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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Okay, so I finally broke down and picked up some double sided crimp sleaves yesterday to make some leaders with. Up until this point, I have been using knots for floro, and tying (although I'm not sure what I am doing here, I've never had a failure) my 7 strand leaders. I am going to be making some heavier floro leaders, and it sounds like that can be a bear to tie.
Any hints as far as what to watch out for, preferances etc that you can give a brotha for using sleaves for floro and 7 strand?
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | buy a good tool not a cheap one, bass pro or cabelas has a nice one for around 40 bucks, make sure you buy the right diameter crimps for the size your using.....be sure especially on fluoro or mono, DO NOT crimp the edge of the crimp down leave the ends flared a little so it doesnt cut into the material! i use crimps and knots on my fluoro stuff i plan to get some pics up soon! |
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Location: Contrarian Island | Joel, I have been using my own crimped 180-200 lb fluoro leaders for over a year...they have never even come close to failing...the key is to crimp them correctly! most guys just smash the whole thing down..this is wrong...go here for some useful crimping techniques....
http://www.leadertec.com/tipsandtechniques/crimp_techniques.html
here is one I did...this is the right way...heat the tag end up with a lighter then tap it down (mushroom the end).. crimp them tight but not overly tight..they will hold!
Edited by MSKY HNR 3/21/2006 8:32 AM
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 crimp.JPG (24KB - 90 downloads)
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I have used crimps for many years, and I crimped them wrong until I found the leadertec site just a few days ago. I had the wrong crimp tool, but even with that, I never had a crimp failure. I am now waiting on my orders for all new leader stuff so I am doing it right. New swager, new double barrel crimp sleeves, protective tubing for the loop, and sampo ball bearing swivels with stayloc snaps. Should turn out really well when done.
If things are done correctly, the crimp should hold just fine. heating and flattening of the leader material on the tag end (as in the picture from the last post) will help even more. I know there will be many on MF that would disagree with me on this, but if your drag is set correctly, you take care of your equipment and make your leaders correctly, no fish will be able to break your crimp or pull your leader material through it. If these fish can ever get to 70 pounds, a 90 pound leader with equivalent snaps, swivels, etc is not going to break...your drag should give first.
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/21/2006 9:07 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | i have tested mine with all of my weight (190lbs) against them...they held fine...NO musky is gonna pull 190 lbs worth ....if the drag isn't locked down
at least not any I know of ! 
Edited by MSKY HNR 3/21/2006 8:33 AM
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Brad- A nice looking job. Obviously you are using the sleeve manufacturer's crimping tool (those usually are'nt cheap). The mushroom of the tag is a nice touch. However, I would be concerned about the swivel ring or the snap wearing through the fluorocarbon., i.e., from casting and or lure vibration. Have you seen any problems?
On my hand tied fluoro leaders I can tie very tight to the swivel ring or snap to limit movement & wear (no loops). Just curious if this is a factor with fluoro using crimps.
Have fun!
Al |
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| Is there a similar source for leader materials in this country?
Nice look crimps, by the way.
TB |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | i think alot of the problems that guys have when crimping is over doing it!! heres somthin really cool to try if you have some fluorocarbon and a crimp... run your swivel or snap thru the loop and slide your crimp on!! now beofre you do any actual crimping. hang it from a hook in your rafter or a eye in somthing strong and pull, it is amazing how tight the crimp will hold without even being crimped down!!! try it out and see. |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Here is where I purchased my crimps and sleeves from. They did not have all of the supplies I wanted in particular, but they have quite a bit of stuff to choose from.
http://www.seastriker.com
I bought my fluoro from Cabelas, along with 12 sampo swivels with stayloc snaps. Then the nylon tubing I bought from Leadertec...only place I could find it at this point in time.
Steve |
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Posts: 128
Location: Germantown, WI | Stamina sells a lot of leader components. Can anyone recomend a crimp size? They offer an .053 and .065 inside diamater for the double sleeves. I have been using 100 lb FC. Thinking about using heavier. Where do you guys get 130 lb stuff?
Elby |
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| Thanks for the link. Very helpful! |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I know cabela's has the 130 in their brand made by seaguar...
Steve |
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | Hmm, I made a post about Titanium leaders and everyone said to stay far away because they have crimps. Now it seems like everyone thinks they're wonderful. |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Seems there are only 2 - 3 on this thread here (myself being one of them) that feel crimps are fine as long as you do things correctly.
Steve |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | steve i agree with you i have been experimenting with both over the last 5 years, havnt noticed any difference one way or the other, however seems to be a split on the guys who use fluoro, half will tell you crimps are bad, knot only, the other half say knots are bad you should only crimp, so to silence the critics, i decided that my new leaders, that i am selling will have both. i am nail knotting them, the crimping behind the knot, then glueing on top of that!!! im trying to get some good pictures of them but they keep comin out blurry!!! i offer these in both 100# as well as 130#!
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leaders 004.jpg (27KB - 112 downloads)
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Posts: 2012
| Obfuscate Musky - 3/22/2006 10:14 AM
Hmm, I made a post about Titanium leaders and everyone said to stay far away because they have crimps. Now it seems like everyone thinks they're wonderful.
Terminator Titanium leader crimps are Junk
You WONT have problems with double barrel crimps and floro - if you use quality materials and crimp tool - I have 150lbs stay-loc snaps on my floros.. and that is the weekest link .
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | VMS- Something to think about-> The strength of the flourocarbon material is inherently dependent upon the cross sectional area of the material. Crimping to the point where the material compresses causes it to cold flow, i.e., reduces that cross sectional area- Therefore, logic says you have reduced the strength. This is equally true whether the material is either cut by a muskies teeth or it's been reduced in diameter by crimping.
A 5->6 wrap nail knot/cinch knot that has been superglued will never fail. The weak point is the wrap around the snap/swivel/sprit ring itself, i.e., this is where the greatest pressure is going to be applied.
Look at the photo at the top of this thread.
Al
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | I took pliers to my titianium leaders trying to pull the crimps loose and I couldn't even get them to budge. I did it on all of my old ones after that old thread. I'm 170 pounds with decent muscle, If I can't pull even one loose I'm not too worried about a fish doing it. I'd personnaly be way more worried about Flouro. However my plan this summer is to try a bunch of differant stuff and see what I like. I've used titanium the last 4 seasons without a failure. |
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | OM- BenR is correct about a score (small fracture) in the surface of a titanium wire leader's ability to precipitate a failure when the titanium leader is placed under stress (bending) or other stress. The same principle allows a rock chip in your windshield to propagate as a crack running across the entire windshield or the EMT/fire crew to shatter the door glass out of your car door with a small spring loaded metal punch.
I'd recommend caution when testing Ben R's theory, i.e., because the titanium materal typically fails explosively under tension/stress. Wear protective gear, especially eye protection.
As for my comment about crimps & cold flow of fluorocarbon material, etc. Some of you may view this as so much crap. However, see this -> http://composite.about.com/library/glossary/c/bldef-c1149.htm
Cold flow occur's in many common materials, not just plastics. The rule is the harder the material, the less cold flow. Have you ever seen a really old house where the windows had ripples in them? Yes, that's cold flow of the glass via gravity. Glass is just a viscous substance that appears as a solid to the casual observer at specific temperatures. Ahh, the wonderful world of physic's.
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 3/22/2006 5:35 PM
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| Thanks for bringing up the Leadertec name as I had lost it. Tht is where I have ordered from. I went down to a smaller strenght leader, a 7 strand, that had a coating. In September I went to Canada nd trolled some 12" and larger baits. Came back to Michigan and fished a local lake in October. Lost a smallish 30 incher because I did not check the crimps after the Canada trip and the 7 strand pulled thru the sleeves. I use 3 sleeves. Now I don't know what to try this year. May buy solid wire and twist some with no sleeves. I followed the techiques on the Leadertec site, bought their crimping tool. Anyone have any thoughts on coated multi-strand vs. uncoated? |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | EM...
Question for debate: Have you ever used a heavy duty crimped leader (say...90lb material) and have it fail?
I'll give you your point on cross flow, but no matter what you do, knot or crimp, you are compressing the material. A good knot will compress too regardless if it is glued or not. In the situations we are considering here, that compression would be undetectable without the aid of a microscope and extremely accurate measuring equipment. The amount of strength lost is not going to be very much (maybe at most 25%...I'm just throwing this out there...couldn't find any good resource.... or so dependent on the quality of materials we use), and if a drag is set correctly (or backed off) once the hook is set, the drag will be pulled before a crimp will fail. Also, the average fish we catch (although some will claim to have a larger average size) is a mid 30" fish. A 30" fish against a 90lb - 130lb leader, crimped or knotted, tied to 80lb superlines has little chance of pulling a crimp, or breaking a good knot. Even a 50lb fish would have a tough time on the heavy equipment we use these days.
Anytime I have had a knot fail was due to the stress on the line right where it hits the contact of the item you are tying to (swivel, jighead, etc.) The stress at that point is extreme. That is why anti-chaffing material should be used to help protect the material, and spread out the stress somewhat.
Again it goes back to how well one sets up and takes care of their equipment. Anytime I have used mono or fluoro in the past with crimps, I am constantly checking to see if all components are holding up....that is what I would suspect many on here do as well. Either way, nothing is perfect, knots and crimps can and will eventually fail, just like swivels and split rings. It is up to us to make sure our equipment is up to the task, replaced as needed etc.
It really comes down "to each his/her own"... This is a great thread.
Steve |
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | VMS- Nope, I've never had a crimped fluoro leader fail. That's because I have never used one. I want as close to 100% material strength as possible. Even though I tie 130lb leaders for our customers, I don't use them myself. Typically I'm using a 80lb fluorocarbon leader with 65lb PowerPro.
However, I agree 100% with your post above. Failure is unlikely if the leader is properly crimped, i.e., to minimize compression of the fluorocarbon material. That's the operative wording- "properly crimped". A lot of folks won't go out & buy a $35-$45 dollar crimping tool. Even if they did they probably will over crimp. In that case if over crimped their 130lb leader may have 30lb breaking strength.
The downside to hand tied fluorocarbon leaders is that it takes a lot more material to make a leader, i.e., to tie a 12" leader it takes about 24" of fluorocarbon leader material. The a 5-6 wrap cinch knot I tie typically takes ~4" of material + 2" of tag end waste for each knot. It also is hard to get them precisely the same length.
This discussion, especially Bob Pieske's experience has also got me seriously thinking about using heavier fluoro leaders, perhaps w/ crimps for certain situations, i.e., especially on lakes I know which contain some of those super fish. I think I can tie 200lb fluorocarbon- but it remains untested as of today. I can get fluorocarbon leader material up to 550lb, obviously it's not cheap. Is there a muskie market for 550lb fluorocarbon leaders?
"It really comes down "to each his/her own"... " VMS 3/22/2006
Have fun!
Al
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Here would be my question on crimping with the correct tool: I just purchased the correct tool and have yet to receive it and play around with crimping.....
If you are using double sleeve crimps and you are crimping with a "cup to cup" crimper and you are set up to crimp correctly, how can you "over-crimp" if you are using the correct cups and correct sleeves? The crimper can only go so far before the crimper is closed. To me, that would seem like the time to end your pressure... Would this be correct? I already understand that I don't crimp the ends for that could create a cut in the line...
Steve
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | VMS- If you're using the sleeves & tool recommended by the flourocarbon manufacturer/supplier, then I would expect no problem, except for some minor reduction in breaking strength..... If you're using an off the shelf sleeve and crimper, i.e., designed for steel or seven strand, you may have a problem with overcrimping.
Keep in mind cold flow is not instantaneous- it takes time- so your leader might seem fine the day you make it, but say 5 days later cold flow will have effectively reduced the overall diameter at the crimp point. The only way to really know is to make a couple-leave them set for a few days, then test them with a pull scale.
Have fun!
Al |
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Posts: 2012
| Al -can knock it till you try it - use a proper crimp it will not fail ....trying to tie 130Lbs floro is a pain in the A$$ and personally I would never use 80lbs....to each thier own....but landing 70+ last year on floro including one pushing 40lbs without a failure. |
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Justin- I'm only presenting why I personally don't use crimps on fluorocarbon. I can tie a 5 wrap cinch knot in 130lb fluoro in less than 30 seconds. Why should I use a crimp?
Have fun!
Al |
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| I use 200 lb fluoro...I crimp them as they are easier to do...I don't over crimp and I am 100% confident in my leaders...
use whatever you feel confident in...I know what I'm sticking with... |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | That is the beauty of this site!! We get views from all sides to help make an informed decision.
I am going with crimps, but have no reservations about trying knots either. I will probably have some of both to see which I prefer more.
I have greatly appreciated the viewpoints of EM, and will not condemn him for not trying crimps. He has brought up some good things we should all be thinking about and is sharing his views...more power to him.
Steve |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | That's the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks guys! I was tying my floro and my stranded leaders and haven't really had any problems as of yet, but I think my 7 strand would be a tad easier to work with if I used crimps. Now I just have to get da tools to work with the crimps. Thanks again! |
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