|
|
| Talked to someone well known in the metro who is on the water daily with alot of friends and he reported 4- 50' class fish have been found floating dead in the past couple weeks,,anybody fishing the metro please fight less and try to take less pictures of the fish you catch, not tryin to preach just report,,,Monday I was on a local Tiger lake and suckers were found dead in shallows with some live ones up next to shore looking stressed out..."its a "hot" one this year |
|
| |
|
| I found one on White Bear lake week and quit fishing the metro.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | No guide trips for me this week.............Canceled the ones scheduled on Pewaukee.
Water temps in the high 70's yesterday. Might hit 80 today.
Going to upper MN this weekend for a week. YEEEE HAAAA !!!! |
|
| |
|
| Mikie were ya heading in MN, hitting big pond or vermillion
Troyz |
|
| |
|
| What are temps on the Mad. Chain? I was thinking of heading up there but may go elsewhere if temps are too high. |
|
| |
|
Location: The Yahara Chain | Monona was 76 degrees last night, temps are not a problem. Released a fish last night and one Friday night both fish required zero effort to revive. They both took off like bats out of hell. If you are worried about the fish don't troll, cast the weedlines. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | Saw the same thing on WB Saturday AM....I'm out! |
|
| |
|
| Mad Chain water temperatures were 78 to 85 degrees this weekend from late night lows to midday highs  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20245
Location: oswego, il | What are the water temps up in northern wi? Air temps are up in the 80's to low 90's the past 2 weeks. |
|
| |
|
| Believe it or not water temp on Vermilion is 80 degrees when the sun is out., Try to keep the BIG fish in the water or they WILL die.
Have fun
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I was out last night on tonka with the family for some fun in the sun.
85 degrees.
It's too hot for fishing right now. If you do get a fish, it's gonna die.
Next week it's supposed to cool down. Give it some time or go bass fishing.
BTW, those carp at the Maynards docks are getting REALLY big! Anyone interested in going out for some golden tarpon? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Pewaukee brown trout I call those bugle lipped golden slime balls..
I have gave the guide stuff up until I get back from MN.
Don't bring the fish out of the water if you catch one, thats if you have to fish.
Going North on Saturday..................... |
|
| |
|
| What about everyone that give up their local fishing to come to MN because "the water is too hot?" Well its too hot here too! Not sure why it's ok to fish here in the heat, but not elsewhere. The PMMT left a few floaters on Tonka last year too. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Wade,
What is the water temps on Millac's. (spelling?)
This trip has been planned since last year.
Maybe we will opt for other fish. |
|
| |
|
| Water temps from 83 to 84 on Vermilion yesterday. Another day of 90+ won't help. It's not better up here than down there. Fish for smallies if you’re heading up. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Water temps on Pewaukee Lake 77 degrees last night.
Hard to believe its that warm way up there.
We will fish for something. Smallies and walleyes would be great also.
We need a cold front...............Some rain or clouds for a week........PLEASE !!! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | Yeah Koepp it's been crazy hot in Minnesota and it doesn't look like we'll be getting a break from it for another week...maybe a little rain but 90's as far as the eye can see.
What are the temps on Cass...anyone know??? |
|
| |
|
| heres an option guys..
usually go fishing on weds nights but its toooooooooo hot... instead last night I went to the movies,,,"war of the worlds" then snuck in and saw Mr & Ms Smith too,,,two thumbs up,,not has good has fishing but very relaxing sitting in a nice cool dark movie
Ill make some people mad here but I might save some metro fish,,,Apple River Flowage stays cool most of the summer,,please file on the right for death threats |
|
| |
|
| Mike -
I don't konw. I've been on four different lakes in the past week (bassin) and the temp has been above 80 on each. It's hot. Wasn't taking a shot at your, moreso at several others. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 419
Location: Appleton, WI | Last weekend on the water I saw surface temps at 71°. This was the norm on the three lakes that I had fished in Vilas County,Wisconsin. But I'd suspect that from the past heat spell they are probably closer to mid to upper 70's. I guess it all depends how cool the nights have been up there. Maybe some local boys can chime in on what they currently have.
catch ya later,
Krappie
P.S I wanted to add that these were on clear water lakes so maybe on the darker water it would much warmer.
Edited by Krappie 7/14/2005 11:51 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 880
Location: New Berlin,Wisconsin,53151 | Hey the salmon are biting on Michigan, its a great time in between Muskie fishing. We hooked up on 5 fish, 2 were in the 20lb class, but that wasn't a good night, you should beable to limit out in acouple of hours.
They also make great grill buddies, just ask Sanks he's the Grill Master on salmon.
Netman |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I was up at Thornes yesterday and Josh said the north end of the pond as 84 deg. Off shore may be better. Check the water temps in the middle. Your a master troller Mike, take a crack at it and give me the GPS coordinants  |
|
| |
|
Location: Athens, Ohio | I gotta agree with Treats, if anyone's got the knack for trolling for muskies down to a science, it is Captain Koepp.
West Va. water temps last week were 84-86*, so that's all, folks! Any more and the fish will come up pre-cooked. m |
|
| |
|
Posts: 724
Location: Southern W.Va. | Water temp was 84-86 degrees last weekend here in W.Va. at Woodrum Lake. The weekend before on the Little Kanawha river it was running about same .
Question: Do southern strain of fish have a hiogher stress level? Caught a sub-legal last weekend and on release it took off with no problems.................Just wondering
Mauser |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | Its really hot, but do you all know for sure that those fish died due to the heat or was it something else? Could it be that a bunch of live-baiters have been out with their kill rigs or just some plain mishandling of fish? Lots of novice types will keep a fish out of the water for five or ten minutes to take the hooks out and photos and will do that no matter what the water temps are. Of course those fish are in much greater danger in the warm water.
But if one kept the fight short, never took the fish out of the water and just did a water release, it seems one would reduce the stress on the fish greatly.
I doubt many novice types will stay home just because the water is warm.
Just a few thoughts. |
|
| |
|
|
No "novice types" won't stay home during warm weather, but we can.
Warm water holds very little oxygen, and the whole process of landing a fish is much more stressful than in cooler temps. Especially during extended periods of warm weather, which in MN we've had, and it looks like will continue to have.
If you're going to fish, do it in the morning. Don't take fish out of water for any reason.
Consider going barbless for easier realease during the warmer periods.
The bigger the fish, the more stressful it is. Big fish have a much harder time reviving in water that has low oxygen levels, and even if they swim away, delayed mortality is a much greater threat than normal.
JS |
|
| |
|
| If Cady and Hulbert pulled off the water something must REALLY be wrong.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Herb, a sucker would live 3.4 seconds in this bathwater.
Don't go out. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 223
Location: minneapolis | So what temp is too high?
Clearly the metro lakes are running 80 +
But farther north ( Leech, Winnie, ect ) could be lower- and if so- I'd like to know what you guys think is the max temp to fish. 77-78 ? as I plan to be fishing next week and need to plan accordingly. Thanks |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8820
| Namekagon for me. Any farther North and I'd be fishing Lake Superior... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 207
Location: Mpls, MN | Hey I'm a novice! I resemble that remark...ask Troyz,Treats,HappyHooker,Fishpoop, Komer, etc... Hell who can blow 8 fish in a week and only get one in the boat! ME!
I read Hooks post right before I was thinking about going out but I didn't get home until later. Glad I didn't go.
Good thing about the novices, they don't see as many fish let alone find them, like me. Oh well I can go caught some smallies and scout out some other shore options on a few other lakes. |
|
| |
|
|
Leech and Winnie will be as hot as anything else up here in the shallows and on the surface.
If the water is 80 for an extended period of time, which it has been, then I take more precautions or just don't fish.
That's just my opinion, and others may not agree with that.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Just a thought - get real.
"If Cady and Hulbert pulled off the water something must REALLY be wrong"
Do you really think Mike Hulbert drove all the way up by Cady to not fish.
|
|
| |
|
| Forecast is 90+ till sunday, planned a trip to the big pond with HH, I'm out, of to go tubing and building brownie point with family, I'm just worried my beer might get to warm before I can finish it.
To Hot to fish, to cold at home
Troyz |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I hear what you're all saying. With 85 degree water temps like Treats mentioned, the water is just to hot. My main thought was about the novice fishermen who probably kill a lot more fish than the more experienced fisherman do.
So, I'm going to stay off the metro waters until the water temps cool down too. After all, we can fish to ice-up.
But I am curious at what temp is it OK to go back out. Are mid-70s good?
Good luck all when the water cools down.
Edited by Herb_b 7/15/2005 1:13 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Herb,
Mid 70's is prime for major muskie action.
Mishandled fish is the biggest problem, too many pictures, net and fish comes in the boat to be worked on, etc. I see it on our metro lakes all the time. Not to mention dropped fish while taking pictures.
Water released fish is best, fight the fish quick and unhook it or cut the hooks at boat side.
If a picture is needed(upper 40's), use the 10 second rule. One quick pic and put her back.
I agree 80 degrees is too hot and 85 is out of hand, its killing me to not fish.
Water temps went back up 2 days ago(79 - 80 degrees), I have not been out since.
Not too often we pray for a cold front, but we could use one now.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | Yeah, I always keep the fish in the water and only take it out for a few seconds for a quick picture no matter what the temps. I fight them quick too and know how to handle a fish with some energy left in her.
We have the release process down to a routine and usually have the fish hooked, caught, and released within a couple minutes and only out of the water for ten seconds or so if we do take a picture. Then the fish is released healthy and we're right back to fishing. 
Fishing is fun, but not if it becomes to risky for the fish. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | You guys sure you are not all PETA members??
Just kidding, i'll be taking the week off as well to let things cool down.
Steve
Edited by Phoenix 7/15/2005 5:41 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | Not to take anything away from the "theory" that the fish died due to heat/fishing related stress but..... Having fished the metro lakes I have of late witnessed many large fish sunning themselves(or doing something) in 1 foot of water. They are coming in very shallow because they choose to, even though it's hot. Now, most all the metro lake that these fish have been found dead on get a great deal of recreational traffic, ie. jet skies. I submit to you that some or most or all of these fish may have been killed by jet skies, water skiers, etc.
If the fish really wanted cool water they could suspend deep. On WB even though surface temps are in the 80's, 10 feet down it is considerably cooler. However, it would be interesting to know the ppm of oxygen in various areas of the lake, and at different depths. Anybody out there able to do this? THe DNR could, and should, if large fish like these are dying.
I have not heard or seen any reports, rumors or otherwise, stating that people have been catching large #s of 50" fish on metro lakes. Do any of you know otherwise?
It seems to me that it is speculation to say that these fish died as a result of being mishandled by fisherman.
Steve |
|
| |
|
Posts: 699
Location: Hugo, MN |
Steamy Water Temps from Northern MN. Was up there all last week.
Bemidji - 77-81.5
Plantagenet - 79-81.5
Mantrap - 78-83 |
|
| |
|
| Just out today sat,,,,the lake thats nearest my house is nokomis a tiger lake,,,I went there to do the "smart" thing???? I went swimming with the dog,,,
the east shore is littered with dead suckers I could walk up to a couple of live suckers in the shallows reach down and pick them up like turtles in a pet store,,I turned them around and gave them a push out to deepwater hopefully they will make it
no suckers are not muskies but they are part of the system and are a clue has to whats happening in it,,,
If your looking for something to do or want to see something intresting take a drive over to lake Nokomis in MPL's and walk the east shorline especialy the strech between the point and little beach,,walk the dog or jump in and take a swim while your there,,,I wish I was technical enough to download pictures on the internet maybe someone reading who knows how can go over and take a few and post,,Phoenix no disrespect at all but you might change your view if you stop by
if you do fish in the metro I would try to avoid the "darker" tint waters they are hot tubs right now |
|
| |
|
Posts: 207
Location: Mpls, MN | Read Hooks post and figured I walk down since I live about 2 blocks away from it too. The pics I took were along the point about 500 feet north. In maybe 500 feet here is what is I saw. And yes it is bathwater. I took about 20 photos and could have taken more. Maybe 30 dead suckers in about 500 feet along with a dozen or so perch.
http://www.silver-fox.us/gallery/album03 |
|
| |
|
Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | Hooker,
Non Taken. I was only offering up another hypothesis. I am not aware of any facts to prove that fisherman are killing big fish in the heat. Not saying it's not possible or even probable. Still wondering why when I was on Harriet and the water was almost 80 degrees the fish would choose to come into the shallowest, hottest part of the lake.
Why do they come lay in the sand on the North End of Mille Lacs when it get hot?
I just don't know. There is still so much about these fish that we just don't understand yet.
That's why I am advocating getting the DNR to look into it. They can affor to do the research, and havve the personel who are qualified to do it.
Guess I am just playing a bit of devils advocate. Besides, i like to blame jet skiers for anything bad that happens on the water since they piss me off so bad most of the time.
Hooker, sounds like you live near me. We should try to go out and fish sometime together; when's it's cooler.
Steve
|
|
| |
|
|
Muskies will be in hot, shallow water because they are comfortable in it, but that doesn't mean exhausting them in shallow warm water by playing them out is something that they can survive.
People go into sauna's, hot tubs etc., that doesn't mean because we can be in them, that we can excersise in them, or prolonged exposure can't be harmful.
You can't make the conclusion that because they are in shallow water, that catching them isn't harmfull. The two things are very different.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 341
| You guys scared me to bass fish instead of chasing muskies......I never thout I would say this but these two Bass fought as hard as a 39 ski and released great in 83 degree water.
Actually got a nice rush from the first one when it hit a 10'' slug o.
I'll give the skis a break until the heat wave breaks and have some fun with other species.
Edited by muskycore 7/17/2005 9:56 PM
Attachments
----------------
 big bass 8lbs.JPG (98KB - 194 downloads)
7lb bass 2nd.JPG (86KB - 193 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | I ain't buying it. Surface water temperatuers are not a good indicator of when to stop fishing. Sure, they may be a reasonable guideline, but use it as a caution flag instead of stopping the race. Minimize the duration of the fight and minimize (or eliminate) the time out of the water for pictures and hook removal and the fish should be fine. Most of us are very accomplished at fish handling, we need not be scared to do so. Some of the temps in the backs of the bays were 85+ at the Goon last week - think anyone stopped fishing?
What the HeII do I know?... I live in Utah.
Sorno
Edited by sorenson 7/17/2005 11:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Sorenson, it's more then surface temps. If the surface temp is 85 while 1 foot down is 75, it's not a problem. That's what the water's like when you first start seeing these temps. We've had 80+ water for a couple weeks now with a run of 10 days in the 90's with little to no wind. Under these conditions it'slike being in a smog alert for the fish. Very little O2 and high temps.
In the Goon, I doubt that the temps were that high for long and I also doubt that 2' under the serface they were very high as well.
If I get time today I'll run out to tonka and take temp readings at different depths and post them.
Edited by Muskie Treats 7/18/2005 7:26 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I took the weekend off from fishing and spent some extra time with the family. The water should cool off some by the end of the week after the cool front.
Face it, this is not good fishing weather no matter what. Staying home and resting up for when the fish do turn on may be the best thing to do.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | shifted gears to smallies yesterday and had a hoot. used the time to learn a part of a lake i didn't know before with smallie baits. good use of time, after 10:00 am. we started jumping off the boat and then a good afternoon nap and hit some golf balls before callin' er a weekend. |
|
| |
|
| I dont know that you can compare the goon to the MPLS metro..were talking about lakes that are clustered around one of the biggest population centers in the midwest,,the goon is a remote Canadian lake it dosent see 1% of the pressure the metro does ,,Hooking mortality in heat is a bigger issue here because of so many people fishing and some of our lakes are 200 acres where the goon is thousands of acres where theres probbably at least some current however slight flowing through it |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | hooker - you really can't compare the two; but that was really my point. Sure, you may have some lakes that are going to experience stressful conditions, but there's many others that are probably just fine to fish. I just didn't want anyone to think that because surface water temps got above 80 that we should all start evangelizing the virtues of 'see and release' fishing. Many people out there think that muskie anglers are a bit too militant about letting others know what's 'right' already.
Some of you have stopped fishing these lakes - I can admire that. But the filp side of that issue is that now the best and most qualified fish handlers are no longer there and the people who routinely mishandle fish are the only ones left on the water. Some just need some education, others don't care. Sometimes it's nice to live at 4900 feet elevation...
K. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | I will repeat my posted question here; How hot is to hot? What guideline is being suggested or implied here that us concientious fishers can follow? Or isn't there one?
Steve |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2378
| Phoenix -
80 seems to be the temp when most start staying off the water. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I looked this over, and found that there is a very limited amount of informaton about warm water and Muskies. Trent U. (a VERY complete muskie rerference material source) has some material, but one article I read actually states there is a lack of study on the subject.
I asked two biologists (one weighed in here already, so that's three) and all said water release, fight the fish only as long as necessary, and fishing in temps in the 80's isn't too awful. 20% to 30% are going to die no matter what the water temps according to a couple articles I read about angling mortality and muskies. What it comes down to is no one has come up with a 'do not fish muskies' temp limit that I can find. I'm sure there are so many variables that a chart would be near impossible to come up with.
When the water warms, one MIGHT be seeing more fatalities because the fish gas up faster in warmer water before the denizens of the bottom get them, and float. IMHO Once the temps hit 90's, the fish are pretty negative and seek out the coolest portion of the water column anyway, and get REAL tough to catch. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 440
| So..........we have had water temps over 80 on a 400 acre lake since the second week of June. The air temps have very consistantly been 85-95 and overnight lows in the 70's. The thermocline has set up at 19-21 feet. Are biologists are saying that I am ok to fish? I will, I don't have a problem with it so long as science says it is ok. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | I was on Crescent Lake in Oneida County this last weekend. Water temperatures were 79-83 depending upon the time of day.
We saw nothing in shallow (less than 14'), and the sonar screen was full between 20' & 24'. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I just ran over to tonka for 1 hour today.
Surface temps from 78-80 degrees. That's a 5 degree drop in 2 days. We've also had 2 days of winds gusting from 25-40 mph mixing things up. I think that would be enough to feel ok about the quality of releases again.
I also found a dead ski in the 45" range that looked to be dead for 4-7 days (pretty well gone). That's the 3rd I've seen this year. In comparison, I've seen 3 floating over the last 2 years combined. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'll be talking to two leading muskie biologists on Tuesday, both who manage or did manage warm water muskie populations. I'll let you know what they have to say.
|
|
| |
|
| I assume the North Metro chapter of Muskies Inc. has cancelled tonights scheduled outing on Lake Independence. I mean the water temps have to be well over 80 in that sewer. Since most of the metro guys in Muskies Inc. aren't fishing I would assume they would cancel the event? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 26
| Not sure about that...
However, I was camping on Indy this weekend and tubing and swimming in the 88 degree water temp, no fishing - just family time,and that temp was on Saturday, Sunday it probably went up more since the air temp was 97 that day. Hopefully its cooling down from there, it wasn't even refreshing to jump into, not to mention the algae & Crap floating, yuck. |
|
| |
|
|
Here's a paraphrase of what Rod Ramsell had to say about muskies in warm water.
Warmer water loses it'a ability to hold oxygen, fish are cold blooded animals, and with warmer water thier metabolism increases.
What this means is, fish consume oxygen faster in warm water, which is holding less oxygen.
This also means that they need oxygen faster to recover from being "excersised" on the end of your fishing line, than they do in colder temps.
In a nutshell, fish need more oxygen in warmer water, while warmer water holds less oxygen.
The stress of being caught in hot water with low levels of oxygen will kill fish that wouldn't have died in colder conditions.
There isn't a more qualified muskie biologist in the states that Rod Ramsell.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8820
| <The stress of being caught in hot water with low levels of oxygen will kill fish that wouldn't have died in colder conditions. >
I think that pretty well sums it up. It doesn't mean you WILL kill fish, it just means that overstressing a fish in warm water is more likely to kill it than overstressing it in cold water.
I think we all need to make our own decisions about how to haldle warm water temperatures.
If you stop fishing, good for you.
If you don't, good for you.
It wasn't that long ago people were shooting them at boatside or clubbing them in the boat.
Perhaps its time to think about what we ARE doing -- closed seasons, increased size limits, C&R, better nets, better handling techniques, stocking, genetic research, breeding, education... If I see someone mishandling a fish, I'll suggest how they might improve, presuming they care about the survival of the fish. But I'm not going to tell someone they shouldn't fish. All the efforts we put into preservation are for a reason so we can go fishing and catch muskies.
|
|
| |
|
| I have read all the speculation and theory posted here and while I agree with the logic I'm not seeing any real data as a result of solid research, therefore what we have are a bunch of opinions. I'm guessing the reports here of high water temps are based on the surface temp sensors in your boats? Don't underestimate the temperature variance only a couple feet down in many lakes even with this heat. If you guys are really worried about it why don't you go buy a temp sensor that you can drop down on a cord and see what the temp is where the fish are on the breaks? |
|
| |
|
| You know this subject would make a great "On line chat" if you could find someone qualified,,Ramsell,DNR, etc |
|
| |
|
Posts: 7068
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Call'em HH, if you can get them coordinated into one night, I will (with fairness) moderate it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 132
Location: Elkhart, IN | There is not much data on the subject. All I see here are a bunch of experienced anglers deciding one way or the other on what to do during a warm water period based on their experience and maybe someone else’s. I don't see anyone telling anyone they had better not fish or they are fools if they don't keep fishing.
I personally will not fish when the water gets to 80. I've seen what I can do to them when the water is that warm. Especially for a prolonged period. To me, it is common sense for ME to stop fishing.
There are a lot of valid arguments to continue fishing. That's great. Keep fishing if that is what you want to do.
I liken this subject to swallow rigs. Did it really have to be proven that swallow rigs killed fish? Yep, for some people it did. Some still don't believe they kill fish. I feel this subject is very similar as some feel pretty strongly they are right without much proof to back themselves up. Some will need proof before they change their minds. That works either way too. I know I would need some proof that it doesn't hurt them before I'll start fishing for them when the water is 80+, because my experience tells me it does. I have made the choice to err on the side of caution and stop fishing rather than keep fishing and in the future someone comes out with a study that proves fighting fish in hot water kills them.
But, until someone comes out with some proof either way this really comes down to doing what you feel is right.
Have a good summer, I can't wait for the snow!
Brian
|
|
| |
|
| Another one of those "where is the study" arguments.
Just because there hasn't been a specific study done to see how much muskies can take before they die we shouldn't believe it?
When two of the leading muskie biologists in the world, Rod Ramsell and Bob Strand tell us things about fish handling, fish stress and the like we should be smart enough to listen.
Believe me, two -three weeks of 90 degree weather makes the water very warm beneath the surface. I've done enough disolved oxygen and temp profiles to know that.
Water can be 80 degrees from top to bottom in 12 feet in these conditions.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8820
| Skarie
How much difference do you feel it really makes?
Just by fishing we take a chance that a fish might die. Foul hooked, broken snap, lure in the gills...
And what is the point when it becomes detrimental to the fish? 80 degrees at the surface? 80 degrees 10 feet down? Is 78 dergees ok? How about 76? The best way to preserve the resource is not to fish at all. If nobody catches any more muskies, no more muskies will ever be killed by anglers...
Considering the average amount of hours spend on the water per angler before actually catching a fish, is this really an issue??
Personally, if it's between fishing this weeknd or next, or fishing at night instead of during the day, many people will simply hang it up for a few days or a week, and that's great. If you have the luxury of fishing today, or tomorrow, or the day after, somewhere right down the street it's not a big deal to just not fish because the weather got hot. But you can't expect someone who planned a trip 8 hours north several months in advance to just cancel it because the water got hot, and drive 400 miles and then just not fish because the surface temps are 80 degrees. For those folks, not fishing for two weeks in July can very well mean "I didn't get to fish at all last summer"
Considering the average amount of hours spend on the water per angler before actually catching a fish |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | More Data Needed,
I do have a temp guage on my Aqua View. I was going to go out yesterday and give examples of what the water temps were at various depths. Due to the fact we had 2 days of 25-40 mph winds it would render the matter moot due to the water mixing. Maybe later this week I can get around to it.
If you want to go out no one will stop you. Just use your head on which bodies of water you choose and how you hand the fish. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I spoke with Frank Pratt and Dave Neuswanger on the phone today about the temperature issue. Dave managed a couple Muskie fisheries in Missouri leading to extensive experience with warm water over a long period of time and muskie mortality. He stated that the muskie tolerates warm water better than other game fish, and the results of release and recapture in water temps at 80 and a couple degrees above (even up to 86) were excellent, and in the case of one lake he managed, many were caught and mishandled in 80 degree temps and yet muskies caught in that water exhibited one of the highest survival rates in the US. He stated that obviously, one needs to take care of the fish, but that it is not necessary to quit fishing muskies in water temps in the low 80's. He quoted some study material indicating that muskies can survive in water temps over 90 degrees, something he says is unlikely to happen, and will many muskies gravitate to WARMER than average areas of the lake during summer temps in many cases. I should have the hard copy of that information very soon.
Frank said basically the same thing, but both cautioned that there is increased mortality to consider if the fish is coming from 60' down on a trolling bite into MUCH warmer surface water as a result of capture; that the fish's location at capture needs to be considered. He said that Walleye and Trout were WAY more susceptable to stress from warm water, and the fight alone would kill most brown trout in high water temps. He stated the muskie is on the far outside portion of the scale of concern when considering angling in warmer water temps.
Synopsis of the conversation? Handling is important, release the fish as quicky as one can, water release is a good thing. Prolonged battles as a matter of course should be avoided, but that's a fact no matter the temps. Muskies do very well, in fact better than other fish in warm waters, and that it is not necessary to stop angling for muskies in water temps in the 80 degree range.
EXTREME conditions would warrant more concern, but the possibilitiy of mid 90 degree water in the top 1/3 of the water column here in the mid west under most summer conditions is very small.
This information basically supports Sorenson's remarks, and doesn't necessarily contradict what John is saying; extreme conditions require more care, but what we have now on most waters is not extreme.
MuskieFIRST is launching a new feature very soon, one all our users will appreciate, that will add credibility to this sort of discussion.....stay tuned!!! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 216
Location: Belleville, WI | Thanks for bringing us all the great info, Steve. It's nice to hear from real experts on this topic. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 440
| Thanks Mr. Worrall, that is great info. I need to get some rods out of the rack.
Edited by ChadG 7/19/2005 7:06 PM
|
|
| |
|
|
I guess it's up to the individual to make the choice on how to fish, when to fish, and when not to fish.
I tend to be on the cautious side when it comes to fish, be it muskies, trout, or other species that are slow growing, low numbered predators which can suffer from intensive fishing more readily than say bass or walleyes.
I firmly belive that with the explosion in muskie fishing, delayed mortality will have an effect on our future, and try to minimize my impact on fish catching as much as possible.
It is apparent that different biologists have different opinnions. I guess I will choose to follow the advice of the men I know in MN. They've done wonders with our fishery, and I know they want nothing more than to protect it for the future.
I will choose to take the road that minimizes my impact on the fishery, so my kids can have the success that I've enjoyed.
Maybe I'm over-cautious, but I can live with that.
If my previous posts have been a little blunt, and maybe condenscending, I apologize, but I just say what I believe in.
JS |
|
| |
|
| lots of good info getting compiled here,,hopefully the hard copy will have a severe temp zone for pike too has a comparison,,also would like to know some info on Hybrds too has the TC area manages around 18 lakes for stocked tigers |
|
| |
|
| Surface water on Tonka was in the hi 70's (tuesday) after the cool and blow we just had....no worry about the fish........they are in hibernation.
BT |
|
| |
|
Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | Mr Worrall,
Once again you have come through! Thanks for taking the time to go beyond mearly moderating. When I browse across all the various musky sites online, you are a prime reason why I keep coming back to Muskiesfirst as the place to go to know.
I certainly appreciate that everyone will have there own feelings about this issue. Mr. Skarie and others, I really respect your dedication and commitment to preserving the fish, your better safe than sorry position is truely a moral high road on this issue.
I on the other hand, barring extream conditions, will fish. (I don't even know how to get to the high road, the ditch is to deep and I'm to short to see out of it!) Anyway, My gut feeling was as per Mr Worrall's last post.
Finally, to Hooker: It would be very nice if you would name the source lake of the dead 50's that your anonymous source gave you. I don't say this to attract a bunch of people to a 50's lake, but to better understand what type of water this was happening in. Are we talking a shallow dark water body like Indy, a large clear water like WB? Please name the lake.
This has been an awesome topic and timely, keep it coming.
thanks all,
steve |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Does Missori use Leech Lake strain fish or the strain that's in Kentucky? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | I would suspect Missouri muskies to cope better in mid 80's water temps as they are more condition to those temp, were as in MN and WI lake temp usually do not reach these temp to often. LCO was 86 on sunday in 6 years I have not seen temp much over mid 70's. Also the other variable is the dissolve oxygen, mid 80's probably would be okay if you had wind mixing the layers, but with a week+ of flat calm no wind the oxygen content would be more of the concern for a released fish than the water temps. To me it would be like me trying to run 4 mile in the mountains in 90+ temps, I might live, but I would probably never be the same.
Troyz
B420
"The World needs to Smoke a Jackpot"
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The Missouri fish were barred I think, Pennsylvania or New York if I remember. Mr. Neuswanger's papers on that project are on the way here snail mail, with the hopes some of the information there on water temps are germain to this discussion. When they get here I'll confirm. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2089
| I believe some Leech Lakers have been stocked in Hazel Creek.Maybe Mark Boone could help us out on this one. Steve |
|
| |
|
Location: The Yahara Chain | Steve thanks for taking the effort to help clear this issue up.
I see an awful lot of BST's here. The only real expert that had posted (Sorenson) was dismissed by all metro water temp "experts".
Treats the fact that your surface temps went down 5 degrees when it got windy shows me that it wasn't really that hot in the first place.
Just A Thought, if you think Cady and Hulbert aren't fishing I would like some of whatever you are on.
Any muskie that gets caught gets stressed, if you guys are so worried about the fish you should quit fishing for them. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | In all fairness to Treats, I did have a couple of other correspondances w/ him and got a bit more info on the subject. Some of the metro waters may indeed have serious problems, but they are not limited to temperature. Many of these lakes are a bit unique in their properties that may lead to low dissolved oxygen (DO) levels. The temperatures, while exascerbating the problem, are not typically the causative agent in fish (muskie) mortality. The higher temps drive metabolic rates of fish up, thereby creating a need for more oxygen. Most fish can only make use of oxygen in the form of DO in the water and as water warms, it's ability to hold DO diminishes. Instant problem - DO need goes up while the DO availability goes down. Add to that the problem many metro lakes have w/ Eurasion water milfoil - which Treats relayed to me was dying in some spots. Dead and decaying plant material uses a bunch of DO during the decay process (and has no means to replace it via photosynthesis), even further lowering the amount available to fish. So you see, there may indeed be a problem in some of the metro lakes, but don't jump on the hot water bandwagon - it's only a part of the problem. The good news is that it doesn't take much of a weather break to get things back to 'normal'. A good wind can help break up the extreme nature of the stratification that sets up and allows the mixing w/ the cooler water (from the deeper layers) that can hold more DO. It also helps mechanically churn the surface allowing oxygen from the atmosphere to more readily dissolve into the water. Enjoy your resource, I lived in Minnesota long enough to know that if you don't like the weather, stick around for a few minutes, it will change...
K. |
|
| |
|
|
Wind has no effect on waters ability to hold oxygen, it is temperature related only.
On very windy days, the temp can stay the same, DO levels don't go up and down with wind.
The availability of oxygen is not the problem, warmer water can only absorb and hold so much.
Stratification is different on every body of water, even in high winds, thermoclines are quite deep in hot temps, and that cooler water is not mixed well at all with the surface, which is why surface temps are virtually the same from one day to the next if the air temps are high even in windy conditions.
If the availability of oxygen suddenly went down in the air we breath in hot temps, how do you think our bodies would react? How many of you have hiked in the mountains in the heat?
Decaying plant material is a sure sign of low DO levels, and only makes the problem that much worse as decomposition uses oxygen. Weeds are dying up here in my area, as well as algae from the hot temps and sunlight.
It's not rocket science guys, and just because someone from Missouri worked with muskies for awhile doesn't make them the leading authority on muskie physiology.
For anyone here to second guess what biologists like Bob Strand or Rod Ramsell have to say on these issues is pretty weak. Bob Strand is considered on of the top Muskie researchers in the world.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | John,
It is true that the wind has little affect on the water to hold DO, but it does create a situation where there is more surface area to absorb it faster under conditions where it is below saturation. DO is often not at saturation levels throughout many portions of the day due to respiration of aquatic organisms utilizing it faster than reabsorbtion rates.
Wind can and does often partially break extreme stratification - but as you have stated, often thermocline layers are deeper than mechanical mixing effects can reach. Each system is different.
I have hiked in the mountains in the heat. I live there. You would be amazed at how quickly one can adapt.
Believe me, I am not trying to second guess any muskie experts, I just want to caution against painting with too broad of a brush - some systems will suffer no ill effects from angling during higher than normal water temperatures. No, it's not rocket science, but the sky is not falling everywhere it gets hot either.
Kent |
|
| |
|
Posts: 7068
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | "It's not rocket science guys, and just because someone from Missouri worked with muskies for awhile doesn't make them the leading authority on muskie physiology."
Dave Neuswanger
Fisheries Supervisor, Upper Chippewa Basin
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
*actually, that does make him an expert in Muskies physiology.
and being that Kent Sorenson is a professional fisheries biologist, that makes him an expert also.
Beyond being a very concerned muskie fisherman who has done some reading, and has spoken with muskie experts, what are your scientific qualifications?
Passion and enthusiasm for this sport have brought on MANY positive changes for the sport of muskie fishing. Muskies, Inc., the advent of the C&R ethic, the ending of the usage of single hook sucker rigs.....all of these have been propogated and supported by concerned muskie fisherman, to the benefit of all of us. However, there seems to be a rash lately of 'arm chair biologists' in this sport dictating to others what and how they should fish, dictating to even the DNRs of states how they should manage the resource. As well meaning as these feelings are, there is also a serious slant towards dictating to the masses what should and should not be done by all of us. When science does not fully back these beliefs or desires up, that isnt of consequence to the arm chair biologist, because common sense backs up their beliefs. Common sense is not always true in the face of scientific facts, and that IS a fact. We all need to learn more about muskies, not just the catching of them, but many other areas. We need to respect and learn from those PROFESSIONAL BIOLOGISTS who are adding information to the discussions here on MuskieFIRST and elsewhere. We may hear information that runs adverse to our pre-determined beliefs, but to discount the input from these professionals is not only ignorant, but also dangerous. To judge the actions of others, and to try to force policies for or against muskie management, while discounting the scientific input put forth by professionals with training, that is where the danger comes in. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8820
| Come on now, I sense some of you guys are getting a little angry here...
Why are we all here? Because this is an issue that concerns us. If it did not concern us at all we'd say "**** it" and not give it a second thought. We ALL have our own selfish interests at play here. Guys want to fish, guys still want to be able to catch fish down the road, or have their kids catch fish down the road. Admit it guys, every single one of us is here because we want to be able to catch big muskies. "Don't fish when its hot like this so I can catch that fish too..." Selfish f8ckers are we. Nobody claims to have all the answers, some of us don't claim to have ANY of the answers. Instead of bashing each others qualifications, whether real or percieved, lets get back to discussing the real issues. Here they are as I see them:
1. How hot is too hot?
2. Are surface temperatures always reflective of the water column as a whole? i.e. is it sometimes safer to fish with surface temps above 80 and not safe other times
3. If it's strictly related to O2 content, what are the variables other than heat that can affect O2 content
4. Do any of us here know enough about this to make a decison based on ANYTHING other than how we feel about the issue?
Let's let the people who KNOW about this stuff tell us what we need to know.
Jeff
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 132
Location: Elkhart, IN | I can't speak for anyone else. What I have read so far has not changed my mind. I have seen what high water temps do to the fish I catch. Maybe I am really bad at releaseing fish? I know I am better off not fishing right now. Guest has it right. No matter what people say some will not change their minds. I am proof of that.
I am very interested in the info Steve is getting in the mail. You don't know how bad I want to get out and fish. This is worse than Ice on. But, right now I know me not fishing is the best thing I can do for the fishery here right now.
Brian |
|
| |
|
Posts: 132
Location: Elkhart, IN | Excellent post Addict.
Brian |
|
| |
|
| Phoeinix
wont name the lake out of respect to the source,, if you I did people would think the "big fish" bite was on then just the opposite effect of this post would ha[ppen fish would get pounded even more,,All Ill say is its not "dark shallow" water |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Another point:
Wind, especially strong winds similar to what we have had recently in the effected areas, also has an evaporative cooling effect on surface temps which is why surface temps fall in windswept areas even in hot conditions. As the water cools a few degrees, the DO availabily increases. As usual, we are arguing semantics, not facts most of this discussion.
John,
Be careful who you 'attack' here (and please exercise a bit more interpersonal communication care), we draw commentary from qualified scientists across the country and Canada pretty regularly. No one is questioning your dedication or the qualifications of your the two well known fisheries folks you have mentioned; we are simply attempting to reach what might be considered an educated consensus on this issue. Mr. Neuswanger has a stellar reptation as does Frank Pratt as top shelf fisheries folks, and both are extremely well qualified to comment on this subject. I am headed out this fall to fish Sorenson's Utah Hybrids, and I'm very much looking forward to sticking a big Tiger in his managed waters!!
As I stated, what has been said here doesn't necessarily contradict your statements, it goes more to qualifying the degreee of concern warranted in each situation. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ben
Perhaps you missed the statement that the survival rate under heavy summer hot weather angling on the systems in Missouri is one of the highest documented. We're again looking at two different situations, two different waters, and markedly different temps than we are talking here in Wisconsin and Minnesota, for much longer sustained periods of time. The temps here on our local waters are down considerably, and falling today as well with clouds, wind, and rain. |
|
| |
|
|
Since it was asked, I'll reply.
I have a BS in Aquatic Biology from Bemidji State University, 1993. I worked for the MNDNR in Bemidji and Walker.
My work primarily was done on muskie waters, Leech, Little Boy, Wabedo, Cass,Elk, Plant, etc.
I was (and still am occasionaly as a volunteer) involved in egg collecting, population assesments (electrofishin and spring netting) , and growth studies with muskies.
I also did a lot of work mapping lake vegetation, and doing temp. D/O profiles on many lakes in the Walker area.
Currently I am self-empoyed. I have a greenhouse where I raise hydroponic tomatoes, and I work for county, state and private interests Delineating Wetlands.
So I do have some training and first hand knowledge when it comes to muskies, and aquatic ecosystems in general.
At any rate, in my work history, I've never met anyone who has as much hands on and research experience as Bob Stand has in regards to muskies. He has worked all over MN and in Canada for decades specializing in muskie management and research.
In my mind, the 1st and last word on muskies comes from Bob and Rod, and others in MN who have made our state into a muskie mecca through years of hard work and understanding of these great fish.
So with that I will leave this conversation. It's getting pretty obvious that some people don't want to believe what is being said, and won't change their minds no matter what they are told, or who is telling it.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8820
| BenR - 7/20/2005 12:31 PM
... They clearly have the same problem as IL does if you look at from a layman's view. Their lakes do not put out 50 inch fish. They tend to top out at mid- to high- 40's. ...Ben
I have to believe this isn't the only factor involved, though. Look at the #'s of 50" fish MN is putting out these days with just a handful of musky lakes compared to the #'s WI is putting out with hundreds of musky lakes.
Structure plays a role, forage base plays a role, the strain of fish plays a role, and I'm sure angling pressure plays a role as well, but look at some of the Metro lakes that are turning out 50 after 50 -- you can't tell me there isn't a sh*tpile of guys pounding those waters to a froth day after day.
Obviously the shoepac vs leech strain vs etc. conversation shouldn't be had here, but lets not forget there is more than one factor in determining how big a musky will grow.
Jeff |
|
| |
|
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | where ya been addict .... sconnie is on fire ....
|
|
| |
|
| EA
there are lakes declining in the metro,, not all but some are not what they were 5 yrs ago,,they show the numbers but not the average size they once did,,Bald Eagle, Eagle,and harriet are examples,,the lakes seem to go in spurts a lake will peak for a while then the word gets out and it gets pounded to pieces and it falls off for a few years,,people dont use the tiger lakes or very few do,,Im thinking we should ask the DNR to convert half the tiger lakes to purestrain to help ease all the pressure |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32919
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | John,
The fact Mr. Strand is a top shelf muskie management expert has not been challenged, and I might point out he hasn't posted here. Same goes for Rod Ramsell, who I feel is one of the best out there. The point many are attempting to make which you seem to be unwilling or unable to observe, is that there is a wide range of systems out there across Wisconsin and Minnesota and the effects of a warm weather period like we've experienced is different on each system type; taking it even further there are circumstances on cetain lakes that 'add to' the temperature problem. There was and IMHO still is a tendency to overstate the impact on the muskies, and the desire here is to reach a general consensus on whatever fact we can gather from experts in this field of science.
' It's getting pretty obvious that some people don't want to believe what is being said, and won't change their minds no matter what they are told, or who is telling it.'
Loosely translated, I assume you are disappointed that what you posted isn't 'the last word'. Many times I have found that 'what they are told, or who is telling it' is taken out of context, applied to the debate as an absolute when in fact the commentary was in response to a similar, but not completely applicable question, or used in debate to attempt to prove an unrelated point. As a result, I have the tendency to pick up the telephone and make a few calls to try to obtain enough information to confirm or question what has been presented in the interest of accuracy. There are many very sharp scientific minds working in the fisheries field, and many of those working with Muskies. Forgive me for getting more than one point of view, but journalistic protocol demands that at least three concurring points of view DIRECTLY FROM THE EXPERT SOURCE be presented before even thinking about publishing something as absolute concrete fact.
No animosity from this desk, just questions and answers, related as accurately as possible.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8820
| Sled,
On fire is right!
I baked in the sun for three days up on Namekagon. Did not even SEE a fish.
Next weekend is Petenwell, which I've never fished before. Maybe try Pewaukee and/or Okauchee in the fall, hit the Madison Chain a few more times when it cools off, and then I think November might just push me down to Webster.
I had a great early season, but it's been slow for about a month.
Jeff
|
|
| |
|
|
I know I said I was out of this convo, but one last statement.
My comment about people not wanting to believe what they are hearing has nothing to do with my saying or thinking it.
It doesn't matter what the issue is, vertical holds, hot water, kill rigs, judge boats, etc.
Many fishermen will do anything they can to not believe people who say these things are harmful to the fishery. In many cases it's because they don't want to change the way they fish. Or they don't want to believe what they are doing could be harmful to the fishery.
It's much like global warming. People who don't want to change how they live, or be more conservative in thier lifestyle will not believe what they are doing is harmful, no matter who says it is.
I have Bob Strand's home # if anyone wants to call him.
Rod Ramsells thoughts on this subject have been published in Esox Anlger.
For anyone who wants to read his comments first hand, look there.
JS |
|
| |
|
| Shouldn't we dare to ask the questions? Shouldn't we attempt to get all the answers? Isn't that education at work?
The question was asked so answers can be found. Good thread!
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | addict .... the extended high pressure i think has made typical pattern fishing difficult at best at least around here but the deeper water pattern is working for alot of people. i'm at a huge disadvantage because i just was not a suspended fish player in the past, so i'm trying hard to adjust to the 10 - 25' presentation program. it's been fun buying more baits and challenging the old brain again.
be interesting to hear why people think so many more big fish are being caught this year. temps. & system response, more reporting and information via interenet etc..., or BST as jlong and cady so elequently put it, it's so hot out that people are doing like me and changing tactics to deeper water where those fish have always lived under less pressure? i tend to believe the last comment in that string.
|
|
| |
