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Posts: 1086
| Calling all motor gurus and/or hopefully maybe someone tied to Johnson/Evinrude/Bombardier. If this is not the place to post this type of thread (not a muskie board persay), please direct me to where I should send this info. Just posting this here due to the great network of people and good knowledge base that is here.
I apologize in advance for this lengthly post..but I want to be thorough and detailed with my description in order to hopefully get help to finding the solution to my problem.
I have a 1997 90 hp Jonhson outboard motor, two-stroke, oil injected, carbed motor that's really got some sort of mysterious "issue." It's Johnson's 90 ELEU motor.
Motor runs and starts great and operates flawlessly...with EXCEPTION of wide open throttle (WOT).
Once I open this motor up, ripping across the lake at WOT...the motor running at 5,000 rpms...running about 36-37 mph pushing at Crestliner 1750.....about a minute or so into the run...the alarm will sound, the "hot" light on the tach will light up and the motor will start to surge as if a sensor has tripped the motor into something like a "limp home mode" cutting either the fuel or cutting the spark to the motor as to not overheat the motor and not do any internal damage to the motor.
I just purchased this boat, used, back in either Sept or August of last year, 2005. The previous owner did say he knew of this problem and took this boat and motor to a local marina that he had purchased the boat from and has had all of it's service done by this marina. They looked that problem and at that time they replaced either one or two thermostats. I have the work order. That was done on June 7th, 2005.
Previous owner at that time thought the problem was fixed. But being the previous owner didn't have time for the boat any longer, decided to put it up for sale instead. I come by and buy the boat in Aug or Sept of 2005. I take the boat for a test drive and we find the same problem to exist. I told the previous owner, pending the problem is fixed by him or reduce the sale price, I'll take the boat. He didn't want to mess with it, reduced the sale price, and offered to at least take the boat to the marina, talk to the marina, show him his records, etc and ask the problem be fixed for me, the new owner.
Marina calls me to say the boat is "fixed" I show up, pay for the service which consisted of new thermostats...again..and now new water pump kit, new impeller and inspection of the cooling system. They deemed the problem fixed and the boat to be good to go.
I get the boat out on the water that day...rip it WOT..and find the problem to not be fixed. I put a call into them immediately. They tell me to bring it in. I ask how soon they can get it back to me. They couldn't promise it to me quickly enough being that already, they were receiving boats from people to be winterized for winter already and they were getting into the Fall mode. I told them I couldn't work with that being I had a couple substantial fishing trips coming up that I couldn't risk not having the boat for. I told them I'd work with my boat as-is and just not run it WOT and then I'd bring the boat to them later that year in th winter for them to work on when I wouldn't be needing the boat any longer due to hard water.
Well...then come to find out..this marina doesn't have a tank or any way of testing boats without using an open lake. So...hard water conditions really prolonged the search for the cure to the problem.
Then soft water comes. They test my boat and "tell" me that my tach is "bad." Not sure what test they did to determine that my tach was bad. But being that that "hot" light..and all my idiot lights are incorporated with the tach...that's the "story" they gave me. They said the tach was sending back bad info to the motor. So...they told me they'd need to order me a new tach. Well...I bought into that story for the time being.
They replaced the tach..then water tested the boat...only to find out the problem at WOT and at 5,000 rpms...still existed, again..alarm sounding and the "hot" light coming on with the new tach and the motor going into "limp home mode" again.
So...upon further diagnostics that they did, they then call me to tell me that now the "rectifier/regulator" is now bad. And now that needs replaced too and that they didn't have it in stock, so they'd need to order that.
So.....ignorantly...I buy into that story as well. So they order this new "rectifier/regulator" and install it and lake test the boat and they deem the problem to be solved and fixed and I can come pick the boat up. That as as of today, Saturday, March 11th.
I go up and pick up the boat from the marina, again...pay for this problem solving for a third time (previous owner paid the first time, I paid the second and third time) and I head out to the lake. I put the boat in the water. I do a proper and thorough warm up period with the motor, slowly crusing the lake at idle speed for a while, then slowly bring the motor up to speed, but not to WOT. I run around at 3,000-3,500 rpms for a while. Then after a while...then I opened up the motor and bring it up to 5,000 rpms and then about a minute into it...the alarm sounded again and the motor chugs and goes into "limp home mode" again!
Problem STILL exists.
After a third time of being looked at. It now appears this marina is just ghost-chasing the problem and is just throwing expensive parts at the motor hoping the problem to be solved.
Anyone know of this problem or experience this problem? Any know of solutions? Who can I talk to? Any help would be so much appreciated.
I think that about covers it.
Thank you.
Edited by MACK 3/11/2006 10:03 PM
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Posts: 364
Location: Kentucky | Mack,
I'm no expert but I can relate. I think you should definitely find another mechanic if possible. Not trying to oversimplify your problem, but I had a similar situation... you might check your neg battery connection on the cranking batt. Mine was loose once and had same symptom. Or, it sounds like it could be plugs or fuel related. Running Stabil or Sea Foam or such?
Sorry, those are the easy suggestions. Not trying to insult you or a difficult situation. Hope you get it going soon! | |
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Posts: 1438
| When I was taking auto class in high school, the teacher once said: "there are auto mechanics and there are parts changers, I don't want you guys to grow up to be parts changers"
Sounds to me like you happened into a "parts changer".
I'd certainly find a different mechanic.
As for the problem? Sorry, no clue.
Scott | |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I'm not too familiar with the johnson 90hp, but I do have a couple of ideas you can try...
Take the boat out, get it good a warm, then run the motor wide open until it overheats (that is what I am thinking is happening.) Take the cover off and feel place a hand on the cylinder heads, checking each particular cylinder. If you can, find the hot spot by touch. You should be able to feel it pretty easilly. Once you have found that, you have now started to narrrow down your problem.
What I am thinking right now is that somewhere in one of the two water jackets or passages leading up to the heads in the motor, there is a clogged passage, and cooling water is not getting to part of the heads. You probably still have water coming out your pee hole, but something is not flowing like it should. That would predicate the hot warning and the low rpm. Since the thermostats might be right on the back of the water jacket as well (at least they are on a yamaha....that is where I am unsure on the johnson) you can throw those into a pot of water, heat them up and see if they open like they should.
My suggestion: Get new head and water jacket gaskets, and have them replaced. At that time, have the water jackets cleaned and checked. Reinstall, and head to the lake. you will see two things: better compression (more power) and should have better water flow. This is also good preventative maintenance as well.
I'd definitely be wanting the old parts back from the dealer/mechanic you worked with. it would be very interesting to find if the thermostats were NOT replaced and that was your issue all along.
Something is clogged....everything else has been done, so that is the only thing really left to check.
Steve
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Posts: 1086
| Thanks for the reply guys.
Steve....I'm guessing too that there's gotta be something internal that' clogged up...as in the power head.
My question to this marina is this:
If they replaced the tach and this rectifier/regulator..and the problem still exists...then that tells me that both the tach and this rectifier/regulator did not need to be replaced at all. And that my original parts were most likely were in fine, working condition.
If they try to tell me that these two parts were "bad" and needed to be replaced, I'd then ask what sort of problems should I have been experiencing due to those two parts going "bad?" I never noticed an issue with my tach. It always registered and worked. And I have no clue what this rectifier/regulator does..no clue what it's job it...unless it's responsible for sending the info from the motor to the tach. Regardless...neither of those two parts were providing a solution to the problem. Then in that instance...in my minds eye...they didn't need replaced.
What a joke this is....
Wish I could work a deal out of this marina for a new 4-stroke outboard for all my "pain and suffering."  | |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I hope they would not have to pull the engine off the cowling...but that might be something they have to do as well...Reason being that if something is clogged in the powerhead, they will have to somehow get in there and clean it out...I hope they can find it by taking the water jacket off and going back that way.
What bothers me about how the marina treated you is that the particular check that I mentioned should have been one they SHOULD have done in the first place. but...with no test tank, they probably don't have test wheels either to put a load on the engine.
If you end up taking it to a fix-it shop, definitely do NOT go back to the marina you started with. From what you have described, they have not put the correct time in on the engine... I wonder if you can get some of your money back since they never DIAGNOSED the problem to begin with....they just threw parts at the problem. I would get in contact with the owner, explain your situation to him/her and just see what happens. Worse case you have nothing to lose from where you are at now.
Steve
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Posts: 1086
| VMS - 3/12/2006 6:58 PM
Worse case you have nothing to lose from where you are at now.
Other than a BIG hole in my pocket from all the parts they've thrown at it and the labor costs. | |
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Posts: 1120
Location: West Chester, OH | I'm not familiar w/your particular motor but I can say that every other rectifier & regulator that I have known were strictly integral to the charging system: Regulator governs the voltage going back to the battery from the alternator. Rectifier converts AC from the alternator to DC for the battery. Have a difficult time imagining that either of these would cause an "overheating alarm."
How much engine function (temp., timing, etc..) is controlled by computer? Are there sensors to monitor these functions? Have had some bad experience w/electrical components that failed under temperature-specific conditions: an anti-knock sensor in our van that caused random loss of ignition spark until engine reached normal operating temp & an ignition "black box" on a Merc outboard which caused random misfire under warm-up. Parts changers @ the dealership took 2 days before discovering a service bulletin about the anti-knock sensor. Finally fixed the Merc myself after 2 different shops "fixed" different things.
I agree w/Theedz - you're working w/parts changers. I'd try a few inquiries further up the food chain. Someone @ OMC/Bombardier may be able to steer you to a really seasoned mechanic or possibly they have a file of service bulletins like the one that bailed out my Dodge dealer.
Good luck. My favorite mechanic, who has lots of experience w/British & Italian stuff, says that electricity is either working perfectly or driving you crazy.
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Posts: 1096
Location: Hayward, WI | First they have to verify is motor is actually overheating or if you are getting a false signal. If motor is actually overheating and thermostats and water pump are good, I would check for a leaking water tube grommet on the powerhead. If false signal, then have to start digging. First thing to check is that motor has proper spark plugs and good spark plug wires. RFI from wrong plugs or bad spark plug wires will give false warnings. Then start at the temp switches and check the warning system from there.
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Posts: 1086
| They've checked to see if the motor is actually overheating..and they have determined with the equipment they've been using that I do not have an actual overheating problem at all. They've been using some sort of temp sensor gun or something of that nature to point at the engine block and power head to see if it's overheating they're claiming that's not the case....for whatever that's worth.
I've asked about plugs and plug wires and even asked them that if it needed a tune-up to go ahead and do that. I've been told twice I'm fine in that area and the motor doesn't need a tune-up...for whatever that's worth.
I dunno. :shakingmyhead:
I'm just completely in dismay over this whole situation... :shrug: | |
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Posts: 1096
Location: Hayward, WI | Even though they say that it has the correct plugs in it, double check it should have Champion QL78YC plugs in it. If it is not overheating then you need to figure out why it thinks it is overheating. Unplug the temp switches, there will be one on each head, one at a time and see if that fixes the problem. If still does it then a little more indepth testing needs to be done. Also, this motor is equipped wiht Quickstart, which automatically advances the timinig when the motor is cold, is this working? Could be related to the problem. | |
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Posts: 1086
| kjgmh - 3/15/2006 1:52 PM
should have Champion QL78YC plugs in it.
Good to know. I'll check and see.
kjgmh - 3/15/2006 1:52 PM
Also, this motor is equipped wiht Quickstart, which automatically advances the timinig when the motor is cold, is this working? Could be related to the problem.
Honestly...I have no clue.
This motor never has a hard time starting or running at any other operating RPM range other than at WOT...that's it.
So...in the reality of it all...is if this marina calls me back and thinks they want me to drop more money into this thing and them not eat any additional costs or expenses...I'm going to tell them where they can go. I'll then at that point go and collect my boat and be on my merry way and I'll just run this season with the motor as is and I'll just know I can't run the thing at WOT this year and I'll wait till next winter to save up more money and have this problem fixed.
Right now...I've blown more than my budget on this motor and my wife is so d@mn p@ssed off at me rigth now for all of this..that if I spend any more money on it...it wouldn't surprise me to see her trying to make me sell the boat. Which won't happen mind you...but...I can see her getting really ticked off and going off on me.
I can see it now...I'm going to have to buy an entire new bedroom set of furniture or a whole new family room set of furniture for this one....
Edited by MACK 3/15/2006 4:03 PM
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| Mack, I have 2001 Johnson 90hp with exact same problem. if you are still around and have any input please give me a shout. I have tried new optical sensor, new power pack and cleaned carbs. driving me nuts. thanks Bill [email protected] | |
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Posts: 40
Location: United States | I've got the same motor only a '96. Is your oil fed off a reservior? I have had my motor shut if self down due to low oil thus preventing itself from overheating. You could always pour some oil directly into the gas tank at the proper mixture. If you don't overheat, your direct oil feed is not working. | |
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| Thanks for idea. it is does have the built in oil tank. i will try a direct mix in gas can to rule out. also going to try new thermostats before i have mechanic pull powerhead. | |
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Need help: '97 Johnson 90 HP Outboard