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Posts: 24
| I have never gotten a good answer to this question.
Does anyone have or know of a location to get dive curve info for Musky Baits ?
I know that there are a ton of factor that influence the dive curves but there must be something out there to use as a starting point.
Troller's Throw me a bone here.
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Posts: 393
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | There's nothing out there that I'm aware of. The data (for walleye baits) is difficult to measure and collect. Your best bet is rent some scuba gear and test it yourself. Not tryin' to be a smart a** btw. |
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| It's amazing how many times this question is asked when the answer is so simple! When trolling, the best way to find out how deep any bait runs with the equipment that you're using, is to find out how much line that you need to let out to get that bait deep enough to touch the lake bottom. Check at different depth levels. Write down the info for future reference. |
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| There is a way to do it, and it requires a Protractor and some trigonometry.
Basically it is as follows:
First, Put out a desired length of line. As you are trolling along, measure as accurately as you can the angle between a vertical line (attatched to the end of your rod) and the line to the bait. It must be an angle less than 90 degrees.
Second, with the lenght of line you have out and the angle, take a calculator and calculate the following:
Cos (your angle) x length of line. This will give you the running depth of your lure from the tip of your rod. Find the approximate distance the rod tip is from the water and subtract that from your calculation. This will give you the running depth of the lure from the water's surface
Couple of things to consider here. The most accurate will be when you are using superbraids or wire (which I am expecting you are). If you use monofilament, this will not work as well since mono has a tendency to stretch a bit, thust making your line length longer, and throwing off your calculations.
Also, there will be a limiting value going on. At some point in time, the bait will get to a specific depth due to bouyancy. You will see this when you start to get the same value over and over in your calculations. The angle will get larger, and your line length will be longer, but no change (or very little change) in your vertical distance to the lure.
further, you must consider the speed of the boat and the line diameter. Higher diameter lines will force the bait upward as will speed. The slower the speed, the more the lure can dive.
Lots going on, but a fun project to do nonetheless...
Steve |
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| Oh..by the way...make sure if you do this that your calculator is in degree mode. It's amazing how many times I have to remind my students to make sure of what mode they are using. If you are in Radian mode, your numbers will be totally inaccurate.
Steve |
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Posts: 459
Location: New Baden IL | HUH? |
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Posts: 466
Location: Pittsburgh, PA | so your rod is perfectly horizontal and youre holding the protractor perpendicular to your rod tip right? |
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| the rod doesn't necessarily have to be horizontal. If you can picture it, you would attatch some sort of line/rope to the tip of your rod (with a weight on it to keep the rope taught and as vertical as possible) Take the protractor and hold the flat side along the rope, with the center of flat side (usually a line drawn along flat line and to the 90 degree) at the tip. then find the degree measure from there.
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Posts: 393
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | Same principal applies when calculating the depth a cannonball is at with a downrigger. Simple geometry - difficult to accurately measure the angle, but does give you a rough idea of depth. |
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Posts: 379
Location: Thief River Falls MN | VMS is partially correct. You have to take the bowing of the line into consideration also. The line does not travel in a straight line from rod tip to lure. This will affect your depth depending on your speed , line diameter, amount of line out, etc. Read Precision Trolling (I know its for smaller stuff, but it is pretty informative) and it will explain all of it. Best bet is to find a clean bottom lake with a slow tapering bottom and experiment for yourself.
later,
toddb |
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| VMS Unlogged - 12/6/2004 6:47 PM
There is a way to do it, and it requires a Protractor and some trigonometry.
Basically it is as follows:
First, Put out a desired length of line. As you are trolling along, measure as accurately as you can the angle between a vertical line (attatched to the end of your rod) and the line to the bait. It must be an angle less than 90 degrees.
Second, with the lenght of line you have out and the angle, take a calculator and calculate the following:
Cos (your angle) x length of line. This will give you the running depth of your lure from the tip of your rod. Find the approximate distance the rod tip is from the water and subtract that from your calculation. This will give you the running depth of the lure from the water's surface
Couple of things to consider here. The most accurate will be when you are using superbraids or wire (which I am expecting you are). If you use monofilament, this will not work as well since mono has a tendency to stretch a bit, thust making your line length longer, and throwing off your calculations.
Also, there will be a limiting value going on. At some point in time, the bait will get to a specific depth due to bouyancy. You will see this when you start to get the same value over and over in your calculations. The angle will get larger, and your line length will be longer, but no change (or very little change) in your vertical distance to the lure.
further, you must consider the speed of the boat and the line diameter. Higher diameter lines will force the bait upward as will speed. The slower the speed, the more the lure can dive.
Lots going on, but a fun project to do nonetheless...
Steve
Not to discourage science but this is way too complicated. Dive curve probably needs to be established bait by bait with same rod and line. Stiff and soft rods have varying effects on actions of baits and thus diving. Mono is just as easy as superlines to chart but has different effect than superlines. Temperature of water definitely effects mono, not much effect on superlines.
Slower does not mean maximum dive neccessarily, the rate of dive and maintainence of the same is related to water capture by the lip and profile of the lure. At high speeds, besides the line adding up force, water capture can decline due to the physics of imbalance which most lure actions depend on, causing less dive. Very slow speeds can cause a lack of water capture and less dive.
The best way is find some other poor sucker with too much time on his or her hands, that has already charted all this and hope that your bait is within the normal range for each particular model charted. |
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Posts: 393
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | Agreed!, but a wet suit and tanks would be so much more fun. Could you imagine seeing a big 'skie hit one of those baits you're watching for depth - Woohoo! |
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| I will agree there will be a certain amount of bowing in the line, but it will be negligible. In order for the lure to dive, the line must be taught. Hence, by eliminating this factor, you will be within 5 inches or so of the theoretical running depth, and within probably 2-3 inches of the actual running depth of the lure at any given time. |
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| Dive curve probably needs to be established bait by bait with same rod and line. Stiff and soft rods have varying effects on actions of baits and thus diving. Mono is just as easy as superlines to chart but has different effect than superlines. Temperature of water definitely effects mono, not much effect on superlines
Couple of things here..
I'd expect that the person would be estabilishing the curve with the same rod and line (or matched combo). Also, the stiff and soft rods will not affect the baits when the line is out...it affects what YOU feel at the rod. A softer tip will allow the bait to go down a little bit further than a stiff rod would based upon the bend in the rod but the bait will still track and have the same wiggle given they are using the same line on both rods. I would assume (I AM assuming here) that this would be for trolling purposes since casting has it's own effects on how deep a bait could dive and how long it would be at the deepest running level.
Lastly, you are right that temp will effect mono and it's stretching tendencies, but...how can that be considered just as easy then? If mono stretches differently at different temps, that adds a whole different set of issues. |
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Posts: 10
| Actually the line will tend to be near the surface due to drag and will be pulled down by the dive characteristics of any particualr lure.
Looking at precision trolling books, I'd venture to guess that a simple logrithim based on the co efficent of line drag in water and the measured force of a lure at a particular trolling speed is more likely to be closer.
But I think it would be easier to run lures at different depths and touch bottom and more fun. |
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Posts: 107
Location: milwaukee | I think the trig solution would be easier and more fun....but that's the techno-geek in me coming out. I could envision a planer board style device to give a direct reading of the angle.
Techno-wierd, but how 'bout this: A micro-electronic pressure sensor and data logger built into the lure body in question. Pressure exerted on the sensor is directly proportional to depth. Reel in and upload to your computer and plot a dive curve. Can you say $500 crankbait? Certainly not practical right now, but who knows? 5-10 years from now we won't need to have this discussion because someone will be marketing an inexpensive one.  |
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Posts: 2361
| VMS Unlogged - 12/8/2004 1:54 PM
Dive curve probably needs to be established bait by bait with same rod and line. Stiff and soft rods have varying effects on actions of baits and thus diving. Mono is just as easy as superlines to chart but has different effect than superlines. Temperature of water definitely effects mono, not much effect on superlines
Couple of things here..
I'd expect that the person would be estabilishing the curve with the same rod and line (or matched combo). Also, the stiff and soft rods will not affect the baits when the line is out...it affects what YOU feel at the rod. A softer tip will allow the bait to go down a little bit further than a stiff rod would based upon the bend in the rod but the bait will still track and have the same wiggle given they are using the same line on both rods. I would assume (I AM assuming here) that this would be for trolling purposes since casting has it's own effects on how deep a bait could dive and how long it would be at the deepest running level.
Lastly, you are right that temp will effect mono and it's stretching tendencies, but...how can that be considered just as easy then? If mono stretches differently at different temps, that adds a whole different set of issues.
Don't agree at all. Stiff rods and no stretch lines with trolling lures definitely have different effects than soft rods, due to the energy absorption-loading and unloading of the softer rods vs. the no give rods. It can and does make a difference both on top speed of the bait(before blowing out) and diving. Long lines and soft lines negate some of this difference but nonetheless it exists.
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mark Romanack was working on a Muskie crank bait book, I'll check with him and see if he went anywhere with the concept. he has done a series of Walleye Crankbiat books that are trolling 'bibles' for many 'eye anglers out there.
Here's a link to his site and the work he has done to date.
http://www.precisionangling.com/ |
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Dive Curves