideration that they have their rod tip or half of their rod for that matter, stuck into the water during an '8' and their lure gets eaten? Are the Muskies leader shy but not shy about that great big 'stick' in the water swooshing around??? I think not! So it all goes back to confidence, not the fact that Muskies are indeed leader shy. As far as durability, I don't trust flouro like I trust wire as I have heard to many horror stories about flouro breaking, and all the maintainence that goes along with it. Bent and kinked wire is not good either, but when this happens, I cut off my leader and tie on a new one. Since I wrap all of my own leaders, I always have about 10 new ones ready for action and simply recycle my ball bearings. I don't use snaps either, and have'nt for the last 15 years or so, just another weak link. I am sure this will spark another debate with all the flouro purist's, but for those of you with questions about flouro and it's merits or demerits, I hope this helps. Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 2087
| When fish are active you could probably use a log chain for a leader .....floro will increase strikes in the long run. |
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Posts: 55
Location: Nekoosa, WI | 174lb single strand is smaller in diameter that 80 flouro. If the fish are not active and wont bite a bait with a wire leader, they will NOT bite a bait with a flouro leader either. If they are going to bite they will, if not, well you get the idea. Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 8865
| Jason I disagree...
I thin part of what people are forgetting about flourocarbon is that it is neutrally buoyant. It will not impede the action of your lures like solid wire. It won't weight down the front, slow them down, etc. It may be a larger diameter, bit its completely invisible. On highly pressured waters where the fish you're trying to catch has already seen 15 other guys lures today, flourocarbon might just make the difference. Do active fish care? Probably not.
But most of the time, we're on the water trying to trigger those neutral and negative fish.
On a clear water highly pressured lake? I believe flouro will make a difference.
On stained water in a remote location? Not so much |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24... |
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| Flouro works fine if your leaders are made correctly. It will increase your success on clear water systems. Otherwise I stick with single strand metal leaders. |
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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | I have very limited experience with fluorocarbon leaders, and not enough to form much of an opinion yet. But I have to believe the biggest difference in flourocarbon versus single strand wire leaders is going to be seen in the action that it allows your baits to have. So if you catch more fish with either leader, my gut tells me that the biggest reason is likely due to the action of your lure with that particular leader.
Aaron |
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Posts: 502
Location: Lincoln UK | I wonder how many baits are designed and tested for use with a flouro leader? I mentioned earlier that there were only 2 schools of thought on this and each will probably stick to their guns, well the flouro advocates may change when the do get biten off and the fish they always wanted swims away because of something that they could have done something about. |
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Posts: 55
Location: Nekoosa, WI | Esoxaddict, During the last 20 some odd years of my muskie fishing,(about 100 days a year) I have made many observations about the fish I pursue. One of these "observations" is that muskies are muskies, and there are greater things to trigger neutral and negetive fish than your leader. I have fished side by side with people who are fishing with flouro, and I have seen no improvement in fish catches under any circumstances. It is up to you and your lure to trigger fish that have seen it all in pressured waters or that are in a negitive or neutral mood. As I stated before, I too fish clear lakes, and still catch fish under all kinds of conditions on wire during all conditions. As far as improved lure action with some lures while using flouro, that may be correct, but with these baits, I have found that the tyable wire is as good or even better because of it's small diameter and extreme suppleness. Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 3926
| I'm a mostly-rookie....
I get LOTS more action with floro on all baits except gliders (phantoms and undertakers) which for me run better with an 11" (including snap and swivel) 174# straight wire. Twitch baits twitch better and my one-out-of-a-thousand suick just won't death-wobble-on-the-rise-like-a-MF'r on anything but floro. 15+ fish on that one suick, so don't laugh too hard.
With floro, my baits work better and I see more fish. I make my own leaders and save a ton of money. Plus, I won't fish a kinked leader, not a single cast. Expect any metal leader to kink when netting a fish. Floro don't kink. I dislike down time in the baot and so doan't like to stop fishing to replace a kinked leader. cast cast cast cast I've boated like 150 fish with floro without a single leader failure. I use 80# climax floro with a small stringease snap on one side and a 100# berkley bearing swivel+bucher splitring on the other.
I fish lakes that are clear water and get lots of fishing pressure.
Listen to Mike's Extreme, he's who turned me toward floro and I never looked back. By jingo, send me a PM with your home addy and I'll mail you a free floro leader. Why knot? |
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Posts: 3926
| PS - With respect to Jason Bovee above, I don't think I've ever tried the tie-able metal leader's he descibed. |
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Posts: 8865
| Like Jehova's greatest choir, huh Ranger?
LOL bringin back some fuzzy fuzzy memories there buddy.
The guy who turned me on to flouro uses a double uni to tie directly to the braid, which is what I've always done.
Any special reason you use a swivel? Is it just to prevent line twist, or what?
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Posts: 434
Location: searchin for 50 | I was using wire 7 strand leader and was losing fish regularly. I switched to floro and my catch rate went up a lot. I think with the floro you a little stretch so your not tearing a bigger hole where the hook went in. thats with using 80# power pro. Haven't lost a lure or musky to a bite off yet ,2yrs so far. After I land a fish and release it I check my leader any thing that looks doubtful i change the leader. a little common sense goes a long way . If Steve Herbeck has confidence in the stuff then why shouldn't you. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | So my question is what is the difference between the brands of Flouro? Why is Seaguar so much more expensive than Climax or Berkley Vanish? The cheap piker I am, especially with gas prices now, why should I buy Seaguar over Climax? Is it a matter of how "limp" the lines are?
I need to narrow down what brand flouro I should buy!
Edited by CiscoKid 4/14/2006 11:23 AM
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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Travis,
Are you sure that Climax is cheaper? The Climax that I've seen is in 10 yard spools versus Seaguar's 25 yard spools. So if that's what you're looking at, multiply the Climax price by 2.5 to get an equivalent Seaguar price. When I've seen them at the same retailer, the Seaguar is actually cheaper per yard.
Aaron |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Travis- My number one criteria is toughness/hardness, i.e., resistance to teeth. Try the old bite test on same weight flourocarbon's from different manufacturer's. You will be amazed at the differences, i.e., just like your skin is sensitive to temperature gradients. Your teeth are sensitive to hardness of materials you bite.
Have fun!
Al |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Seaguar is what I have stuck with.
I use 50lb for trolling, 80lb for casting and quick strike rigs.
I tried 80lb for trolling but it was getting beat 4 to 1 by the 50lb.
This is what works for me. I know it's on the light side and don't recomend it to everyone unless your have been around the muskie block a few times. Any kind of abrasion or flaw in the leader it should be removed from use. Cut off the ends and remake a new one. I will make 20 to 30 quick strike rigs and 40 to 50 leaders every year. I also make up wire rigs and use them when the water is dirty or when I fish in stained water.
I have fished North and South Twin for years and always beat the wire leader boys I fished with. Most of the guys I fished with have switched to flourocarbon and they told me it helps. I don't want to be responsible for any lost fish. Flouro is not for everyone.
A way back I read someone wanted to know what I do different on hook sets?
I will reel my rod tip down and lean forward until the line is tight, then pull back hard while stepping back. The reason I step back is so I will have the line tight with plenty of room to pull back still. This will allow me to keep lots of tention on the line while the fish trys to shake the hooks free. Once the head shakes start you usually own that fish shortly aftyer that.
One other tip I use with this lighter flouro is to use extremely sharp hooks. Owners and Gamakatsu in 1/0 for Spring and bigger in Fall. Remember, always use hooks big enough so you get the best results. The bigger the suckers the bigger the hooks.
I also run multiple hooks on my rigs for extremely good hooking percentages.
Also, PLEASE don't wait when a muskie picks up a sucker with multiple hooks. You never know how fast a muskie can swallow a sucker. Quick strike is QUICK STRIKE.
I see some people out there following a muskie around with the trolling motor and waiting for the best time to set the hooks. I DON'T believe this is a good practice with suckers and treble hooks at all. Circle hooks I can see if you use them. My view is why wait and waist time. Quick strike and hit em......Fish ON !!! |
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Posts: 55
Location: Nekoosa, WI | As I was looking through this thread, people are talking about how long they have used flouro and have'nt lost a fish to it "YET". It seems that those of you who do use it are in fact "just waiting" for it to happen. To each their own I guess, but I will stick to wire, both single strand and Tyger and those of you flouro fans I'm sure, will stick to just that, at least for now. MikeK., Your outfishing your buddies on Twin had to do with other factors other than your ''FLOURO''. I grew up just 25 minutes from there in Three Lakes and fished it often, about 3 times a week. The fact that you always out fished your amigos had more to do with other factors than it did with your leader. As I mentioned before, I have logged about 150 days on Twin and have fished along side people fishing flouro, and I out fished them, just as you did with your fishing buddies. It has more to do with skill, bait presentation, bait selection, spot selection and good ole plain luck. Good luck to everybody in '06, it should be a great year. Jason Bovee  |
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| Seaguar invented Flourocarbon - it is by far the best - being cheap will cost you eventually.
I use 40# for casting smaller baits.
50# and 60# for bigger baits and 80# for large baits.
I've been using it for 5 or 6 seasons now - before that I used heavy mono.
I use 80# on Quick strike rigs and circle hook rigs for sucker fishing. They far outfish steel.
THE biggest benefit from using Flouro is that when your musky rolls, thrashes or corkscews - she's not getting sliced up by steel.
With the zebra mussel clear waters we fish - using Seaguar leaders is a no brainer.
If you figure what it costs to tie an 18 inch leader yoursellf- you come out way ahead, I use 60 inch flourocarbon leaders for trolling - works for me and my clients and tournament partner.
Kevin Moore |
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Posts: 3926
| Jason Bovee you are just one scrapper of a dude! But I expect you're reasonable too, so consider this observation.....
I was at an early and big Cass Lake outing where M1 folks were not moving too many fish. Mike E rolled in a few days late and proceeded to move and boat fish left and right. Pretty much ran away from all of us. While I'm not in his class regarding skill and experience, others present at the outing most certainly were. He was more successful, by every measure. The one significant difference between him and the rest of us was that he was the only one using flouro leaders.
I have no doubt you are an excellent muskie guy, Jason. Excellent. I wonder how your numbers might change if you were to try using flouro yourself for a while. Oh, I've never had a flouro leader fail but I have had metal leaders fail.
Take me fishing sometime Jason! |
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Posts: 55
Location: Nekoosa, WI | Ranger, A srapper of a dude heh! Thanks I guess!!  This is an endless debate that will probably go on forever. It seems to be 50/50 or so on wire and flouro, and I am sure a few guy's from both sides will switch at some point, one way or the other. As I said before, it is a matter of confidence, plain and simple. Thats it. You can't tell me that a muskie will care if you have ''wire'' in front of your lure, but could care less about a rod swoshing around at boatside while you are doing a figure 8!! I hate to tell you this, but in reality muskies just really are'nt all that smart. It's just that they are very ''moody'' at times and can be a pain in the @$$, but that is one of the things that I love about them. A friend caught the same fish twice last year that was 52'' and approaching 40#'s. Thats right, twice,...in 24 hours!!! So if they are really that smart, why in hell would that big old 'smart' fish make a mistake twice in 24 hours on the same bait!!?? I rest my case. As I said before, it comes down to confidence and thats about it. So use what you are comfortable with, and in the long run you will be succesfull. Jason Bovee Ranger, I am sending you a PM. |
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Posts: 3926
| Ok, I give up. Take me fishing, Jason.
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Posts: 55
Location: Nekoosa, WI | Ranger, You give up to easy! LOL I am shooting you a PM. Jason Bovee |
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Flourocarbon Question?